Somebody convince me...

[gwyddion]

If you are willing to spend the time, do it. Come what may, fact is better than assumption and/or fiction

Regards, Geert

[Flyderf]

What's that saying?......."the more you learn, the less you know".

[RCSignals]

I think you are on the path to enlightenment

Some will say you are on the road to perdition

[Texan Scott]

A good fact filter could be a virtue, sifted to allow sediment to fall by the wayside?

[Yojimbo Jones]

This is good. Please be sure to let us know what makes it through your filter and why.

[CM]

Keep going Patto, if you're up to it. I've enjoyed the ride as much as getting to the facts. Your work has saved people money and given them informed choices.

But more than that, you have proven how hard it is to gain accurate knowledge about anything. Imagine, if getting to the truth about a little jacket is this complex, is it any wonder people go to war over religion and politics? A valuable lesson.

Wouldn't it be amazing if Peter never made the jacket? If nothing else, it would explain why it has taken him years to get the design right.

Maybe you can chart two jacket histories - each version with it's own pros and cons...

By the way, does the material used for the lining indicate Cooper versus Wested at all?

[Mike]

Lets not jump to unsupported inferences or accusations just yet. You know how people take quotes like "…if Peter never made the jacket?" and run with it.

Lets just see how this plays out and go from there.

No warnings on this one folks, lets keep it nice.

[crismans]

You're not alone. I've had my doubts for some time (and I know others have as well). However it shakes out, it will be good to know the truth.

And the truth is out there.

[Castor Dioscuri]

Those of us sitting on the sidelines with the popcorn really have had no other research to go on but your own, _, and that's not a bad thing! It really has been an interesting ride watching CoW's very own action hero clearing a path for the rest of us to follow.

With that said, I had been confused recently with the whole involvement of all the other vendors as had been reported, that really made me wonder where Concessionaires came in! I am interested to see where this trail of breadcrumbs leads!

[gwyddion]

This all makes sence! one thing though: Didn't ford also wear Vic's jacket for TOD? If so, he did wear one of Peter's jackets. Well, unless that was the POS jacket or I just remembered wrong

Holt might know if Ford would only have worn one jacket in LC: He's a wizard in identifying jackets through distressing marks.

Regards, Geert

[knibs7]

I've been doubting the Leather Concessionaires/ Wested thing for a long time. I'd say that after all of the numerous notes and information you've gone through, that if you haven't come across anything backing up Peter's claims, then that should be enough evidence to base your conclusion on.

Kyle

[Indiana Strones]

I don't know who made the Smithsonian jacket, but there is evidence that this was worn by Ford in a lot of LC scenes. You should add this jacket to your list.

[DarenHenryW]

_, I am in awe of you. I don't know what to believe, since I haven't been a jacket hound for long enough. But I will quickly state that I bought an "Authentic Raiders Lambskin" and an "LC Washed Goat" from Wested, both under the assumption that were indeed the proper materials and design, made by the same hands, or at least company. I have since sold the Raiders Lamb since receiving a Raiders 747 cowhide from Tony Nowak. And in regards to the LC jacket, I also don't feel confident that its correct. When I bought it last year, I was under the impression (because of Wested website and my wish to believe things) that the Washed Goat is essentially the correct leather for the LC jacket. But is it? Do you know what kind of leather was used for that jacket because I sure don't.

Regardless, I'm fascinated by your investigation, and am most eager to know the truth. I doubt it will make much difference to me in regards to future purchases (I have two Indy jacket that I LOVE and one that's worth keeping around), but you never know. If someone can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt who made the LC jacket and in what hide, I may one day buy one. In the meantime, thank god for Tony Nowak.

And _ for his search for the truth!

Daren Henry W

[Indiana Strones]

Well, you know there is an old thread about this.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27943&hilit=smithsonian

Looking at those pics I personally have no doubt. Too much details are identical. One can make fake scratches on the jacket, ok, but not an identical collar corner shape. It's my opinion, of course, and I don't want to convince anyone.

[crismans]

As far as your question #1), I don't think that the Bantu Wind jacket could be the Hawaii jacket. There are a couple of big differences between them (the larger yoke of the BW being the most prominent). In fact, the only jacket that that features a similar yoke is the truck drag jacket (but that's a can of worms that I'm not opening right now). I'm at work but can provide a couple of caps to show this once I get home.

The Hawaii jacket does appear to greatly resemble another jacket used in the film and a team of "top men" are gathering the necessary evidence to show this.

