What the !@#$ is this?!

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:15 pm

My attention was just called to this @#$%! Did anyone else know about this? This is a complete suprise to me. Selling roo whips to CA folks is illegal!

California Penal Code 653o

653o. (a) It is unlawful to import into this state for commercial
purposes, to possess with intent to sell, or to sell within the
state, the dead body, or any part or product thereof, of any
alligator, crocodile, polar bear, leopard, ocelot, tiger, cheetah,
jaguar, sable antelope, wolf ( Canis lupus), zebra, whale, cobra,
python, sea turtle, colobus monkey, kangaroo, vicuna, sea otter,
free-roaming feral horse, dolphin or porpoise (Delphinidae), Spanish
lynx, or elephant.
Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of
a misdemeanor and shall be subject to a fine of not less than one
thousand dollars ($1,000) and not to exceed five thousand dollars
($5,000) or imprisonment in the county jail for not to exceed six
months, or both such fine and imprisonment, for each violation.
(b) The prohibitions against importation for commercial purposes,
possession with intent to sell, and sale of the species listed in
this section are severable. A finding of the invalidity of any one
or more prohibitions shall not affect the validity of any remaining
prohibitions.

:evil:

skywlkr · Post by **skywlkr** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:24 pm

Whips are probably an exception, since it has been processed into a form not readily recognizable as a kangaroo.

Luke

whipmeister · Post by **whipmeister** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:35 pm

skywlkrinc,

I think whips would fall under the "or any part or product thereof" clause. And just because kangaroos are not on the endangered species list doesn't matter - If it's on the books, it's enforcable.

Now, how it's being enforced is another matter. The CA Attorney General tends to pick and choose what is enforced depending on how much money can be made off of it...

But I certainly hope you're right

Signed,
Whipmeister (Another disgruntled CA native...)

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:02 pm

...for commercial purposes, to possess with intent to sell..

I think this is the important line. The way I understand it, a whipmaker couldn't have raw materials used make roo whips shipped to CA.

It doesn't sound like, however, selling whips to CA residents is against the law.

Then again, I am no lawyer.

Pyr.

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:32 pm

Kyle,

Why don't you run that by David Morgan. I'm sure he's sold a whip or two to somone in CA over the years.

Jim

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:10 pm

It's probably one of those laws that aren't enforced, such as it is illegal to modify a cars exhaust system in anyway. Heard any loud cars lately? Besides, Siegel of California, up until just recently, sold Kangaroo skins. I bought them there. I've also sold whips to people in CA.

Pretty soon, it seems it will be illegal to have fun, too.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:21 pm

Paul_Stenhouse wrote:

Pretty soon, it seems it will be illegal to have fun, too.

Didn't you hear the lastest coming out of Washington?

whipmeister · Post by **whipmeister** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:36 pm

ecwhips,

I buy lace from David Morgan on a fairly regular basis... I wonder if the law can be interpreted to mean kangaroo lace AND kangaroo whips are illegal to import???

And... I'm no lawyer either...

Whipmeister

jerryrwm · Post by **jerryrwm** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:14 pm

The operative word seems to be "commercial" but after that I'm not sure what to do about it.

Hope my customers in CA can still get their whips. But it also seems that sending whips into CA is not against the law, but rather the "Importing" of not the "Exporting to CA>

Jerry R

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:17 pm

It'd be interesting to see when this became a law. Didn't Flightsuits use to sell a Roo jacket...if so I wonder if that's why they no longer do. I guess that rules out anybody selling alligator or elephant hide boots or purses. But I'll betcha could walk into a cowboy store and find that in California. You know...the Karankawa Indians of Texas used to put alligator fat on them to keep mosquitos away. I guess I won't be marketing that if I ever move to California.

Jerry seems if your California customers were to sell their whips they have to do so to someone outside of California. But how do you define commercial purposes...does that include a hobby? Or is that more like if you were to make money off of the use of the whip...like with lessons or something?

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:31 pm

whipmeister wrote:skywlkrinc,

I think whips would fall under the "or any part or product thereof" clause. And just because kangaroos are not on the endangered species list doesn't matter - If it's on the books, it's enforcable.

