Some days, you just can't win....

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:45 am

I mailed out a Raiders fedora, to a non member here and this is what he emailed me back, that I just read this morning.

Hi Steve --

I was surprised and happy to see my hat waiting at the front door yesterday
when I got home. Until I put it on. Oh, it fit fine ... but then I looked
into a mirror. Imagine seeing the hat from above, holding the brim so that
the front of it points to 12 O'clock. However, the crown -- center crease,
side creases and that crisp ridge down the front -- all point to just before
11 O'clock. About 1 1/2" off to the left. You must have done hundreds of
hats by now. How could you even do that? Especially for what you charge. I'm
stunned indeed.

Some days you just can't win!

I of course, emailed him back and explained to him the ways of the Raiders fedora. Hopefully now, he might appreciate this hat a little more.

But, I get a feeling he won't. I always turn Raider fedoras UNLESS requested not to do so. One should never assume anything though, and I should not assume that everyone who orders a Raiders fedora, actually knows this hat, like we do here. But, this is the first time this has ever happened to me, and I can see now, that unless the customer is a COW member that I know, I will have to explain the ways of the Raiders fedora when it is ordered. This guy thought I had botched up his hat!! Live and learn I reckon. OH, and he paid 250 for the hat!

Fedora

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:54 am

DOH!

Live and (hopefully) learn!

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:55 am

Sorry Steve to laugh but it's kinda funny. I had that happen to me not to long ago. If you do tell them up front it is opening a hugh can of worms trying to explain what the turn is.

Did he reply to your e-mail telling him about the turn?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:59 am

"The hat is brown."

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:00 am

_ wrote:That's a great story - and a fine illustration of our collective dimentia...

"Why's the crease off center?"
"I think you shipped me a woman's jacket, because the zipper's wrong"
blah, blah, blah...

I didn't think of the zipper.

very funny.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:46 am

Sorry Steve to laugh but it's kinda funny. I had that happen to me not to long ago. If you do tell them up front it is opening a hugh can of worms trying to explain what the turn is.

Did he reply to your e-mail telling him about the turn?

Well, it is funny. But not to him! Oh, I can recall a few years ago, now that you mentioned it, trying to explain the turn to someone. I think I left him very puzzled!

If I recall correctly, he could not grasp what I was talking about. Not sure what I did with his hat though. I may have used insurance and not turned the hat, or put in a loose crease where he could correct it. Been too long.

And no, not heard back yet. May not. He may be embarrassed, now after chiding me for poor work!

Fedora

sithspawn · Post by **sithspawn** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:57 am

I've been a member for a couple years and a lurker when one was able to lurk and I still don't understand what a turn is.

But I have great faith in Steve knowing I am getting as a close to the Indy hat as possible.

I guess you can't please everyone.

TenuredProfessor · Post by **TenuredProfessor** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:14 am

Classic, Steve!! My dad said my Henry was 'a bit off' as well when I let him try it on. I guess some people just haven't been 'turned on' to the turn

Local Land Surveyor · Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:42 am

This is why the masses think that a Dorfman Pacific is just fine.

I do hope he comes around to the reason why you did this.
PSSSS...Steve..... just between you and me........ reblock it on the "old block". He'll never know the difference.

LLS

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:06 pm

reblock it on the "old block". He'll never know the difference.

Or even make it a TOD hat. He may not know the difference. Not knocking the guy though. We are just real particular here with our hats. To an outsider, this stuff may as well be ancient Greek. But I have thought about it, and it must have been a shock to see the turn on a hat. The off center crease....the warped brim! He must be thinking I must be suffering from mad hatter's disease. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall, when he noticed this on the hat. I doubt I was his fav person at that moment. He probably thought if I couldn't get a crease in straight, the rest of the hat was bad too!

I think many times when a non gear guy orders, he just thinks all hats are the Raiders fedora. So, he may have been thinking of the CS hat, or even the LC hat when he ordered, but specified Raiders, in a generic way.

I will offer to take out the turn for him though. Hate to spend more time on this one hat, but you gotta do what you gotta do to please folks. Which at times can involve doing back flips. But that's how the biz is. Or any biz really. As it should be. Fedora

Digger4Glory · Post by **Digger4Glory** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:35 pm

Well, I'm sorry you have to deal with someone who did not take the time to do any research before his purchase. Even if you dont know what the term "the turn" means, just seeing Raiders its clear that hat has a special look.
An unfortunate thing when you can't capture everyone with your art. Especially when they seem perplexed by it. I guess that goes back to what you were talking about in various threads about selling "perceptions".
I think your hats are the "correct perception" as do almost anyone I speak with. The testimonies here are evidence of that.
No matter what you do in life there is always someone who wont be happy with it. I'm sure compared to the ratio of happy customers your probably still running at 99% satisfaction.
With that said, and from my own experience in various fields, I never liked anyone disatisfied. When they are and it's from something your proud of, then it kinda rubs your ego the wrong way. Part of you wants to say, "hey, want do you mean you don't think this is great?"

