Somebody convince me...

[whipcracker]

I think that it is amazing that _ has had GL and SS on the phone talking about all of this. Thanks _, that is somthing that I thought I would never hear of. Do they think that we are all truly nuts (unless they already knew that) or they must really care about making sure that the right info is out there (i.e. they really care about IJ and us, the fans...). At any rate, I think _ should get a big thanks (if he hasn't already, which I probably missed somewhere). Also, in all of this, I think that it shows me that maybe we should trust people a little more (to a certain degree while we are all searching for the verification on what they say) when they truly stick by their story for years on end....

[Yojimbo Jones]

The Hawaii jacket and the main jacket have an almost identical pattern at the very least, if not an identical one. The differences between the 2 have been mapped down to the strations and markings which give us the scenes. I'm convinced the BW jacket is the truck drag, but can't confirm it at this point in time.

Ok, just noticed come familiar little red arrows above this post!

Those markings with the blue arrows are just a coincidence. The flying wing jacket and the Hawaii are both definitely different. Too many things definitely do not match.

_, with your new-found clarity, where are your thoughts at on the preproduction through to early filming days at Elstree in terms of the jackets produced and used? To be honest I couldn't keep track of the whole POS thing, etc. as I had paid work to be doing...

Oh, and why are there any more than these 3 jackets? Who says there was an additional order? There is ZERO evidence of further jackets in the film.

[Satipo]

Is that the same striation mark with four very defined bubbles near the collar, about an inch down from the shoulder seam on Ford's right?

[RCSignals]

Satipo I believe that is correct

[Yojimbo Jones]

Yes. And here are a few from a bunch I have been playing around with earlier.

Main jacket:
Note the striations.


Hawaii Jacket:
Notice the thin scratches on the arms, RH lumpy collar.


Among other things, as Crismans noted above, the top 20mm square of the collar stand on main hero jacket is butt crack / dimple-shaped, whereas the Hawaii equivalent is riddled with smaller lumps but is mostly flat. The rounded off flap top is illusion, as are the wonky collar points. As my Nowak 000/888-sized jacket from ages ago showed, you can easily create the main hero collar from the Hawaii jacket. They're absolutely from the same pattern. Any variations come from the fact they were hand made.

[Satipo]

Excellent. That means he's probably wearing the same jacket each time he fights Pat Roach. I like that.

[Yojimbo Jones]

Just not when he shoots him.

[Holt]

Is that the same striation mark with four very defined bubbles near the collar, about an inch down from the shoulder seam on Ford's right?

]

yes, these two are the same jacket. there are more give aways then the striation.

[Satipo]

Is that the same striation mark with four very defined bubbles near the collar, about an inch down from the shoulder seam on Ford's right?

yes, these two are the same jacket. there are more give aways then the striation.

Thanks for the further confirmation. I can see from these pics that the collar is really small too. What else is there to notice?

[Michaelson]

Well, as your twisting and pulling of information goes on, I'd like this question answered as things go along. It's been a 'bone of contention' for gearheads since the beginning, and everyone thought the answer was obvious when it was believed all the jackets were made by Wested.

Why the European zipper?

If it were made by Cooper, patterned by Western Costume, why in the world did they install non-American zippers on the jackets? It's one of the very first things newbies observe when they first get an Indy jacket, and now it's even more of a puzzle with this new information being bantied about.

Thoughts?

Regards! Michaelson

[Michaelson]

Understood on zipper on the first Cooper jacket, but on every jacket, and for every film?

Considering all the continuity errors we've found in the 4 films, I'm sure this wasn't one to just fight a continuity error.

_ and I have BOTH fought tooth and nail with David Hack to install European zips on Wings jackets, and he has flatly refused all these years. It's just been odd this is still used on all the Indy jackets to me.

Ok, just thought I'd toss that out there, as you KNOW that was coming sometime.

Regards! Michaelson

[Holt]

but there has to be more then one hero jacket used in the film. he is being shot in the arm in the one hero jacket. and it looks to be the imam jacket.

