Vintage Hat-sewing machine

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:56 pm

Well, with Steve's helpful post on his 2006 AB, I've managed to gather some info that will perhaps resolve some of the disagreements that surfaced in this thread. I made the assertion that sewing machines could do the same kind of stitches done by some hatters here by hand. I was speaking of sewing machines I've had experience with, such as are used by tailors to make garments and other items out of fabric or leather. These machines can do pretty much any kind of stitch that exists, except some rare and specialized stitches using a curved needle, which are used for upholstering. Nowadays, they can even do embroidery and fine decorative stitches. However, when Steve Delk mentioned in this thread that the machine used by hatters to sew on sweatbands was the Singer 107, that brought something to light I wasn't aware of. The Singer 107 is an antique machine not made anymore, and it is one of an old style of sewing machines that use a single-thread chain stitch. This is a thread that has, as the name indicates, one thread that simply runs in an out of the fabric. Once broken somewhere, the whole thing unravels easily. I would bet this is what Steve, and hence John, were familiar with as far as sweatband machine stitching, and that they were improving upon by doing it by hand with a stitch that better secures each thread so the line of stitches isn't unraveled easily if one breaks.

The problem came in when I made my assertion about sewing machines, since I am familiar with machines that use, by default, a dual-thread "lock-stitch." I was not aware that any sewing machines currently in use used the single-thread chain stitch anymore. Tailoring sewing machines haven't for the better part of a century. The single-thread chain stitch is very, very old and, as stated, not very strong. Here is a quotation from a Wikipedia article on chain stitching that explains this: "Chain stitch was the stitch used by early sewing machines; however, as it is easily unraveled from fabric, this was soon replaced with the more secure lock-stitch." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_stitch. I am not sure why these specialized hatting sewing machines continued to use that stitch, when general sewing machines had long abandoned it.

Here is an article that contains an animated illustration that shows how a typical sewing machine's lock-stitch is formed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockstitch. Lock-stitches are pretty strong, and though any stitch can be unraveled if enough threads are broken in it (unless you tie off a knot in the thread after every stitch), these will be very strong and would not come loose unless you deliberately cut several of the stitches with scissors or something and pulled very hard on the material sewed together. You can also do all kinds of other stitches with them that would secure it even further, if you really felt it was necessary. They also would make very tiny holes, as you can use a much wider selection of needles on these machines, than on the Singer 107 and probably similar industrial hatter machines.
So I hope this info is helpful to the curious, and maybe will help clear up some misunderstanding that resulted from the recent discussion on sweatband sewing with machines versus hand-sewn.

For those who may be interested, here is the user manual for the Singer 107 sweat-sewing machines - http://parts.singerco.com/IPinstManuals/107_1_2.pdf.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:34 pm

Interesting, so neither of you were wrong. You just were talking about different sewing machines!

-M

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:38 pm

That's my understanding of it right now, M.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:30 pm

That is very interesting. There still are those that prefer hand stitching for other reasons aside from this. But I don't want to take this off topic. I would like to know why modern sewing machines are not used in the production of factory hats today. There must be a reason why. It would be much more cost efficient. There must be a reason why.

Dave

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:42 am

I'm not sure but I have yet to find a modern sewing machine made for hat making of any kind.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:02 am

That's probably it - the 107, though only a single-thread, was probably made with hat-making (among other things, like tailoring) in mind. By the time they invented double-thread, hats had probably decreased enough in popularity that there was no point in making double-thread machines capable of sewing hats. At least, that's my hypothesis based on what I've read in this thread. I could well be wrong.

But who knows, maybe you've just been looking at the wrong machines. Jason, can you think of any models that you think would fulfill the needs of a haberdasher (always wanted to use that word!)? I know John won't use one (and nor will Steve, Marc or probably David), but it would be nice to have it up as a resource. -M

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:03 am

Well, I know my mother's Viking Husqvarna machine would do it, at least for fedoras with a three-inch brim or less. Cowboy hats with a four inch brim or longer might be a bit of a problem, as the long brim might have a bit of trouble fitting underneath the sewing arm, although they could be bent to fit. But none of the hatters here make cowboy hats, as far as I know.
Some cheap, simple table-top machines won't do it, as they have a flat sewing surface, but the better ones, like my mother's, have a "free arm" bottom sewing plate, that allows you to slide on something round like a sleeve or a leg. So you could slide on a hat, although you would have to probably position the sewing machine so the sewing side of it was slightly hanging over the edge of your sewing table, so the hat could have room to hang under the sewing arm. Those vintage machines had a sewing plate that hung way out to the side like a tree limb so the hat could rotate freely. Not having my mother's machine handy to demonstrate, I tool a silhouette of a Viking machine similar to hers, and rather crudely, illustrated on it how a hat might be sewn on it.