You just want everyone to be happy..

In my opinion this gentleman is guilty of not watching Raiders at least a hundred times.

For if he did... he would have seen the light!

maboot38 · Post by **maboot38** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:43 pm

How awkward! Please let us know how he responds!

Did you email him screen captures of Indy so he can see what the turn looks like? (Not that you should have to)

Digger4Glory · Post by **Digger4Glory** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:47 pm

and fedora, if you want to see a happy customer, just reread some of my e-mails about the hats I have from you!

$\:D/$ I pour the sweet on so much, its like sugar on a cavity!!! $\:D/$

Mitch LaRue · Post by **Mitch LaRue** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:13 pm

Just read the letter Steve posted... then read all of the responses from our Members here... then went back to the start and re-read the letter from the dissatisfied customer (and tried to do so with a fresh eyes and an appreciation for the customer's perspective)...

but
NOPE...

couldn't do it...

I could not muster up sympathy for this guy.

I couldn't manage it because this is a guy who ordered something in the first place with seemingly no appreciation for (or working knowledge of) the item

AND he paid only $250.00 for one of these amazing hats that Steve still delivers 100% on
AND (worst) of all, the unappreciative sonovagun is AHEAD of me in "line"!

Steve, I dearly hope that (even) after you explained the facts of life (as they apply to Hats With Turns) to this guy that he hasn't responded with an ungrateful "Ummm... naaah, I think I'd rather have a refund"...
But I suppose you can still take some consolation that it wasn't a letter saying "Hey, I always thought the Indiana Jones Cowboy hat was made out of LEATHER! What gives?"

*sigh*

maboot38 · Post by **maboot38** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:46 pm

Mitch LaRue wrote:Just read the letter Steve posted... then read all of the responses from our Members here... then went back to the start and re-read the letter from the dissatisfied customer (and tried to do so with a fresh eyes and an appreciation for the customer's perspective)...

but
NOPE...

couldn't do it...

I could not muster up sympathy for this guy.

I couldn't manage it because this is a guy who ordered something in the first place with seemingly no appreciation for (or working knowledge of) the item
AND he paid only $250.00 for one of these amazing hats that Steve still delivers 100% on
AND (worst) of all, the unappreciative sonovagun is AHEAD of me in "line"!

Steve, I dearly hope that (even) after you explained the facts of life (as they apply to Hats With Turns) to this guy that he hasn't responded with an ungrateful "Ummm... naaah, I think I'd rather have a refund"...
But I suppose you can still take some consolation that it wasn't a letter saying "Hey, I always thought the Indiana Jones Cowboy hat was made out of LEATHER! What gives?"

*sigh*

Steve, if he returns it to you, and it is a size 58, I'll give you $50 for your "crooked" hat!

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:05 pm

Get the sucker to send you back the hat and post it here for sale. See how quickly it gets snapped up.

That'll teach him!

BaptisteTheFool · Post by **BaptisteTheFool** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:15 pm

Kt Templar wrote:Get the sucker to send you back the hat and post it here for sale. See how quickly it gets snapped up.

That'll teach him!

Haha. Yeah-- if he doesn't want it, I'll take it!

Wish I could afford one of Steve's hats...

IndyBrit · Post by **IndyBrit** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:31 pm

love it

having just picked up one of Steve's master works from another member here one of the first things I did was check for the turn. It was there!

Will post pics soon when I figure out how to do it. The hat was new and had not been touched since shipping so it was simply a case of gently pushing the orginal bash back in

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:27 pm

Local Land Surveyor wrote:This is why the masses think that a Dorfman Pacific is just fine.
I do hope he comes around to the reason why you did this.
PSSSS...Steve..... just between you and me........ reblock it on the "old block". He'll never know the difference.

LLS

Why not make it out of leather.

VP · Post by VP » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:42 pm

Leather is cruel, use Soviet pleather.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:08 pm

VP wrote:Leather is cruel, use Soviet pleather.

What?

Bruce Wayne · Post by **Bruce Wayne** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:15 pm

VP wrote:Leather is cruel, use Soviet pleather.

