Somebody convince me...

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:51 pm

That would explain the pattern similarities some are so confused about

Thanks!

Regards, Geert

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:23 pm

Pattern confusion?

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:31 pm

Yojimbo Jones wrote:Pattern confusion?

Some say the differences between patterns are to small for the patterns to have emerged independently. If the WC mock-up was used by all makers, that would explain the similarities in the patterns between some jackets by different makers.

Regards, Geert

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:48 pm

gwyddion wrote:
Yojimbo Jones wrote:Pattern confusion?
Some say the differences between patterns are to small for the patterns to have emerged independently. If the WC mock-up was used by all makers, that would explain the similarities in the patterns between some jackets by different makers.

Regards, Geert

Except it does not explain the big differences in Pattern of the BW jacket and the jacket _ examined, and the Cooper (which is basically identical to the Raven/WoS/flying wing jacket.
Especially the BW which at this point is apparently the 'pos' if hey are all based on the WC mock up.

What happened to the Wilson's jackets which were also based on the WC mock up and apparently sent to England?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:49 pm

_ wrote:..... Just know AD may have gotten creative in his interpretation of the jacket. .......

Some one has to have

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:23 pm

It was said before, and I think by DL, that the Wilsons were based on the WC mock up.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:02 pm

So, in light of your interview today (which I can't wait to hear more info from), we're shelving the idea that Peter made his jacket totally independently?:

Wested was not given anything to copy. Peter told me he personally made number one and numbers 12-14. The others were made by his staff.

Edited as I said the opposite of what I meant.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:12 pm

_ wrote:Jesus... Exactly opposite. How much clearer can I be when I say that wested number 1, 12, 13, and 14 ARE based on the WC mock-up? Is there anything unclear in that statement?

I a way too tired and I cannot seem to sleep. But guys - what do I have to do to be clearer?

Okay, I read it again and realized that I wrote the opposite of what I meant (explain that one). You originally said that Peter didn't receive anything to copy . Now, in light of your interview, we know that he was given the WC to copy. Just clarifying for my own satisfaction. I have ADHD about wanting a nice, clean trail (which is why the Indy history drives me bonkers).

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:14 pm

I think _ is simply saying that they were all made independently?

I'd assume they could have minor variations between makers, but the blueprint was the same.

_, jetlag is a MOD EDIT. WATCH YOU LANGUAGE!! , but Europe is beautiful, so wait until you've made the most of it and your meetings; then maybe it would be best to start at the beginning and lay it all out with your new info. The problem is the waters are so muddied I think people are remembering clashing things all over the shop.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:36 pm

_ wrote:...Before leaving b&n, Peter (with Noel) went to Ian and checked-out the wc mock-up so Peter could keep it overnight. The mock-up was returned the next day when Ian sent a courier to get it. Peter did not submit his prototype until the third day following his visit, hence KK and others stress over having a jacket.

KK checked out the mock-up the day before leaving for France - two days before they received peters prototype. When they returned from France, Ian checked two new jackets from kk (the pos and the Cooper). Ian knew about Neil Cooper making a jacket. That was the primary hero.

Ok, so, in other words in France we have the cloth mockup, plus TWO other jackets that arrived shortly after when they arrived there, with the filming taking place and KK returning with 2 new jackets from a maker each.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:39 pm

_ wrote:YJ - jetjag? Truer words, my friend...

We owe the design to whoever at wc did the work on the mock-up. I think you get that.

This does **** - I have meetings with military types all day and I just know i'm going yo down the 4-pack of red bull in the honor bar. G-night gents. Sorry if I snapped...

Don't be a wuss - try doing the haul from Australia.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:42 pm

Some of this brings us back to Nadoolman's statement. It confirms the jackets were all based on the WC prototype, but also states the Wilson's were made from the WC prototype. So the WC prototype would have to come before the Wilson's.
It also show that there was friction between Nadoolman and 'Steven' and 'George'

I needed a decent budget to accommodate the many stunt people, stand in's, additional units, and dummies (stuffed). But the unit production manager was ruthless. It was not pretty. I had budgeted for 10 jackets and to save money I ordered them from the very reasonably priced Wilson’s House of Suede and Leather in Los Angeles who custom made them for me based on a prototype I made at Western Costume Company. This is before any of us ever went to London to begin pre production at EMI Elstree Studios.
When the jackets arrived from Wilson’s I understood they would be unusable for the film. As I tried to age the first one, the leather peeled away in my hands, immediately the color of the leather came off, and giant holes appeared. I discussed this with Steven, George and Harrison. And it was Harrison who became my ally and advocate. I simply could not use these low grade jackets – it would be impossible to wear them in stunt situations and they would never look right. Finally, after much fighting about money – which was ridiculous given that the jackets were the centerpiece of the film – and after watching Heston and Ladd sporting them on the big screen – finally I was given the OK to design and make another set of 10 at Berman’s and Nathan’s Costumier’s once we arrived in London. These were also created from the original prototype that I created for Tom Selleck, made by Reuben at Western Costume. They had an “action back” of inset pleats, a 30s pattern device, which allowed for more arm movement, and adjustable tabs at the waist.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:47 pm

So, the main idea I'm coming away from all of this is that the designer at WC (Reuben?) deserves a case of his favorite beer delivered to his door.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:48 pm

_ wrote: We owe the design to whoever at wc did the work on the mock-up. I think you get that.

