Dent in Ford's forehead produces crucial hat feature.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:18 am

The dent in the Raiders hat over Indy's right eye that extends under the ribbon is possibly due to the unusual valleys and ridges in his forehead. They even put a dent in the Nazi hat? I don't have ridges in my head but I got the dent by putting two pieces of folded t.p. in my sweatband.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:52 am

3kB you start to scare me

I have the hightest respect for your dedication to detail when it comes to the perfect Raiders Fed., but sometimes your precise analyzes give me a shiver.

Regards,

Marc

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:30 am

Amazing, 3thoubucks!

Excellent eye for observation. When we get the PERFECT screen accurate fedora, it'll be in large measure thanks to you!

Regarsd,

Farn

Spatterdash · Post by **Spatterdash** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:25 am

I agree,
that kind of detail is disturbing, almost ghoulish...I love it.

When this info is compiled, I say it should be in an FAQ all it's own. I think it's that important, yes I do, and that is high praise, coming from a spat-wearin' snob like me!

Modern Jones · Post by **Modern Jones** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:58 am

Anyone ever hit a golf ball? "Keep your back straight, knees bent, hold the club lightly, but not too light ....."

That's like trying to get a fedora to look like Raiders. "Keep your crown straight, brim bent, turn the hat slightly, but not too much ....."

3K$ is our instructor helping us with all these things that'll all be natural one day very soon! Sometimes we'll get it right (like a golf swing) and other times we'll hook or slice. It should be that challenging. Cause when you hit it right, it's a beautiful thing!!!

Cheers 3K$!!! Impressive work!

Regards,

Skip

auntsugar · Post by **auntsugar** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:03 am

I sure hope this topic doesn't spawn more "self-mutilation" stories...

Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:12 pm

I got that effect naturally, very cool. It's all about how you wear it. If it's too tight, or too far back on your head it won't show. Try a few different ways of wearing it in the mirror, you'll get it...

Post by **Indy Magnoli** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:53 pm

You know, if you slam the MKII idol up against your forehead at the right angle, I believe you can achieve that same bump...

Sorry, Aunt Sugar... I couldn't resist.

Kind regards,
Indy

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:05 pm

I was thinking a shovel, Indy, but I suppose the MkII idol would do just as well.

Regards. Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:46 pm

I just got off the phone with a fellow who works in the movie industry on the West Coast, specifically the prop supply part of the industry, who will remain un-named at his request, but he's been around the business for quite a while. In the discussion, I mentioned all these discussions regarding the dents, bumps and 'swoops' in the brim that everyone is trying to copy in the Indiana Jones trilogy, specifically Raiders. I directed him to this thread (among others), and he laughed. He told me that the standard practice in the industry was to always hand a hat ONE SIZE SMALLER to the principal actor anytime they are going to be involved in any streneous action scenes. I specifically mentioned the fight scenes from Raiders, and he said 'perfect example'. By making it a smaller size, they do not have to worry about reshooting scenes with the hat flying off during a stunt. This smaller hat will deform along the brim due to the smaller size, but that is never a concern, as who is going to look at the scene with a microscope and notice that anyway. (He don't know us, do he?

) When they have non-action scene, the principal then dons a correctly sized hat, and they go on with the shooting of the movie. This would account for the continued change from scene to scene of the fit and shape of the fedora. I don't have any reason to doubt this fellow, as he's been in the business for decades, and I have experienced the same thing anytime I put on a size 7 1/4 fedora regarding these dents and swoops of the brim, but never do when wearing a 7 3/8 long oval. Just some things to mull over. Regards. Michaelson

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:59 pm

I guess that puts an end to the staple gun theory HF help perpetuate in some of those action scenes. <sigh>

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:01 pm

I thought of that one too, Rixter. Apparently they didn't HAVE a smaller sized hat that day, and Ford had to use his regular size fedora. Proof was in the out takes. Regards. Michaelson

Post by **Mike** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:12 pm

Michaelson wrote:... always hand a hat ONE SIZE SMALLER to the principal actor anytime they are going to be involved in any streneous action scenes.

I agree with you and your industry insider and believe this fits in with my theory on 3K$'s original post, where I suggested that his hat was either small or an oval going on a long oval head. I stated then too, that if you pull... gently... your hat from front to back those swoops, bumps, etc. magically appear. This is evident in my too small '90 HJ when it's on top of my noggin. I also said then that I think 3K's turn is a good way to get the look without the headache of a tight hat.

Oh, and Rixter... maybe the staple gun is what caused those unusual bumps in Ford's noggin.

Mike

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:45 pm

Why do I get the feeling that people here may start stuffing their fedora brims with toilet paper....

Seriously though, how many of your are gonna go compare the fedora in the action scenes vs. the non-action scenes?

Lindiana · Post by **Lindiana** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:06 pm

not me ITG I've been banging my head off the kitchen counter to try and get my skull the right shape. When it gets close or I wake up from my coma I'll let you guys know how it worked.
Lindy

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:32 am

Ford has a sloping forehead, but I have fairly vertical one. I can't get that dent without stuffing the brim there, because there's not enough space between the felt and my scull. So if you want this dent but don't have a sloping scull, this works. If I just stuff one rolled up piece of t.p. way down in the band at the crown/brim junction, mimicing Ford's head slope (but without a dent) I can't get a decent dent, compared to using using two pieces to form a gap. If ford didn't have that visible dent in his head, I can't say a dent wouldn't have formed in his hat here, but I bet it wouldn't have been as spectacular.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:28 am

I just looked at a bunch of L.C. stills Rundquist posted- There's nothing. Michaelson is right, the Raiders hat is tight. Turning the hat produces a tighter fit, as Pyroxene has recently confirmed. (The L.C. hat wasn't turned) Also, a turn to the right gives you more felt to bash in the right dent. ....As for your taper in back- the whole crown is tapered on your old Fed, so it can't be avoided.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:36 am

A dent you say? I am working on it as we speak.

