Could the Raiders crease actually be bad for the felt

[Bruce Wayne]

A while back I recreased my Penman Last Crusade into a Raiders becasue i wanted to. Today i decided to re-recrease it back to a Last Crusade becasue I recieved my Wested Last Crusade back. During the steaming, recrease, steam it some more phase I thought of something: could that Razor sharp, nice & tight front pinch actually create a weak spot in the felt? I am not talking about people grabbing it there & wearing a hole in it. I am talking about after several reblocks, however far apart, you create a spot in the felt that can actually tear or rip apart?

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanx!!!
Charlie

[Indiana Bugs]

Although Ive never done it myself, I have heard from numerous sources that a very sharp pinch will damage the felt to the extent that will most likely leave a permanent mark when trying to reshape a hat.

[binkmeisterRick]

I've seen some folks literally use a clamp to create that front pinch. In a word, yes, it will weaken the felt. It might not be an instant tear or hole, but the fact is that in forcing such a tight and sharp crease as such, you are technically compromising the felt. Again, this doesn't mean that a week from now your hat will fall apart, but over time, constant sharp creasing will leave a weaker spot there, susceptible to a hole in the felt.

[agent5]

Graham at Optimo always said that you should roll your hat if you have to but never crease it tightly as it will damage the felt.

[Weston]

As one who has finally learned his lesson after ruining many hundreds of dollars worth of hats, I can tell you that the problem is not with the pinch as much as it is with the need to endlessly fiddle with it. If you vascillate between styles, or re-crease or re-block it needlessly, you will wear out the felt. I don't believe you will ever have a problem with a tight Raider's style pinch as long as you aren't re-ceasing it all the time.

Weston

[Chewbacca Jones]

Well, I agree that playing with it will be a bad thing, where simply bashing a hat should not cause damage. However, it's important to remember what it takes to get the Raiders crease to stay. It require a bit of "muscle" rather than just pinch and done. Getting felt to retain that sharp crease... or more accurately, fold... is not healthy for the felt. If you avoid messing with it, you should be fine and not see any real damage. However, that place will be weaker. The quality of the felt will probably be the deciding factor in how much weaker and if it will matter in the long run.

[generalFROSTY]

I've had my Henry for over a week now and the crease has settled in very nice - I'm actually scared to mess with any of it for fear of wearing out the felt! I had to practice NOT to handle the hat at the pinch, but thankfully I have gotten used to taking it off and on by the brim.

[Michaelson]

Can't add a thing but to say I've worn through one hat in my life at the front of the crown, and it was due to handling, not the tight crease.

I have NEVER been a fan of the tight Raiders crease for the very reason it does crack the fibers and weakens the felt. It was a very popular style in the 30's, and was why they reproduced it for Raiders, but it has never been one of mine for the very reason it damages the hat.

Regards! Michaelson

[HarryStreet]

David Morgan, distributor of Akubra hats in the US, offers the same warning on his web site and in the hat care booklet that comes with his hats, about handling the crease too much causing wear to the felt.

http://www.davidmorgan.com/hatcare.html

Have any of our hat makers weighed in on this, John or Steve, say? Surely they would notice any concerns in the crease with all the re-blocks or refinishing that they do on our hats.

[DR Ulloa]

I think Steve has said that he guarantees his felt for life and if a hole is worn into the hat with regular use, not abuse, he will replace the felt.. So I would think that the felt is more a concern than the crease itself. Personally, I don't crease my hats nearly as sharp as most of the guys here but it definately is a tight pinch. I've never liked the razor sharp pinch and don't think the Raiders hat had one; it being more an issue of the lighting accenting that tight crease. Either way, I'm sure it does strain the felt but if you have nice dense felt, I wouldn't really worry about.

Dave

[BendingOak]

It's more the handling than the crease.
Just think of the brim break. It's a big crease going all the way around your hat. Now, that is a weak point compared to the rest of the hat but it's not going to wear away ( we are talking good quality felt) and thats if the sweatband stitching didn't leave thousands of holes near the brim break ( like most machine made hats). I would say that any of the other Indy styles of creases would be less prone to wearing out but doesn't mean it wont. Handle them by the pinch and they will wear out one day as well.

Just remember that any hatter you talk with most likely will be talking abut their quality of felt. I think the guys around here who has owned and re-blocked ever label is Steve. first and foremost. I have owned a lot of labels and if I didn't own them I have re-blocked them now.
Most I can not put them though what I do my own felt or my other two buddy's felts. Most of the time I go though a different process to re-furbish and re-block other labels. Now I'm starting to ramble. I guess Steve's Mad Hatter syndrome is catchy. sorry Steve.

