Unsolved mystery: Keppler and the Wested/Martin Grace link

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:26 am

Michaelson wrote: As to the Wested, there was no pattern 'found in the barn'. What was supposedly found was an unfinished jacket for Raiders that was never delivered to set (according to Peter) and was found in a pile of old unfinished jobs when they moved from their Ordinance St. address to the Little Wested location. That's what he said he used when he sourced the new Italian lambskin color.

Really? Michaelson, thanks for this bit of information. It's pretty crucial for this topcic.

Just surmising here, apart from sourcing the lambskin color, it probably means that the jacket Peter found had those same strap and stitching specs he included on those 90s Westeds. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that Peter "reverted" to these patterns with this early Westeds rather than going with the Keppler/Lost Crusade specs, believing them to be bona fide Raiders specs.

Now, what jacket was it? At what point in production had it been made? Was it based on the early Cooper (vis a vis Hack) design? Food for thought. Very interesting indeed. Thanks again, Michaelson!

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:06 pm

Sebas there is a lot to speculate on. Was it an unfinished jacket from Raiders? was it an unfinished jacket from later? was it like the '90s jacket? where in the movie do we see a jacket with strap details etc like the '90s jacket? and your favourite still, why is Sgt Hack's jacket so similar to a '90s Wested?

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:18 pm

That, and the fact that we never knew just how 'unfinished' the 'found' Raiders Wested really was. It could have been a single sleeve and pocket for all we know. It was used specificially to match color for his then newly discovered Italian tannery, so I have no clue if there was even enough jacket there to pattern anything from. It was never discussed, and no photos were ever posted of the item either.

Regards! Michaelson

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:45 pm

Lee Keppler wrote: Just for the record, this Leather Concessionaires jacket is after the Bellhop Jacket. My last, personal jacket was sent to Peter to "Jog the memory". I did get the jacket back, and there is a picture of it on what is left of my website.I wanted an inside pocket like the one on the back cover of the coffee table book, "Stars", a slim leather facing, but the FS jacket jogged the memory too well, and I got the triangular one that FS started doing after two jacket. This Jacket dates from 1987 and is owned by Steven Manley.

Is this the LC jacket you sent to Peter according to the new write up on the website? You got this jacket back, correct?? Sorry to talk about the LC jacket I am just wondering from Lee where this jacket is, it sounds like you currently have it.

IndianaChris

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:49 pm

I believe Lee means what is left of his website, NOT the jacket.

Regards! Michaelson

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:13 pm

Michaelson wrote:I believe Lee means what is left of his website, NOT the jacket.

Regards! Michaelson

Oops

I guess that what happens when you stare at the computer too long. You get kind of like zombie eyes.

I corrected myself. Thanks Michaelson. I guess that means I need a break.

IndianaChris

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:15 pm

The jacket Lee is talking about on his web site is the duplicate of the jacket _ examined, which Lee had flightsuits make. That's where the 'Expedition' name came from too.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 pm

Hopefully Dave (Dr. Ulloa) won't mind if I post a pic he took of the back of his Blue Label.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:59 pm

Wow, thanks for finding that Crisman

other than the strap attachment the back looks a lot like a current day USWings indy jacket.
Low yoke, lower panel spaced away from shoulder seam and not too tapered.

I can only assume it is an accurate copy of the back of the original pictured earlier in the thread.

Lee Keppler · Post by **Lee Keppler** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:26 am

Is this the LC jacket you sent to Peter according to the new write up on the website? You got this jacket back, correct?? Sorry to talk about the LC jacket I am just wondering from Lee where this jacket is, it sounds like you currently have it.

IndianaChris

The jacket is hanging in my closet. It is the one I sent to Peter in 1987. It was made by Flight Suits. The last one made after the "misunderstanding". The two in the Lucasfilm archives were sold to the same person in 1986. One had snaps on the stormflap, the other did not. I hope this is clear, as I'm ready to crash now. I'm in Las Vegas for the gun show and have to get up at five.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:11 pm

Ok...I'm busy playing catchup here...should I even bother asking what this "blue label" jacket is, who makes it, and its history or should I just go digging?

