Somebody convince me...

[Dragonlady Jones]

.....
Isn't that 'V' stitch referred to as a 'K' stitch? I hope so, otherwise I'll be totally confused (instead of the mostly confused state I'm in now!).

Yes also referred to as a 'K' stitch. a 'V' in a box

Whew...thanks!

[Holt]

It's been a long day, but I believe wher I see Westeds are in the Raven, the Wing, and deep in the temple.

if we see the same jacket in the wing scene then this is probably the wos souls jacket in my screen still. the same jacket with the busted open pocket seam. I believe that this is probably the wested.

[crismans]

Here's a lightened pic of the scene Holt is discussing just so people can look it over (as I've done in the past).



Again, I'm not claiming by any means to be an expert, but I've put quite a bit of time into looking at various stills and grabs (and I know others that have put in an inordinate amount of time) and I see two jackets that seem virtually identical other than various nuances with the leather. I'm not saying that there aren't pattern differences but I'm really afraid that someone's going to have to point them out to me.

[RCSignals]

It's been a long day, but I believe wher I see Westeds are in the Raven, the Wing, and deep in the temple.

if we see the same jacket in the wing scene then this is probably the wos souls jacket in my screen still. the same jacket with the busted open pocket seam. I believe that this is probably the wested.

That would be the jacket that is identical to the jacket attributed to Cooper, just different 'striations'

It has to have been made by the same maker or to an exact pattern by someone else. We've been told Peter did not copy the Cooper and was not given a pattern. His 4 'good' jackets were his first prototype and the three that followed the ten. That prototype was made apparently with out input from the WC or the Cooper.
It is highly unlikely the 4 jackets and 'Cooper' are identical if produced in isolation from each other. So unless you see two different jackets in those scenes or a jacket was in fact copied exactly (other than striations) you are seeing one of two 'same' jackets.

[Holt]

boy, im so sick of reading that word 'striations'

there is more to a jacket then that...
I think the whole jacket looks different then the hawaii jacket. different pattern. not much, but it looks different. more baggy. different thickness to the leather. the whole jacket 'acts' in a different way..

just look at the picture crismans posted. it has a wested wibe over it....

but, of course, I can be wrong...

[sebas]

Has anyone ever attempted to map out or diagram a sort of "Jacket Family Tree" or organization chart? It'd be interesting to visualize the jacket's different "lineages" and incarnations.

[Mountaineer]

Has anyone ever attempted to map out or diagram a sort of "Jacket Family Tree" or organization chart? It'd be interesting to visualize the jacket's different "lineages" and incarnations.

This is something I would be interested in doing if I had concrete info. Not hearsay or belief(s) based on film viewings, which I think has been the major, water-muddying, problem over all these years. Unfortunately, that's all the access that most of us have. Especially early in this "hobby".

Much like "real" research, I'd rather have the receipts, first-hand accounts and not interpretations of second and third parties to go on. If any chart itself is based on shoddy information then it isn't any better than what preceded it. It would be shouted down as bunk too. Again the "fact" vs. "truth" argument...

I'm very appreciative of the years of COW postings and the works that came before, but it would take major digging on all the many pages and sifting through the many arguments on what we see on video, in pictures, etc. Quite daunting, because you risk hurting feelings if you overlook something someone put their heart into. Not out of malice either, just oversight, due to the rabbit-holes these threads sometimes fall down.

Aside from the first-hand things that have been reported there is much in the way of looking at video and pictures and, I think we'd all admit, that can be very deceiving. Making visual "facts" into an illusion of something else is the purpose of Hollywood; i.e. aging a new hat or jacket to look worn for years. I think this is what _ is meaning when he says the debate at this point has people chasing their tails.

But back to the chart itself, if my staff time in the Army taught me one thing office/computer-wise, it's how to be a PowerPoint Ranger. Charting this kind of thing out, again, based on facts, would be pretty much second nature at this point.

[crismans]

Looking at striations and other visual cues of the leather is one way of determining different jackets. I might get tired of the terminology myself, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a valid way of determining what jacket we're seeing.

I am certainly willing to believe that there are two distinct jackets. But I admit that I don't see two distinct jackets. I need someone who sees these differences to point them out to me (as those of us who see two jackets with the same pattern but different variations in leather have tried to do). List these differences so we can discuss them.

[binkmeisterRick]

Much like "real" research, I'd rather have the receipts, first-hand accounts and not interpretations of second and third parties to go on.

But there are receipts and first-hand accounts based on what _ has been able to have access to. I think it would be possible to do a family tree of jackets based upon receipts and timelines, but the discrepancies would be in putting actual photos of those jackets on that tree. THAT is the sticking point. There is real proof on who made jackets when and where, but folks are trying to pinpoint what these jackets look like and which ones were used in what scene.