Now, how it's being enforced is another matter. The CA Attorney General tends to pick and choose what is enforced depending on how much money can be made off of it...

But I certainly hope you're right

Signed,
Whipmeister (Another disgruntled CA native...)

So true. When I was with the NJ Atty Gen office, that was kind of the same mentality on some matters like this.

The real bottom line in general: Unless somebody gets really bent over it and causes 1. bad press and/or 2. ANY revenue loss for the State, they'll enforce it. Governments don't really have the resources to chase Joe Average over $500 of whip when there are drug gangs in Compton and a social services system that is a disaster.

Nonetheless, any vendors should consult an attorney. I am licensed in NJ and would gladly speak to NJ vendors if they so desire. Please PM me.

Peace

Ken "JJ"

auntsugar · Post by **auntsugar** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:39 am

Darn, and I wanted a colobus monkey fur fedora.

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:41 am

Well, there are products like my baseball glove that are clearly stamped Kangaroo hide. Which if you read the above would make it against the law to buy, sell or possess.

However, subsection (b) of 653o PC states:

The prohibitions against importation for commercial purposes, possession with intent to sell, and sale of the species listed in this section are severable. A finding of the invalidity of any one or more prohibitions shall not affect the validity of any remaining prohibitions.

Basically it is saying that some items are severable. Meaning that they (California) can elect to not enforce 653o, relative to what ever product is in question. So, items that are above board and being sold on the open market through reputable firms would be ok. However, items being smuggled into California, or sold as cowhide, or the like, when they are one of the listed species, etc, are clearly in violation and relative to those items, the law will be enforced.

Is that clear????

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:09 am

Imahomer wrote:Well, there are products like my baseball glove that are clearly stamped Kangaroo hide. Which if you read the above would make it against the law to buy, sell or possess.

However, subsection (b) of 653o PC states:

The prohibitions against importation for commercial purposes, possession with intent to sell, and sale of the species listed in this section are severable. A finding of the invalidity of any one or more prohibitions shall not affect the validity of any remaining prohibitions.

Basically it is saying that some items are severable. Meaning that they (California) can elect to not enforce 653o, relative to what ever product is in question. So, items that are above board and being sold on the open market through reputable firms would be ok. However, items being smuggled into California, or sold as cowhide, or the like, when they are one of the listed species, etc, are clearly in violation and relative to those items, the law will be enforced.

Is that clear????

Insanely yes it is clear to me. Three years of law school and seven years of practice later.

I hadn't had a chance last night to look up the code sections to study them ( I had actual work they pay me for to do

), but I will do some following up.

Again, vendors CONSULT YOUR ATTORNEYS to CYA.

Ken "JJ"

Major Mike · Post by **Major Mike** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:41 am

I seem to recall that Packer Tannery in Australia, who provides just about all the tanned roo-hide, has a fee they have to charge when they export to America for the cost of the paperwork to satisfy the government regulations here. This checks all the blocks for them to legitimately sell hides commercially here. Usually when you see regulations like what is showing in California, its to stem the flow of ILLEGAL or unregulated (poached) trade.

But this is California, so who knows. Maybe if we send Arnold a nice whip, he'll change the law.

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:36 pm

I've got to tell you, I've been fuming at this ever since I first read it. I'm not great at interpreting legalese but my first impression of it was that selling kangaroo hide whips to California residents is illegal.

This pair of boots at the Sportsman's Guide enforced that line of thinking. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=109987

I'm still researching this though and I'll let you know what I find. The many great comments made in this thread has really eased my concern though. Things like it being a minor law only enforced if it was big business or illegally obtained materials. However, even if that were the case it is still an infraction of the law. What really changed my point of view was Jerry's comment about it being an importing issue and not an exporting one. Living in WA if I sell a whip to Sergei I am exporting it to him for personal use. He is not importing it for commercial purposes. If Sergei were buying roo whips from out of state to turn around and sell then he would be in violation. That is, if I am interpreting it correctly. That makes sense to me.