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:16 pm

Please disregard my ignorance....I feel so far out in left field

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:48 pm

Indydawg wrote:Ok...I'm busy playing catchup here...should I even bother asking what this "blue label" jacket is, who makes it, and its history or should I just go digging?

the 'blue label' was a special offering by US Wings, no longer available. It was a copy of the 'Raiders' jacket given to Sgt Hack by Neil Cooper. Reportedly an 'unused' stunt jacket left over at the end of filming. That's about all that is known about it. The jackets details have raised a lot of discussion.

Maybe Wings new line will also be called 'Blue Label'. Just a guess. to confuse you even more there is a 'Black label' of special A-2 and G-1 jackets.....

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:07 pm

Well, here's what I'll offer to muddy the waters even more.

In looking at the front pic of the "Hack jacket," looking at the front strap attachment placing (bottom of the cargo pocket, all the way to the handwarmer pocket opening), and then seeing the pic of the BACK of the US Wings Blue Label (with the straps being sewn INTO the back panel, and not stitched to the OUTSIDE of it), I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that that configuration neither matches ANY other put out by US Wings, NOR does it match anything that Wested has done since the very late 1990's.

WAAAAYYYYY back when I first got into this, I got a Wested, distressed cowhide, Last Crusade jacket from Michaelson....a BEAUTIFUL jacket....the leather was a dark brown with reddish tones....the grain was simply fabulous!! That was my first Wested....and it had the SAME strap configuration as this Blue Label Wings jacket....something that I've had to SPECIFICALLY DEMAND that Wested do on every other jacket I've had made from them since...and which, only about half the time, did they actually do.

I cannot tell you guys how many times I have kicked myself in the tail for what I did to that jacket....

To make a very long story short, I thought the collar was a "bit" too long...took it to a leather shop to have some length taken off...and after it was all said and done, I had a very nice...cafe racer looking collar...

Why, oh WHY couldn't I have just left well-enough alone?!

anyway....I say all this to say, and I know I'm really muddying the water here....but that configuration is, what I believe, to be correct for Last Crusade...

And since that jacket is the holy grail of Indy jackets for ME....that's the one I've been trying to nail down ever since....

Ok....now that I've confused everyone....

Later!
Indydawg

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:15 pm

Well you may be the first to relate that particular jacket to Last Crusade.
A few people have said it reminds them of a '90s Wested, but it does seem not all '90s Wested's had that exact strap configuration. Maybe you are the 'missing link' reason that some do.

Still doesn't explain Sgt Hack's jacket though, which apparently is not a '90s Wested (or a pre-90's Wested) and pre-dates that '90's time period

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:23 pm

Excellent point....

One thing that Michaelson and I always thought was that the Wings jackets' standard strap placement (what you get if you just order a "regular" Wings Indy jacket) was pretty darn close to the screen-accurate placement and configuration for Last Crusade....as well as the action pleat depth and larger top back yoke.

That essentially, the Wings jacket was a pretty decent Last Crusade look-alike...not an exact copy by any means...it lacked some of the precise nuances...but close enough for most people who wanted an Indiana Jones jacket...

So, some things aren't gelling here.....How did a jacket that Neil gave Sarge look like a jacket Wested was doing in the 90s, but that it appears now is nowhere near "screen accurate," especially where it comes down to the subtleties of strap placement and the like?

In other words....which jacket is "more" accurate? Perhaps that is FAR too subjective a concept....beauty IS in the eye of the beholder and all that....

Food for thought...back to grading projects..

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:48 am

anyway....I say all this to say, and I know I'm really muddying the water here....but that configuration is, what I believe, to be correct for Last Crusade...

I realize that I'm probably just being dense here, but are you saying that the strap configuration on the Blue Label is the same for the Last Crusade jackets?

Because it seems to me that the strap configuration on the LC jacket is the same as what we see on the other Indy jackets (with the possible exception of the Bantu Wind jacket) in that the anchor point for the strap is on the back panel, not sewn into the seam between the back and side panels.

But, I freely admit that it's late and I'm probably just missing the boat.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:47 am

Hi, crismans...

Well...yes and no.

I'm saying that the Blue Label Wings jackets' strap placement, and the strap placement on the Hack jacket, appears identical to the Last Crusade jackets that Wested made and sold in the 90s....mine were done exactly like that, every jacket I bought (probably 5-6, trying to get the leather and everything just right) between 1998 and 2000....AFTER 2000, Peter changed it as a response to demand that he do the Raiders jacket straps "correctly." Well, he didn't just change the Raiders jackets...he changed every style....

