Unsolved mystery: Keppler and the Wested/Martin Grace link

[Texan Scott]

The jacket photo is a dead on representation of the jacket I received the first time.

As to why the change, even with the knowledge we have today, Holt's and others tirelessly lending specs., these jackets are STILL made differently, most each and every one. Sliding the pocket straps down and affixing them in a different location is certainly within the relm of possibility. IF someone asked for the straps to be placed at a certain spot, IF he thought he saw them placed there in the movie, it could have been done for the customer. The maker deems it 'authoritiative' and from then on, it is done that way. Technicians could have changed. He could have woke up one day and just decided to do that...and 100 more reasons we could only guess....?

Theory, but the 10 jackets of the second order had 'minor variations', even 'variations between the 10 themselves', and yet none were exact duplicates of the Hero jacket. Undoubtedly, these jackets were not used by the main character, nor possibly used at all. (so there were basically 5 jackets used in Raiders, six if you count the mock-up: the Cooper Hero, the Wested/LC Hero, and the three jackets made for the stunt doubles of the 3rd order).
Pocket placement and strap placement could be considered minor variations. Maybe of the 10 jackets of the 2nd order, one or a few of these jackets was floating around? I would be interested to know what became of them during/after Raiders and before ToD? Of those that were found, they were obviously destroyed just before ToD.

It is my understanding that the photo'ed jacket in question is a representation of the 'old style' jacket...especially the straps, that existed before the more modern design of today: pockets being placed closer to the storm flap, narrower storm flap and straps moved closer to the seam, instead of almost inside the hand warmer pockets. The 'old style' pre-dates all.

Lee would have had no idea of what Peter did, nor why the switch.

[RCSignals]

Would that be the jacket known as the 'Kurtz' jacket you are referring to?

no I think he is refering to this 'raiders' jacket.

Correct - I was referring to the jacket on the right.

I would also be curious to hear if anyone has been able to match the Kurtz jacket up on screen.

Having met or spoken to many people involved with the IJ films (including Vic Armstrong and Terry Leonard - both of whom say they have no jacket), the only jacket I've ever come across that is 100% authentic is the one formerly held by Noel Howard, that has been seen photographed on this board extensively.

Regards
Brandon

From what I understand the Kurtz jacket is now owned by Paul Allen

The jacket on the right mostly resembles a Wested/Leather Concessionaires jacket from the late 80's early 90's.
It doesn't resemble any jacket on screen.

[RCSignals]

Is this the LC jacket you sent to Peter according to the new write up on the website? You got this jacket back, correct?? Sorry to talk about the LC jacket I am just wondering from Lee where this jacket is, it sounds like you currently have it.

IndianaChris

The jacket is hanging in my closet. It is the one I sent to Peter in 1987. It was made by Flight Suits. The last one made after the "misunderstanding". The two in the Lucasfilm archives were sold to the same person in 1986. One had snaps on the stormflap, the other did not. I hope this is clear, as I'm ready to crash now. I'm in Las Vegas for the gun show and have to get up at five.

Lee was your jacket used as a sample to make the LC made of goatskin or Cowhide?

This is what Lee said about his Archive Jacket in 2008

My original jackets by FS was goatskin, non-distressed. The last one FS made for me as we thought FS was being sold(The deal fell through! The original good guys still own the company) was horsehide. The wear you see came from use. If I haden't "expanded" I'd still be wearing it. The lining was satin as in the back cover of "Stars" picture, which is where the gussets were copied from. If memory serves correctly (Probably not!) around 100 were turned out, which includes one with snaps on the wind flap.

Correct for his original. I don't believe his original was the same as that used for the LC prototype. Which is why my question to Lee

[CM]

The question Lee was repsonding to was about the Lucasfilm archive jacket which was used to make both the LC and the CS jackets. What I didn't get from Lee's answer is if the archive jacket was the original goat version or the later horse. _ has speculated that one of the LC jackets may have been horse and made by FS. I think I'm right about that.