[IndianaChris711]

this one, because the lining 'acts' in a different way then what shiny nylon lining would do. the wrinkles and charcteristics are of cotton not nylon/silk.

I believe this is the same jacket as the wos 'pumping gaseline' jacket and the 'haha son of a b....' jacket.

when I said that I believe the wested is the ''wos'' jacket I didnt mean the famous in front of the cobra jacket i ment the jacket explained above...




this is cotton silesia lining.
Silesia: ''polished cotton''

Here's a lightened pic of the scene Holt is discussing just so people can look it over (as I've done in the past).



Again, I'm not claiming by any means to be an expert, but I've put quite a bit of time into looking at various stills and grabs (and I know others that have put in an inordinate amount of time) and I see two jackets that seem virtually identical other than various nuances with the leather. I'm not saying that there aren't pattern differences but I'm really afraid that someone's going to have to point them out to me.

edit: and this jacket has a different look to it then the imam/hawaii jacket. not much but alittle. the leather is thicker aswell and the lining is cotton.
Like I said, I believe this is the wested.

I like these pics, first of all I agree with Holt and crismans here in the Well of Souls scene, that has to be a Wested, that is definately cotton lining, nylon or polyester would really shine, I have a nylon lining inside an old jacket and it would really gleam if there was light. It does look polished but that is what silesia is a very polished cotton. Good photo Holt, very great shot of the lining there.

If you look at crismans pic the wrinkles are very similar to my wested when I wear my jacket, especially fords left arm or to us looking at it, his right. I think the Wested's were used as _ has pointed out, when the jacket was probably going to be damaged or could get damaged and they did not want to take a chance on ruining the hero jacket. Just my opinion really, carry on.

IndianaChris

[Mountaineer]

Thanks Bink. You got what I was ultimately meaning yet failed to actually say.

Very concisely too.

THAT'S why you're a moderator...

(BTW. Happy Birthday.)

[Yojimbo Jones]

The whole lining thing as a market is MUCH too vague IMO.

However, I think if we can tease apart which is which, and how many jackets there are, identify them to a degree that people can't come up with a better breakdown, THEN see how that tallies with production timelines, suppliers, etc, things should fall into place. It's like we've got a jigsaw with a few pieces missing, a few duplicates, and a few from a different one altogether.

A lot of people have been playing with this puzzle over the years & gotten everything mixed up. But if we get enough right, the wrong stuff shouldn't matter.

With the right caps and photos, the first step is possible. I think a few of us are almost there. Just need to confirm a few things.

[binkmeisterRick]

Thanks Bink. You got what I was ultimately meaning yet failed to actually say.

Very concisely too.

THAT'S why you're a moderator...

(BTW. Happy Birthday.)

Actually, it's my work release program. I work, and they won't release the hounds on me. Thanks for the wishes!

[ANZAC_1915]

How about a list of scenes, shooting locations (in chronological shooting order) and potential hero jackets?

[crismans]

I like these pics, first of all I agree with Holt and crismans here in the Well of Souls scene, that has to be a Wested

Just to clarify, while I respect Holt's opinion, I'm not on board that the WoS is a Wested yet. I just provided a lightened picture of the scene he was talking about for discussion purposes.

[RCSignals]

boy, im so sick of reading that word 'striations'

there is more to a jacket then that...
I think the whole jacket looks different then the hawaii jacket. different pattern. not much, but it looks different. more baggy. different thickness to the leather. the whole jacket 'acts' in a different way..

just look at the picture crismans posted. it has a wested wibe over it....

but, of course, I can be wrong...

Holt you are going to have to describe what about the wos jacket makes you thinkit is differnt in pattern enough to be a 'Wested'. Youve said it is not that differnt and tha ### has a 'Wested wibe', and you think the lining is cotton. that doesn't say much.

The pattern is as I said, the same as the 'Cooper' Imans/Hawaii jacket. Too much the same to be a different jacket from a different maker made in isolation of each other.

Just the 'striations' are different Sorry Holt, striations are a fact of Raiders jacket life.

[IndianaChris711]

I like these pics, first of all I agree with Holt and crismans here in the Well of Souls scene, that has to be a Wested

Just to clarify, while I respect Holt's opinion, I'm not on board that the WoS is a Wested yet. I just provided a lightened picture of the scene he was talking about for discussion purposes.

Sorry I made that assumption , it kind of sounded like it. I do that sometimes, very sorry, but your pictures is very nice, it shows wrinkles just my wested, I just need someone to stand on a ladder to get the same pic. Obviously it won't be exactly the same, but it is extremely similar in the way that jacket drapes just like my wested.

IndianaChris

[Mountaineer]

Shoot me full of holes, but this is what I think we need to really nail the coffin shut. As much as we can do that with what we have available to us.

