Somebody convince me...

[IndianaChris711]

What is Lucas's COW member name? I would love to be able to go back and read some of his older posts.

DHW

Sorry - I work for him... And his purpose is to see what's going on without being noticed. Pretty sure the site admins have picked him out via his IP address?

But, Bink laid the smack down on him as a mod without knowing it...

Sorry this quote made me burst out laughing, still I find it interesting that George Lucas is lurking around here on the boards I wonder what he thinks of this place. I bet some of the discussions he probably is laughing his head off. Maybe he will find some new ideas for Indy V. As far as this jacket discussion goes, it has been interesting none the less. It is interesting now that maybe Wested jackets were or were not used. Thanks for all the information _, do you think you could get close enough at Skywalker Ranch to actually look at the jacket George took. Would be interesting just to see it in person.

IndianaChris

[Texan Scott]

Wasn't the zips originally aluminum, but because they were shiny, they painted them, then later, changed to other (less shiny) metals on subsequent iterations.

Without being able to examine them, it would seem that the Cooper & WC mockup would have the western style zip, with the pull on the right side, and that the European version would have the zipper pull on the left side, since the Cooper & WC mock up were potentially made first, there would be no nudge to configure them on the Euopean (left) side?

Offhand, this could potentially be one identifying characteristic to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Looking at Oak's jacket, it appears that his new TN's zipper pull is on the left side, left side from the perspective of the person wearing the jacket. If TN copied a Raider's screen used jacket, then it would seem that the jacket TN copied was a LC/Wested, no?

Riddle me this....if TN copied a Last Crusade jacket in order to make a Crystal Skull jacket, and the Last Crusade jacket is a copy of a Flight Suits jacket, why is the zipper pull on the left side?

My G&B lamb jacket is supposed to be a copy of a Raiders stuntman's jacket, and the zipper pull is on the left side.

[crismans]

Looking at Oak's jacket, it appears that his new TN's zipper pull is on the left side, left side from the perspective of the person wearing the jacket. If TN copied a Raider's screen used jacket, then it would seem that the jacket TN copied was a LC/Wested, no?

The standard zipper pull placement for the CS and Tony's Raiders jackets is on the left side.

Riddle me this....if TN copied a Last Crusade jacket in order to make a Crystal Skull jacket, and the Last Crusade jacket is a copy of a Flight Suits jacket, why is the zipper pull on the left side?

_ has hypothesized that Peter reverse-engineered a FS jacket to make the Last Crusade jacket. I believe that Lee Kepplar had worked a lot with FS on their pattern during the 80s. Perhaps he included the zipper placement in his specs?

[Texan Scott]

Oh, I agree... I don't know that I expect to get a history that everyone agrees with. I doubt I'll agree with it. I expect to end up with holes. I'm just trying to remove my own bias from this to see where we go. I think I need to be more open minded - even when I believe I know the answer. Believe me - this ain't easy for me...

Understood. Like they say at the University, 'The devil is in the details'.

The zipper seemed to be a key point to me, for whatever reason. I understand the first jacket getting it due to where Cooper had to work to make it and what he had to work with on short notice, but why continue using it for TofD 4 years later, especially when those jackets were made in the U. S. and then hand carried to Nepal to the set? No film goer was going to remember which side the zipper was installed on the jacket 4 years later. It never made sense to me.

3-4 years after Raiders, and time for a new movie, someone could have pulled out a Raiders jacket and said make one like this. For continuity reasons, he would have had to follow suit/precedent?

The yokes seem to be telling. Could HF have borrowed a stuntman's jacket for the Flying Wing scene?

[Michaelson]

...and made to several other individuals than just _ over the years.

Regards! Michaelson

[Mike]

ditto.

[Michaelson]

[Mike]

"Oh great! Real Bullets!"

[Texan Scott]

..."paging, Mr. Ellis..." (bellhop jacket).

...I'm even left handed and don't like the left pull.