In Soviet Russia, leather wears you.

Forrest For the Trees · Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:15 am

I'm the odd man out here, but I think the turn should be explained to customers. Maybe it is on your website; I haven't checked lately. For true diehard Indy fans, obviously the turn is a distinctive characteristic of the Raiders fedora. For someone who just wants the hat that looks like Harrison Ford's from Raiders, though, the turn is not something the customer will be aware of, necessarily.

And really, it is a bit unusual for a hat to be worn crooked, and creased that way. I know, it is one of the charms of the Raiders fedora, but weird nonetheless.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:47 am

http://www.penmanhats.com/Indy_s_Closet.html

I'm sorry to say this but a lot of people don't read. This is not directed at anyone.

Guillaume · Post by **Guillaume** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:24 am

The "turn" with its warped brim doesn't suit me particularly well, so I let Marc make me a hat without the "turn", but with a turned bow. The perfect compromise for me personally!

Forrest For the Trees · Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:09 am

Bending Oak, that's great that you explain your product and the turn so well on your website. I think it is necessary for non gear-heads to have that information. That way, if they come whining that the hat is crooked, you can say, well, it is described on my site.

I guess I'm just surprised that folks are so shocked that a customer would be confused/upset to get a hat that seems to be creased off-center by over an inch. Honestly, if I wasn't a member here, I wouldn't have known about the turn either. I mean, sure, watch Raiders enough times, and it is clear that there is something unusual going on with the hat's brim, but knowing that it is dimensionally cut and turned to get that swooping effect, well, that takes some research. Or at least a very good product description.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:16 am

Well, I'm one of those old time customers that Steve has that does NOT go the 'turn route', so we're out here. As proof, check my avatar and my latest AB masterpiece I'm wearing. No turn.

Oh, occasionally he forgets and I get one with a turn. I still wear it, but it's not something I have ever requested to be done.

The 'turn' may be SA, but it ain't 'Michaelson' accurate.

Regards! Michaelson

raider 57 · Post by **raider 57** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:25 am

Sorry to hear this one Steve. Amazing.
Not sure of your lead times right now, but I would think the customer would have heard/read of "the turn" while waiting for his Hat!
Does he have internet access?
Another thing, I wear my AB all the time. Never once had anyone comment, " Hey, your hat's crooked!"

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:30 am

I have talked to this great customer a couple times. First, he is a great guy. He does tv work, and loves the Indy films. But, he never noticed the pecularness of the Raiders fedora, although he admitted he was so into watching Indy get out of tights it distracted him.

In the end he was appreciative that I explained the turn to him,and for now he is gonna wear it as is. If he does not like it, he has the skills to recrease it, with it centered on his head. This man could have given me a really hard time, but was generous and patient enough to take the time to understand. He actually came here once and learned of me, but isn't a member.

So this story has a very happy ending, for him and I. And it reminded me once again that non gear guys, really don't know the finer details. He does now!!

Fedora

raider 57 · Post by **raider 57** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:39 am

That is very good news Steve!

fenris · Post by **fenris** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:40 am

Glad to hear he understood.

For me, I would not want a hat with a turn. I dunno... I guess I'm not that comfortable with it. I did try it on my hat, being a round oval (very round), by the time the brim had that "turned" characteristic, the ribbon was almost in front of my head and in no way flattering.

But it was pretty funny reading this thread.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:44 am

Michaelson wrote:Well, I'm one of those old time customers that Steve has that does NOT go the 'turn route', so we're out here. As proof, check my avatar and my latest AB masterpiece I'm wearing. No turn.

...The 'turn' may be SA, but it ain't 'Michaelson' accurate.

Nor is it "binkmeister" accurate. I guess that makes two of us, old friend.

VP · Post by VP » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:45 am

Michaelson wrote:As proof, check my avatar and my latest AB masterpiece I'm wearing. No turn.

Big pic: http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv32 ... /jess1.jpg

Haven't seen this one before:

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:46 am

Your mustache is turned, though.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:47 am

The 'turn' may be SA, but it ain't 'Michaelson' accurate.

And, I know Michaelson's preferences as well as my own!!!

Heck, he even had his own personal block, that I use for him. Which was the gray CS block as seen in the last film! Michaelson was wearing this blockshape way before Indy did.

And was the only one to do so. And Michaelson's block was the exact same block as used on Ford's gray hat. Both are really a 7 3/8 size, instead of the accepted 7 1/4. Fedora

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:49 am

Michaelson wrote:Well, I'm one of those old time customers that Steve has that does NOT go the 'turn route', so we're out here. As proof, check my avatar and my latest AB masterpiece I'm wearing. No turn.