When I bought it last year, I was under the impression (because of Wested website and my wish to believe things) that the Washed Goat is essentially the correct leather for the LC jacket. But is it? Do you know what kind of leather was used for that jacket because I sure don't.

The LC has always been puported to be lamb, although in some scenes it does bear a strong resemblance to cowhide (and I think _ thought Ford's jacket bore a strong resemblance to cow).

[sebas]

_, this is excellent. As you cryptically stated in the previous Wested thread:

"I think that there is an opportunity - and an obligation - to look at what we know, what we think we know, and what we believe. Thing that once seemed obvious before just don't feel that way in light of newer information and old information in a newer light..."

Right on! We're all looking forward to see how this enigma unravels.
Cheers!

[Hatch]

Oh No !! _ you're not saying that my 'Certificate of Authenticy' might decrease in value ARE you........

[TheExit148]

I agree with _. The collar is not pointed on some jackets, and rounded on others; its all camera angles. Same with the top of the storm flap. I think its one style but some angles make it look rounded, and others make it look more square.

[lantzn]

I feel a grasshopper moment coming on after reading to first few posts.

I've only been around COW for about 18 months, so was does POS stand for? I know what it means outside the forum but I suppose it has to do with jackets here.

[Michaelson]

It means the same in here too. It was a jacket that was made on the 'fly', and was hated from the get/ go (as the maker didn't want to make it in the first place), and from reports we've read, Spielberg didn't like it as soon as he saw it.

So, you got it right in your first read.

Regards !Michaelson

[Yojimbo Jones]

I'll step in and say categorically the Imams jacket is the Hawaii jacket. Yes, I have evidence.

A dude with the initials N.B. has also made some observations which I may be at liberty to pass on. Mods?

[crismans]

I'll step in and say categorically the Imams jacket is the Hawaii jacket. Yes, I have evidence.

A dude with the initials N.B. has also made some observations which I may be at liberty to pass on. Mods?

I'll step in and say that I agree, in that I'm 95%+ sure that the Imams jacket is the Hawaii jacket. There appears to be (subject to further review) two main jackets in play that Ford is wearing (besides the Bantu Wind). There's no noticeable difference in pattern (and I agree that the collar ends being different is an illusion) but there are some noticeable tells in the texture of the jacket. Others have really done a lot of work on this so I feel that it's their presentation to make.

And I hope that observations alluded to by YJ can be included. They are very informative and really shed some light on this stuff.

[Michaelson]

If nb hadn't categorically and in no uncertain terms removed himself from this site, it would be an easy call, but you're asking the site administration to bend the plainly posted rules of registration that everyone agreed to when they became members. This includes participating through a second party. Is that fair to the rest of the members who abide by those rules?

You tell us?

Until then, let's keep the discussion going.....

Regards! Michaelson

[Hatch]

But I do have to agree with Crismans and Yohimbo there is some excellent work being done in a 'parallel universe' out here that hopefully all can become aware of....

[Yojimbo Jones]

Hi Michaelson,

NB hasn't participated at all. The information above is my opinion, not his. In fact, he doesn't even know I made the post above. Any further insights do fall into stuff he did play a leading role in, and I for one would feel a bit odd passing it on - it'd be his call. But yeah, he's "banned" here, which means we're into having cake and eating it territory from a rules perspective if you want his input.

Going back to certain events and the irony of _'s latest revelations, isn't a reconsideration of stances only fair?

[Michaelson]

Hi Michaelson,

NB hasn't participated at all. The information above is my opinion, not his. In fact, he doesn't even know I made the post above.

So why bring him into this at all? Go ahead and post the information/observation since it's yours.

Thing is, everything that has been discussed to date on the worldwide web, from 1996 on, both at Indyfan, IndyDiggs, etc etc and here, is based on someone's work and research. There are more individuals responsible for getting us collectively where we are today than you can shake a stick at, and it continues to evolve. 'He' was one more individual in that line, and many of his observations were made by others and shouted down years ago. It's just interesting that many of those observations that were considered heresy back then are now acceptable fodder for the research mill.

What was once old and rediculed is now new and considered acceptable discussion material again. That's good.

Regards! Michaelson

[Yojimbo Jones]

You misunderstand - the little snipped I posted above is mine. OTHER STUFF beyond that is a different story.