[Mike]

I can corroborate this line of events as well. It was after FS was changing hands and new management didn't want to continue making one offs for Lee that he asked another party about leather jackets and was given Peter's card. Lee returned both of the bellhop jackets, wishing now that he would've kept one for sake of authentication. All we have left of those is the xeroxed ad now on the main site.

[Michaelson]

My turn!!

ditto.



Regards! Michaelson

[sebas]

Maybe this goes more in the thread that Sebas started since he's advanced this same question, but, as it was stated here, I thought I'd keep it here. Why do you believe that this is so? If Peter created a jacket that was remarkably close to the Cooper jacket, why did he suddenly revert back to another "pattern" that was so far off? Especially when he had Lee Keppler adding input at the time?

Well, as far as I'm concerned, the David Hack jacket is practically identical to a 90s Wested. The tell-tale giveaway is the strap stitching right next the hand-warmer/cargo pocket.



The Bantu Wind jacket, while having inseam back panel strap stitching is substancially different from a 90s Wested given the former's huge yoke and standard strap placement (ie. not attached to the lower portion of the handwamer).



It's a real pity there isn't a picture of the back of the Hack jacket: the yoke and strap stitching on the the back panel might shed light on things... Can anyone contact David Hack for picture?

So, moving on:

According to David Hack, it's a Cooper made jacket using the original pre-production WC supplied patterns

.

Okay, so, if this is indeed Cooper-made jacket, for whatever reason, Peter "locked and loaded" these specs into his brain for the better part of two decades. Even after having made the LC jackets with the standard side-strap attachment, he reverted to this Cooper-made WC supplied pattern in the 90s . The question is why?

[Michaelson]

Well, sebas, to clarify, 'we' were allowed to assume the Cooper made jacket given to David in 1985 was from the WC patterns. I asked questions, and got the 'nudge/nudge/wink/wink/ type responses in those inquiries.

After so many cooks from other kitchens decided to enter the field of research and bombarded Wings with inquiries of late, those doors have been shut to us now, so that path of 'discovery' is no longer available. Sad, but there is the truth of the matter. The Wings jacket is still a viable venture by that company, complete with a NDA and legal council advising against further discussion of the matter. There the matter now lies.

The photo we've seen is also the ONLY photo ever shot and posted of that particular jacket, so as we've done since 1996, all we can now do now is surmise what we're seeing, and what this jacket really is.

With the closing of that particular door and the direction the research is now going, I'd personally consider this jacket just another wild card in the deck. If you're going to continue building on theory, as I've told another member here, let's not continue to build on sand.

Regards! Michaelson

[sebas]

Roger that, Michaelson.
I'm not trying to build any real theory. Unlike many of you here, I'm not nearly knowledgeble enough on the subject matter to seriously surmise or bring to light anything of real value. I just have a lot of questions. Primarily revovling around those odd-ball Wested specs. If the questions trigger further investigation, or looking at what's there in a different light, then great.
Having said that, this thread is pretty fascinating.
Great work, guys!
Sebastian

[Michaelson]

[crismans]

_ has hypothesized that Peter reverse-engineered a FS jacket to make the Last Crusade jacket. I believe that Lee Kepplar had worked a lot with FS on their pattern during the 80s. Perhaps he included the zipper placement in his specs?

Not hypothesis... It's based on both Lee and Peter's statements.

Understood.

[whipcracker]

"We're not [from here] we're from out of town."



I was late to the "Three Amigos" pic earlier.

[Mike]

Is it me, or aside from the yoke, is something also off with this strap? To my eyes, I can't see the end of the "loose" strap, normally placed through the ring fasteners. I'm wondering if its a one piece construction with a buckle slide to cinch it up.

[Puppetboy]

I noticed that right away. There's no "tail" sticking out, front or back. It looks like there are two rectangular loops sewn to a strap on the inside of the back panel. The front strap could be fished through and then doubled back underneath. The tail could be glued to the backside and the excess cut off. Also, the side seam is very close to the vent opening. And the pocket appears to be the patch type rather than the cut-in type used on the main jacket. I say that because for all the stretch on the side strap, it's not pulling the pocket inside out. One way or the other, there are significant pattern differences to be observed between this and the main jacket.