[Michaelson]

Oh, I agree... I don't know that I expect to get a history that everyone agrees with. I doubt I'll agree with it. I expect to end up with holes. I'm just trying to remove my own bias from this to see where we go. I think I need to be more open minded - even when I believe I know the answer. Believe me - this ain't easy for me...

Understood. Like they say at the University, 'The devil is in the details'.

The zipper seemed to be a key point to me, for whatever reason. I understand the first jacket getting it due to where Cooper had to work to make it and what he had to work with on short notice, but why continue using it for TofD 4 years later, especially when those jackets were made in the U. S. and then hand carried to Nepal to the set? No film goer was going to remember which side the zipper was installed on the jacket 4 years later. It never made sense to me.

Ah well. Like I said elsewhere this morning, I'm glad this is just a hobby for us. If our lives depended on it, we'd have been dead years ago!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

[Holt]

no we havent and I for one wouldnt want to close the loose ends either. but I have respect for the person who does this job....

Im just here to enjoy the weird hobby of the jacket..

but I have to say, from observations, I am more then convinced that there are more then ONE jacket worn thru out the film.

[whipcracker]

As I always say...I might have missed something in this thread but... Why is it so difficult for us to believe that there was only one real hero jacket for Raiders and especially for LC, or for any of the films for that matter (perhaps there were "other" jackets that got worn in a scene here or there but not the actual hero jacket). There is nothing that HF did stunt wise that wouldn't have destroyed a well made jacket. Like he said, "If it was really dangerous they wouldn't have let me do it."

[Flash Gordon]

Has anyone mentioned d-rings in some scenes and sliders in others?

[Flash Gordon]

BANG!

[Holt]

hey! I was only joking when I said that.. I said it with a very,very big GRIN on my face

[crismans]

but there has to be more then one hero jacket used in the film. he is being shot in the arm in the one hero jacket. and it looks to be the imam jacket.

This was what I was struggling with last night. It doesn't have the "cleft" in the collar stand of the temple/Raven Bar jacket and does look in other ways like the Imam's jacket. But, if we follow the supposition that the Imam's jacket is the Hawaii jacket (which I believe is true based on quite a number of "tells") then the truck jacket can't be the Imam's because of the hole in it.

So what jacket is it?

[crismans]

Either prove the other jackets are not Wested’s or admit to me that Peter DID make different jackets for Raiders, and that he did not make patterns, that he’s been selling jackets that are not based on original patterns, and that he must have copied the FS jacket Lee sent to him. I know these are facts. I’m trying to get you all to prove these to yourself because I am fxxxgxn tired of hearing I am wrong.

Ah, then I've missed the boat on this one. I was working on whether there is more than one hero jacket. I believe that the Cooper/Imam's/Hawaii jacket is the same. I think that (primarily due to the cleft in the collar stand) that the Raven Bar and temple jacket is a different jacket. The cleft is quite noticeable and not something that would seem to disappear/reappear from scene to scene. I'm not adamantly stating this because, God knows, I've made some missteps lately, but this is what I currently think.

I may to withdraw from the field as I do not discount that Wested may have made stunt/jackets and the like. What was confusing me (and what Sebas has alluded to) is if Wested was brought on board to make copies of Cooper's pattern, why did their patterns differ in key respects during the late 90s/early 2000s. It may just be a case of they copied the jacket, didn't have patterns, and tried to replicate it as best they could later on.

[ANZAC_1915]

Either prove the other jackets are not Wested’s or admit to me that Peter DID make different jackets for Raiders, and that he did not make patterns, that he’s been selling jackets that are not based on original patterns, and that he must have copied the FS jacket Lee sent to him.

Here is my concern, that you're using the history of the jacket (and what was worn!?) to prove or disprove whether Peter still has or could have "original patterns" or not.

