handmade, machine made and factory made hats

[jasonalun]

There's no disagreement that hand-stitching is wonderful, and if some hatmakers want to do that, they can have that extra claim to "hand-made"-ness that other's can't. I agree with jnicktem, believe it or not. My only point, which I stand by, is that hand-directed (key word) machine stitching can do just as good a job. I know John doesn't agree. So as Bink suggested, let's drop the whole hand-stitching vs machine stitching debate, shall we?

[Fedora]

like a hand sewn in sweatband. For many reasons. You never get a pull into the hat body like you do with a human hand. You can't angle the stitch with a sewing machine.

An example. I sent Lee K. a CS AB. You want to know the first question he asked me? How did I get the brim to do what the Raiders brim does, on the CS hat? He was talking about the way the crown and brim transition at the brim break point. His very fine eye picked up something going on with this part of the hat. That you don't see on factory hats, or hats that have a machine sewed in sweat. The answer is, it's the way we sew our sweats in. Like John says above in the quote. And by sewing them in like this, you impart a look to the hat that is very Raiders like, and this cannot be replicated without sewing them in the way we do. A machine, or the machine used to sew in sweats does this totally differently. And therein is the difference. If not for this very fact, I would buy the machine and do mine with it. Because at the end of the day, if really does not matter how you sew in a sweat, UNLESS, you are replicating a particular hat, which in this case would be a Raiders, or CS as both share that one oddity. And if you want that on an Indy hat, you better hand sew the sweat in. Here I am giving away my secrets!!! I have never ever told this here prior, and its one of my tricks that LLS and John both use today.

Regarding Art, a friend by the way. Art looks to be using the Optimo model, which is a very smart thing to do. Art has always been up front on how he makes his hats, even with the poucing machine that he was lucky enough to find and buy. I well recall a disagreement between he and one other infamous hatter whom will go unnamed. But the oldies here know who. It was about Art using the pouncer. Art had said he did not see the big deal, about it, as it was much faster than hand pouncing, and he was right! You certainly don't get an inferiour finish by using one of these things, and it is a time saver. All those vintage hats we own were pounced with one of these. And they do a great job. And you can change out grits to get a finer finish, so there is no big deal here. Hand pouncing is so slow!! But, it was the way small shops did it in the old days, and that is what I am, and John, and every other hatter here. We are the small neighborhood hat shop of yesteryear, where the hats that were made, were basically hand crafted, but used a felt body made by a machine. So, the hat was blocked and assembled by hand, using hand tools. A true handmade hat is what existed prior to felting machines being invented, where the hatter actually handmade the felt cone, in shop. After its invention, "handmade" changed in definition.

So what we have today, with some very smart hatters, is a move to mass production equipment in what used to be called the front shop. The old Stetson company had the traditional back shop, that made the felt bodies, and a front shop that took these raw bodies and turned them into hats. Some companies of that era,big brands, just had the front shop, and outsourced their raw bodies from others. The front shop was as mechanized as much as possilbe to mass produce the hats. And these were large operations. At the same time, you still had the small hat shops, that could not afford this equipement, and really did not need it, as the volume was low, compared to the big boys. And they carried on the tradition of making hats in this manner. The western market kept this craft alive, until folks like us arrived on the scene. Because, the western hat never went totally out of style, due to regional differences in hat wearing.

So to move back, we have hatters today that basically are doing what the old front shops used to do, with certain big name brands of hats. Optimo is the prime example, and is able to generate alot of hats in a years time. He is limited, only by the number of orders he gets. He is not limited by what he can actually make. I would bet he could make more than he sells, if needed. And, Art and Graham go way back, and I think Art probably used the Optimo model when he got into hatting full time. Which was a very astute and smart thing to do. I doubt Art has anyone to finish his blocked hats out for him though. He still does it all himself, so you get a hat made by one guy. And, for those who have seen Art's work, it is exemplar, and something to be proud of. Art probably thinksI am nuts for doing it the way I do it. And he would be right. My defense is its just my peculiar personality, to do it the way I do. I am attracted to the small shop model, although my volume in the past really prohibited my model. But won't do so in the future, now that I finally understand how this works.