Like I said, the brim might have to be flexed outward slightly to fit under the arm, but unless you're doing a really, really stiff hat, that shouldn't prevent it from fitting under.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:15 am

Again it's not that simple. I have looked into it.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:19 am

As I understand one of the posts of Steve on this, to put the sweat in the way they do you need to put the needle in at an angle. Now my understanding is that this is impossible on a machine. Am I wrong on this?

Regards, Geert

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:42 am

BendingOak wrote:Again it's not that simple. I have looked into it.

John, have you used a Viking Husqvarna, of any kind? Could you please explain exactly why it isn't possible, instead of just making vague blanket statements like that?

I didn't start this thread to revive any conflict. I thought it would be of interest for everyone to know what kind of machine Steve was talking about, and why what I said about stitching differed from what he said. As Mulceber pointed out, we were both right about what we were talking about.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:50 am

The machine isn't set up to hold the hat and sweat in place. Don't you think I would have checked it out. The best way for you to understand is to go ahead and give the machine a try. I may not know everything about sewing machines or even know everything about hat making but I think I know hat making better than most here and don't you think with my back and lead times i would have investigated all this. Next thing you will tell me how to fight fire from reading it from a book.

Didn't start this thread to restart a conflict? What did you think it was going to do.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:03 am

Didn't start this thread to restart a conflict? What did you think it was going to do.

Uhm, judging by his first post, resolve it?

I don't think there's any need for this to get hostile, and I don't know why you get so defensive every time someone suggests that there are other ways to make hats. If it were Fedora, he'd just kindly say that he's investigated it and then he'd spend several paragraphs explaining his findings to us, rather than just saying "it doesn't work, trust me, I'm an expert." Nobody's denying that you're an expert, but don't think that that will prevent the curious minds here on COW from exploring the matter. Jason thinks that some of the higher-end sewing machines could be useful to a haberdasher. You don't. You've made that quite clear. Why this has to lead to people taking offense is beyond me. -M

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:31 am

John, as I said, I simply wanted to clarify the misunderstanding about stitches and the machines Steve was talking about and I was talking about. I didn't want anyone thinking I was calling Steve's statements about stitches into question. We were simply talking about different things, and were both right about what we were talking about.

I wasn't going to say anymore about the machine, but Mulceber asked me a direct question about these type of machines so I thought I'd answer it. I'm not saying it would be really easy to use this machine to do sweats, just that I think it could be done, if one really wanted to. I'm sure whatever machines you looked at probably wouldn't have suited your purposes. I'm not questioning that. But I know the machine my mother has could do it if someone really wanted to on it. I do plan on trying it as soon as I can get to my mother's.

There is a pressure foot on the needle housing of this machine that will hold the felt and sweat together while they are being sewn. You would have to be careful feeding it in, to keep the hat edge and sweat edge straight, but you could do it. I have no doubt that it is not as easy as on the Singer 107, since that was made with hat-sewing specifically in mind, and does have guides made particularly for the sweat on the feed-plate (where the sweat rests under the needle). It may be that this is too much of a hassle to be worth it. I was asked if I thought it was possible to sew hats on these type of machines, so I gave my honest opinion.

I would never presume to tell you how to fight fire, John. Please let's not get this thread closed as well.

Oh, and to fully answer your question Mulceber, I don't know of any hatting-specific machines that are being made today. Steve and John have searched that out quite well I'm sure. There are embroidery-specific machines, decorative stitch machines, and some other specialty machines, but I have yet to see a hatting-specific machine.

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:35 am

The last one was closed at John's request, as he was the originator of that thread and had that right.

There's no reason for this one to be closed as long as it remains civil, or unless YOU ask it to be closed, jasonalun, since you started this one.