Oh, and his shirt appears uncomfortably tan.

[whiskyman]

At least all the jackets seem to be the same colour.

[IndianaChris711]

I agree with the LC story now posted on the main site if you will, that makes sense that they called Lee to make his jacket for the film, then he gave Peter's contact to Anthony Powell and Powell went to Peter. I agree there 100% unless I am off. One question I have is did Peter ever return Lee Keppler's jacket back?? Is it still there at Wested hiding somewhere? Is this maybe the only reason why Peter can make very good LC jackets and the Raiders are so so. I need some time to sift through the information about the Raiders jacket here to even make a conclusion about the jacket, I agree the above picture is probably the best I have seen the side straps. I can even see the x-box pattern there, at least half of it. Very interesting to see what pans out of this _.

IndianaChris

[RCSignals]

.........
It's a real pity there isn't a picture of the back of the Hack jacket: the yoke and strap stitching on the the back panel might shed light on things... Can anyone contact David Hack for picture?
..........

the 'Blue label' jacket is supposedly a duplicate of that jacket. Does anyone have a photo of the back of a 'Blue Label' jacket?

[DeWayne]

Is this what you guys are talking about? The "tail", or excess strap? Looks like it's just flopped over and hanging down to me? That's what I "think" I see anyway.

[RCSignals]

I'm more inclined to believe Ford and Grace are wearing their Westeds. Looks like there's a week between the start if shooting at Elstree and receipt of the three stunt copies. Logically, I'd put him in a "stunt hero" when he's working with the doubles. In the no-risk sequences (Imam) put him in the hero jacket blessed by Steven. To me that's just logical. But it is just my opinion…

As to three orders - the details I have corroberate the three orders. 14 jackets were ordered and paid for as subcontracted to Leather Concessionaires. Peter also confirmed this number back in 2007 to me - unprompted - in a phone call.

Did you not previously say Leather Concessionaires was not mentioned, only Bermans and Nathan?

Well, you may have a point, but I don't know where it would lead. Peter confirmed - on his own without any mention by me - that they made 14 jackets for Raiders. This ties directly to the jacket orders done through and paid to B&N. The mock-up can be traced to payments and invoices made directly to WC. The Wilson's order is a direct payment with an invoice. Cooper was paid directly a flat fee for being a consultant. There is a separate bill from B&N for the materials Neil pulled to make his jacket. It's not detailed - £50. I assume that's only enough for one jacket.

I believe the jacket stuff going through B&N is all Wested, but if somebody can convince me otherwise?

Considering track record, especially recent is that confirmation proof of anything?

14 jackets is an interesting number. We do not see all that many jackets on screen.
Two, maybe three basically identical except for 'variation of striations' jackets worn by Ford in various scenes, and one two or three BW style jackets (BW dockside scene, truck drag scenes, Ford on horseback just prior to truck drag)

[Puppetboy]

Yep, I see that now. Thanks.

[RCSignals]

Is this what you guys are talking about? The "tail", or excess strap? Looks like it's just flopped over and hanging down to me? That's what I "think" I see anyway.

You may be right about that, I see it as well.
I also see a 'V' stitch not an 'X' stitch on the front anchor.
As an aside, the jacket TN had to copy had an open box on the front anchor and a 'V' stitch on the back anchor.

[DeWayne]

That thing looks cinched as tight as can be. Sorry to go off-track.

[RCSignals]

Then that eliminates the Cooper, or Peter copying the Cooper?
If KK did not give him anything to go on?
What happened to not believing KK anymore?

[RCSignals]

......... I know some of y'all want to find a way to eliminate him from this story, but you're going to have to prove it to me. .....

I'm not sure why I should believe that Leather Concessionaires / Wested Leather / Peter Botwright made any Indiana Jones jacket that was ever worn by Harrison Ford. No evidence that I can see supports this foregone conclusion any longer.