One thing to remember is back when Stetson was Stetson, in their front shop they had mass production equipment to make a fast made hat, but in the front shop they also had a group of master hatters. For special hats. These master hatters made their hats by hand. Took their time. And these hats ended up on film stars of the era, who Stetson gave hats to, for advertisement, and also for special dignataries and folks of that nature. But, you don't see these on ebay much. These hand made hats.

I think I fit into this category, along with others here. We are like the old master hatters that worked for Stetson. Not that any of us are master hatters, whatever that means today. But we serve their purpose, and place in the world of hatmaking. But by doing so, we will never be in the income class of folks like Optimo. But I don't think any of use actually started making hats for the money anyways. I know I didn't. If money was the reason, I would certainly be doing the Optimo business model. And if lucky, I could be taking those trips to Ecuador to peruse the newest offering from the Montecristi weavers, and smoke Cubans while doing so. This is still a hobby for me, mentally. I have no dreams of it being anything else but that. But if I were 20 something again? That might be a totally different story, and I would have cashed in my investments and bought a full blown mass production shop and entered into the big money fray of hatting. Because, if you got the customers, and can deliver in a timely manner, there is alot of money to be made in hatting, especially when you fetch 4 to 5 hundred bucks for a factory made hat like some of these guys do. My two cents. Fedora

[BendingOak]

An example. I sent Lee K. a CS AB. You want to know the first question he asked me? How did I get the brim to do what the Raiders brim does, on the CS hat? He was talking about the way the crown and brim transition at the brim break point. His very fine eye picked up something going on with this part of the hat. That you don't see on factory hats, or hats that have a machine sewed in sweat. The answer is, it's the way we sew our sweats in. Like John says above in the quote. And by sewing them in like this, you impart a look to the hat that is very Raiders like, and this cannot be replicated without sewing them in the way we do. A machine, or the machine used to sew in sweats does this totally differently. And therein is the difference.

Jordan fades back to shoot................. Nothing but net................ He scores!

[Chewbacca Jones]

So, in other words, there are nuances that go beyond just the type of stitch? That makes sense to me.

[Fedora]

Ok, the other reason for hand sewing in a sweat involves the future of your hat. Refurbs, and or reblocks.

Most of the machine sewn sweats use a lot of stitches. Which creates a perfect perforated line around the top of the brim. After a couple of reblocks, and sewing the new sweat back in with the machine, you get a hat that is ready to be torn apart at the perforated line. It is just the nature of the beast. But it insures that this hat will not be an old friend, 20 years from now. Like Indy's supposedly was.

And that was the original reason why I went with handsewn sweats. I don't use as many stitches, and actually try to use the minimum amount to keep the sweat in place when I first make a hat. I know on down the line, I won't have a perforated line around the crown to contend with. In fact, it would more than likely take around 10 reblocks to get one. And, I think the felt will be stablilized before I ever reach that number, and the hat won't require reblocks at some point in time.

I worked on a hat this morning, early, a reblock of one of the first Indy Stetsons, sold by Stetson. I only took this on, because I was curious what this early hat looked like. And agreed to do it, just because I wanted to see this particular hat.

Now, it had a factory sewn in sweat, and although this hat has never been reblocked, when I went to sew the sweat back in, I had a series of large holes, where the factory stitch line was put. Over time and wear, of pulling the hat on and off, the stitch holes had grown expoentially in size, part of this attributed to the porous rabbit felt on this hat. So each time I pushed my needle through the felt, I hit a hole!! And, I don't know how this sweat is gonna fair in the future. It may fall out of the hat!! When the brim comes off on one of the tugs to pull the hat down low on the head. But I think I may have hit enough 'non holes" for it to last for awhile. But again, this is indicative of what machine stitching does to a hat. With that said, a beaver hat would not fair as badly, as beaver felt is so tough and dense.