Regards! Michaelson

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:40 am

I'm a civilian! I mean, uh, civil.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:43 am

There is a pressure foot on the needle housing of this machine that will hold the felt and sweat together while they are being sewn. You would have to be careful feeding it in, to keep the hat edge and sweat edge straight, but you could do it. I have no doubt that it is not as easy as on the Singer 107, since that was made with hat-sewing specifically in mind, and does have guides made particularly for the sweat on the feed-plate (where the sweat rests under the needle). It may be that this is too much of a hassle to be worth it. I was asked if I thought it was possible to sew hats on these type of machines, so I gave my honest opinion.

Hmm...would it be possible to create guides for the more modern sewing machines? I'm sure it would require a bit of jury-rigging, but if that's all that is making it difficult, you could probably do it. -M

Indiana Jake · Post by **Indiana Jake** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:21 pm

When hand stitching a sweatband into a hat what type of stitching pattern is used? If it is anything like my hand sewn holsters it will not unravel. The old school style of leather stitching uses one piece of thread with a needle at each end. It creates an interlocking stitch, as the thread goes all the way through from one side through to the other. To my knowledge no machine can do this type of stitch. Just my two cents worth.

Indiana Jake

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:11 pm

You know, I just don't know that much about the various sewing machines used in hatting. But, I have been told alot of times that the 107 was the one used to sew in sweats, and that they no longer make these machines. I think they were designed exclusively for hatting. And you will find these machines, in modern hat shops, antiques, because no new ones were ever made, when hats died.

Now, there may have been a brand or two of these machines that were made at one time, but the companies are long gone. So, the Singer apparently can still be repaired and you see them in alot of factories and some larger hat shops.

It did not help things when Stetson sold all of their equipment from Philly, and the company that bought it, along with the license to use the name of Stetson, trucked all that old equipment down to Texas and put a cutting torch to them, to insure any future competition would not get their hands on it. That's a true story! Imagine all of that equipment, used in the front and back shops being destroyed!!

But, there was several of the Singers left from smaller operations, and those are in the hands of hatters tody. It's an essential machine for mass production of hats.

If it were Fedora, he'd just kindly say that he's investigated it and then he'd spend several paragraphs explaining his findings

Yeah, I am a wordy devil when it comes to explaining stuff. Should have been a school teacher!!

I feel there is certainly a place for the Singer 107 and comparable brands and models. Just not in my shop! But, I personally love the idea of making a hat the way the small shops did in the old days. Plus, I can't get the same effect on the brim of an Indy fedora with a machine anyway. Plus, I like the lock stitch. But for drumming in a sweat, one of these machines sure would be handy for that. No doubt.

Hope everyone keeps cool here. This stuff ain't worth fighting about. Sometimes it just happens, and many times it is due to the written word not conveying enough. We can take something wrong, when it wasn't intended, in the manner it was understood. And I guess that is why I am so wordy. To try and make sure I am understood. But, I am a fast typer too!! My good friend John is a slow typer from what I can tell, going by his emails to me. Always short, but to the point. And this is probably why we don't see a treatise from him, like you do me!!

Let's all lighten up and enjoy being here. I have not seen a thing worth arguing about. All I see is some misunderstanding going on. Fedora

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:35 pm

Indiana Jake wrote:When hand stitching a sweatband into a hat what type of stitching pattern is used? If it is anything like my hand sewn holsters it will not unravel. The old school style of leather stitching uses one piece of thread with a needle at each end. It creates an interlocking stitch, as the thread goes all the way through from one side through to the other. To my knowledge no machine can do this type of stitch. Just my two cents worth.

Indiana Jake

Hey Jake!

I don't know exactly how you do your leather stitch, but the machines I'm talking about do many kinds of stitches, but the base stitch is a lock-stitch. Follow the link in my first post to the Wikipedia article on the machine lockstitch, and you'll see what I was talking about. It sounds like the same thing you are describing, with the interlocking threads. The machines Steve is familiar with, the specialty hat sweat-sewing machine like the Singer 107, stitched a single-thread chain stitch, which if broken in one place will unravel easily. It was just one thread woven in and out of the fabric.