[generalFROSTY]

John, did you get the Mad Hatter hat yet? Yeah...you need one of those!

[Local Land Surveyor]

I believe thickness of the felt plays into this. The felt I use to make my hats are thicker than that of, say, an Optimo. My Optimo is a thin felt. Felt is a bundle of overlaping fibers that acts as a single unit. The thicker it is, the more resistant it is to separating. It has flexabilty to it, so it can "give", thus "bashing" works well. I have not experienced any wear on my hats that would lead me to think that this would eventually happen. I have noticed on reblocking felts, that it takes more "elbow grease" to get the tight pinch out. I haven't seen any visible damage to the felt in this spot due to the bash. I would imagine that abrasion forces have more to do with the felt "wearing through" to cause a hole. Grabbing the hat at the front might assist this, but thicker felt would be more resistant to it than thinner felt.
I own some old Steson hats. One does have a hole in it it that occurred twenty plus years into its life. I know that ten of the last years of its life the hat sat domant and unused in a box. The felt had "set up". When I changed the bash style, a hole eventually was made. This hat was produce in the 60's to my knowledge. It is a thinner felt than I use and had more stiffener that I prefer.

LLS

[binkmeisterRick]

BO - I sweat... I sweat when I tie my shoes... I have fairly oily skin. I worry about handling hats in general - and I feel a little nervous at events where people want to hand you their prized lid. Is body oil / sweat something that is gonna destroy the felt?

Thanks!

Do you sweat acid? Wait, don't answer that. I have several hats I've sweat completely through on multiple occasions, one or two I have specifically for swing dancing. While sweat can eventually dry out and cause the sweatband to fall apart, I've never had a hat's felt fall apart due to sweat. I think the felt is more resilient to it, and a good cleaning usually takes care of sweat and stains.

[BendingOak]

BO - I sweat... I sweat when I tie my shoes... I have fairly oily skin. I worry about handling hats in general - and I feel a little nervous at events where people want to hand you their prized lid. Is body oil / sweat something that is gonna destroy the felt?

Thanks!

Good question. I think if you handle someones hat I would handle it by the brim and not grab the pinch or the crown. I think sweat or even oils on the hands can be cleaned
from the brim and not cause damage. I handle my own daily raiders beaver penman by the pinch and it's holding up fine. It
does show sign from all the oils and stuff from my hands but a good cleaning will take that away. You might ask why I treat my daily hat this way. Simple, to put it to the test. It's about two years old and it has become an old friend. If it can hold up to the stuff I do to this poor thing. It should hold up to normall wear and tear of a life time. Bulldog tuff.



Cuts down on the wear and tear of the hat but I agree with LLS. The quality of the felt and how dence the felt is will resist from getting dried out.

[BendingOak]

Hey BO,

I understand perfectly - your hat is to you as my jacket is to me. It is an old friend, but it has been my test subject as well. Thanks for the feedback!

Your welcome. What jacket are we talking about.

[IndianaSean]

BO - I sweat... I sweat when I tie my shoes... I have fairly oily skin. I worry about handling hats in general - and I feel a little nervous at events where people want to hand you their prized lid. Is body oil / sweat something that is gonna destroy the felt?

Thanks!

Do you sweat acid? Wait, don't answer that. I have several hats I've sweat completely through on multiple occasions, one or two I have specifically for swing dancing. While sweat can eventually dry out and cause the sweatband to fall apart, I've never had a hat's felt fall apart due to sweat. I think the felt is more resilient to it, and a good cleaning usually takes care of sweat and stains.

Good gracious Bink!! I think when we met and you showed me your fedora I accidentally grabbed it by the pinch now that I recall!! I am sorry!! Other than the gear foul, it was great meeting ya!

Respectfully,
Sean

[Mulceber]

I guess Steve's Mad Hatter syndrome is catchy. sorry Steve.

Could I get a 7 1/2 on a Raiders block? -M

[binkmeisterRick]

Good gracious Bink!! I think when we met and you showed me your fedora I accidentally grabbed it by the pinch now that I recall!! I am sorry!! Other than the gear foul, it was great meeting ya!

Respectfully,
Sean

Oh, no worries, Sean! I still pick up my hats by the pinch now and then. Besides, the occasional pick-up-by-the-pinch isn't really going to do anything, it's when you pick up a hat by the pinch every single day over along period of time that a hole will eventually appear. Think of it this way, if you wipe your hands against your jeans, they won't fall apart. But if you sit there for hours on end rubbing your hands on your jeans, that's a different story.

And yes, it was nice meeting you, too!