But it still doesn't explain the pair of boots at Sportsman's Guide not shipping to CA. I just got off the phone with them and they didn't have the reason on hand as to why. The representative I spoke to just said that they have specific contracts with some states that don't allow them to ship certain items there. (I did not mention CPC653o.)

Bottom line, I don't know what the deal with this code is. It caught me off guard though! It can't be something that regulates trans-state imports though because David Morgan and Mark Allen, to name just a couple, sell and ship roo whips to stunt men in CA all the time and have for years.

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:56 pm

I wonder if that's why Mark Allen's business is located in Lost Wages (Las Vegas) instead of CA.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 1:07 pm

I agree with Imahomer's interpretation above. The use of Kangaroo leather products is very pervasive in our culture. Remember those Adidas, 3 stripe basketball shoes that came out in the 60's? The reason they were good, was because the leather uppers were thin therefore lightweight, but durable, and all because of Kangaroo. They were quite the rage then and now Kangaroo leather is used wildly throughtout athletic gear world. Then there are gloves, purses, jackets, belts, wallets, etc. I see none of it banned here in California. I have ordered whips from David Morgan, and he has shipped Kangaroo products into California. David is the type of guy, who understands commerce and the laws around it.

See the below articles on the lawsuits against Adidas:
http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory ... /story.htm

Also the Kalifornia legislature is taking action on completely ridding this archiac law off the books:
http://republican.sen.ca.gov/news/36/pr ... se2532.asp

Here is information on showing your support for the removal of the archaic law in Kalifornia:
http://www.maninnature.com/SB233/

-Sergei

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:35 pm

Sergei wrote:I agree with Imahomer's interpretation above. The use of Kangaroo leather products is very pervasive in our culture. Remember those Adidas, 3 stripe basketball shoes that came out in the 60's? The reason they were good, was because the leather uppers were thin therefore lightweight, but durable, and all because of Kangaroo. They were quite the rage then and now Kangaroo leather is used wildly throughtout athletic gear world. Then there are gloves, purses, jackets, belts, wallets, etc. I see none of it banned here in California. I have ordered whips from David Morgan, and he has shipped Kangaroo products into California. David is the type of guy, who understands commerce and the laws around it.

See the below articles on the lawsuits against Adidas:
http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory ... /story.htm

Also the Kalifornia legislature is taking action on completely ridding this archiac law off the books:
http://republican.sen.ca.gov/news/36/pr ... se2532.asp

Here is information on showing your support for the removal of the archaic law in Kalifornia:
http://www.maninnature.com/SB233/

-Sergei

Feds off to Sergei for tracking this down. You have now robbed me of all my legal fees !

Tee Hee !

Ken "JJ"

Janine Fraser · Post by **Janine Fraser** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:23 pm

Major Mike wrote:I seem to recall that Packer Tannery in Australia, who provides just about all the tanned roo-hide, has a fee they have to charge when they export to America for the cost of the paperwork to satisfy the government regulations here. This checks all the blocks for them to legitimately sell hides commercially here. Usually when you see regulations like what is showing in California, its to stem the flow of ILLEGAL or unregulated (poached) trade.

But this is California, so who knows. Maybe if we send Arnold a nice whip, he'll change the law.

G'day folks!

All whipmakers who export from Australia "should" be obtaining and attaching an export permit, for each parcel sent from Australia! There is a fee attached to each permit which is paid to Environment Australia. there are three copies of each permit, one kept with the whipmaker, one travels with the package and the other goes back to Enviornment Australia. They want acurate details of when, where, and by whom the hides were purchased and tanned from.
Anyway a little information from down under to add to the topic!

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:12 am

I contacted Sebastian (of Whip Enthusiasts) regarding this topic. I have his permission to post his 2 responses but he said that this is his recollection of what he recalls hearing so it may not be 100% on target :

Sebastion:

Thanks for the info about the thread. I was told that is actually a misunderstanding and caused by type layout. It seems to have gone a bit further.. The endangered species is the kangaroo rat.

Me:

Do you mind if I post your reply on Indygear. I'm sure the guys would be interested to hear it.