...

That might be 'Reuben' at Western Costume

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:49 pm

crismans wrote:So, the main idea I'm coming away from all of this is that the designer at WC (Reuben?) deserves a case of his favorite beer delivered to his door.

that or Reuben just followed Nadoolman's instructions

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:02 pm

Since it's the only part of her statement that doesn't jive with everything else that may be _.

I can't find the MK interview but did find this from one of your posts. It realtes to teh MK interview with Nadoolman

Not quite how it works... In fact, I just discussed the topic more with MK - his recollections about his interview with Deb as well as his knowledge as to how things here actually work. To paraphrase, "She would have been out of her mind if she got on that plane from LA without having the samples she had already had made in-hand..." He confirmed that she clearly remembered getting 10 jackets from each vendor - Wilson, Western Costume, and Cooper. He also recalled that she was actually very partial to the Western Costume jacket... Again to paraphrase, she would have certainly brought these to Berman's and said, "I like this, but I don't like that..." Peter most certainly had jackets presented to him already made that he would either draw from via notes or even more likely take with him to build what she wanted. Given how big this movie was to her - I'd have to agree... Personally, I would have taken all of the jackets with me – wouldn’t any of you?

.....................

IMO - This makes it even clearer to me - given Peter's penchant for copying jackets and taking credit for all the work - that he had finished tangible samples/examples given to him with alteration notes from Deb... If it is not what happened, I'd love to hear a denial...

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:47 am

No that quote of you does not. only the Nadoolman interview i posted does.

That quote was all i could find referring to MK interviewing Nadoolman, but I think the post was newer than 2000.
I thought the idea of 10 jackets from each vendor was false. Could be that is only something she'd have liked to do.
The crux of it though is or seems to be the WC is the main 'model' or 'pattern' for the jacket.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:13 am

Quickly, as I have to actually do some work-type work today, but here's a quick time-line I'm working on to get the more organizational chart somewhat cohesive.

As the rest of the chart goes it can follow the history of the film and maybe lead to a better understanding of just what the heck happened with all these jackets.

Green represents a static condition. A change is represented in orange.

This information came mostly form the main page and I'm still building things, but I know there are many who are more visual learners and if you show them a picture there is little room for doubt. Especially on the internet where everyone reads with their own biases.

I think with the recent information and the depth of things here this could eventually be fleshed out and maybe put to rest.

What do you all think?

Dragonlady Jones · Post by **Dragonlady Jones** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:16 am

Nice work and a great idea! I definitely fall into the "visual learner" category, so I appreciate your efforts. Looks like the chart above covers Raiders. Are you going to try to do all four movies?

V/R,
DLJ

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:31 am

LOL. Thanks DLJ. I've learned it can be better to show an idea via pictures as opposed to text. This is just the time-line idea I have right now. Later I'd like to do a flow or organizational chart-like graphic. But since we are talking about time-frames of things existing, being used, etc. I went with this route first.

I'd like to try and get it right with at least one movie first. If it does work out, then maybe. We'll see I guess.

If it turns into an exercise of whizzing into the wind then I'll just pass the idea on to others...

Anyway, a bit more from the Main Page:

Post by **Mike** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:18 am

_ wrote:Just know AD may have gotten creative in his interpretation of the jacket. Anybody who's ordered a shirt from him will not be surprised.

Amen to that. Do a search for my shirt. Heavy-weight, dark. Olive pant buttons, lack of stitching through the front pleats…shall I go on.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:00 pm

_ wrote:Ok, since I cannot sleep...

The added info from my lunch with Ian.

Ian was in charge of tracking what went in and out of wardrobe and worked closely with the script supervisor.

Flash back to when the "group from the US arrived.". This included Neil. He checked out the mock-up from Ian in order to make detailed patterns. He had it for two days. This was before Peter was even brought in.

Before leaving b&n, Peter (with Noel) went to Ian and checked-out the wc mock-up so Peter could keep it overnight. The mock-up was returned the next day when Ian sent a courier to get it. Peter did not submit his prototype until the third day following his visit, hence KK and others stress over having a jacket.

