ORIGINS OF TODAYS INDY JACKET CORRECTION.

[PETER]

In the absence of a responce from Runquest I feel I must post the the following correction.

The modern Indy jacket has a long history behind it. I thought that it was about time that more people had access to the real story. It all starts with Peter Botwright, obviously. Peter made the Indiana Jones jackets for Raiders of the Lost Ark and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. At the time of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, Bermans & Nathens (the costume suppliers) were peeved with Peter, so they went with another company to make the jackets. If there were any jackets made by Peter used in TOD, it's a good bet that they were left overs from Raiders.

It is true that at this time we were blacklisted by Monty Berman a we in his opinion had the audacity to supply the jackets for Roger Moore and co for the 007 film AView To A Kill. However we did supply the initial Temple of Doom jackets by arrangement with Noel Howard through the back door as they had no one else to make them and I had the patterns.
I had no knowledge of Lee Keepler until he contacted me and asked me to supply him Indy jackets. This we did for several years until we opened our our web siite and started selling direct and because of the price Lee could not obtain his profit margin.

Lee immediately sent Peter his Flight Suits jacket to work from (and to jog his memory). At least one hold over from this (and testament to it) is the inside pocket of the modern Wested, which took it’s design from the FS fan jacket (you can see a pic in the link posted above). The original Raiders pocket design (with the straight thin leather facings) can be seen in the “stars” pic and also on the dvd (when Indy picks up the idol).

This is a complete fabrication Lee never sent me a FS jacket in fact I had no knowledge of FS existance until they produced the Expedition jacket in the late 90's and according to FS advert they only started business in 1988. So how on earth could I copy thier pocket for the crusade jacket.
I had never seen a FS jacket until about 2/3 years ago when I was shown one by Chris King.
The change of pocket was requested for the Last Crusade as it was required to hold the diary and they thought the existing Raiders pocket was too small and not strong enough. I put this in all of the jackets for this very reason.

Since there were many differences between the then current Wested and the jacket that Paterson examined, Paterson first offered his findings to Peter. Peter refused them.

If you read the post by _ I did not refuse them but said I would review them as I have with others who have come up with finer points of the design. Some I take on board and some I don't in my attempt to constantly impove authenticity combined with practicality.
That off my chest I am going to enjoy my Xmas Turkey and have some falling down water.
Cheers and Merry Xmas to all
Peter

[TheMantis]

Well said, well spoken and well clarified.....from the horse's mouth so to speak. Now please, leave Peter alone so he can work on my James Bond jacket...

[Indydawg]

And you and the family have a safe and happy New Year, too!!!

Cheers!
Indydawg

[Marc]

I think it was interesting to read Rundquist's post regarding today's Indy jackets.

This was very interesting as well.

Thanks for posting the "other side of the coin" Peter. I think we are all well informed on the origins and the developments of our most loved jackets now, so there's nothing left than enjoying the Christmas turkey and be grateful to have several vendors who all have some great products to chose from.

Merry Christmas to all of you,

Marc

[FLATHEAD]

I am going to enjoy my Xmas Turkey and have some falling down water.

I vote this to be the best quote of the YEAR!!!! I love the falling down
water part best!! You just can't make this stuff up!!

Peter, you have proved yourself over and over to be a guy with a
great sense of humor!!

Merry Christmas to all, and to all some falling down water!!

Flathead

[Indydawg]

Cheers!!!
Indydawg

[Doctor_Jones]

Merry X-mas Peter and merry X-mas to all!!!

[Captain D]

"Thank You" Peter for your posting!!

I don't mean to sound ignorant or anything....but I am "hoping" to buy one more "Raiders'" jacket. At first, I was thinking about going with a Flightsuits Goatskin jacket, but as I continue to save up money...I began to ask:

1.) Goatskin is Goatskin right? Why would Peter's Goat be of any "less" of quality?
2.) And lastly, and perhaps "MORE" importantly, Peter has made his designs MORE screen accurate....so how much of a difference in "design" is Flightsuits jacket compared to Wested's "Raider's of the Lost Ark"" jacket?

I hope that I haven't put more "wood on the fire" I just wanted to state a fact perhaps...AND to give credit to Peter at Wested.

Kind Regards,
Captain D

[IndianaJames]

Merry christmas Peter!

IJ

[auntsugar]

Well put, Peter! And Merry Christmas!

[MK]

That off my chest I am going to enjoy my Xmas Turkey and have some falling down water.
Cheers and Merry Xmas to all
Peter

Good for you. Have one for me too.