Steve, glad you checked in. That's really something about all that equipment getting destroyed like that. What a shame. I really wonder, though - do you know what kind of machine Gary and Art use? Is it an antique hat-specialty machine like that Singer? They seem pretty hard to come by. I only found one place selling them, though there could be many more through back-channels and places that don't advertise on the web.

Ohio Jones · Post by **Ohio Jones** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:33 pm

I can see why John is saying that it wouldn't work. I have made a few hat, and I am in no way shape or form a fraction of an expert on this. When it comes to the sweatband you have around an 1 5/8 of the leather sweat and then this little itty bitty reed tape around 3/8 to a 1/2 inch. If you slide your belled sweat down in the crown and then pull the sweat out to access the reedtape....KABOOM!...it all wants to come out. You would have to modify a machine to hold the reed tape tight to the crown and then have something in there to move the sweat out of the way so you can sew the reed tape and not the sweatband to the hat. It would take a lot of thinking and time to figure that out. Plus like was mentioned...you would want a machine with a free arm and plenty of room, which might create some problems in securing what ever devise you come up with. Any machinists out there???????

Expense is probably a huge issue to. I am sure the singer 107 commands a hefty price...plus that is a lot of holes being perforated around the crown....a few re-blocks and the brim might sound like a check coming out of the checkbook...not good.

Just my two cents...and probably that is all its worth.

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:05 pm

Ohio, that is a good point, and that might be what John was getting at. The needle "foot" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sewingmachine04.jpg) can hold things down pretty firmly (and you can adjust it to hold tighter if you need it to hold something in place that wants to come apart), so I think it could hold it in place, especially once you get the first stitch or two in, but I can see how that could be a problem.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:34 pm

Jason, the thing I don't understand is how you are sure it will work when you haven't tried sewing in a sweatband. Modern sewing machines are not built for hat making. They may be for lock stitching or the many different stitches that you know. I'm sure it's more than me. The singer 107 is built for sewing hats( sweatbands ) but can't do the back lock stitching I'm talking about. They pull out to easy for my taste. They can not do what I do by hand. I have seen hats come into me from very fine hatters that use them but I don't like the end results, they are not the same. You might be able to rig a modern machine but would it really work well? Some have tried. Didn't like those very much. If you could have a new machine made just for sewing in hats like the singer 107. I would buy one so freaking fast. It takes me a hour to sew in a sweatband and about a half hour to sew it together. It hurts my neck and back every single time I do it. Sewing is the worst thing about making hats when it comes to my neck and back pain. I would not go though all this pain if my hats would not suffer from it. Don't you think I looked.

Steve, is right I'm the worst at typing and it's because most of the time I'm typing from my iphone. I don't really like typing ( it's another machine)

theinterchange · Post by **theinterchange** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:13 pm

I'm stepping in it here, but it seems like some folks just need to take a couple of chill pills and return when they take effect.

Randy

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:29 am

really wonder, though - do you know what kind of machine Gary and Art use? Is it an antique hat-specialty machine like that Singer

I would imagine it is the 107 or an old comparable model. This machine was made for sewing in sweats, and not sure what else it could be used for. But, it's the one that all hatters have, or want to own.

Old JW of JW Hats would know for sure. He even makes hatting equipment, although not sure about sewing machines. Those would be hard to make, I think. He also sells hatting equipment, or has in the past. The old machines that are no longer made. And probably has invented a couple as well. But, he is pricey!! When I went looking for a rounding jack, he had a selfmade one, at 750 bucks!! Yikes! I lucked up and found a vintage one on accident, for 20 bucks. I still use it today. Can't wear it out.

And John, yeah, I have seen those thread lines on the sweats you are talking about. If one stitch comes loose, it can unravel, if pulled. You see a piece of thread sticking out underneath the bottom of the ribbon, and you pull it to get rid of it, to find you just unraveled one side of the retaining stitches that hold in the sweat!! Do, all of these machines do this sort of stitch? I dunno. Just don't know much about the various models. I just know about the 107, and not that much about it. But I was told that you could adjust the stitch pattern, so as to use fewer stitches....

All of us hand hatters use a back stitch, or locking stitch. so if one breaks, no unraveling. And we all use nylon braided thread, unlike what you see on most vintage hats. Nylon will not rot as easily from sweat. And, if you ever find yourself in a survival situation, you could remove the nylon thread from the sweat, bout 3 feet of it, and use it for fishing line!! We use one long piece when we lock stitch. And it is really strong stuff to boot. For small fish.