What do you mean by original patterns? Is a pattern made from copying the FS jacket for LC not original (as used for the production jackets)? Peter's COA for LC says "original patterns", I take that to mean the patterns he made the film jackets from. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't speak to how he produced the pattern.

My contention is if he made jackets for either production, he had to have patterns at some point. That is the process of making jackets. For Raiders, it is quite possible he had original patterns and lost them.

I would agree that if he made NO jackets AT ALL for either film, then it is unlikely he has original patterns. But I don't believe you have questioned that.

- we all agree that LC/Wested made jackets for Raiders and LC
- he therefore had to have patterns in order to make these jackets, whether he copied other protoytpe jackets or not
- he may or may not still have them
- there is doubt about what was screen worn by HF (great discussion)

If you are taking "original patterns" to mean "that Peter designed and created", that is really a different issue than what is claimed on the COA.

[BrandonA18]

Hi all,

I thought this thread was a very interesting read. I am not an expert on jackets or the vocabulary that now goes along with them, but I can relate to the frustration of trying to pin down things like this.

Our experience has always been that there were very few multiples used in these early Raiders films (Raiders and TOD). Things were not made on a grand scale like they were with Star Wars. Having spoken with Anthony Powell, he couldn't recall the exact number of jackets (no fault of his own, how difficult is it to recall such specific details of 25 years ago?), but from studying the film, it seems no more than 2 to 3 (in TOD).

Also I find it odd that Lucas would take a jacket from Tunisia. Lucas retained all of the assets from Raiders so they were only ever destined for the Ranch anyway. Paramount received no assets from Raiders, though they did receive a list of what was brought back from the UK. I have heard that at his home Lucas has a head piece to the staff of Ra, but never heard anything about a jacket.

Anyway, my main reason for posting is that I noticed the "Ford on the dock" shot seems popular, and thought you guys could do with a slightly better version. If I can help with any other photos, just let me know.



Best,
Brandon Alinger
The Prop Store of London

[crismans]

This isn't a witch hunt to prove/disprove what Peter has said from my perspective. It's to determine the history of the jacket which I (for some reason I have difficulty fanthoming ) am very interested in. If it proves Peter right or incorrect? So be it either way.

[Michaelson]

Just a point, Peter's COA has said the exact same thing for every jacket he's produced since 1996. Only the name of the jacket on the main line gets changed, but the wording is the same, or at least all MINE have been.

Regards !Michaelson

[Michaelson]

Besides, we did learn the real story of George taking the jacket. That was worth it.

Just the fact that he participated in the discussion at all was gratifying in itself!

Regards! Michaelson

[binkmeisterRick]

I most certainly do!

[Michaelson]

Yes, I've known.

That said, it's still gratifying to know that after all the abuse he's received at some members hands here, he STILL converses on points we want to pursue. He could have just as easily told you to go blow bubbles for all he cared. THAT'S what I'M talking about.

Thank you Mr. Lucas.

Regards! Michaelson

[Michaelson]

[DarenHenryW]

What is Lucas's COW member name? I would love to be able to go back and read some of his older posts.

DHW

[Michaelson]

But, Bink laid the smack down on him as a mod without knowing it...

I'd hate to know what he thinks about me after all these years!

Regards! Michaelson

[binkmeisterRick]

As much as I really do have respect for George, this still cracks me up to no end. Talk about bragging rights! And George, don't take it personally.

[DarenHenryW]

Well, it's pretty cool to think George Lucas reads some of this. So, in case you're reading: Hi, George! I'm friends with a fellow who is helping you with your Tuskegee Airman movie. (actually, more of a friend of a friend) His name is Chris. Good luck with that!

Please make more Indiana Jones movies starring Harrison Ford. Shia too! I love this character you've created, so please keep them coming!

But back to the jacket. I'm lost: Is the contention now that Cooper made the Hero jacket for Raiders, or are we back to Peter? Or are we at it's not clear. I haven't been able to make sense of some of this.

And again, thank you, _, for being so dedicated to this topic. It's fascinating.