And no, it wasn't piggybacked on others work. That's my point. What I'm trying to say is that credit needs to be given because it is both the right thing to do and creates an audit trail. As a former academic what you describe is one of the frustrating things about the Internet - and is what causes so much of the time wasting and misinformation that ends up being perpetuated.

Transparency. It's not a bad thing.

[Michaelson]

The 'misinformation' in most cases was there because it was what folks WANTED to believe. When questions arose, loyalists of those camps jumped on individuals with pitchforks and firebrands, and many of those original posters and researchers left in disgust. This predates many of the new observations by many years.

Anyway, your proposal has been placed on the table for administrative discussion. Stay tuned. Transparency or not, basic understanding of posted rules shouldn't be too much to ask for when individuals register here. They're there for everyone. In this case, debates got heated at the time, the site was blamed, and the individual in question stormed out, demanding his account be deleted. Entirely his call.

We'll see what the webmaster says.

Until then, please carry on.

Regards !Michaelson

[Yojimbo Jones]

No problem.

[Michaelson]

[crismans]

I'll step in and say categorically the Imams jacket is the Hawaii jacket. Yes, I have evidence.

A dude with the initials N.B. has also made some observations which I may be at liberty to pass on. Mods?

Exactly the straw that broke this for me…. My problem was the story of George taking the jacket. It had me wrapped around the axle. But, throwing out assumptions and looking at it? That's where I landed. That's why I need to straighten out that story - that I've heard from the man himself. So there must be some other link. It has to be the answer. Right?

I'm assuming that he said he took it after Tunisia? He was in Hawaii for the filming. Could he have taken it after production wrapped up there? This would mean that he had the "hero" jacket (going by the Imam's=Hawaii jacket theory) to put in his office. He just "pinched" it at a later time than originally indicated/thought.

[gwyddion]

If the BW jacket was the same as the Hawaii jacket, that would mean we TN Raiders owners all have copies of the POS jacket at least, if Tony was right in stating it was the Hawaii he copied Interesting..... I might just do something I've never done before: do some stitch-nazi like research using agent5's screen-grab library.

Regards, Geert

[gwyddion]

If the BW jacket was the same as the Hawaii jacket, that would mean we TN Raiders owners all have copies of the POS jacket at least, if Tony was right in stating it was the Hawaii he copied Interesting..... I might just do something I've never done before: do some stitch-nazi like research using agent5's screen-grab library.

Regards, Geert

Geert,

I put that out there to get a reaction. I know the BW could not be the Hawaii jacket. That's where I was hung-up, and I thought y'all would scream "NO! So, I had to coax it outa ya...

As I stated, what got me off the toilet on this was the realization that the Cooper pattern if not that specific jacket MUST also be what we see in Hawaii. I also realized Sebas had a point - Wested has always used certain pattern characteristics. ALWAYS. That is what moved me off that frigging egg to say "I have no reason to believe there is a wested on fords back anywhere in Raiders.". Does this make sense?

It does make sense, but the trouble there would be either the statement by "the man himself", or the assumption there was only one cooper. What I am looking for at the moment is striations: if they are on all jackets in the exact same spots, chances are there is only one jacket worn by Ford. But some are adamant we see two main jackets throughout the movie. If this is correct, does that mean that there are two jackets by cooper, or did Peter actually manage to copy the cooper after-all? So what I'm doubting right now is whether there were two main jackets at all.

Regards, Geert

[Chewbacca Jones]

As I stated, what got me off the toilet on this was the realization that the Cooper pattern if not that specific jacket MUST also be what we see in Hawaii. I also realized Sebas had a point - Wested has always used certain pattern characteristics. ALWAYS. That is what moved me off that frigging egg to say "I have no reason to believe there is a wested on fords back anywhere in Raiders.". Does this make sense?

I'm not a major detail hound, so any input I might have would be pretty useless. But I have always felt there was something off about the Wested jacket and Peter's stand on the pattern details. I've never had reason to doubt your work before, but it still stuck in my craw. I'm very interested to see where this new direction leads.

[gwyddion]

Ok, I can't prove it as the screen-grabs aren't clear enough, but I'm getting more and more convinced that Ford only wore one jacket throughout the movie (apart from the BW jacket that is) If someone has sharper/clearer images that display the front non-stormflap-side panel than Agent5's screen-grabs (even behind the scenes shots, or on-set pictures used for publicity, anything really) please PM me.