[crismans]

Just to clarify:

Did Peter get the Cooper's to copy or did he independently come up with the Wested jackets used on his own? _, I seem to remember you stating that he didn't get the Cooper's to look at, but it's hard to believe (although not out of the realm of possibility I guess) that he could come up with a jacket that close in pattern independently.

[crismans]

I disagree with much the man does and has done. I do not understand embellishing and outright lying. But the man did what he did. It is something to be admired and something for him to be proud of. Give the man his due.

You may be misreading my intent. I'll admit that I am far from a Wested supporter, mainly because I think that camp has muddied the waters so much that this exercise in trying to determine the jacket's history is ten times harder than it should be. In fact, I would go so far to say that the embellishment from certain camps is what has mainly led to the questioning of Wested's legacy more than anything else. In that, you catch one lie, you begin to question everything.

But back to my main point, I'm not out to prove there weren't any Westeds in the movie or take anything away from Peter that is rightfully his due. I have to admit that I have a little trouble getting around the point that the jackets are so similar considering they were made independently but, assuming that Peter and Neal were working from the same set of specs for a jacket, I concede that it is certainly possible.

There are some areas where everything doesn't fit together (at least for me). If we can hammer out stuff to where it fits together for most people's satisfaction then, hopefully, everyone can be at least close to the same page.

I think we're in agreement that the Imam's house jacket is the Hawaii jacket. Correct? If my shooting timeline is valid, the Imam's jacket is probably the Cooper. Do you see it this way as well?

If so, then we agree on these points. You see two jackets that are close but distinct. I personally see two jackets that are basically the same in terms of patterns but have distinct features such as your hated striations and other features (such as the notch on the collar stand I alluded to earlier). I'm certainly prepared to be wrong as you've had much more experience in looking at these jackets than me. Could you give some of your reasoning as to what makes them distinct and not the same pattern?

[RCSignals]

The work by Peter on the prototype was in-flight at the same time Neil made his jacket. What Wested was given to make the last three was an orderto recreate their first jacket exactly because the 10 were not good enough for the script supervisor. Wested was not given anything to copy. Peter told me he personally made number one and numbers 12-14. The others were made by his staff.

I disagree with much the man does and has done. I do not understand embellishing and outright lying. But the man did what he did. It is something to be admired and something for him to be proud of. Give the man his due.

I've been playing DVD jockey today - my last free day for this. I see two jackets. I now believe I recognize the Cooper. I also recognize the Wested. They are distinct. Close, but distinct. I'm back to a place where I am comfortable believing some things, and I think this exercise has made for a more robust and defensible position.

If that is the case the Neil Cooper jacket is completely separate and less likely for the jackets from each of these makers to be identical.

I see (other than striations) two basically identical jackets. More than likely from one maker, and one of these jackets has been attributed to Cooper. The only other very noticeable (and different) jacket is the BW (and possibly duplicates of it) in limited scenes. The BW has been labeled the 'pos' and not attributed to Peter.
What other 'Close, but distinct' jacket do you see?

[Holt]

Im think he means the WOS jacket where he pumps out the gaseline,etc. same jacket where Indy looks up to belloq and says''haha, son of a b...'' , those WOS scenes. to me that looks like a different jacket.

[Dragonlady Jones]

Is this what you guys are talking about? The "tail", or excess strap? Looks like it's just flopped over and hanging down to me? That's what I "think" I see anyway. You may be right about that, I see it as well.

I also see a 'V' stitch not an 'X' stitch on the front anchor.
As an aside, the jacket TN had to copy had an open box on the front anchor and a 'V' stitch on the back anchor.

Isn't that 'V' stitch referred to as a 'K' stitch? I hope so, otherwise I'll be totally confused (instead of the mostly confused state I'm in now!).

[RCSignals]

.....
Isn't that 'V' stitch referred to as a 'K' stitch? I hope so, otherwise I'll be totally confused (instead of the mostly confused state I'm in now!).

Yes also referred to as a 'K' stitch. a 'V' in a box

[RCSignals]

Here is the description of the jacket _ had an opportunity to examine.