[RCSignals]

.
Having met or spoken to many people involved with the IJ films (including Vic Armstrong and Terry Leonard - both of whom say they have no jacket), the only jacket I've ever come across that is 100% authentic is the one formerly held by Noel Howard, that has been seen photographed on this board extensively.

Regards
Brandon

I am aware Terry Leonard says he did not keep his jacket, he turned it in to wardrobe at the end of production.

I'm assuming you are not aware of the jacket Tony Nowak was sent when you state "the only jacket I've ever come across that is 100% authentic" unless this is a point you are leading to.
If so this topic has been discussed here to death.
Tony knew who sent him the jacket, it's provenance, and was more than satisfied with it's authenticity. He never claimed it to be of Martin Grace or from Martin Grace, or from any of the other possibilities that have been speculated here.

There were no photos of it shared. That doesn't sit well with some people.

[RCSignals]

The question Lee was repsonding to was about the Lucasfilm archive jacket which was used to make both the LC and the CS jackets. What I didn't get from Lee's answer is if the archive jacket was the original goat version or the later horse. _ has speculated that one of the LC jackets may have been horse and made by FS. I think I'm right about that.

I thought there was some question if it was Cowhide, not Horse, but either way the question still stands

[RCSignals]

I would say that it was Lee and his VHS copy of Raiders that got the strap config. right, and other details for that matter, and that the reproduction jackets are the reflections of man who sought to nail the specs. The "patterns" was the FS jacket used as a template.

are you speaking about the Last Crusade jacket?

[Texan Scott]

Post Raiders. Those he made in conjunction with FS....as apparently this Lee/FS jacket became the proto for the LC jacket.

[RCSignals]

Post Raiders. Those he made in conjunction with FS.

I don't think Peter used Lee's jacket for anything but the Last Crusade jacket.

Lee's own jackets don't seem to look like the blue Label.

[Texan Scott]

Lee tried to remain faithful to the Raiders jacket and reproduce it. The BL sure looks alot like an aftermarket wested...?

[CM]

The question Lee was repsonding to was about the Lucasfilm archive jacket which was used to make both the LC and the CS jackets. What I didn't get from Lee's answer is if the archive jacket was the original goat version or the later horse. _ has speculated that one of the LC jackets may have been horse and made by FS. I think I'm right about that.

I thought there was some question if it was Cowhide, not Horse, but either way the question still stands

Sorry RC... what question still stands? Lee has already stated that his jackets were goat and horse, not cow. Or are you referring to a different jacket? heck, we've spoken about so many jackets here I'm giddy.

[knibs7]

Me too, giddy as a school boy

Kyle

[RCSignals]

The question Lee was repsonding to was about the Lucasfilm archive jacket which was used to make both the LC and the CS jackets. What I didn't get from Lee's answer is if the archive jacket was the original goat version or the later horse. _ has speculated that one of the LC jackets may have been horse and made by FS. I think I'm right about that.

I thought there was some question if it was Cowhide, not Horse, but either way the question still stands

Sorry RC... what question still stands? Lee has already stated that his jackets were goat and horse, not cow. Or are you referring to a different jacket? heck, we've spoken about so many jackets here I'm giddy.

The question for Lee on the jackets he sold to LFL, and were used as the basis for the Last Crusade jacket.
Whether what hide they were made from. There was some question if they were Cowhide.

Where did Lee post they were Horse? I must have missed it.

He only said this of his last one

The last one FS made for me as we thought FS was being sold(The deal fell through! The original good guys still own the company) was horsehide

[RCSignals]

.......... The BL sure looks alot like an aftermarket wested...?

But apparently isn't, and predates the Wested's of those patterns it seems?

that's still the mystery of it

[Texan Scott]

Post Raiders. Those he made in conjunction with FS.

I don't think Peter used Lee's jacket for anything but the Last Crusade jacket.

Lee's own jackets don't seem to look like the blue Label.

I just meant that if LC/Wested had a Lee/FS jacket in 1987 to use as a template, to 'refresh memory' look at, copy, etc., he would have had a better perspective of the 'true' film jacket, and could have produced more accurate copies through his own company, pre-1990's. Whether or not it came to fruition is another matter.