Fedora

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:03 am

John, I guess it's just a confidence in knowing what can be done on "my" machines from experience with sewing, and watching a tailor sew a wide array of things on them for many years. These machines are very flexible and there a way to sew almost anything on them - some things that you wouldn't think would be possible. I'm not sure why you find it so hard to believe it's possible. Ultimately, it's just two pieces of material that are to be sewn together. As long as you can get those two pieces of material under the needle (that's the biggest challenge, due to a hat's shape), which I know I can, and hold them together through the process (which the presser foot can do - it clamps down on the two pieces under the needle to hold them together so they don't slip apart while being sewn), you can do it on this machine, be it silk, blue jean, or thick leather.

I was thinking, you also could pin the reed tape in place every so often around the hat prior to sewing, to help hold it in place before it gets pulled under the presser foot and needle by the "feed dogs" (part of the plate under the needle that moves back and forth and "feeds" the material to be sewn under the needle). I've done this myself on things. I don't think that would hurt the felt any, provided it was a fine enough needle. And it wouldn't be there long. Then, you could lock the presser foot down, and just concentrate on keeping the reed tape lined up as the machine pulls the material through. And with those needles pinning the sweat in place in a few key spots, I think it would be pretty easy to keep the reed tape where it belongs while you were sewing. Then, once the sewing is done, out would come the needles. I'll be testing this out as soon as I can. I'm quite sure it will work. If somehow it doesn't however, I'll let everyone know on this thread. It might be more difficult than is worth the trouble. It's just too bad those vintage hat-sewing machines use a single-thread chain stitch. I first I couldn't figure it out, but I imagine their thinking was, since the hat will need to be reblocked a few times, better to have a stitch that will come out easily. Not that I agree with that - just trying to understand their thinking for using a stitch that is only used in situations where you actually want the stitch to come out easily, like the tops of potato bags.

Seriously - I read in some documentation on stitching that the chain stitch is used on potato bags (among other things) so people can pop them open by just ripping the first couple stitches.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:13 am

But here is the thing. Can it be done? Sure. But the argument is will it come out as if done by hand, which you have stated multiple times that it will. I have only ever reblocked hats, but I took them apart completely and sewed everything back on by hand. I sewed the sweat in well above the brim break and I have to tell you, there is no way a sewing machine can do that. You can't angle or bend a needle on a machine, to my knowledge. My grandmother was seamstress and I know she would not have been able to do what John and Steve do by hand, on a machine. The point is not "can it be done." Of course it can. Ghetto rig something here, and fiddle with something there and it sure can. The question is can it be done as well as by hand, which you have said it can on many occasions now, but "seam"

to have forgotten. Part of the reason why hand made hats are so desirable (in my opinion) is that the sweat is sewn in above the brim break, the weakest point on the hat. I've never had a hat rip on me but it has happened to multiple members here and not only John and Steve. But I can tell you that I really feared it and not because I was told it might happen, but because it looked like it might. It can be done, I believe you, but not as well as by hand. Lets not forget that is what the argument was.

Dave

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:32 am

It can be done, I believe you, but not as well as by hand. Lets not forget that is what the argument was.

I find it hard to believe that any machine could install em the way we do. Hard to believe, but not impossible of course.

And by that, I mean, angling the needle to replicate our methods, for the Indy fedora. The needle would have to be able to angle at around 45 degrees to replicate the way we do it, by hand. To my knowledge, this sort of sewing machine was never invented, because it was not needed.

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:51 am

The discussion on this thread has been (so far) could it be done, not whether it was better or not, although I did state on another thread that, since it was a lockstitch that these machines do, it is just as good as a hand-done lockstitch as far as holding the material together despite stress and even popping a thread or two. Again, I will state that I like hand-sewn hats, just because there's something special about things done by hand, even thought I know that technically speaking, a machine (like my mother's) can do just as good a stitch from a quality standpoint.