Sebastion:

I don't mind, Except I've probably either heard wrong or was told wrong.
As I recall it, in the US game and wildlife manual the paragraph about importation of animal species placed kangaroo rat, on two lines kangaroo at the furthest right margin and rat on the next line. Now there is a sub species of kangaroo that is endangered but it is a small animal and not suitable for made into a whip. Our whips are from the hide of Marsupius Giangatus <sp?> and those rather large critter are still in overwhelming population numbers.
Easiest way to find out is to inquire of the Aussie wildlife dept.

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:50 am

I don't know about the "kangaroo rat", but the book we are referring to is the California Penal Code. Where of the animals it lists, it is clearly kangaroo. That book has noting to do with the Fish & Game wildlife manual.

However, I think this is getting blown way out of proportion. There are items sold every day in California that are made of Kangaroo and it's perfectly ok. I think we are beating this thing into the ground.

VP · Post by VP » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:35 am

auntsugar wrote:Darn, and I wanted a colobus monkey fur fedora.

Well then it's a good thing that you don't live in California

.

The_Edge · Post by **The_Edge** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:53 am

Excellent links, Sergei. Thank you for tracking those down.

ITG,

Sebastion is probably correct, though I have not researched it, about the US Game and Wildlife manual. But as it was mentioned before this thread is in regards to specific California code. Good info. from Sebastian though. Thanks.

Imahomer wrote: However, I think this is getting blown way out of proportion. There are items sold every day in California that are made of Kangaroo and it's perfectly ok. I think we are beating this thing into the ground.

Agreed. I was caught off guard by this thing and made my original post based, not on reasoned thinking, but as a purely emotional knee jerk. I'm not too worried about it now though. I don't think CPC653o effects anyone living outside CA. I'm going to let go.

Thanks to everyone for their help and input regarding this matter.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:55 am

I also noticed that alligator skin and ivory would also be illegal to sell here in CA. I'm not sure what a "free roaming feral horse" is, but would that include cordovan leather and dog food? I know if any Californian goes to their local mall they're sure to find something made of alligator skin.

Also, "import into this state for commercial purposes, to possess with intent to sell, or to sell within the state" means it's not illegal to send a whip here to a customer who wants it for himself. It's illegal to have them for resale.

Dakota Hurly · Post by **Dakota Hurly** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:03 pm

Hey all. I am a lawyer, ableit a North Dakota one. However, this statute seems to be intended solely towards vendors. If you are not one, I wouldn't sweat it too much. Another point already mentioned, there are alot of laws in the books that are not enforced and make it in the century codes for one reason or another. some are for historical purposes, others because the code books are so big that things are missed when lawmakers get together during the session of congress to delete certain lines. This doesn't seem to be an enforceable statute, nor one that deals with costumers. Why, because hollywood movies have had whips in their pictures. If this law where enforced in such a way, i guarntee you that no whips in Zorro, Batman Returns, nor Indiana Jones. That is all I can tell you. Don't sweat it.

bernie47 · Post by **bernie47** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 6:47 am

_________________

G'day All.
What Janine says is correct.Folks in CA do not have to worry.This applies only if you are buying the article for resale,it also only applies to protected species of kangaroos.
You see there are kangaroos and then there are kangaroos.I don't know how many different species there are,some are fully protected and some are not.The two species culled on a large scale and used for kangaroo hides here in Australia are the Eastern Grey kangaroo,(macropus giganteus) and the red kangaroo,(marcropus rufus).I think you will find if you look into it that these two species have been recognised as not being in danger by the US authorities.
Similar laws apply in New York state and Washington State.I looked into this thoroughly before I started exporting to the US and have always made sure that all the correct documentation acompanied the whips that I send.
Private citizens will not have any problems but if you import for resale you must acquire a Federal Permit otherwise heavy fines can be incurred no matter where you live in the USA and there is also a Federal levy for each shipment.A vendor I supply in Texas was made aware of this one morning when the Feds came a knocking on the door.The upshot was a $2000.00 fine.
If your still not sure get in touch with your Federal customs people and ask them,they really are a friendly bunch

What the !@#$ is this?!

What the !@#$ is this?!

Re: What the !@#$ is this?!