I originally used hand stitches as I was trying to make a hat that would out last others. So, everything I did, had that as a goal. It was only later on that I noticed what our methods did to the brim, and saw that same feature on the Raiders fedora. And then it took some time for this to sink in, and Lee pounded this fact home with his comment to me. He could not get this look from his hats, factory made. By doing what we do, we pull the sweat up into the hat, which creates a Raiders distortion. We never see the stiches on the Raiders fedora do we? That is because Swales put the stitch line higher up, the way we do, and by doing so, he pulled the sweat up into the felt. On the other two film hats, we see the stitches at the brim break, i.e. a modern HJ factory method. Then this year, we found out D.N. had this Raiders fedora bespoke, instead of factory made. And it finally all came together for me, in my understanding of this one hat. I had already been doing this for years, this method.

Now, to get a perfect 90 degree, and very crisp brim break, is aided by machine sewing in the sweatbands. If you do it the way we do it, you get a more relaxed brim break, and if the hat were a very soft rabbit, this with some wear, would easily morph into the Raiders brim, without extra work. It just happens. And if I were specializing in a non Indy fedora, I would install my sweats differently. I would drop the stitches down lower, just above the brim break, and not pull the sweat up into the hat to the same degree. But better, I would use a sewing machine to install them, as this gives you that type of brim break automatically. Remember, I started out making Raider fedoras, and everything I did was in regards to replicating that one hat. I was not trying to make a fine vintage like hat, like Art and Optimo does, and they do it very, very well. But I was trying to make hats like the small shops of yesteryear made them. Except for the way I install sweats. I had plenty of time to experiment with this, prior to offering my hats to others. I tried all sorts of stitch placements, but at the back of my mind was the fact we don't see the stitches on the Raiders fedora, so I knew they were higher up than TLC fedora. And as I said, it was only later on that I really noticed the difference this method does to the brim, ala the Raiders brim pecularness.

Now, I own some old vintage hats that came with hand sewn in sweats. And on these, upon examination, they are placed exactly where I place mine. So, Swales did nothing new, when he placed them there. It was the traditional place to put those stitches on a hand sewn sweat, apparently. And, you see few vintage hats that have the stitches at the brim break, or just a hair above it. At least that has been my experience. I would guess the reason was, they did not want to put a perforated line at the weak spot that the brim break produces. They were thoughtful. Fedora

[jasonalun]

Jordan fades back to shoot................. Nothing but net................ He scores!

That doesn't disprove anything I said, John. I simply said that you can sew just as good a quality stitch with a (hand-guided) machine as you can do by hand. I said nothing about duplicating the Raiders look, or that machine-stitching was "better" or any such thing. If Steve does it because it imparts a better Raiders look, that's great - by all means keep doing it. I never suggested he or you or any of the other hand-sewing hatters should stop doing it that way. I don't know why you persist in taking it that way.

I did say that it was possible to sew in the sweat by machine above the brim break, though I don't know if any hatters are doing that. I only own custom-made hand-stitched hats or factory-made factory-machine-stitched ones, no personal-machine stitched ones like Art's or Optimo's. Please keep in mind I am saying nothing about hat-factory-machine stitching. I know nothing about those and don't claim to. I am speaking about sewing machines that tailors like my mother use, that you sit down at and have a foot pedal that you control, and that you thread by hand. Maybe Art or Optimo don't use those, but a factory-hat-sewing machine - that's possible. I am making a bit of an assumption that they are using a traditional hand-controlled sewing machine. But my points about these machines and the stitches they are capable of making are still valid.

That's a good point about the large holes, Steve, and if Art or Optimo are using hand-controlled sewing machines, they have the option of using very fine needles, and setting the stitch spacing far apart, to avoid the perforation problem you describe. Of course, doing it your way is good too.

[Mulceber]

Agreed - it seems like Steve's post actually contradicted a lot of the things that the advocates of purely-hand-made hats have been saying:

He points out that machine pouncing achieves just as good a finish as hand-pouncing, whereas a lot of the people in this thread have been turning their noses up at the thought of using a machine for that.