Steve, why is it that you have to angle the needle 45 degrees to put in that stitch? I guess I don't know exactly what stitch you use since I don't have an AB (wish I did

), but the lockstitch tailoring machines put in is a tough stitch and won't easily come out, and that doesn't require any angling. I guess there are several ways to achieve a similar effect, no? I don't doubt a machine would have trouble putting the needle through the same way you do, but I would also point out that the machine puts the lockstitch in in a way you can't do by hand, either!

It takes two threads and locks them together in the hole. Some interesting conversation here.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:04 am

The needle is angled for the reason I stated in my last post, to sew in above the brim break. At least, that is how I understand it. That is what a machine cannot do, at least to the degree that Steve, John, Marc, and I would assume David do.

Dave

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:38 am

I don't think that's the reason, Dave, as I have demonstrated with this graphic

that you can slide the hat under the needle on the machine right up to the brim break if you want. Actually, I'm NOT sure I could sew it in AT the brim break on a machine like that, since you would either have to flatten the brim break under the presser foot to sew it there, and it would be hard to keep the hat straight with it resting on on an angle at the brim break on the free arm/needle plate. It would want to flop one way or the other, you know? But above the brim break, the crown could lay flat on its side like you see here, and you would just stitch right along the edge of the crown above the brim break.

I was thinking it is just part of whatever stitch technique Steve uses that involved putting the needle through on an angle, but maybe I'm just confused. Some hand stitches require you to angle the needle, I do know that.

Ohio Jones · Post by **Ohio Jones** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:28 pm

If you are trying to drive something over or keep in in a desired location in construction (Home builder here..sorry) you drive a toenail. This angled nail will not only push a stud over...it will also hold it there, and hold it good. So I think the angled stitching pulls the seat down and seats it super tight right where the hatter wants it to go and stay.

Ohio Jones · Post by **Ohio Jones** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:38 pm

You still need also to get the sweat out of the way so you dont stitch through it. The odds of getting out of the way and maintaining the desired location on a modern machine would be like ice skating up hill. Since the the reedtape and the sweat are stitched together flat...when you go to pull the sweat out it creates a bind and the little reedtape follows right along with it...thus moving the entire unit out of place.

How the singer did this?..I dont know. I would also have to assume there would have been some adjustment on the stitching length...but even with that its a lot of holes to put around the brim break. Also with a modern machine...yeah you get it to work on one...but what about the next hat. You get it done and it is not seated right...then you have to do it again...more holes....AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:18 pm

Of course you have to pull the sweat outwards, Ohio!

Yeah, it would be real easy if you could just sew it all right down together.

As long as your customer doesn't mind a stitchline in their sweat...

There are things similar to that in tailoring, where you have something pulled out (that is normally tucked in) like perhaps a waistband on some heavy fabric pants, that creates some tension on the two pieces of material you are trying to sew together. That's why tailors use "basting stitches" (little hand-stitches that are put in at some key spots just to hold something in place while being machine-sewn) or pins or needles to tack things in place so they don't move while you're sewing them. It isn't nearly as bad as skating uphill, Ohio.

As I mentioned earlier, the "presser foot" on the machines I use can clamp down as hard as you need it to, to hold something together while it moves under the needle. As long as you are holding the reed tape/sweat in place as you feed it in (and it could have those pins in place to help as well), it will get sewn together in the right place.

I'm sure it would take some practice to get it right every time, but I'm sure Steve and the other guys had to practice doing it by hand many, many times before they got it right on a regular basis that way as well. I never claimed it would be easy as pie. Just a bit faster than hand-stitching, once you got the hang of it.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:46 pm

Steve, why is it that you have to angle the needle 45 degrees to put in that stitch

Because you sew through, where the tape of the sweat hits the leather. The needle has to angle up to hit the line you chalked on the crown, which pulls the sweatband up into the hat, instead of just letting it set flushed out on the bottom. This strain, creates part of what we know of the Raiders brim. i.e. its looks. You are not sewing the sweat straight into the side of the hat, you are pulling the sweat up, into the hat by using this angling of the needle.