Oh, occasionally he forgets and I get one with a turn. I still wear it, but it's not something I have ever requested to be done.

The 'turn' may be SA, but it ain't 'Michaelson' accurate.

Regards! Michaelson

I understand your point but if you are trying to replicate a SA Raiders hat you don't leave out a very important part of the hat and expect the customer to ask for the turn. To me the turn is normal and if you want the hat without the hat, ask. I would have never made that color hat with the turn( the one in your avatar) nor would I make a seaplane grey travel indy hat with a turn. Why, because that hat didn't have it and we are trying to replicate the hat as close as possible.

The funny thing is you can explain the thing to death on your site ( meaning the hat maker) and people will still miss it. People still send me e-mail asking for prices and they have already been to my site. A lot of people don't read ( or use the search button as you know all to well)

I look at it this way. If you go to someone for a SA Indy Raiders hat from Steve or anyone else I would expect a turned hat. It's not like you can't ask for it differently. The customer needs to do his homework but sometimes that doesn't happen.

It sounds like it worked out alright anyway. Thats good to hear Steve.

Ok, enough of that. Gotta go back and continue to sew........................................... ouch......................................

...................ouch..................................ouch.................................ouch..............

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:30 pm

I understand your point as well, BOak, but I've received hats back from Steve with the turn that WEREN'T Raiders hats in color OR style. I don't even LIKE the Raiders style (and have posted that opinion ad nasium since 1996).

Steve has exclusively used the same block on my hats since the beginning of his hatmaking career (which the one in my avatar was blocked on, and the one he used for Ford's travel hat in CS). That supports your point above, BOak...but like I said, I've received them back with the turn installed too, and it's kind of odd looking being made from that particular block, at least to my eye.

But we're getting off track here....

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:49 pm

I think we still are on target with this. I know you don't like the "turn" and every one here knows that. You have to look at the side of the hatter/seller. You are in the biz because of how well you can replicate this hat. That includes the turn.

I understand your point but I am talking about a person who makes and sells hats and people come to you wanted the most SA Raiders hat. We all know how much work Steve alone has put into trying to replicate the tiny details. When someone comes to you asking for the "Raiders hat" and they say they want the most SA hat possible, the turn goes into the hat unless they say most SA without the turn.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:00 pm

I'd totally agree with you 100%, my friend, but in this case the fellow was NOT an Indy fanatic or even a member of the Indy community. He just ordered a Raiders hat from Steve's webpage. He got something he didn't expect, nor particularily liked (as we understand from his email). There's absolutely nothing in the exchange shown above that this fellow asked for any such thing as exact SA detailing. He just ordered a hat.

We, being those 'fanatics', know about the 'turn', and fully expect our hat makers to re-create that minutea detail unless we tell them otherwise...but an outsider will be surprised when it shows up on their doorstep.

Let's face it...it's something that's done that you don't see outside this small group of hobbiests. If it had been someone from, say, THIS community who knew better, if I were Steve I'd tell him he should have told him differently when he ordered the hat in the first place. This was not the case. This guy was an 'outsider'.

The entire point of this thread by Steve was to point out that an assumption bit him in the butt. We're so close the subject material, we forget there are others out there who don't CARE the hat is turned, let alone even KNOW it's turned. They just want a 'Raiders' hat....and we know they call them ALL 'Raiders' hats, no matter WHICH film they favor. It's all the same to them.

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:21 pm

I see your point and the reason steve posted this thread. I have the info on my site about the turn but still get people a little thrown when they get the hat. Some People just don't take the time to read and that was my point. I have found you can write it all over the place but some just don't take the time to read.

I guess part of me wants to pull out that old saying " let the buyer beware"

" let the buyer beware he got a SA hat"

John

shagger999uk · Post by **shagger999uk** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:49 pm

Fedora wrote:I have talked to this great customer a couple times. First, he is a great guy. He does tv work, and loves the Indy films. But, he never noticed the pecularness of the Raiders fedora, although he admitted he was so into watching Indy get out of tights it distracted him.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:02 pm

shagger999uk wrote:
Fedora wrote:I have talked to this great customer a couple times. First, he is a great guy. He does tv work, and loves the Indy films. But, he never noticed the pecularness of the Raiders fedora, although he admitted he was so into watching Indy get out of tights it distracted him.

Haha, I noticed that little slip-up as well.