Then he went on to say that it doesn't matter how you sew in a sweat, unless you're trying to do something special like an Indy hat. Later on he does point out that this can lead to perforation, but from what you've been saying Jason, it sounds like that's a problem that could be dodged. This only leaves what John said about how if you cut one stitch on a machine-sewn hat, the entire sweat will come out. This is true, I suppose (I wouldn't know), but honestly, how much wear and tear are you expecting the stitching on the sweat band to go through? Unless your hat soaks through completely, it's never exposed to the elements (and if your hat DOES soak through, you should probably send it in to be reblocked anyway). I really don't see how the cut thread argument matters. -M

[BendingOak]

If it really doesn't matter than I'm buying a couple of sewing machines and cranking out hats. It will save me hours and my back a lot of pain. I will still charge the same for my hats.



be seeing you.

[BendingOak]

If it really doesn't matter than I'm buying a couple of sewing machines and cranking out hats. It will save me hours and my back a lot of pain. I will still charge the same for my hats.


Besides all these statements. The point of the thread is to clear up definitions. Not to debate what type is better. I still don't see how you can call something hand made using a sewing machine. That would mean that every hat ever made was made by hand.



be seeing you.

[Mulceber]

If it really doesn't matter than I'm buying a couple of sewing machines and cranking out hats. It will save me hours and my back a lot of pain. I will still charge the same for my hats.


Besides all these statements. The point of the thread is to clear up definitions. Not to debate what type is better. I still don't see how you can call something hand made using a sewing machine. That would mean that every hat ever made was made by hand.



be seeing you.

Regardless of whether or not this thread was made to debate which type is better, that's what it's turned into. And to be honest, I could have predicted that it would turn into that. Categorization almost always leads to comparison, and comparison almost always leads to an appraisal of worth.

A sewing machine is a tool. So is a needle and thread. Both tools are controlled directly by humans who operate them to create a piece of clothing. This is far different from factory machines where the person is pulling a lever/pushing a button or just sitting back and making sure the machine doesn't get jammed. That is why people say sewing machines still count as doing it by hand: because they still require a great deal of skill to use and the degree of skill that the human applies to them DOES determine the quality of the product which will come out. And as I said before, sewing machines and needle/thread are both tools. They both require great amounts of skill. If it weren't for the fact that it's impossible to sew without at least a needle and thread, I wouldn't be surprised to hear people on this forum bragging about their COMPLETELY hand-made hats; hats that don't cut corners by using needle and thread. -M

[BendingOak]

Then no will mind me using a sewing machine like a factory hat and still charge my prices.

[jnicktem]

Then no will mind me using a sewing machine like a factory hat and still charge my prices.

Honestly, I mind. But at your prices I think you could and it would be understandable. You provide us with the greatest deal in the world of hats, making your hats COMPLETELY by hand, using the fine materials that you do, and charging your VERY reasonable prices!

The big reason why I come to you to order my hats is because with you I know that I am getting a completely hand made hat and it is being made by someone who really enjoys what they're doing and doesn't care if they are making the big bucks just as long as they are creating something that they like and makes them happy. You're a rare breed John, a rare but wonderful breed. That is why I come to you and that is why I will continue to come to you in the future.

[Mulceber]

Then no will mind me using a sewing machine like a factory hat and still charge my prices.

I wouldn't mind. I think hand-sewn sweats are a nice feature and add a little to the durability of a hat which is made to be abused, but if it would decrease the burden on you and decrease turn-around times, then sure, I'd be completely fine with you using a sewing machine. -M

[DR Ulloa]

Then no will mind me using a sewing machine like a factory hat and still charge my prices.