When you hand sew in a sweatband,, you start on the inside of the sweat. The sweat has already been temporarily stitched in with a temporary stitch, that goes between the reed and the tape that holds the reed. This allows you to fold the sweat band out, to access the tape of the sweatband. Once you get in the permanent stitches, on the crown of the hat, you remove the temp. stitches that held the sweat in place, for doing the permanent stitches. Hard to explain this stuff with words. But I am almost positive a machine was never made for this type of installantion. You only see this sort on hats that have hand sewn sweats. You of course could not use this method, IF, you did not flange, (flare) out the reeded portion of the sweatband. The flare keeps the sweat from being pulled too deeply into the hat, and allows for the tension this method creates on the brim break. Fedora

jbbowers · Post by **jbbowers** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:28 pm

I use a stitch awl with a Singer sewing machine needle, which gives me the benefit of the two-thread lock stitch without a sewing machine. It also allows me to work from the outside of the hat so I sew a much straighter line than I could with a regular needle and thread. It speeds up my process, too, so I win all the way around.

The only photo I have of a vintage sewing machine is for the kind that was used prior to the '40s in soft hats without reed and tape. The sweatband is whip-stitched in.

Brad

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:35 pm

The 107 can space stitches up to ½ inch, so weakening the felt by having perforations too close together is not a problem. That’s only two stitches per inch – if you want!

Here’s the 107 installing a sweat:

Notice the hat is held at an oblique angle to the cylinder arm. Also notice how high above the brim break the needle and presser foot are.

The weakness of the 107 is that it only sews a single thread chain stitch. That’s fine for a nice dress hat – unless of course there’s a possibility of wearing it while being dragged behind a truck.

Brad that's a great idea with the awl. The result is identical to a machine lock stitch...and without electricity.

- Mac

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:43 pm

Actually, the 107 had an attachement to make the hat rest at that angle, making it even easier for the hatter.

Dave

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:18 pm

jbbowers, I was going to mention the stitch-awl, but you beat me to it.

I'm not sure how much faster that would be than the way Steve does it, but something to consider perhaps.

Dave, those pics were in the Singer 107 manual I posted. I was wondering if anyone looked at it. There's a lot of interesting stuff in that manual.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:52 pm

Can't wait to see your sewing machine sew in a sweatband jason.

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:57 pm

Don't worry, John, you will.

Either way it turns out, I'll post the results.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:23 pm

jasonalun wrote:Don't worry, John, you will. Either way it turns out, I'll post the results.

I would like to see it first hand to really judge it.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:25 pm

Of course, that is the only way to really tell. Photos only tell so much.

Dave

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:02 pm

Are you volunteering to send me a hat body and sweat?

The only hat I can possibly try it on would be an old hat of mine, which my son wears. I'm not going to send that anywhere. It's not like I have hat bodies and sweats lying around to test on. Close-up pics and maybe some video as well should be able to show anything you need to see. If you want to see more after I post those, maybe we can work something out. We'll see.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:32 am

Pics won't do. We can talk about sending the hat back and forth.

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:11 am

I'm posting pics as this is for everyone's interest, John. If you want something more afterward, we'll see. First I have to see when I can even get access to the machine I want. It ain't gonna be tomorrow, if you know what I mean.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:04 am

Great photos! You guys really dug into this. I love it! The photo of the 107 shows an angled needle, and if this could be adusted with a bit more angle it would do the method I have talked about, i.e. pulling the sweat into the hat "more". Looks like it already puts a certain angle on the stitch. Of course, on the pic posted above, the tape on the sweat would have to be much wider than what you see today on most sweats. Because where the needle is hitting the crown would totally miss most tapes today.(using the straw hat pic) So, you have to move the needle closer to the brim break to "catch" the tape with the stitch. My tapes and most I have seen are only around 1/4 an inch wide. But on alot of vintage hats I own, the tapes are wider. Also, the needle appears to be catching the tape farther up, instead of low down, where the tape meets the leather. If it catches it higher up, you would definetely need a many stitch pattern to keep a crack from showing between the reed and the felt. And from the hats I have seen with the machine stitch, the stitch is near the center of the tape, instead of at the bottom of the tape. I think they were designed this way, not sure.

Hey Brad, I like your awl deal there! Sure saves the finger tips!! Fedora

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:38 am

jasonalun wrote:I'm posting pics as this is for everyone's interest, John. If you want something more afterward, we'll see. First I have to see when I can even get access to the machine I want. It ain't gonna be tomorrow, if you know what I mean.

Well I would like to be the judge if you did a good job or not and I can't completly tell from a photo.