DHW

[Hatch]

_, don't forget about the cloth one used for the 'River jump'...

[RCSignals]

Anzac - You don't need patterns to make a jacket. You DO need a pattern to reproduce a jacket. JMO..

Actually I think some sort of pattern is needed to make a jacket even if it is 'one', if only for accuracy to avoid a lot of unnecessary wastage.

[Yojimbo Jones]

Ok, so in other words you started this whole coversation to draw out certain people and theories thinking you could smack them down? Most people including myself couldn't care less who knows what. Many do care that so many stories don't add up.

This just isn't that hard, and it doesn't take a phone call to "Steven and George" to nut out the facts of what we see. There is one main jacket, one secondary one, one oddball one, and zero onscreen evidence that there are definitely others. This can all be discovered using a copy of the DVD, a few production stills and Photoshop to blow up frames and bring out details using the right grading tools.

The image postings in this thread don't really tie together the argument for what's what - they're just stuff Crismans and I threw up quickly. It's not just about striations - you need to get off that fixation that that is all that there is to this argument, _. There are a bunch of other confirmed tells that no-one else that has seen them disagrees with. I haven't posted them in a bunch of detail because I thought they were obvious.

If you'd like me to lay it all out I can.

[Texan Scott]

...who's on first, what's on second, and I don't know is on third?

Is it time for Judge Wapner, yet?

Reminds me of Carson's skit as Reagan and Jim Baker:

"Ok, Jim, tell me WHO is on the phone!"

"Yasser."

...the jacket with the smaller yoke is the ______ jacket?

...the jacket with the larger yoke is the _______ jacket?

As stated, it would seem that if you consider continuity, and the fact that that the Elstree sequences were filmed back to back and spanning a few days, then you would suppose that HF would have used the same jacket. Indoor stuff, and not difficult stunts, etc.

Is it a leap to assume that the Elstree jacket(s) and the Hawaii jacket is the same? The Elstree sequences were among the first filmed, and the Hawaii scenes among the last? One characteristic of the Hawaii jacket is the wrinkle-y collar.

Cris...I'm not so sure about the crease on the collar stand, as the collar is twisted/contorted in the stills, and pulled up for the inside the temple, tarantula "guard" effect. They did not want the tarantulas to go down his collar/back, so they flipped the collar up.

About the dock sequence jacket...the collar does not look wrinkled (as if due to water exposure/distressing) as is the collar of the Hawaii jacket. The dock jacket has the wider yoke. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the prototype jacket the one that had the straps configured very close to the hand warmer pockets and that subsequent iterations had the straps repositioned closer to the side seam? If so, the dock jacket looks like a later iteration?

[Mountaineer]

Minor point(s) from way out here in deep left field but as to the European zipper:

I happen to like that the zipper's pull is hidden behind the weather flap, it keeps it from clanking around or catching itself on things, perhaps that was the idea all along.

That doesn't explain how the rest were the same as Raiders, but maybe that minor little feature (i.e. a hidden zipper pull) became what someone, somewhere liked about the jacket and it stuck.

Another thing that comes to mind is that in some capacity a woman was involved in making the jacket, be it its initial design or its final OK. Perhaps the whole male vs. female method of clothing closure got fuzzy and that's how the male ended up with a (for a U.S. person) female setup.

[Yojimbo Jones]

@_,

Just came here post-reading your PM. Obviously I can't solve the suppiers thing, but the main things can be sorted using the movie. Doesn't that make sense?

In all seriousness, its clear I don't get your point - where you're now coming from has shifted from your first posts.

If it's about pattern, I've addressed that the 2 jackets are pretty much identical - they have to be from the same pattern, and most likely by the same maker.

[Raskolnikov]

Wow. Such a thread. I have been out of the forum for some days... Great points everybody.

_, I'm with Yojimbo and Crismans in this one. I think the differences are too clear to be taken aside. But, the thing is that they really look like sharing the same pattern. Could it be that Copper made two jackets (although the first one was the one later taken to Hawaii?
And thaks again for sharing this with us and for the hard work .