####! Sorry, but I would mind. It may not matter to others but it does to me. I don't think anyone here has said that using tools like sewing machines and pouncing machines makes a hat inferior. You could make a wool felt hat by hand and it will still taper. All I have said is that to me, a hat made without using a machine to aid is important. It doesn't have to be to everyone. Why is it that everyone always gets pissy about the "exclusive hadn made beaver guys" and say that we think everyone must wear an AB or something, but we can't be left be to wear what we want? I'm sorry but this, up until now, was not a debate on which is better. It was only to describe what is hand made and what isn't. I thought we had been doing fine. I even think that Rick did one better by saying that some hats, like Art's, are hand crafted.

Sorry, Jason, but I'll take the word of guys who make hats over yours. I have heard from Both Steve and John on many seperate occasions over telephone that you cannot accomplish what is done by hand with a sewing mahcine. I'll take their word over someone who has not made a hat. You have worked with clothing and that is great, but its not a hat. Some of us like that fact that everything is done without the aid of machines, why can't we be left be. But just because some don't care doesn't mean that other hats can be categorized in the same way. Sorry, but I don't think that is right.

Dave

[BendingOak]

Alright. I see this is starting to really get out of hand. Admin. If you don't mind I would rather have this locked down.


I will say this. I will always make my custom made hats by hand ( my definition). If I went ahead and started to make them using pouncing machines and sewing machines. I would wreak the hat biz because I would only charge the true labor of a hat made that way. Everyone better look out.

[jasonalun]

A sewing machine is a tool. So is a needle and thread. Both tools are controlled directly by humans who operate them to create a piece of clothing. This is far different from factory machines where the person is pulling a lever/pushing a button or just sitting back and making sure the machine doesn't get jammed. That is why people say sewing machines still count as doing it by hand: because they still require a great deal of skill to use and the degree of skill that the human applies to them DOES determine the quality of the product which will come out. And as I said before, sewing machines and needle/thread are both tools. They both require great amounts of skill. If it weren't for the fact that it's impossible to sew without at least a needle and thread, I wouldn't be surprised to hear people on this forum bragging about their COMPLETELY hand-made hats; hats that don't cut corners by using needle and thread. -M

Mulceber - this is exactly my point.

John, you don't have to throw away your needles and thread and buy a machine - there's still a special value in what you do by hand. I happen to like the fact that my hats (my custom ones) are sewn by hand, there's just something special about it, even though I feel that technically, when you get right down to brass tacks, sewing the sweat in by sewing machine will do just as good a job. I just think there should be given due respect to those who do it my hand-controlled sewing machine as well. And yes, I would still buy your hats even if you went to a sewing machine for your sweats, even for the same price. You would save yourself time and be able to shorten your lead times and make more money, and not sacrifice any quality in your hats. What's not to like about that?

Dave, I know what I'm talking about with sewing machines. I do not need to have made a hat to say that my sewing machine can make a stitch that will hold up just as well as the hand stitches (on the sweat) I see on my custom hats. My machine can sew felt as well as leather - materials used make little difference to the machine.

[Fedora]

Ok, back to the sweatband issue, and our method of installation. The Raiders fedora morphed into that relaxed brim break as the filming progressed. This doesn't always happen with a well made hat, largely because of the manner in which the sweatband was sewn in. From a hatters viewpoint, if you were making regular hats, you would want to keep that 90 degree brim break alive, and this generally defines a well made hat! The felt also enters into the equation. So, put a soft felt along with our sweatband installation and instead of getting a good 90 degree brim break you end up with this.



Pulling the sweat up into the hat, causes this to happen, and this is part and parcel of what we think is the Raiders fedora. Now, I have not flanged this brim yet. Once I do that, the droop you see will flatten out, and just waiting for the wear and element exposure to null and void the flange job, and morphing into what you see in the Raiders film. Because the brim is wanting to morp, but has been temporarily straightened out.

But remember, this is NOT how a hatter would generally install the sweat! Our techniques were created for a closer replication than the other brands. We are Indy hatters for heaven's sake. Yet, I get compared with a regular hat, and the things I do in order to replicate the Indy fedora is seen by some to be inferiour hatmaking.

