handmade, machine made and factory made hats

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:28 pm

I break down hats into 3 groups.

1) handmade
2) machine made
3) factory

Now this doesn't mean there can't be a combination of any of these 3 groups.

1) handmade, is a hat that is made purely by hand. you block the hat by hand, pounce the hat by hand and sew the parts by hand.
2) machine made, is a hat where use of electricity is used in the making the hat. Thought I would make that one easy.
3) factory, is hat made using multiple people in a assembly line fashion . Using either by hand or by machine or both. Mostly by machine.

Now there are hatters that use both by hand and machine. There are some hatters that use all 3 together. The main reason is speed but I feel you give up something when you do that. I personally don't want to go that route ever. I much rather have different offerings.

John

Canasta · Post by **Canasta** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:31 pm

That's a great clarification. Thanks.
C

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:40 pm

I agree with your 3 groupings.
They are more traditional definitions, at least as far as I'm concerned. They can be applied to anything really, not just hats.

These days, as I tried to point out in the other post, people blur the first two some.

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:42 pm

Good break down John! Honestly, I don't like it when some hatters claim that their hats are handmade when they in fact use a sewing machine or to put in the sweatbands or use a pouncing machine.

Long John Tinfoil · Post by **Long John Tinfoil** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:26 am

I think I've mentioned this before, but for me what is really at the core of this is described by David Pye in The Nature and Art of Workmanship.

This work defines what is valuable in terms of workmanship on two levels: the workmanship of risk, meaning a quality of work dependent on the judgment, dexterity and care with which one works, and the workmanship of certainty, which involves results determined before a thing is made, such as in automated production.

Pye writes that "In free workmanship, the flat surface is not quite flat, but shows a faint pattern of tool marks. The effect of such approximations is to contribute very much to the aesthetic quality in workmanship which I shall call diversity." This is what makes "Handmade" such a slippery concept.

"Questions of good or bad workmanship do not turn on 'truth to material' or on honesty or deception," Pye says. "Bad workmanship is a matter of making mistakes through hurry, carelessness or ineptitude, which thwart the design…"

If the issue is "truth in advertising", though, I guess none of that is really applicable.

LJ

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:13 am

well oak, you clarification is very useful but can be misleading too. and not that this is your fault! bu just think about the Dorfman Pacific: the sweatband states "handmade", while we all know that DPs are factory made hats.

the key is all here

Now this doesn't mean there can't be a combination of any of these 3 groups.

so maybe the DP is 90% factory made, 9% machine made and 1% handmade...but they can still state that their hat is "handmade" without technically lying

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:10 am

BendingOak wrote: 2) machine made, is a hat where use of electricity is used in the making the hat. Thought I would make that one easy.

Well, I assume you work under light bulbs, and light bulbs use electricity... so by that logic your hats are machine made, right, John?

A technicality, but if one were to use an old treadle sewing machine, there is no electricity involved. Does that still fall into "machine made?" Based on the principle of combining these groups, I would add a fourth category:

Hand crafted: A hat made by a single hatter (or perhaps two) which is blocked by hand and likely pounced by hand, but the sweatband may be sewn in using a sewing machine. The ribbon work is still done by hand, but regardless of the tools used and the time it takes to create the hat, there is great attention to detail and quality.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:18 am

Restless Dreamer wrote:well oak, you clarification is very useful but can be misleading too. and not that this is your fault! bu just think about the Dorfman Pacific: the sweatband states "handmade", while we all know that DPs are factory made hats.

the key is all here

Now this doesn't mean there can't be a combination of any of these 3 groups.
so maybe the DP is 90% factory made, 9% machine made and 1% handmade...but they can still state that their hat is "handmade" without technically lying

I'm sorry but that sounds like you are selling me a used car.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:23 am

Pretty good breakdown John.

I might add, that if you want to make tons of money in hatting, DON"T do it the way we do it, me, LLS, Marc, and John. Did I leave anyone out?

The business model to use would be Optimo. A small shop, yet with factory mass production equipment. I reckon he has it all. Ironing machines, pouncing machines, blocking machines, various hatter sewing maching, yet, has his girls do the greatest ribbon and bow work, i.e. hidden stitches on the ribbon and bows. Course, you did not see this on any vintage hats I own, or have owned, so it sets him apart. And many comparisons that involve his hats, always bring up this hidden stitch deal with his ribbon work. But, that's not a vintage deal there. It's his own gimmick, or what sets him apart from most hatters.

But with his setup, you are in fact a small hat factory, that makes really fine looking hats, generally speaking. His prices don't reflect the factory made nature of his hats though. Otherwise, he would be getting 200 to 250 for what he makes. So, if you want to get rich, this is the way to do it, because volume is where the money is at, and always has been. He is one smart dude, and kudos to him for being so. That is how he can take trips to Ecuador and Europe on his hat missions.

I have nothing against this at all, so don't take me as being a sour grapes guy. And I would suggest that if anyone wants to really turn hatting into a living, this is the way to do it. You won't make alot of money doing it the way we do it. Too labor intensive, even with our prices. Because at the end of the day, you never get to keep all of your profits!! Uncle Sam demands his cut, and at the end of the day, your return isn't what some might think it is. Heck, with my old prices, I worked for less than minimum wage!! At least now, I may make a bit over minimum wage. So, unless you really love making hats just for making hats, don't do it the way we do it. You could make more money digging ditches.

Do the Optimo model, or don't do it at all.