You have a Merry CHRISTmas too

[LNBright]

in fact I had no knowledge of FS existance until they produced the Expedition jacket in the late 90's and according to FS advert they only started business in 1988.

Hi Peter,
Just one bit of correction to your correction here......
On FS's website it states:
"We started manufacturing with two employees in a 1,000 square foot building in 1977"

In the summer of 1988, I was at the EAA Fly-In, more commonly known as the Oshkosh Air Show, annually held in Wisconsin. At that show, I spent many hours at FS's booth, looking at their jackets. It was apparent that, at that time, they weren't a start-up company, everything was extremely well made, and several people were wearing their gear from years' past there, too.

Don't misunderstand me, as I'm not advocating them over you; coming from a scientific background, I try to ensure that my facts are correct. All I wanted to point out was that they were in business prior to 1988.

Now that I've started saying anything, I suppose I should point out to everyone that you're not saying anything bad about them, either, you are being a true professional and simply stating your case in an honorable way.


[FWIW....
Like Lee, I wanted an Indy jacket, and in those pre-Internet days, had not yet heard of you or your involvement in the movie(s). At that show when I was looking at their A2 jackets, one of the helpful FS sales reps there asked if I needed any help. At first we just chatted a bit, but finally, I got to the point: "Well, what I really want is one of these without the elastic, more like Indiana Jones'..." I was delighted with the reply "It's not in the catalog, but we can make that jacket for you...." That fall, as an early Christmas present, I rec'd an excellent jacket from them, that I still wear today.

It's only because of IG/COW, that I now can learn all of the history that was going on at the time, how they were in a position to make the jacket. Interesting, really. Anyway.....

If you look at the pics of Lee's prototypes at http://www.adventure-supply.com/propresearch.htm I can say that my jacket is extremely similar to the one seen there. The big difference is that mine is in goat, which has a different texture than what is seen in those photos. Mine doesn't have a snap on the inside pocket, but the pattern of the opening of the inside pocket is the same as his. I have one-piece gussets under the arms, but they are stitched in a bit differently than the one on his site. My side-straps are similar, though threaded differently. ]


Again, don't get me wrong: the fact is, you made the originals, you still make them today, you're making improvements as needed, you have an excellent customer service reputation, and your prices are a tremendous value. Now that you've decided to make pants and shirts, I dare say it won't be too long before I do business with you (not instantly, but in the planning stages .... have to mind the monthly budget, and take care of priorities first, like kids' needs, etc....).

There are other companies that made gear for the original movies (ie, HJ), that no longer make the "right" item anymore.... they have something close, and hopefully they're going to stick with it and try to improve their product to match the originals, but have changed their line-up over time.... definitely not the case with you.

FS, though, does make a quality product, and I cannot say anything negative about them, either. Yes, they are not the makers of the jackets for the film, yes their jacket is more expensive than yours. Undeniable. But they make a good jacket, too, and also have great customer service.

Now, not directed at you, but in general to all of us.....

As far as the argument goes, I don't have a dog in this fight. I think there's more than enough room for both businesses in jackets, along with the others too (whether I'd consider them or not is another matter, tho'! ). I'd be happy in a jacket made by either. Same with hats.... Optimo has its supporters; I love my Akubra Dlx Fed; HJ was the original; but I would love to have a Custom PB (or better, a PBBM ). They can all co-exist, even in the same closet, right? Same with whips, too.... DM made the originals, but I don't think anyone's complaing about Joe Strain's, or the other quality whipmakers out there.

Isn't this the season of peace? Can't we just get along? Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who, I've not lost a son, but I've gained a daughter ("But I'm not dead") (Sorry, a MP tangent there.....) Guys, don't knock Peter, he's a great fellow, and I really look forward to when I can do business with him. FS makes a great product, too. Let's not fight anymore, eh? Both of the businesses are respectable, why can't we all be, too?

Mi dos centavos..... FWIW.....

-Leslie

[Indiana Jackson]

In my opinion, Peter made the originals for the films and you can't get anymore authentic than that! Thanks Peter for all the hard work you do. Don't let any negativity around the forum discourage you. We want to see you staying on the forum.

Cheers & Merry Christmas!

Now back to my leftover Christmas turkey and my new christmas gift of Raiders of the Lost Ark on DVD!

Happy Holidays,

Indiana Jackson

[Sergei]

in fact I had no knowledge of FS existance until they produced the Expedition jacket in the late 90's and according to FS advert they only started business in 1988.