KK checked out the mock-up the day before leaving for France - two days before they received peters prototype. When they returned from France, Ian checked two new jackets from kk (the pos and the Cooper). Ian knew about Neil Cooper making a jacket. That was the primary hero.

I'll fill in the rest later - I'm dozing...

So, where does this leave the whole 'Based on the James Dean jacket' scenario ???

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:33 pm

I got superseded?

Sweeeeeeeet. LOL.

Even though I didn't have all the above information at my immediate disposal, I was looking forward to working through all this.

I'm back to the wings I guess.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:01 pm

_,

Awesome! I'll bet you could even add dates (and times in some cases) to the timeline.

Was the WC pattern ever altered for HF?

Post by **Mike** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:14 pm

I believe that WC made the cloth TO Ford's specs. I think _ stated that earlier. If you notice his chart, it says WC will create a mock-up. I'm figuring this may have taken place during the actor change and the mock up was created after Ford signed on.

Dragonlady Jones · Post by **Dragonlady Jones** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:45 pm

Mountaineer wrote:I got superseded?

Sweeeeeeeet. LOL.

Even though I didn't have all the above information at my immediate disposal, I was looking forward to working through all this.

I'm back to the wings I guess.

Now, what was that quote about the best laid plans...

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:23 pm

DLJ,

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally happy to be superseded.

I was hesitant to even say anything on here owing to the years of research people had already contributed, not to mention those who have a physical closeness to the actual gear, receipts and people involved. Basically I didn't want to look like a buffoon and recreate a bad information wheel.

Somewhere back, when it was said there should be a chart of all this to help remove confusion, I thought I'd throw my hat in the ring.

Thanks again _, that's where I was hoping to go with my meager contribution to this fracas...

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:49 pm

...very clear and concise. I like it...now, Jim, just tell me WHO is on the phone?

Dragonlady Jones · Post by **Dragonlady Jones** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:42 pm

Mountaineer wrote:DLJ,

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally happy to be superseded.

I was hesitant to even say anything on here owing to the years of research people had already contributed, not to mention those who have a physical closeness to the actual gear, receipts and people involved. Basically I didn't want to look like a buffoon and recreate a bad information wheel.

Somewhere back, when it was said there should be a chart of all this to help remove confusion, I thought I'd throw my hat in the ring.

Thanks again _, that's where I was hoping to go with my meager contribution to this fracas...

No worries, I still appreciate the effort though. If you hadn't posted your work to date, _ wouldn't have reposted that timeline, I never would have seen it, you'd still be working, I'd still be confused, cats and dogs would be living together, it'd be mass hysteria!

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:37 pm

_, the timeline really helps. Quick devil's advocate question:

If the Cooper arrived in France to the BW set, why would SS have still used the POS?

I can see Ford sitting around waiting in the POS, then KK gives SS the new jacket, which gets put on Ford. Is that possible?

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:31 pm

Sheer guess work here, but it was probably due to contractual obligation.

The POS was made by request of DN and KK through B&N.

Spielberg had Cooper make one for him as a backup jacket in case he didn't like what came out of B&N (remember, he was already ticked at DN because of DN spending big bucks for 10 Wilson's he had not agreed to have made).

The POS was used once, dismissed, and then Spielberg substituted the Cooper which he HAD seen and had a direct hand in creation. The Wested arrived on the day of the shoot, so it all kind of overlaps at that point.

Look where the Cooper shows up on the timeline in relation to when the POS was made. I have a feeling ANYTHING that DN handed Spielberg would have been rejected by the first day of filming. He wanted something he KNEW he would like, and he had the Cooper waiting in the wings when the shoot began. The Wested was still 'iffy' as it wasn't on set yet, so he had an ace in the hole.

I believe by this point the clash of personalities rather than logistics entered into the final equation.

The fishbone diagram sort of supports the theory.

Regards! Michaelson

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:55 pm

Good stuff! I wonder (and I'm not sure if we can ever actually nail this one down) what led to the switch to Peter's prototype over the Coopers? The Cooper is brought out and Ford wears it in the Imam's house scenes. Then the other jacket becomes the main hero for most of the movie (with the Coopers seeing sporadic duty) until we get to Hawaii. I wonder why the switch and then the switch back? It may be something as simple as Ford like the fit of the new jacket better but I'd like to know for sure.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:03 pm

_ wrote:Yep. He had a couple agendas. He wanted to nail DN when she did not have a jacket. Not real noble, but he was tired of the @#$%. What he told me was that he was loaded for bear, saw a jacket on fords back and let it ride. After the shoot he decided to switch from a public flogging to a private one. KK took the bullet for her boss. Then SS instructed KK that DN as out of the loop and he was in.