[Michaelson]

This discussion has slowly evolved from the original question, does putting the sharp crease in the Raiders bash damage the felt, to does handling the hat by the crown damage the hat.

Let's face it, our hats are not crates of eggs. They can take a licking and keep on ticking. Anything done in repetition in the same area can and will 'damage' a hat due to sheer wear and tear at a concentrated point. That said, though, don't leave this thread thinking handling your hat by the crown is going to ruin it. As BOak and bink have said, and shown in practice, our hats are tough and can take it. Just don't overdo over the years.

Back to the ORIGINAL question, anything creased enough to break the fibers I consider irreversable damage. That's why I've never been a fan of the sharp crease myself.....looks good, but what has to be done to a hat in order to look good just isn't worth the 'gain' to me. JMO, though.

Regards! Michaelson

[Mulceber]

Although Fedora has made a guarantee that if you ever get a hole in one of his beaver hats from holding it by the pinch, he'll replace it for free. So it sounds like higher end hats don't get damaged much if at all. -M

[Fedora]

Yep, the tight pinch will eventually break the felt. But variables must be considered. A rabbit hat will break before a beaver hat, given the same thickness. A low quality felt will break before a high quality felt. And so on.

What I run into with the really razor thin creases is a discoloration, forming a lighter line, where the crease is. I have seen this on a couple of reblocks. But, the felt was still strong, so I did not worry about the crease breaking. I just have to put the crease back into the same spot, once the reblock is done. No big deal. I figure even if a customer maintains the tight front pinch in my own line, I doubt you will see any tearing for a few decades, which by then, I will be dead! So, go easy with the tightness and don't fiddle with it once you get the crease in. The oil from the fingers may not help either, as it is not the right kind of oil to use on felt. Not to mention the amount of salt that gets on the pinch from your sweaty fingers. Salt is not good for fur.

Also if the hat body has mucho shallac, like a cowboy hat, the shellac will break the fur fibers. Shellac is an enemy to tight creases.

Hey that picture of the mad hatter, resembles me before my perfuctory 2 cups of coffee each morning. Cept, he has hair! Fedora

[BendingOak]

Hey BO,

I understand perfectly - your hat is to you as my jacket is to me. It is an old friend, but it has been my test subject as well. Thanks for the feedback!

Your welcome. What jacket are we talking about.

For the last two years it's been a Tony Nowak Crystal Skull in cowhide. I've - uh - cycled through many over the years in the search. None have lasted with me this long before I looked for something different. This one seems to have "scratched the itch." Know what I mean?

No to drive this train off track but I had a feeling you were going to say that. I just got my CS from Tony last week and I have to agree with you my search is now over. He makes a darn good jacket.


I think Steve covered everything here. I tell all my customers the same thing. Work the crease until it stays and then leaver it be.

[Fedora]

I just got my CS from Tony last week and I have to agree with you my search is now over. He makes a darn good jacket.

Yeah, I am still impressed with my own CS jacket Bernie had made for me. But, I still wear my Wested Raiders jacket too. Off topic, but you guys opened the door...this time.

[NoodlesBubblesBeans]

My hat has started to wear out near the top of the crease, as I can never quite get the shape the way I want it. So I believe that handling the crease like that may cause it to wear down.

[generalFROSTY]

I can't get my center Raiders pinch to extend the whole way down to the ribbon. The way my head fits into the hat, it actually pushes the pinch back out in this area. I'm not sure if this has something to do with the way I originally bashed it or not, but once I have it reblocked this summer I will give it another whirl.

[BendingOak]

I can't get my center Raiders pinch to extend the whole way down to the ribbon. The way my head fits into the hat, it actually pushes the pinch back out in this area. I'm not sure if this has something to do with the way I originally bashed it or not, but once I have it reblocked this summer I will give it another whirl.

Take another look. The front pinch shouldn't go all the way to the ribbon and it shouldn't be as tight as some have done to there hats either.

[generalFROSTY]

I'm using the intro to Raiders as my inspiration for my bash.
Perhaps it is lighting, but there are shots in the movie where the pinch looks pretty sharp. Once I feel a little bit better and can start moving around again, I will take some shots of my hat and post them here. I'm not going for any exact replication, just an approximate 'look'. I think when I get another hat down the road I will try and do an exact replica of one of the versions, but for now, I am going for the Raiders intro look.
I don't think I have the pinch too tight at all - but then again, I'm still new at this where I really don't have the experience as a lot of other guys who have owned and bashed many hats.

[Bruce Wayne]

Bump

[Michaelson]

What's left to say? The answer is yes, you can.

Regard! Michaelson