From what I've seen of screen shots from the movie, however....the Last Crusade jacket's strap placement is identical to what you get on a STANDARD Wings jacket....placed about the same distance from the bottom hem, and single stitch attachment on TOP of the back panel and the front/pocket seam....

The Blue Label strap placement is DEAD on for what Wested USED to do with the LC jacket....

The standard Wings jacket is DEAD on for a screen accurate LC look....

My question is....which is "more" accurate??? The Hack/Blue label jacket config or what was done with the "on screen" jacket....

Or is it simply a matter of point-of-view and all my ramblings are irrelevant?

Either way....I'd still like to know WHERE that jacket that Sgt. Hack has, that Neil Cooper gave him (and yes, I take the man at his word) came from...if it was one of the original Raiders made jackets.....and Leather Concessionaires did it...or if Neil did it....and if it was correct to the Western Costumiers pattern....if SO....then it seems to me that the 90s Wested LC strap configuration (sewn IN to the back panel and attached at the handwarmer) MIGHT be "perceptually" considered "more accurate."

As Obi-Wan himself said...."from a certain point-of-view."

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:00 pm

If you don't match the jacket Sgt Hack has to the jackets seen in Raiders, maybe.
There has been a lot of different speculation about the jacket.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:43 pm

Nope...not trying to argue the "screen used" angle...just thinking that the old Wested strap config MIGHT be JUST as "accurate" as what they do now...and what every Indy jacket(save this Blue Label Wings) does...

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:46 pm

Which would make the Wings Blue Label as equal a contender for a
"historically" accurate jacket as any other..

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:46 pm

Which would make the Wings Blue Label as equal a contender for a
"historically" accurate jacket as any other..

Sorry, I'm still not following. Historically accurate as to what?

Maybe it's a matter of terminology. To me, accurate, in this case, refers to how well the jacket recreates the details we can make out on screen. Using this defintion, a jacket recreates an inaccurate copy isn't really accurate.

Let me sit down as I've made myself dizzy.

In this case, the Blue Label is only accurate in how it does have several elements of the Bantu Wind jacket (strap attachment points, low yoke, etc.). Like RC has said, there has been much speculation as to the look of the Blue Label in regards to the BW and early 90s offerings but no theory has been proven the most likely scenario as of yet.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:50 pm

I mean in the literal sense of the term "historically."

If the jacket the Blue Label was made from was made from a jacket that Neil Cooper gifted to David Hack, and that jacket was made using WC's patterns from Raiders, then "historically" the Blue Label is as "accurate" as what ultimately ended up on screen...

You're right-it is a matter of terminology; but it's also
a matter of conceptuality.

Of course, to follow this line of thought, we have to redefine our common understanding of what makes a jacket "accurate." Can a jacket that only shows its elements in one or two scenes be as "accurate" as one that is seen in the majority of them?

How precise does our definition of "accurate" need to be?

In other words, can the Hack/Blue Label, with its 90s style strap config, and therefore all
those old 90s model Westeds, be considered "accurate?"

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:00 pm

If the Hack jacket is a jacket made for production (possibly 1 from the 10), the blue label is something I'd call "production accurate" and therefore the 90's Westeds with the same configuration would be too. This is clearly not the same as "screen accurate" though, but that wasn't your point, right?

Regards, Geert

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:24 pm

gwyddion wrote:If the Hack jacket is a jacket made for production (possibly 1 from the 10), the blue label is something I'd call "production accurate" and therefore the 90's Westeds with the same configuration would be too. This is clearly not the same as "screen accurate" though, but that wasn't your point, right?

Regards, Geert

I could get behind that compromise of viewpoints.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:14 pm

Precisely the point I'm making!

Indydawg

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:46 pm

Indydawg wrote:............
If the jacket the Blue Label was made from was made from a jacket that Neil Cooper gifted to David Hack, and that jacket was made using WC's patterns from Raiders, then "historically" the Blue Label is as "accurate" as what ultimately ended up on screen...

..........