Hi Peter,
Just one bit of correction to your correction here......
On FS's website it states:
"We started manufacturing with two employees in a 1,000 square foot building in 1977"

In the summer of 1988, I was at the EAA Fly-In, more commonly known as the Oshkosh Air Show, annually held in Wisconsin. At that show, I spent many hours at FS's booth, looking at their jackets. It was apparent that, at that time, they weren't a start-up company, everything was extremely well made, and several people were wearing their gear from years' past there, too.

Don't misunderstand me, as I'm not advocating them over you; coming from a scientific background, I try to ensure that my facts are correct. All I wanted to point out was that they were in business prior to 1988.

Now that I've started saying anything, I suppose I should point out to everyone that you're not saying anything bad about them, either, you are being a true professional and simply stating your case in an honorable way.


[FWIW....
Like Lee, I wanted an Indy jacket, and in those pre-Internet days, had not yet heard of you or your involvement in the movie(s). At that show when I was looking at their A2 jackets, one of the helpful FS sales reps there asked if I needed any help. At first we just chatted a bit, but finally, I got to the point: "Well, what I really want is one of these without the elastic, more like Indiana Jones'..." I was delighted with the reply "It's not in the catalog, but we can make that jacket for you...." That fall, as an early Christmas present, I rec'd an excellent jacket from them, that I still wear today.

It's only because of IG/COW, that I now can learn all of the history that was going on at the time, how they were in a position to make the jacket. Interesting, really. Anyway.....

If you look at the pics of Lee's prototypes at http://www.adventure-supply.com/propresearch.htm I can say that my jacket is extremely similar to the one seen there. The big difference is that mine is in goat, which has a different texture than what is seen in those photos. Mine doesn't have a snap on the inside pocket, but the pattern of the opening of the inside pocket is the same as his. I have one-piece gussets under the arms, but they are stitched in a bit differently than the one on his site. My side-straps are similar, though threaded differently. ]


Again, don't get me wrong: the fact is, you made the originals, you still make them today, you're making improvements as needed, you have an excellent customer service reputation, and your prices are a tremendous value. Now that you've decided to make pants and shirts, I dare say it won't be too long before I do business with you (not instantly, but in the planning stages .... have to mind the monthly budget, and take care of priorities first, like kids' needs, etc....).

There are other companies that made gear for the original movies (ie, HJ), that no longer make the "right" item anymore.... they have something close, and hopefully they're going to stick with it and try to improve their product to match the originals, but have changed their line-up over time.... definitely not the case with you.

FS, though, does make a quality product, and I cannot say anything negative about them, either. Yes, they are not the makers of the jackets for the film, yes their jacket is more expensive than yours. Undeniable. But they make a good jacket, too, and also have great customer service.

Now, not directed at you, but in general to all of us.....

As far as the argument goes, I don't have a dog in this fight. I think there's more than enough room for both businesses in jackets, along with the others too (whether I'd consider them or not is another matter, tho'! ). I'd be happy in a jacket made by either. Same with hats.... Optimo has its supporters; I love my Akubra Dlx Fed; HJ was the original; but I would love to have a Custom PB (or better, a PBBM ). They can all co-exist, even in the same closet, right? Same with whips, too.... DM made the originals, but I don't think anyone's complaing about Joe Strain's, or the other quality whipmakers out there.

Isn't this the season of peace? Can't we just get along? Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who, I've not lost a son, but I've gained a daughter ("But I'm not dead") (Sorry, a MP tangent there.....) Guys, don't knock Peter, he's a great fellow, and I really look forward to when I can do business with him. FS makes a great product, too. Let's not fight anymore, eh? Both of the businesses are respectable, why can't we all be, too?

Mi dos centavos..... FWIW.....

-Leslie

Well said Leslie! Fair and balanced. There's plenty of room for everybody. Life is just too short to be always picking sides. Everyone, and I mean everyone, please read Leslie's post twice.

Take Care...
-Sergei

[Fedora]

I read it 3 times. He has said it, and said it well. Fair and balanced reporting. I agree with him 100 per cent. At the same time, I love the sifting that some of our members do, regularly. We are have one thing in common. We are interested in infomation regarding our hobbies. Please let that sifting never stop. It is like a river. If it does not flow, it is by all intent and purposes dead. Of course not all of us like rough water, but a nice flow is needed. I hope we never become stagnant here at COW. regards, Fedora