Thus is the life of an Indy hatmaker. That's ok, just as long as I get to tell of the methods to my madness. If I keep giving my secrets away............ Fedora

[jasonalun]

Steve, so even if you don't put in a lot of stitches at the brim break, that will keep it sharper? Just curious if it requires the many stitches that factories tend to put in to do that, or if you put in wider-spaced and hence fewer stitches in, would you still get that effect. I would prefer my hats have less stitches, as I know the more stitches put in at the brim break will weaken the felt for re-blocks.

[Fedora]

Oh, let's keep this thread going. Just edit your posts to clean it up like I did. This is great hat stuff here, especially for guys that will in the future get into this hatmaking madness.

I mean, I done and went and gave one of my secrets away in regards to sweatband installation!!! For Indy fedoras that is.

Agreed - it seems like Steve's post actually contradicted a lot of the things that the advocates of purely-hand-made hats have been saying:

He points out that machine pouncing achieves just as good a finish as hand-pouncing, whereas a lot of the people in this thread have been turning their noses up at the thought of using a machine for that.

Then he went on to say that it doesn't matter how you sew in a sweat, unless you're trying to do something special like an Indy hat. Later on he does point out that this can lead to perforation, but from what you've been saying Jason, it sounds like that's a problem that could be dodged. This only leaves what John said about how if you cut one stitch on a machine-sewn hat, the entire sweat will come out. This is true, I suppose (I wouldn't know), but honestly, how much wear and tear are you expecting the stitching on the sweat band to go through? Unless your hat soaks through completely, it's never exposed to the elements (and if your hat DOES soak through, you should probably send it in to be reblocked anyway). I really don't see how the cut thread argument matters. -M

He points out that machine pouncing achieves just as good a finish as hand-pouncing, whereas a lot of the people in this thread have been turning their noses up at the thought of using a machine for that.

The thing is, generally, a machine pounced hat won't get pounced as finely, IF, you are trying to make a really fine hat, all around. You would pounce it on the machine, then the final pounce would be done by hand, to get that really great, fine finish, for a smooth felt. And the guys that use those machines would generally do this, or so I have been told. Hand pouncing from the get go, does give the hatter more control, and certain areas that need more pounce work can be addressed if doing it by hand. The machine just runs up and down the crown, giving all areas the same amount of abrasion. If I owned a machine like this, I would use it for the 320 grit pounce, and then do the finer grits by hand, because once you get an even finish with the 320, the other pouncing is done pretty quickly. You are not removing very much felt at this stage. At the end of the day, a combo of machine poucing coupled with the final hand pouncing would deliver just as good a finish as a completely hand pounced hat. IMO.

Most factory hats that we see, are pounced with one grit in the finishing stage, instead of various grits. I can take a factory HJ, that has the single pouce job, and drop down in grits and it will yield an exceptional finish, compared to what it was when I recieved it.
Art and Optimo more than likely do a bit of extra hand pouncing to get a better finish. I have not owned an Art hat, but I have owned 3 Optimos, and they set the standard for me on pounce jobs. I had never seen a hat pounced that finely, prior to this. I was quite taken with it. And that was when I found out, that you can finish any hat out with a fine finish if you take the time to do it.

The key to pouncing is to leave some nap, especially on a beaver hat. Beaver just has that special expensive feel to it, and you want to be able to feel this. But on some runs of beaver felt, that I get in, you can literally take off all of the nap if you sand with really fine grits. The hat appears from a short distance to be leather. I am wearing a 5 year old AB today that looks just like leather. I will change that when it needs a reblock, and pouce it with some 320 to get some nap back. Apparently I pounced it with some 2000 grit the last time I reblocked it, a couple years ago and took off all of the nap. Fedora

[Fedora]

Steve, so even if you don't put in a lot of stitches at the brim break, that will keep it sharper? Just curious if it requires the many stitches that factories tend to put in to do that, or if you put in wider-spaced and hence fewer stitches in, would you still get that effect. I would prefer my hats have less stitches, as I know the more stitches put in at the brim break will weaken the felt for re-blocks.