According to what _ has posted, the jacket the blue label was made from could not have been made using the WC jacket as a pattern.
The 'Hawaii' and the other 'main' jacket apparently were patterned from the WC jacket, and these are quite different from the Blue label.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:51 pm

gwyddion wrote:If the Hack jacket is a jacket made for production (possibly 1 from the 10), the blue label is something I'd call "production accurate" and therefore the 90's Westeds with the same configuration would be too. This is clearly not the same as "screen accurate" though, but that wasn't your point, right?

Regards, Geert

That's possible, and would explain perhaps why it was unused.

Another possibility is, it has been suggested in other discussions that Cooper had submitted prototype jackets (separate from the jacket Neil Cooper apparently made pattern on the WC jacket). This jacket Sgt Hack has may have been a Cooper prototype, relegated to possible stunt use, and taken by Cooper at the end of filming since his company made it.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:53 am

Maybe I'm missing something, but couldn't they both simply be inaccurate to the "real" onscreen jacket in the same way? I mean, Wested have produced every weird configuration under the sun, so I wouldn't take any of their examples as meaning anything. And Wings is based on something that if not unused, is unseen. I just don't think you could draw any conclusions or significance from the similarity...

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:10 am

Well....yes, I suppose so.

I just find it a terribly odd coincidence that a jacket attributed to Neil Cooper, the man who made the "main" jacket that's seen in Raiders, and then reproduced later in the Wings Blue Label, has the EXACT same strap configuration and back yoke characteristics as the 90s Westeds....

Somewhere along the way, Wested must have gotten ahold of THAT jacket (or one made exactly LIKE) it in order for them to copy the jacket that precisely.

So...where did it come from and how did Wested get it?

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:57 am

"My gawd, I've seen just about every iteration come from that place short of pink mouton collars, and still claim they are based on the original patterns. Extrapolating "truth" or "provenance" from a Wested anything is just another dog chasing it's tail."

Well, I can't argue with you there....

I guess I'm just fixated on the connection here between this Hack/Blue Label and the Westeds I USED to see....and the consistencies that Wested DID used to hold to....that strap configuration, in particular, being one of them....the smaller action pleats, and larger top yoke, too...those were consistencies....and I see them in this Hack jacket...

I just wonder at the connection....

Thanks, guys, for toying with this idea with me....

High Regards!
Indydawg

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:48 pm

Lee Keppler wrote:
Is this the LC jacket you sent to Peter according to the new write up on the website? You got this jacket back, correct?? Sorry to talk about the LC jacket I am just wondering from Lee where this jacket is, it sounds like you currently have it.

IndianaChris
The jacket is hanging in my closet. It is the one I sent to Peter in 1987. It was made by Flight Suits. The last one made after the "misunderstanding". The two in the Lucasfilm archives were sold to the same person in 1986. One had snaps on the stormflap, the other did not. I hope this is clear, as I'm ready to crash now. I'm in Las Vegas for the gun show and have to get up at five.

Lee was your jacket used as a sample to make the LC made of goatskin or Cowhide?

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:33 pm

But Lee, what I'd love to hear from you is the answer to what I asked earlier:
On his 90s Westeds, why do you think Peter included these (unusal) sidestrap specs: inseam stitching, attached to the handwarmers? I mean, why not simply go with the standard Indy specs that he saw on your jacket? That's what I find baffling.

Ok...I'll bite this one, but spin it off....has it not been noticed that Peter included the "unusual" strap configuration that just so "happens" to be the EXACT same strap configuration on the jacket that Neil Cooper left Sarge after the changeover in ownership of Neil's company to US Wings? This "old" Wested strap config is EXACTLY what you guys saw with the "Blue Label" Wings jacket, and it's EXACTLY what we're all going to see again when Wings puts out the "Cooper pattern" jacket late this summer/early fall....

Please...I can't be the only person who has noticed this. I must just be missing everyone else...this can't be a case of...

"Everyone's lost but me!"

So...Peter MUST have seen this. Now where did he see it? If not on Lee's jacket, then WHERE!?!?! Did he see an old Cooper and copy it? Is that where he got the pattern for the Last Crusade jacket that he then had to change (to the strap on the outside) for some reason for the film? Did he then revert BACK to the jacket's actual pattern to make them for the general public? Please know I am just speculating wildly here....I think this is an entertaining thought experiment if nothing else!