Is this one of the '4 good' jackets or one of the lesser jackets?
Does anyone see the BW jacket in this description?

Posted by _ from XX.XXX.XX.XX on August 07, 2000 at 15:01:29:

"I was able to examination an original jacket from Raiders over the weekend. I examined the jacket as well as the documents certifying its authenticity. I brought along a Wested jacket for comparison, though after owning three, I think I could have done this from memory. Peter even dropped me a hint as to an item I might look for to verify it was one of his. Based on all that I had before me, I believe that this was an authentic article.

So here goes…

For the most part, the items we've been debating made up the bulk of the differences:

1.The leather used was noticeably thicker then that on my Wested.

2.This particular jacket had rectangular rings 1 inch by ½ inch, rather then the d-rings. They were painted black.

3.The straps were thicker and a bit wider. The thickness was due to the leather being three layers thick rather then two.

4.The straps were attached within the seam of the jacket, which runs a few inches from the hand warmer slit, i.e. they were not attached right next to the hand warmer slit as with my Wested. A reinforcing length of stitching ran approximately ¼ inch from the seam on the side towards the hand warmer slit. This stitching was through the outer jacket and through the part of the strap under the seam.

5.The rings were attached under the seam like the Wested, but were much more flush with the edge of the rear panel, i.e. they were barely visible unless the bi-swing pleat were opened.

6.Also, a very interesting thing was that the stitching for the ring attachment went through the rear panel. This could explain why sometimes it looks like the attachment is on the outside and sometimes on the inside.

7.The overall side strap attachment is slightly above the center of the hand warmer slit opening, NOT level with the bottom of the opening as with my Wested.

8.The length of the bi-swing pleat ran ½ inch above the attachment of the ring attachment to the rear panel. As such, the bi-swing pleat on the Wested needs to be appropriately longer.

9.One big surprise - there were gussets under the arms! This explains a particular fit problem I've always had with the Wested, i.e. you cannot move your arms around much without the entire body of the jacket moving with you. The gussets would fix this. They were made up of two panels, each ¾ inch wide. Together they were shaped like an elongated eye. They serve as a kind of pleat under the arm to allow arm movement without affecting fit or how the jacket hangs. Very interesting.

10.The collar attachment to the storm flap was correct in basic configuration, but the Wested is off in scale. The storm flap on the original was 3/4 inch narrower, and the collar band was only ¾ inch wide vs. 1 1/8 on the Wested. Other then that the collar dimensions were dead-on. Sorry, but the collar band did attach to the top of the storm flap, creating the "cap" to the storm flap - some have disputed this, though I cannot recall who. The resulting collar sat more flat against the jacket.

11.The bi-swing pleat was 1 ½ inches deep, vs. 1 inch on my Wested. The extra ½ inch makes a big difference in the appearance of the pleat.

12.The seam under the sleeve was lined up perfectly with the seam across the back of the jacket.

13.The inside pocket was a simple leather-bound slit, not the more elaborate configuration of my Wested. Actually, I really do prefer the more elaborate setup, but that's not the purpose here.

14.The lining was cotton - heavier then the cotton I have on my LC Wested. It was more like a lightweight denim-like material. The color was very close to my Wested's, however.

15.The cargo pockets were dead-on.

16.The zipper was the cheap aluminum type, with several teeth missing.

17.The jacket had two tears - one on each elbow. Quite probably the reason it was set aside from the production.

18.The color was a very deep brown - almost black in indoor light. Under bright light it did have a very subtle reddish hue.

I have drawings and measurements in note form. I'll put together some diagrams to try and clarify all this in the next few days.

Fun stuff!

-_"

[Hatch]

Thanks for the research RC, ....anyone know if _ has ever commented on how deep the yoke was on the jacket he examined........

[Holt]

number 12 is very intersting to me. this is what I was talking about not long ago. that the rear sleeve seams were lined up with the yoke... maby this was done on the wested ''hero'' and the coopers had one 1'' below the yoke..