Regards, Geert

[crismans]

If the BW jacket was the same as the Hawaii jacket, that would mean we TN Raiders owners all have copies of the POS jacket at least, if Tony was right in stating it was the Hawaii he copied Interesting..... I might just do something I've never done before: do some stitch-nazi like research using agent5's screen-grab library.

Regards, Geert

Tony has said that the jacket he was given to copy was the Hawaii jacket. He's even gone so far as to name the time in the movie that you can get a decent shot of the jacket. Now, again, there's no definite proof that Tony's telling the truth but I've never been told or heard of anyone else being told something by him that was later shown to be untrue.

So, if we go by the supposition that Tony's telling the truth, then the Bantu Wind is not the Hawaii jacket.

But, in this case, we don't have to go just by Tony's word. The Bantu Wind jacket has a different design than the Hawaii jacket. It has a noticeably lower yoke for one thing (and many see a different strap attachment. I can't make it out clearly so I won't speculate there).

Look here:



And here is the famous dock shot that has burned a thousand threads (left photo):



I stole both of these from Holt. Thanks friend!!

Now here is a shot of the Hawaii jacket. Smaller yoke. :



There is also quite a bit of evidence that the Hawaii jacket is, in fact, the jacket used in the Imam's house. But YJ is who came up with that evidence (this time around) so I'll let him handle that.

But to answer another of Geert's thoughts. Here (Hawaii jacket):

and what I term the Flying Wing jacket:


Look at the right panel (Ford's perspective). Both jackets are dusty so the striations should really pop out.

[Texan Scott]

The Well of Souls jacket, the famous still of Ford in front of the cobra, this jacket has the slimmer yoke also. In theory, wouldn't all the filmed sequences at Elstree be the same jacket, also?

[Band Director Jones]

I think the proof that Leather Concessionaires / Wested Leather / Peter Botwright made the jackets for Raiders is that none of them look alike. Just like no two Westeds look alike.

[gwyddion]

If the BW jacket was the same as the Hawaii jacket, that would mean we TN Raiders owners all have copies of the POS jacket at least, if Tony was right in stating it was the Hawaii he copied Interesting..... I might just do something I've never done before: do some stitch-nazi like research using agent5's screen-grab library.

Regards, Geert

Tony has said that the jacket he was given to copy was the Hawaii jacket. He's even gone so far as to name the time in the movie that you can get a decent shot of the jacket. Now, again, there's no definite proof that Tony's telling the truth but I've never been told or heard of anyone else being told something by him that was later shown to be untrue.

So, if we go by the supposition that Tony's telling the truth, then the Bantu Wind is not the Hawaii jacket.

But, in this case, we don't have to go just by Tony's word. The Bantu Wind jacket has a different design than the Hawaii jacket. It has a noticeably lower yoke for one thing (and many see a different strap attachment. I can't make it out clearly so I won't speculate there).

Look here:



And here is the famous dock shot that has burned a thousand threads (left photo):



I stole both of these from Holt. Thanks friend!!

Now here is a shot of the Hawaii jacket. Smaller yoke. :



There is also quite a bit of evidence that the Hawaii jacket is, in fact, the jacket used in the Imam's house. But YJ is who came up with that evidence (this time around) so I'll let him handle that.

But to answer another of Geert's thoughts. Here (Hawaii jacket):



and what I term the Flying Wing jacket:



Look at the right panel (Ford's perspective). Both jackets are dusty so the striations should really pop out.

In the area marked with the red arrow in the next pic you can actually make out some striation lines, but the pic isn't in focus enough to make sure they're in roughly the same spot or even the right number.


The thing I am also interested in is the line, roughly 3" or 4" above the pocket, leading all the way to the zipper that is indicated with the blue arrow. I can see hints of that line in almost all of agent5's screen-grabs that show that panel. It's just not clear enough to be absolutely sure.

Regards, Geert

[DarenHenryW]

I think the proof that Leather Concessionaires / Wested Leather / Peter Botwright made the jackets for Raiders is that none of them look alike. Just like no two Westeds look alike.

Oh, man. That made me laugh, for sure!

DHW

[Holt]

Imams jacket and the Hawaii jacket.




this is the same jacket.

[DeWayne]

This thread is a fascinating read.

[gwyddion]

Wow, great info! Thanks for taking the time to do this!

Regards, Geert

[crismans]

The Well of Souls jacket, the famous still of Ford in front of the cobra, this jacket has the slimmer yoke also. In theory, wouldn't all the filmed sequences at Elstree be the same jacket, also?