Not a bad guess then, eh?

Regards! Michaelson

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:23 am

If anything, I think the differences between my shot at mapping this history via the information as I read it on the main page and that of _'s chart show why there is so much confusion amongst us outsiders looking in.

Specifically I'm talking about the WC mock up and when and who it was made for.

Anyway, I may keep up with this, filling in information as I can.

I will say that as a fan of these films, I appreciate the detail being fleshed out in this thread.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:11 am

Awesome...

The scale may not be perfect, but the information is concise and easily understood.

Thanks.

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:33 am

_ wrote:Heading out for a night on the town with our hosts.

Sounds exciting! Make sure you get some pics of you and your girl while you're out there to give props to our European gearheads! Germany and the UK rock!

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:07 pm

okay, alittle LC ''convince me'' discussion.

why oh why did wested have such problems recreating the LC jacket when they obviously remembered the jacket pattern for the movie 'cuffs' with slater 3 years after LC. you clearly see that the jacket is made from the LC pattern but they forgot to add snaps.

and if my memory serves me correctly Peter confirmed to me two years back that they made the cuffs jacket from the LC pattern...

so, they had it 98% right after LC, but some years later after cuffs, the LC pattern ended up as a ''raiders'' cut with snaps until CS got them back on track again....

you can even see in the picture above that it has the big beefy pocket flaps the LC jacket had.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:38 pm

I know they are hit and miss. I have played that game too.....

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:07 am

If they were the 'large' German Beer glasses I remember they were almost one imperial Gallon in size

Were you forced/obliged to partake in snuff after dinner?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:45 am

_ wrote:..........

Snuff? Is THAT what the locals were doing?

LOL Probably

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:23 am

KUFFS:
The REAL Reason a Supplier Should Be Backballed

...oh, sorry. Wrong thread.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:26 am

_ wrote: We are headed to Munich this weekend...

If you have time and an interest, they shot the Great Escape in Fussen just south of Munich. When I was there I managed to stumble across the places they shot the McQueen motorcycle chase in the fields, etc. Very cool.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:29 am

Is Cuffs an LFL movie?

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:01 am

Don't think so.

IndyBrit · Post by **IndyBrit** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:08 am

Sorry for missing all the staff meetings... so having read this though the esssence is that there is nothing, in fact, to support Peter's claim that he made the hero jacket for Raiders. ( this includes the production blue book.)

That's a shame. I like the bloke, met him a few times, had good service from him and have three of his jackets.

So my my new line in the pub is now ,in answer to the question: Is that the indy jacket?...' yes ,sort of.. made by Wested for Raiders but sumitted a bit to late to be the hero... might have made it into a few shots here and there... oh they did get the LC contract.... I think"

My old line was easier. "yes. this is the company that made the jacket for raiders"

Having said that I still love my Wested jackets.

At least the story with my AB is clear.

Post by **Mike** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:22 am

I think the line "the company that made the jacket for Raiders" still works. Its just that they're not the only one. Modifying one or two words from that statement, it still holds true. "…company that made jackets for Raiders."

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:18 pm

_ wrote:That's fair. I have no reason to believe that this specific representation by Peter was made with an intent to deceive. It is probably the only one I feel that way about, but frankly - and as said before - his jackets get caught in the friction between Deb and Steven.

Which representation?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:44 pm

OK that makes it clear.
Going back many years the claim has been that the jacket and it's design were entirely him, which is quite different from simply making jackets.

IndyBrit · Post by **IndyBrit** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:23 pm

Mike wrote:I think the line "the company that made the jacket for Raiders" still works. Its just that they're not the only one. Modifying one or two words from that statement, it still holds true. "…company that made jackets for Raiders."

thanks for that i'll go back to my orginal line in the pub and continue to hold Peter in the high esteem that I always had

BaptisteTheFool · Post by **BaptisteTheFool** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:33 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:okay, alittle LC ''convince me'' discussion.

why oh why did wested have such problems recreating the LC jacket when they obviously remembered the jacket pattern for the movie 'cuffs' with slater 3 years after LC. you clearly see that the jacket is made from the LC pattern but they forgot to add snaps.

and if my memory serves me correctly Peter confirmed to me two years back that they made the cuffs jacket from the LC pattern...

so, they had it 98% right after LC, but some years later after cuffs, the LC pattern ended up as a ''raiders'' cut with snaps until CS got them back on track again....

you can even see in the picture above that it has the big beefy pocket flaps the LC jacket had.

Woah-- been ages since I've seen Kuffs. Was not aware Slater wore an Indy jacket in that film...

...maybe it's time I revisit it. I do have the DVD somewhere...