Regards,
Rask

[crismans]

I think the thread has been beneficial as we have reached something of a consensus on certain points (I say something as not everybody has reached this point and that's fine as dissention often brings out some valuable points).

Things that most seem to agree on:

1.) the Cooper jacket is featured in the Imam's house and is the Hawaiian one that Tony copied.

2.) The affectionately titled POS most probably features in the Bantu Wind scenes, the behind the scenes dock shot, and the truck gag(and considering that this supposition featured (among other topics) in a knock-down, drag-out thread a few months back, this is a good step forward.

The disagreement now seems to center around whether there was secondary "hero" that was used in several scenes. I favor not trying to figure out if it's a Wested or not yet. Let's try to arrive at a conclusion to everyone's satisfaction if there was another jacket first. If most decide there was, then we could start trying to figure out if Wested made it or if it came from some other source.

I've seen YJ's evidence to support the idea that there is another jacket that Ford wears in several prominent scenes. I feel that it is very compelling.I probably did it disservice by posting just bits and pieces of it, but I was wanting to get some evidence up to support why I think as I do. If he could/wants to take the time, maybe he could put that up for us and let people take a look at it and decide if they think it's valid.

[Yojimbo Jones]

Totally agree with that approach Crismans. I can lay it out and bring in some real-life / production factors to demonstrate why I'm thinking in a certain direction.

[crismans]

And while we're waiting on that , if we can use this thread to address some other questions (although the first one actually ties into the Wested question you've posed to us).

_, look at this photo (enlarged and enhanced):


Admittedly, the source was poor so, even enhanced, it's not the best of photos. However, it is decent enough to see that you have two jackets that look remarkably similar in pattern. Remarkably similar.

Let's move a bit into the hypothetical. Hopefully not too much for comfort, as I fully realize that everyone isn't on the same page as I am currently (and I admit that I might be wrong). But, back to the exercise, since the overall pattern of both jackets matches that of the Cooper's jacket, let's say that one of these is the Cooper's. Then you have another jacket that looks very much like it. You believe that a similar jacket used in some scenes was a Wested.

I believe Peter made a jacket remarkably close to that jacket.

"That jacket" being the Cooper's.

That's fine. I'm certainly prepared to admit that Wested made a similar jacket (and just to clarify, you're saying that the Cooper jacket wasn't sent to Peter to copy, that his prototype resembled the Cooper's but was made independently?). But:

I believe later on he began making jackets with big round pockets and sloppy collar

"He" being Peter, of course.

Maybe this goes more in the thread that Sebas started since he's advanced this same question, but, as it was stated here, I thought I'd keep it here. Why do you believe that this is so? If Peter created a jacket that was remarkably close to the Cooper jacket, why did he suddenly revert back to another "pattern" that was so far off? Especially when he had Lee Keppler adding input at the time?

You probably can't give a definitive answer, I know, but I was wondering your thoughts/suppositions on the subject.

*Edited to add that I almost took this post down as, when I read through it, it seems I was walking all over the sentiment that I expressed a few posts ago to not try and determine if the secondary hero was a Wested. I don't have an opinion as yet if it was a Wested or not. Sebas' question of why the change in Wested's pattern has just stuck with me and becomes even more odd if you go with the account that Wested made a jacket much like the Cooper jacket. Probably splitting hairs here but I decided to leave it up.

Secondly, are we putting the "three orders" info on the shelf for the time being? We have been told that there were three orders: a prototype, a second order (of ten jackets I'm thinking) that were noticeably different from the prototype, and a third order to be more like the prototype and that were used primarily as stunt jackets. Is this info suspect now?