Or (and please tell me if I am) Am I crazy on this?
Regards!
Indydawg

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:04 pm

You are not crazy at all on this. I've had my head spinning around these very same questions for some time now.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:39 pm

I thought the strap configuration used by Peter was similar but not EXACT.
But I don't want to dig back trough the photos.

Is that where he got the pattern for the Last Crusade jacket that he then had to change (to the strap on the outside) for some reason for the film?

If the story is correct, that the Last Crusade jacket was a copy of Lee's Adventure jacket (with snaps on the storm flap) your thought there could not be correct.
Unless I'm just misreading your question

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:51 pm

Indydawg

Sebas apparently asked the question of Peter, but never posted a reply here.

sebas wrote:...............
Like I said, I find it bemusing that Peter would apply these unsual, lesser-known specs on those 90s Wested just "for the heck of it." I mean, he was well aware of the "hero" specs as we can see in that Leather Concessionaries jacket above. Very weird. Having said this, I've emailed him asking him this very question. Let's see what he has to say...

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:50 am

No, and I won't hold my breath until Peter does reply.

From what I've seen of the pictures of that Wings Blue label jacket, (pics can be seen in Pitfall Harry's jacket sale post in the classifieds here), yes....the strap configuration is EXACTLY the same as what Wested used in the late 90s. It's also been commented by Sarge that he (Sarge, that is) was never all that crazy about that configuration, "with the strap going all the way up to the handwarmer pocket."

That's the old Wested style....which would be precisely consistent with the "old Cooper pattern."

So, however he did it, I have to think that Peter got his hands, at some point in time, on an old Cooper jacket, or at least a faithful copy OF the Cooper pattern.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:55 pm

Indydawg wrote:...........
So, however he did it, I have to think that Peter got his hands, at some point in time, on an old Cooper jacket, or at least a faithful copy OF the Cooper pattern.

Certainly possible. I don't think we will ever know.
What we do know is that configuration doesn't appear in the movie, except perhaps on the Bantu wind jacket.
As I said earlier in this thread, it could be the jacket the Blue label was based on was a Cooper prototype submission, relegated to 'stuntman issue' but never used. Later returned to Cooper.

Hopefully Lee will see this thread and reply about the leather of his jacket used to pattern the Last Crusade jacket.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:03 pm

Agreed!

Indydawg

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sun May 02, 2010 9:52 pm

I've read through the first two pages of this thread and wanted to post a few thoughts for now, but will read through the rest of the thread and may alter the content if it has already been stated, etc.

If you were asked to reproduce a jacket that you had made for film and produced a 'bellhop' jacket, then you couldn't possibly have the patterns. Good memory, shotty memory, or no memory, basically all you would HAVE to know is where you last put the patterns....

Theoretically, if you are a leather garment maker and someone gave you the patterns, you could produce a faithful likeness, whether or not you had anything to do with the films, originally.

"In fact, back in 1986, Lee had been looking for other potential sources for jackets. It was during these searches that he came across Peter Botwright and Leather Concessionaires. Learning that Peter was the man that made "THE" original jackets used in Raiders was quite a find. Numerous correspondences passed between the two. Peter sent Lee a jacket, represented as being made from the original patterns. This example however had numerous “authenticity issues.” In order to fix these inaccuracies, Lee sent Peter one of the Flight Suits manufactured Adventure Outfitters jackets to examine and Peter made some jackets based on it for Lee to consider for sale through his company. As no working relationship could be finely tuned to meet the needs of both Lee and Peter, no further partnership ensued. After Last Crusade, Lee would however became a 'broker' through his ads for fans wanting Indy jackets made by Peter."

With the help of Lee, armed with his VCR and a will to make a faithful copy, jacket specs were further honed to a more exacting pattern/finished product...pre-1990's.

Did HF keep the film used, Raiders Cooper jacket or was it kept aside for the archives?

This image below is a spot on representation of the first Wested I originally ordered, including the thin, dark brown English lambskin and wide storm flap.

BrandonA18 · Post by **BrandonA18** » Sun May 02, 2010 11:15 pm

Hi guys,

I haven't read this whole thread, but just wanted to touch on something I've mentioned here before.

Has anyone confirmed that the jacket auctioned by Bonhams and Butterfields was truly a film jacket? I know doubt has been cast over this piece before in the collecting community.

Does anyone have the original catalog description? Does it reference Martin Grace?