Forgive me for the fan-boy set-up, that could be easily changed. Same with deleting / renaming / adding the titles of the "topics". This is a screencap of what I came up with quick via MS PowerPoint.

What do you all think?

[RCSignals]

Maybe it's walking around London's sights and sounds, but I sorta feel this has stepped through the looking glass.

Despite the undoubted skills of many of you with dvd's and grabbng screens, thinking conclusively that you can always tell jackets are identical or that linings are one material or another? It's a falacy. It is hubris. If you could do this, we would have done it 10, 20, #### 29 years ago.

No offense, but I think y'all are chasing your tails a bit. Conclusively being black-and-white on their basis is a mistake, IMHO. Fullers earth, lighting, odd use of one jacket g's another between takes. The effect of the complete digitalization of the analog footage back in 2000.

This is my opinion. Take it or leave it. But I think that thing you may be chasing is you tail.

Catching a cab - no idea where she's taking me but I hear a "cha-ching" in my future...

Sorry _, I think that is too dismissive.

What we have most of is photographic evidence, and unlike 10, 20, #### 29 years ago today it can be examined for detail as it never could previously. that said it must be examined closely, and all the things you mention, fuller's earth, lighting etc taken in to consideration.
Photographic Interpretation is a valid skill.

There is no tail chasing but there is a changing of what was seen and believed before.
that is uncomfortable for many people.

I do agree that it is near impossible to tell linings are one material or another. The 'look' of lining material, cotton or synthetic is not that cut and dried.


Beware the 'cha-ching' it is an unpredictable animal and known to bite.

[Puppetboy]

No question that is cotton silesia. 100% couldn't be plainer. I've used it in a lot of jackets and I recognize it immediately. (forgive my hubris)

The only comment is this: silesia is a pocketing material for trousers and is usually thin (for use under lightweight fabrics). It is also on the cheap side. It wouldn't be used in dress trousers. It's not especially nice fabric (at least not the silesia I've purchased from two or three sources.) _'s Wested would have been lined with silesia, so if the TL jacket's lining was thicker, it makes me wonder if it was actually silesia - - very minor point, but it may be that TL's jacket might have had a different lining than the others.

[RCSignals]

..........



this is cotton silesia lining.
Silesia: ''polished cotton''

[Holt]

Thanx Todd

[Holt]

RC,

I just think.. I just share my opinion... Im NOT saying that it is a wested...

I just personally think I see a different jacket in the wos/ wing scenes. the pattern looks alittle different but not much. it has baggier more wested sleeves, baggier body. actually I think I see that the rear sleeve seam seems to line up with the yoke in one scene... the pockets has a wested feel. the collar has a wested wibe. the lining looks to be silesia. the jacket looks longer then the hawaii jacket. the leather looks like thicker lambskin....

but like my friend Todd says, all this with screen grabs from scenes can be alittle misleading. lighting. stage lights. dust. distressing..I agree there. so Im not putting to much work into trying to identify what is what..

[RCSignals]

If you cant identify the jacket differences by photos you also can not positively identify the lining material.

No disrespect to Todd, he has a very good eye in these, but really the best he can say is it 'appears' to be cotton Silesia lining in his best estimate.

It's too difficult Holt for you to say you see a Wested as you have no idea what the Wested pattern was at that period of time.
If the jacket "pattern looks alittle different but not much" it probably isn't.

As I said before, it is unlikely two different people working in isolation of each other are going to produce the same jacket.

[bigrex]

Well, you know there is an old thread about this.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27943&hilit=smithsonian

Looking at those pics I personally have no doubt. Too much details are identical. One can make fake scratches on the jacket, ok, but not an identical collar corner shape. It's my opinion, of course, and I don't want to convince anyone.

I just went to that link you supplied Strones, precisely the same jacket Ford is wearing in that photo, to the tee. No doubts here, and very likely it made it into the movie as well, but I guess not an absolute known fact.

[Holt]

If you cant identify the jacket differences by photos you also can not positively identify the lining material.

No disrespect to Todd, he has a very good eye in these, but really the best he can say is it 'appears' to be cotton Silesia lining in his best estimate.

It's too difficult Holt for you to say you see a Wested as you have no idea what the Wested pattern was at that period of time.
If the jacket "pattern looks alittle different but not much" it probably isn't.

As I said before, it is unlikely two different people working in isolation of each other are going to produce the same jacket.

whatever man...

I said I just think it might be a different jacket.

now, I have a drink to finish and fill up another one after that.

its friday afterall...

[knibs7]

whatever man...

I said I just think it might be a different jacket.

now, I have a drink to finish and fill up another one after that.

its friday afterall...

Kyle

[Puppetboy]

but really the best he can say is it 'appears' to be cotton Silesia lining in his best estimate.