[Chewbacca Jones]

Understood on zipper on the first Cooper jacket, but on every jacket, and for every film?
Regards! Michaelson

If I may be so bold, I have a theory about that. It is based on only what I have read in the past and my own brain bubbling,, but here it is; It has been reported that the zipper pulls presented a problem in filming during Raiders because they were to shiny. So much so, that they were painted. Since zippers are supposedly easy to switch sides on, maybe this was a further attempt to cut down on shine by hiding the pull behind the storm flap. Plus, they would be better protected from getting snagged on anything during stunts if tucked behind a flap of leather, rather than flapping loose in the open.

Therefore, the zippers are NOT European, just practical.

In producing the later jackets, the feature may have been copied without thinking. I mean, who really thinks about that sort of thing except us?

[TenuredProfessor]

After reading all of the jacket posts pertaining to the origins of it and who made what, and understand I'm an outsider who hasn't responded, I applaud you, _. Personally, I always thought you were a heavy handed, blowhardish bully when it came to "the jacket". I know you talk to 'Steve and George' and all, but I appreciate your graciousness and flexibility on this recent post. I certainly want to extend my respect and thanks to you. And also recognize how much you've done for us gearheads. Thanks for not making me feel agrivated when I read the most recent jacket post. I did feel that you were trying to 'stir the ####' when you started this post, but I'm happy, as a fan, that the post has not devolved into a knock down, drag out, reply war. Just my thought. I'm a proud Wested owner, by the way.....but a Nowak's on order. Full disclosure and all..

David

[RCSignals]

Another question. The BW / POS. Other than the yoke, how "accurate" is it? Afterall, it is supposed to be based on the WC cloth mock-up. It is sort of a Rosetta stone for pattern and detail.

Accurate to what? It has an 'action back' two front pockets, side straps. storm flap, two vents.

If it is based on the WC cloth mock up, it also confirms DL's statement that the WC design had an action back. No?
DL also mentions Wilson's jackets, they being made based on the WC jacket, and having action back. They also apparently were taken to England. Why can the BW jacket not be a Wilson's jacket?

[RCSignals]

I'm more inclined to believe Ford and Grace are wearing their Westeds. Looks like there's a week between the start if shooting at Elstree and receipt of the three stunt copies. Logically, I'd put him in a "stunt hero" when he's working with the doubles. In the no-risk sequences (Imam) put him in the hero jacket blessed by Steven. To me that's just logical. But it is just my opinion…

As to three orders - the details I have corroberate the three orders. 14 jackets were ordered and paid for as subcontracted to Leather Concessionaires. Peter also confirmed this number back in 2007 to me - unprompted - in a phone call.

Did you not previously say Leather Concessionaires was not mentioned, only Bermans and Nathan?

[RCSignals]

..........
The problem is that the Cooper is a single jacket and there are likely three Westeds of a similar but likely not identical pattern. Do I care? Not any more... At least not tonight - it's time for a martini...

Cheers!

Is the Cooper a single jacket? If you 'lay aside' the striations there are (at least) two identical appearing jackets. One of those being the Iman/Hawaii.
That says to me they were made to one pattern, most likely by one maker.
If one of these was made by a different maker it was by someone who could duplicate very well, and if there was such a person duplicating should we not see more of this pattern jacket instead of one or two other obviously different jackets?

[CM]

There's another issue. Did the Cooper and the Westeds all have aluminium zips, etc? Why did they share this characteristic - did they really need to save $5 per jacket?

Also, HF told Patto that the jackets kept popping seams, busting zips - would that be just the Westeds or the Cooper too?

Which jacket is the one in the photo with the famous ripped cargo pocket seam? Is it the pre fly-wing jacket in Tunisia?

[ANZAC_1915]

Anzac - You don't need patterns to make a jacket. You DO need a pattern to reproduce a jacket. JMO..

That's my point, I think "more than 1" jacket, you would be making a pattern. We know orders were placed with LC/Wester for Raiders/LC, therefore he would have made patterns to produce a quantity of jackets in each case.

Also JMO - my mother was in the garment trade so I got to watch a lot of stuff being made. Not leather jackets tho.

[Flash Gordon]

It all boils down to sliders and D-rings. Mmmm...sliders and D-rings...