I think I understand. To keep the brim break sharp, as would be desirable for a regular fedora, you just don't want to pull the sweatband up into the hat as much as we do. So, if you were handsewing, you would move up from the brim break 1/8 and inch, and sew in the sweat. Just high enough so the ribbon covers it. And you just need enough stitches(if you use braided nylon thread) to keep the sweat from moving. I have seen vintage hats with back stitches that were 3/8 an inch long. That's pretty spaced out there, and would be the longest I would ever want to use.

I like to use enough stitches to hold the sweat securely in the hat, but not an excess like you see on the HJs. I only use that brand as an example because I work with them. I am told that you can even adjust the sewing machine designed for sewing in sweats, to make fewer stitches, yet most use the shorter, more numerous stitch pattern. But not sure about the adjustment, as I don't own one. Hope I answered you, in my ramblings. Fedora

[RCSignals]

This has turned into a great thread. I hope it isn't closed

[jasonalun]

I think I understand. To keep the brim break sharp, as would be desirable for a regular fedora, you just don't want to pull the sweatband up into the hat as much as we do. So, if you were handsewing, you would move up from the brim break 1/8 and inch, and sew in the sweat. Just high enough so the ribbon covers it. And you just need enough stitches(if you use braided nylon thread) to keep the sweat from moving. I have seen vintage hats with back stitches that were 3/8 an inch long. That's pretty spaced out there, and would be the longest I would ever want to use.

I like to use enough stitches to hold the sweat securely in the hat, but not an excess like you see on the HJs. I only use that brand as an example because I work with them. I am told that you can even adjust the sewing machine designed for sewing in sweats, to make fewer stitches, yet most use the shorter, more numerous stitch pattern. But not sure about the adjustment, as I don't own one. Hope I answered you, in my ramblings. Fedora

Thanks, Steve! You answered my question completely! Thanks for sharing your knowledge on that with me. I don't mean to get anyone riled up, but I guess it was inevitable, given the subject. I just think hand-controlled sewing machines don't get the respect they deserve. It takes a lot of skill and knowledge to run those things - I know! I can't tell you how many seemingly simple things I've screwed up, and even my mother, who is a 40-year professional, on occasion messes a seam up, because she held the material too tightly, or ran the needle too fast, or didn't have the bobbin set right. When you get it right, especially on something complicated, it makes you proud!

[Indyzane]

'Hand made' should be defined by manufacturers to put it in the context they mean.

It still comes down to definition

I'm not sure how you differentiate.

something like - 100% made by hand ?
- made and sewn by hand ?

If you say 'custom hand made' I think you are back in the same position. Someone now using 'hand made' when they are using a sewing machine will use that too for the same reasons.

Exactly! I agree!

[binkmeisterRick]

Alright. I see this is starting to really get out of hand. Admin. If you don't mind I would rather have this locked down.

Since you started this thread, John, this thread can be shut down at your request if that's what you truly want.

I will say that this topic has gone all over the map considering what the original topic was. Various points on all sides have been expressed and taken in and out of context to the point of beating dead horses so much that the hide is no longer suitable for even making a jacket.

I have gleaned this much from this thread:

1. The definition of what is truly "hand made" is as varied as the individual trying to define such a term.

2. Trying to agree on one all-inclusive definition for "hand made" is like trying to catch water in a net.

3. The stitch that is done by hand can apparently be recreated on a specialized sewing machine and that machine can be adjusted to provide stitches in varying lengths, regardless of whether it is used for hat making or otherwise.

4. No one is flat out saying a sewing machine should or should not be used for sewing in sweats, rather that it can do the job.

5. People on all sides seem to be taking this argument personally and keep perpetuating it.

6. This thread has gone off topic multiple times.

So, what's the call? Time to bring the curtain down on this one or are we all going to find a way to calm down a little and try to get back to the original topic?

[binkmeisterRick]

I'll leave the thread up for folks to read, but I'm closing this thread as per request of the author.