The only jackets I have seen that have that bigger yoke is the Bantu Wind jacket and the TL stunt jacket. If the Bantu Wind and the Wilsons is the same jacket (which is a theory I think RC advanced a little while ago, among others), then that would explain the similarities. All other jackets that I've seen have the smaller yoke.

[gwyddion]

The Well of Souls jacket, the famous still of Ford in front of the cobra, this jacket has the slimmer yoke also. In theory, wouldn't all the filmed sequences at Elstree be the same jacket, also?

The only jackets I have seen that have that bigger yoke is the Bantu Wind jacket and the TL stunt jacket. If the Bantu Wind and the Wilsons is the same jacket (which is a theory I think RC advanced a little while ago, among others), then that would explain the similarities. All other jackets that I've seen have the smaller yoke.

Yes, but it is quite possible that almost all we see Ford wearing is the Cooper and that what we thought of as the Wilson jacket is actually the POS, like Spielberg is adamant about.
This would explain why I see that line in every grab I looked at: it would be present everywhere if it was the same jacket.

Regards, Geert

[crismans]

That's actually what I meant if the Bantu Wind (POS) and "Wilsons" were actually the same and there really wasn't a Wilsons used in the truck gag. I phrased that poorly.

Like I said, I'm convinced that the Imam's house jacket and the Hawaii jacket is the same. I'm not prepared to give up that there is another jacket in the mix, however. Everyone needs to keep digging until we get to the bottom of it.

Here's another tell (first pointed out to me by Yojimbo). Look at the collar stand where it meets the storm flap on the jacket in the temple. See that deep crease in the collar stand?



It's also in the Raven Bar jacket:



But it isn't there in the Hawaii jacket (ignore the red arrow for now-that's something else ):





Nor on the Imam's jacket (lightened to show detail but otherwise untouched):



Again, it was Yojimbo who brought this to my attention.

But I do understand where you're coming from on if there were two jackets that Ford wore the most, then the question becomes who made the second jacket? _, this probably has a simple answer I'm just missing in my weariness, but we've all heard the story of the orders (prototype, second order of jackets that didn't match, and third order of three). I was wondering your thoughts about how that falls in the New World Order. Did Leather Concessionaires make the other jackets or did B and N make them in house? Or is it too early to tell?

I keep thinking I'm right on the verge of something clicking here but the tumblers just won't fall.

[ANZAC_1915]

2.) A little bird (who I'm working on letting me name her) who worked for Anthony Powell on both Temple of Doom and Last Crusade, believes Harrison wore the prototype jacket for Last Crusade, and that Harrison kept that jacket. Now, I've held that jacket - but I did not "examine" it. I did not want to look like a geek. I'm working on that one from a few angles...

While the Raiders stuff is fascinating, for LC are you suggesting that HF only wore one jacket all through Last Crusade, including the Coronado boat scene where it was completely water soaked, and on the tank where he was dragged along the cliff, landed on the rubber tracks etc?

[gwyddion]

I see what you are pointing out. The funny thing is, all of those jackets have that line/scratch on it in the same place as well By now I wish I had better pictures

Remember the blue arrow? Look closely at where it's pointing:






The only ones I couldn't find a screen-grab for amongst Agent5's set were the imam jacket and the truck chase jacket. I see the same line in all of these, and even saw it on my DVD Am I imagining things, or is it actually there?

Regards, Geert

[RCSignals]

Ok... Other than "puckering" what's the difference between Imam and Hawaii? No mentioning of materials - just pattern. NOTE: I'm gonna push back hard on the collar, because I don't think there is pointed and rounded. I think that is all angles. Have at it…

Basically, I'm calling into question another legend that I'll have to deal with in the corner office at Skywalker.

There is no difference, it is the same jacket.


I agree, there are no 'round' collar ends. I also believe there is no round collar stand end. Of the two main (shall I say Cooper style since we are now calling the jacket Cooper) we see Ford wear, they both actually have squared collar stand ends. What we perceive as rounded on one is actually illusion.

[RCSignals]

I agree with _. The collar is not pointed on some jackets, and rounded on others; its all camera angles. Same with the top of the storm flap. I think its one style but some angles make it look rounded, and others make it look more square.

I agree with that, they are all 'angled' - pointed collar ends -

I agree all storm flap ends are squared. (at least on those 'Cooper' styled jackets. BW, truck drag, probably as well)

NOTE: I'm gonna push back hard on the collar, because I don't think there is pointed and rounded. I think that is all angles. Have at it…