Is it possible that the jacket in the Butterfields auction is not a film jacket?

Regards
Brandon

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon May 03, 2010 3:24 am

BrandonA18 wrote:Hi guys,

I haven't read this whole thread, but just wanted to touch on something I've mentioned here before.

Has anyone confirmed that the jacket auctioned by Bonhams and Butterfields was truly a film jacket? I know doubt has been cast over this piece before in the collecting community.

Does anyone have the original catalog description? Does it reference Martin Grace?

Is it possible that the jacket in the Butterfields auction is not a film jacket?

Regards
Brandon

Would that be the jacket known as the 'Kurtz' jacket you are referring to?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon May 03, 2010 3:33 am

Texan Scott wrote:I've read through the first two pages of this thread and wanted to post a few thoughts for now, but will read through the rest of the thread and may alter the content if it has already been stated, etc.

If you were asked to reproduce a jacket that you had made for film and produced a 'bellhop' jacket, then you couldn't possibly have the patterns. Good memory, shotty memory, or no memory, basically all you would HAVE to know is where you last put the patterns.... Theoretically, if you are a leather garment maker and someone gave you the patterns, you could produce a faithful likeness, whether or not you had anything to do with the films, originally.

"In fact, back in 1986, Lee had been looking for other potential sources for jackets. It was during these searches that he came across Peter Botwright and Leather Concessionaires. Learning that Peter was the man that made "THE" original jackets used in Raiders was quite a find. Numerous correspondences passed between the two. Peter sent Lee a jacket, represented as being made from the original patterns. This example however had numerous “authenticity issues.” In order to fix these inaccuracies, Lee sent Peter one of the Flight Suits manufactured Adventure Outfitters jackets to examine and Peter made some jackets based on it for Lee to consider for sale through his company. As no working relationship could be finely tuned to meet the needs of both Lee and Peter, no further partnership ensued. After Last Crusade, Lee would however became a 'broker' through his ads for fans wanting Indy jackets made by Peter."

With the help of Lee, armed with his VCR and a will to make a faithful copy, jacket specs were further honed to a more exacting pattern/finished product...pre-1990's.

Did HF keep the film used, Raiders Cooper jacket or was it kept aside for the archives?

This image below is a spot on representation of the first Wested I originally ordered, including the thin, dark brown English lambskin and wide storm flap.

I'm not sure Lee ever sold Wested or Leather Concessionaires jackets. He did sell his jackets made by flightsuits. It has been said that Lee's Flightsuits jacket was the basis for the Last Crusade jacket. (differentiated from the flightsuits jacket _ examined and took notes on- which Lee named the Expedition)

The jacket in the photo is the jacket Sgt Hack has, apparently a Cooper jacket.
Your observation of it looking like a Wested of the early 90's is the mystery.

What we do know is it is not like a jacket seen on screen in the movie, as I said before with the possible exception of maybe having some features of the Bantu Wind dockside scene jacket.

Post by **Holt** » Mon May 03, 2010 6:17 am

RCSignals wrote:
BrandonA18 wrote:Hi guys,

I haven't read this whole thread, but just wanted to touch on something I've mentioned here before.

Has anyone confirmed that the jacket auctioned by Bonhams and Butterfields was truly a film jacket? I know doubt has been cast over this piece before in the collecting community.

Does anyone have the original catalog description? Does it reference Martin Grace?

Is it possible that the jacket in the Butterfields auction is not a film jacket?

Regards
Brandon
Would that be the jacket known as the 'Kurtz' jacket you are referring to?

no I think he is refering to this 'raiders' jacket.

CM · Post by CM » Mon May 03, 2010 6:59 am

RCSignals wrote:
Lee Keppler wrote:
Is this the LC jacket you sent to Peter according to the new write up on the website? You got this jacket back, correct?? Sorry to talk about the LC jacket I am just wondering from Lee where this jacket is, it sounds like you currently have it.

IndianaChris
The jacket is hanging in my closet. It is the one I sent to Peter in 1987. It was made by Flight Suits. The last one made after the "misunderstanding". The two in the Lucasfilm archives were sold to the same person in 1986. One had snaps on the stormflap, the other did not. I hope this is clear, as I'm ready to crash now. I'm in Las Vegas for the gun show and have to get up at five.
Lee was your jacket used as a sample to make the LC made of goatskin or Cowhide?