The LC jacket is a modified Raiders jacket, with..."wider zipper flap, proper larger collar, lighter “chocolate” palate [color], substantial [leather/material], comfort cut and lining, larger pockets." Tracing the lineage back through Lee/FS and originally the WC mock-up.

[Texan Scott]

Yes, the 'old style' would have pre-dated the after-market Westeds and all. Was this not the 'original pattern'...later, the straps and pockets were moved and storm flap was narrowed due to functionality, etc?

[Indydawg]

Or.....OR....(wait for it...)

(Aside: Man, I have been watching too my "How I Met Your Mother.")

Neil Cooper made the original jacket patterns...bottom line...and his original pattern is STILL the same....and what was used to make the Blue Label jacket, was what Wested used to make their late 90s jackets...AND what they used in Raiders...AND Temple of Doom....

BUT when they went to actually get the jackets ready for film....you ready? Here it comes....

Then, the "slight variations" (ie moving the straps up, shortening the collar, narrowing the storm flap, etc...) were made to the original Cooper jackets to suit the film makers' tastes at the time with little to NO thought about how all this was going to play out OR the levels of obsession with which future generations of film fans would pursue the elusive ghost of the "original" jacket!

Which came first, folks....the chicken or the egg?

How's that for a scenario?

Indydawg

[crismans]

Or.....OR....(wait for it...)

(Aside: Man, I have been watching too my "How I Met Your Mother.")

Neil Cooper made the original jacket patterns...bottom line...and his original pattern is STILL the same....and what was used to make the Blue Label jacket, was what Wested used to make their late 90s jackets...AND what they used in Raiders...AND Temple of Doom....

BUT when they went to actually get the jackets ready for film....you ready? Here it comes....

Then, the "slight variations" (ie moving the straps up, shortening the collar, narrowing the storm flap, etc...) were made to the original Cooper jackets to suit the film makers' tastes at the time with little to NO thought about how all this was going to play out OR the levels of obsession with which future generations of film fans would pursue the elusive ghost of the "original" jacket!

Which came first, folks....the chicken or the egg?

How's that for a scenario?

Indydawg

I've actually had the scenario in my head (although I've not thought it completely through to shoot it full of holes) that we never actually saw what has come to be affectionately known as the PoS jacket. Maybe the BW dock still and, perhaps, the jacket used for the filming of the dock scenes was the Cooper jacket (with the straps going into the pocket seam). Then, as more jackets are produced, we get the "slight variations" scenario that you put forth above.

To my mind, this explains some things on how the "straps going into the pockets" configuration is the original Cooper pattern as we've been told.

But then it throws my whole "jacket chronology" into chaos.

[Indydawg]

Chaos, hm?

Well....a little organized chaos never hurt anybody

Regards!
Indydawg

[RCSignals]

Or.....OR....(wait for it...)

(Aside: Man, I have been watching too my "How I Met Your Mother.")

Neil Cooper made the original jacket patterns...bottom line...and his original pattern is STILL the same....and what was used to make the Blue Label jacket, was what Wested used to make their late 90s jackets...AND what they used in Raiders...AND Temple of Doom....

BUT when they went to actually get the jackets ready for film....you ready? Here it comes....

Then, the "slight variations" (ie moving the straps up, shortening the collar, narrowing the storm flap, etc...) were made to the original Cooper jackets to suit the film makers' tastes at the time with little to NO thought about how all this was going to play out OR the levels of obsession with which future generations of film fans would pursue the elusive ghost of the "original" jacket!

Which came first, folks....the chicken or the egg?

How's that for a scenario?

Indydawg

Very 'how I met your mother'

I go back to what I originally said, the BL was an early prototype submission for Raiders, but not the selected jacket. Kept though on hand as a potential 'stunt use' expendable but not used.
If we follow _'s assertion that Cooper made the actual 'Hero' seen on screen based on teh Western costumes mock up we still have a Cooper made jacket, but a different jacket from the 'Blue Label'.

[Indydawg]

True....but even so...made by Neil Cooper.