[RCSignals]

Thanks for the research RC, ....anyone know if _ has ever commented on how deep the yoke was on the jacket he examined........

I would hazard a guess based on this

12.The seam under the sleeve was lined up perfectly with the seam across the back of the jacket.

it was the deep/low yoke as seen on the BW.

[Holt]

it dont has to be the BW. the sleeve seams can perfectly line up without having that low yoke like on the BW.

[RCSignals]

number 12 is very intersting to me. this is what I was talking about not long ago. that the rear sleeve seams were lined up with the yoke... maby this was done on the wested ''hero'' and the coopers had one 1'' below the yoke..

I think it is a description closely matching the BW jacket.
Yet the BW jacket is said to be based on the WC mock up and not made by Wested.
However the jacket _ examined has been attributed to Wested because of a note in the pocket.
Apparently Wested made '4 good jackets' and those 4 would presumably match the main Hero (Iman's/Hawaii etc made by Cooper) so this jacket could be one of the 'less than good'. It's description is very much like the BW jacket. With torn elbows could it be the truck drag jacket? It has also been said the jacket was in extremely poor condition.

We still have a long dusty road ahead

[Holt]

yes I agree, could very well be...

and those 4 would presumably match the main Hero

thats why I think the wos jacket could be the wested... maby..

[RCSignals]

yes I agree, could very well be...

and those 4 would presumably match the main Hero

thats why I think the wos jacket could be the wested... maby..

I think temple = WOS = RAVEN=Flying Wing all same jacket. This jacket is identical (other than striations) to the 'other' jacket (now attributed to Cooper) and as such could not have been made by a different maker so exact without the first to copy or an exact pattern. It has been said that Leather Concessionaires did not copy or was not given the Cooper jacket to copy.

[Holt]

wait,wait...

something just struck me...

I have spoken to peter about this a couple years ago on the phone...

he said to me that he remembers that the jackets he delievered were made with cotton silesia and non of them were delievered with shiny lining.

now, think of it. coopers made the tofd jacket with shiny lining.. the cooper raiders jacket has shinyish lining.. see the connection? same maker, same lining used...

is it possible to identify the jackets by the lining? Peter said that they made jacket only with cotton silesia and I see one jacket in raiders with cotton lining. all the other looks to have shinyish lining like in the tofd/cooper jacket..


edit: see number 14 from pattersons old post.

[RCSignals]

Which jacket do you see that you think has a cotton lining and does it match the 'Cooper' Hero?
I'm not sure that one can be 100% positive of the lining material from the screen grabs.
Anyway the description of the jacket _ examined does not match the 'Cooper' hero so should be noticeable as a different jacket

[Holt]

this one, because the lining 'acts' in a different way then what shiny nylon lining would do. the wrinkles and charcteristics are of cotton not nylon/silk.

I believe this is the same jacket as the wos 'pumping gaseline' jacket and the 'haha son of a b....' jacket.

when I said that I believe the wested is the ''wos'' jacket I didnt mean the famous in front of the cobra jacket i ment the jacket explained above...




this is cotton silesia lining.
Silesia: ''polished cotton''


edit: and this jacket has a different look to it then the imam/hawaii jacket. not much but alittle. the leather is thicker aswell and the lining is cotton.
Like I said, I believe this is the wested.

[RCSignals]

That lining has a certain sheen to it. I couldn't say it was not nylon or something similar.
In that photo it looks very much like the lining TN uses in the Raiders jacket, and it is not cotton silesia

[Holt]

yes, exactley like cotton 'silesia' wested uses today.

[Holt]

here.

look at the wrinkles, characteristics and slight sheen of the cotton silesia.

pretty spot on if you ask me.

[RCSignals]

here.

look at the wrinkles, characteristics and slight sheen of the cotton silesia.

pretty spot on if you ask me.

your jacket lining looks like cotton. The screen shot looks different, more shine, and more like a thicker synthetic.
Do you have a screen shot of the supposed Cooper nylon lining?