Fedora

Post by **Ken** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:43 pm

Michaelson wrote: He told me that the standard practice in the industry was to always hand a hat ONE SIZE SMALLER...

Michaelson

This is indeed fascinating. After the QM summit I let Dan (Rick Blaine) try on my hat (Akubra Federation). Now it was one size smaller than what he regularly wears. However when he put it on he was astonished - he said it looked far more Raiders than any hat he had ever put on before. It even resulted in mushroom effect reverse taper. We came to the conclusion that the way to acheive the Raiders effect was to order one size smaller than you actually take - this was the advice I followed when ordering my Keppler and by gosh it is the best Raiders hat I have ever had (though I think thats not just due to the sizing!).

Me wearing the Akubra

Dan wearing the Akubra

Ken

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:07 am

I can confirm what Ken is saying about the hat. This event took place either on June 1 or June 2, 2003 at the Holiday Inn in Hollywood. Dan definitely had a mushroom effect going on with Ken's Federation. (hheeehee)

P.S. That pic above is of Dan sitting at MK's desk!

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:45 am

Hey Indiana Ken? I don't know if you are aware of it, but your hat has the Raiders turn in your picture. The front pinch is way to the right, and you're getting the peak in the right side of the brim and the dip in front of your right eye. ...Or are you just mocking me?? ..

Can I borrow this picture? I'd like to add it to the "Gallery of the Turned Hats" on my "Raiders Turn" web page! (see the link below)

Demented Wookie · Post by **Demented Wookie** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 8:01 am

I took my fed which is normally a little lose and gave it a slight turn. That helped get the Raiders brim, but then I put the foam in it to downsize a little and BAM! there it was "the" Raiders brim complete with swoops and dips. Now all I gotta do is de-stiffen the brim a bit and beat it up a little (as it still looks to new) and it should look darn good I think. Just thought I'd drop in my 2 cents.
Regards,
-Chewie

Post by **Ken** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:58 am

I realised the centre dent was a bit off centre, but I never deliberatly meant to turn the hat as such. But feel free to use the picture for your gallery 3thoubucks. However I am afraid I cant take any further pictures of the hat since it is now in the care of Dan.

Ken

PS - someday I fully intend to try out your theory after seeing the great results that haver been acheived with it.

PPS - I wouldn't mock you - but looks like these people are

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:11 am

Maybe the 90 degree turn would be a little drastic.

Fedora

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:07 pm

But the question is...were these features (bumps, dips, turns, shape of oval, etc.) designed into the hat intentionally, or were they just happy accidents? Also condider that the hats in the subsequent films didn't look as wrinkled...perhaps that indicates that this look was an accidental combination of the block shape and the quality of felt. Is it a matter that they didn't WANT the hat to look rumpled in the sequels, or they didn't know HOW to make the hat look the same in the sequels? My theory is that after the ROTLA became such a hit, they made much better quality hats for the sequels.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:00 pm

I think they were rich and lazy in the era of the sequels. Here's some more head dent. Thanks Indiana Ken, your picture is added to the gallery.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:16 pm

Puppetboy wrote: "My theory is that after the ROTLA becam ... e sequels.".
My theory is that the Raiders felt was more of a dress vintage quality, a lightweight, thinner felt like the Optimo. HJ changed felt providers almost like I change clothes.

All of the little idiosyncrisis of the Raiders hat is due to the block, and how the thin felt reacts to the environment. This type of felt is common on vintage hats and I have several Stetsons to prove it. You can never achieve a true Raiders look without the thin pliable felt. regards, Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:53 pm

I think the effect is more from a tight ribbon than anything else. The first pic shows the hat resting at about hairline level, not on Ford's forehead at all. I think in the 120 degree heat they removed the liner and sweatband and tightened up the ribbon. With the hat siting back and not so snug on his head the elasticity of the ribbon would pull the felt together a bit, thus producing the pucker in the right front dent. I demonstrated this a couple of years ago in the old forum with my first Federation which was about to become my first block. I did exactly as described above and the result was about the same. The only pic I have of this hat is my old avatar:

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:00 am

The ribbon may have been tight, promoting dent formation when the hat was off. The dent is sometimes seen with the hat on normaly. This is probably a blue screen, or rear projection sound stage shot, before they went to North Africa. I'm certain my hat would look more Raiders if the felt was thinner/softer.

Spatterdash · Post by **Spatterdash** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:37 pm

Seriously 3thoubucks,

I would wholeheartedly support your research being available at Indygear.com, either as a link to your website or as a page maintained by the Indygear server.
You have my sincere admiration, and I'd bet Belloq's hookah that others will support the idea as well. Even a non-participant in COW could visit the Indygear site and get advice on the enigmatic Raiders bash, and that would be of great assistance to Indyfans all over the world.

Post by **Ken** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:08 pm

I think a tight ribbon nails it. Put everything together and thats it! I will definitly be trying this out sometime.

Ken

Dent in Ford's forehead produces crucial hat feature.

Dent in Ford's forehead produces crucial hat feature.

Interesting phone call

Re: Interesting phone call

Re: Interesting phone call