Glad you got things sorted out with this guy, Steve. Be sure to tell us if he ever writes again and tells you his final conclusion about the Turn. -M

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:08 pm

Michaelson wrote:I'd totally agree with you 100%, my friend, but in this case the fellow was NOT an Indy fanatic or even a member of the Indy community. He just ordered a Raiders hat from Steve's webpage. He got something he didn't expect, nor particularily liked (as we understand from his email). There's absolutely nothing in the exchange shown above that this fellow asked for any such thing as exact SA detailing. He just ordered a hat.

We, being those 'fanatics', know about the 'turn', and fully expect our hat makers to re-create that minutea detail unless we tell them otherwise...but an outsider will be surprised when it shows up on their doorstep.

Let's face it...it's something that's done that you don't see outside this small group of hobbiests. If it had been someone from, say, THIS community who knew better, if I were Steve I'd tell him he should have told him differently when he ordered the hat in the first place. This was not the case. This guy was an 'outsider'.

The entire point of this thread by Steve was to point out that an assumption bit him in the butt. We're so close the subject material, we forget there are others out there who don't CARE the hat is turned, let alone even KNOW it's turned. They just want a 'Raiders' hat....and we know they call them ALL 'Raiders' hats, no matter WHICH film they favor. It's all the same to them.

Regards! Michaelson

Kind of splitting hairs here, but I don't know if it was an assumption as much as just a standard way of making a raiders hat, whether the customer likes it or not, that's how the hat is made or bashed, if they don't like it or were surprised due to ignorance, fine, it can be adjusted. I think if there was an assumption, it was the one made by the buyer and he thought it bit him in the rear, but really it was an issue regarding his familiarity with what he ordered with that style of hat. Glad it turned out dandy and is now just a humorous conversation topic for us here. -Sounds like you need a contract written up by a lawyer and then administered by an agent who visits the person's home to address the particulars of the hat with a chart/powerpoint presentation before signing a purchase contract. (That idea would apply doubly to any leather jacket purchase

) I guess everything should be explicitly disclosed like in a real estate deal.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:54 am

BendingOak wrote:I see your point and the reason steve posted this thread. I have the info on my site about the turn but still get people a little thrown when they get the hat. Some People just don't take the time to read and that was my point. I have found you can write it all over the place but some just don't take the time to read.

I guess part of me wants to pull out that old saying " let the buyer beware"

" let the buyer beware he got a SA hat"

John

Amen to that, Brother! That can be proven right here on this site. Folks do things all OVER this place that are totally contrary to posted rules and supplied information that we have to deal with day in and day out. We STILL get the old 'deer in the headlights' reaction when you point out a specific rule that had been posted for well over 5 years!

Point well taken!

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:00 am

although he admitted he was so into watching Indy get out of tights it distracted him.

I never thought of the double entendre!! Now THAT is funny. Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:03 am

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:38 pm

The image of Indy getting out of his tights, is NOT something I tend to think of!

But hey, YIJ, wore tights in that one installment, did he not? The one that he was on stage, perhaps in France, doing a play? (need to find that set and rewatch these! Good stuff)

Well, we have moved from a surprise hat, to Indy in tights!

Only on Club Obi Wan.....

Fedora

IndianaChris711 · Post by **IndianaChris711** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:11 pm

Fedora wrote:The image of Indy getting out of his tights, is NOT something I tend to think of!

But hey, YIJ, wore tights in that one installment, did he not? The one that he was on stage, perhaps in France, doing a play? (need to find that set and rewatch these! Good stuff)

Well, we have moved from a surprise hat, to Indy in tights! Only on Club Obi Wan..... Fedora

Maybe this could be the next Indy film, instead of Men in Tights, its Indy in Tights.

Not sure they can pull that off. Anyway nice to know he is satisfied with the hat, glad he knows he can change the center dent if he wishes to. Anyway glad things turned out for the better it sounds like.

IndianaChris

Mitch LaRue · Post by **Mitch LaRue** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:13 pm

IndianaChris711 wrote:Anyway nice to know he is satisfied with the hat, glad he knows he can change the center dent if he wishes to. Anyway glad things turned out for the better it sounds like.

Yeah, same over here...
I was miffed about this guy in the beginning (and probably still would be if he hadn't been receptive to the explanation Steve gave him)... but since this guy seemed open to considering it a lesson learned, I guess instead of being "

" at this guy, I'm putting myself instead into the "

" category.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:34 pm

Eh, I don't think you can really hold the "average" Indy fan at fault for not knowing about the turn. As was touched on earlier, that's why Disney, et al, can sell so many DPs.