This is what Lee said about his Archive Jacket in 2008

My original jackets by FS was goatskin, non-distressed. The last one FS made for me as we thought FS was being sold(The deal fell through! The original good guys still own the company) was horsehide. The wear you see came from use. If I haden't "expanded" I'd still be wearing it. The lining was satin as in the back cover of "Stars" picture, which is where the gussets were copied from. If memory serves correctly (Probably not!) around 100 were turned out, which includes one with snaps on the wind flap.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon May 03, 2010 9:32 am

Supposedly, Lee sent him a FS jacket, and as it has been stated several times in other threads, he apparently kept it, deconstructed it, and reproduced them. That was apparently one of the 'flash points' with the CS proposition. He wanted to take the proto apart and Bernie would not let him. I see some consistencies in these two stories.

What I was referring to was that pre-90's, he had a "pattern" to go by, which was a real deal FS. He could have copied, modified, or incorporated some or all the specs of this jacket into reproduction jackets. A few specs. have significantly changed over the years, the placement of the straps, pockets and width of the storm flap, and to the betterment of the jacket.

Apparently, the WC mock-up pattern was the pattern originally used as a template for which all the others was made, including Cooper and (Wested/LC), as WC produced the first 'mock-up', or cloth working copy. Whether acknolwdged or not, this was actually the first Indy jacket, and apparently it saw some screen time in the Hovitos chase scene.

Isn't the Cooper Hero jacket in the archives or with HF? It was my understanding that there was only one Cooper jacket made for Raiders and it was the Hero jacket used in various scenes.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Mon May 03, 2010 9:55 am

I think that's right....it being in the archives somewhere...maybe even in GL's office? I could be wrong there.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon May 03, 2010 10:00 am

I would say that it was Lee and his VHS copy of Raiders that got the strap config. right, and other details for that matter, and that the reproduction jackets are the reflections of man who sought to nail the specs. The "patterns" was the FS jacket used as a template.

BrandonA18 · Post by **BrandonA18** » Mon May 03, 2010 10:25 am

Indiana Holt wrote:
RCSignals wrote:
Would that be the jacket known as the 'Kurtz' jacket you are referring to?
no I think he is refering to this 'raiders' jacket.

Correct - I was referring to the jacket on the right.

I would also be curious to hear if anyone has been able to match the Kurtz jacket up on screen.

Having met or spoken to many people involved with the IJ films (including Vic Armstrong and Terry Leonard - both of whom say they have no jacket), the only jacket I've ever come across that is 100% authentic is the one formerly held by Noel Howard, that has been seen photographed on this board extensively.

Regards
Brandon

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon May 03, 2010 11:13 am

Like you said, there is quite a bit of doubt from some members here (including myself) on the validity of the Butterfield (and the Kurtz jacket, for that matter) jacket being screen used. To me, it appears far more likely that it is an early Wested that was distressed LC style and put up for auction.

But, aside from the Butterfield jacket, it's been touched on again what is the central mystery here. The WC mockup was apparently the basis for the Coopers and Peter's versions of the jacket that made it on screen. Like RC has said, none of these jackets share similar characteristics with the jacket the Blue Label (BL) was based off (I'm talking details here, not overall design) except maybe the "dockside" photo jacket and the dockside scenes in the movie.

Now, going from memory here, Lee contacted Peter and asked discussed with him the Raiders jacket. Peter asserted that he had the original patterns and went on to produce the infamous bellhop jacket. Lee worked with Peter to refine the specs to make the jacket we see on screen.

Here's where it really gets confusing.

After Peter gets spec help from Lee, he then, for a time, produces jackets that have specs similar to the jacket the BL was based on. Like Sebas and the rest of us have asked many times, why the change? Why go from a set of specs that are fairly close to what we see on screen to this set of specs?

Then, from Sgt. Hack when he was introducing the BL, we are told that the jacket the BL is based on is an unused stunt jacket from Raiders, yet it has specs that (other than the scenes I described above) no jacket on screen has--at least to my eye. And what is the provenance of that jacket? Did Cooper give Sgt. Hack an unused Leather Concessionaires stunt jacket or a jacket based on an unused design of his own? Or something else that my poor brain can't fathom?

These are the questions that try men's souls.