Oh, no. That's not the BEST I can say. Here's the BEST:

"The photo (or artist's rendering) is of a form (artificial or living) that has the appearance of Harrison Ford on the set of "Raiders of the Lost Ark". This assumption is based on photos of Harrison Ford, and eyewitness accounts of his physical appearance. The setting appears similar to one used in the "Well of Souls" scene in that movie, although it may also have been recreated on the same secret sound stage that was used to simulate the moon landing. The figure is wearing a jacket that has the appearance of leather, although it could be any other material such as vinyl, painted canvas, or brown toilet tissue with a heavy application of fuller's earth. The lining has the appearance of ordinary standard brown cotton silesia pocketing fabric, but could just as well be woven titanium, cleverly disguised as ordinary brown silesia. Brown silesia is such a common fabric, that designers often find ways to make more expensive fabrics resemble it exactly."

Just kidding! It's silesia or fabric that's so much like silesia that they're indistinguishable.

[RCSignals]

.. It's silesia or fabric that's so much like silesia that they're indistinguishable.

I knew you were kidding. and that we agree on, it's appearance in the photo is such that it could be Silesia. It may also be something that in the photo representation we see has a very similar appearance.

[Puppetboy]

it's appearance in the photo is such that it could be Silesia

Come on, you're almost there... just say "it looks like Silesia". You can do it.

[RCSignals]

it's appearance in the photo is such that it could be Silesia

Come on, you're almost there... just say "it looks like Silesia". You can do it.

Sorry, that's the best I can do from that photo. It could be other material as well.

[Holt]

I can say it. it looks like silesia! just like that jacket looks alittle different then the hawaii jacket!

[RCSignals]

just like that jacket looks alittle different then the hawaii jacket!

It's the striations


"fill up another one"

[Holt]

U bet!!!!!!!!.. im justy abot to do iiit!!!!!!!!

[Puppetboy]

RC, you can do it. Does it look like it's NOT silesia? No, of course not. Does it look like snakeskin? No. Does it look like duct tape? No. Come on, just say "it looks like silesia". There's no commitment involved. Admiting that it looks like silesia isn't the same as saying it IS silesia - just that it looks like silesia. Can you do it? I know you can.

[RCSignals]

I already did that

it's appearance in the photo is such that it could be Silesia

[Indiana Joyce]

Yeah, you can tell by the cross sections.

[RCSignals]

.
I think it looks like Dacron...

Is that in Indiana or Ohio?

[RCSignals]

Yeah, you can tell by the cross sections.

Cross sections?

[crismans]

I just personally think I see a different jacket in the wos/ wing scenes. the pattern looks alittle different but not much. it has baggier more wested sleeves, baggier body. actually I think I see that the rear sleeve seam seems to line up with the yoke in one scene... the pockets has a wested feel. the collar has a wested wibe. the lining looks to be silesia. the jacket looks longer then the hawaii jacket. the leather looks like thicker lambskin....

There we go, some specifics! Thank you for putting those out there, Holt!

Now, I'll take this and look at the Imam's jacket and the WoS and determine if I can see what you're seeing.

_, I'm really interested in what details you're seeing that make you think the Imam's/Hawaii is a different pattern from the Flying Wing/Raven Bar/WoS jacket. I definitely think it's a different jacket but I'm not seeing a different pattern.

[bigrex]

RC, you can do it. Does it look like it's NOT silesia? No, of course not. Does it look like snakeskin? No. Does it look like duct tape? No. Come on, just say "it looks like silesia". There's no commitment involved. Admiting that it looks like silesia isn't the same as saying it IS silesia - just that it looks like silesia. Can you do it? I know you can.

Just looks like some non-descript cloth to me, no wait could it be a plastic garbage bag liner? Why, yes I do believe, yes, of course, that's the only thing it could be, why couldn't I see it earlier?...but I digress...ew. Just having what I would call some fun here folks, or foolishness. (grail diary or flagon of beer...your choice)

[Hollowpond]

Yeah, you can tell by the cross sections.

Cross sections?

A joke based on LC when Sr. busts Jr. over the head with the Ming Vase...


Travis

[RCSignals]

thanks Travis. i wanted to make sure. you never know around here

[Hollowpond]

Yup. Gotta be careful in the jacket section...The intro to this section should read
Welcome to the Jacket Section


Travis
ps But I know you know that...

[crismans]

Can't wait to hear the results of your conversation.

Enjoy!

[RCSignals]

Good luck _.

Take you camera just in case

[Holt]

Good luck my friend!

[eazybox]

May the wind be at your back.

Jack

[Raskolnikov]

Great news. Good luck and enjoy.

[sebas]

That sounds great, _. Best of luck and make sure you grill him about those unusual 90s Wested strap specs!
Cheers!
Sebastian