There is a reason you see very few hatters that hand craft their hats. And another reason, not many will get into it. We are anomalies in the hat world today. Other hatters would just call us stupid. I could have never did this for a living, and that is why it was a hobby for so long. The way we make hats is stupid, because if you get any demand, you then get lead times that get to be too long. And that prevents future sales. Who wants to wait a couple years for a hat?!! Now granted, if it is a special hat, like a real deal film hat, you do get some leeway from your customers, but only from "some". My advice is to NOT get into handmade hats, if you want to retain any sanity. There are other ways to produce hats, or have them produced.

A bit off topic, but also an extension of the business models John gave us. Fedora

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:32 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:
BendingOak wrote: 2) machine made, is a hat where use of electricity is used in the making the hat. Thought I would make that one easy.
Well, I assume you work under light bulbs, and light bulbs use electricity... so by that logic your hats are machine made, right, John?

A technicality, but if one were to use an old treadle sewing machine, there is no electricity involved. Does that still fall into "machine made?" Based on the principle of combining these groups, I would add a fourth category:

Hand crafted: A hat made by a single hatter (or perhaps two) which is blocked by hand and likely pounced by hand, but the sweatband may be sewn in using a sewing machine. The ribbon work is still done by hand, but regardless of the tools used and the time it takes to create the hat, there is great attention to detail and quality.

Leave it to you to be a smart mouth.

Thats why I started this thread. There is a fine line that some walk when trying to sale their hats.

I like a hand sewn in sweatband. For many reasons. You never get a pull into the hat body like you do with a human hand. You can't angle the stitch with a sewing machine. Hand sewn I can use a locking back stitch at 3/4 to a 1 inch wide. Make for the felt to be re-blocked many times. you have to cut almost each stitch to to remove the sweatband. Machine sewn in sweats leaves many wholes and they go around twice around near the brim break. One cut and I can pull the sweatband with one yank. I'll make a youtube video showing what I mean.

I'm not saying good work can't be done with a sewing machine. The Henry Adventurebilt factory/machine made is the highest example in my opinion. It's just I don't see that example in others. Even the Henry is 2nd to a handmade made hat.

In my opinion. machine made or factory made hat or any combination of the 3 I stated above doesn't come close to a handmade hat using my definition.

There are hatters out their that used to make their hats by hand and then changed. I know of one who did this and change the way he advertised his hats. That I have a respect for because he was not misleading anyone.

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:48 am

I like the thought behind your addition, Bink. It's an important distinction. But I would say that things that fit that category are still "hand-made." There is little semantic difference between the terms "crafted" and "made," other than that "crafted" is more specific than "made," carrying more of the idea of a craftsman "making" something with great care and artistic intention.

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary-
made: to bring into being by forming, shaping, or altering material
craft: : to make or produce with care, skill, or ingenuity

I'm not sure what machines you've used John, but the ones I've used are perfectly capable of sewing in a sweat above the brim break.

You don't have to angle the needle - there are attachments or changes you can make to the machine to allow something like a hat to be placed in so the needle can reach the area that needs to be sewn. My mother is a tailor and I did some tailoring at one point in my life so I have some knowledge and experience with sewing machines. I guess I tend to defend this because I know how much skill and experience it takes to really sew well with a machine. And it goes back even before electricity. I have a foot-pedal operated sewing machine in my basement from the early twentieth century. Like Bink noted - what would that be called, I wonder?

I would also add that machines sew a lock-stitch as well. There isn't any stitch I'm aware of that can't be done by a machine, and many that can be done by a machine that can't really be done by hand.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:08 pm

John, I agree with you as to the reasons to favor a hand sewn sweat over a machine stitched one. What would you characterize Art's hats as these days, though? (Is that who you are referring to?) I know he started out doing everything completely by hand, but my understanding is that he now uses a sewing machine for the sweats. Still, every hat I've seen of his have been top notch hats and not what I would easily define as machine made. That's why I suggested "hand crafted"; an attempt to delineate things a bit more.

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:13 pm

BendingOak wrote:
Restless Dreamer wrote:well oak, you clarification is very useful but can be misleading too. and not that this is your fault! bu just think about the Dorfman Pacific: the sweatband states "handmade", while we all know that DPs are factory made hats.

the key is all here

Now this doesn't mean there can't be a combination of any of these 3 groups.
so maybe the DP is 90% factory made, 9% machine made and 1% handmade...but they can still state that their hat is "handmade" without technically lying
I'm sorry but that sounds like you are selling me a used car.

Erhm, could you explain yourself better? I don't get the metaphor, sorry

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:24 pm

RD, he's just saying you (or the person making that item) are trying to put one past him (trick him). Used car salesmen have a reputation here in the U.S. for being dishonest or tricky.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:47 pm

As I posted in the thread that kicked this one off

At one time 'hand made' anything meant something made by a person or persons using human powered hand tools.
These days with 'smart' machines that don't require much human control/interference, 'hand made' has come to include involvement of machines that require a person to control and operate them directly, whether it is a power 'hand' tool or sewing machine.

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:59 pm

RCSignals wrote:As I posted in the thread that kicked this one off

At one time 'hand made' anything meant something made by a person or persons using human powered hand tools.
These days with 'smart' machines that don't require much human control/interference, 'hand made' has come to include involvement of machines that require a person to control and operate them directly, whether it is a power 'hand' tool or sewing machine.

This. I don't think everything that involves human-controlled machines should be in this category, but I think things like dremel-assisted wood carvings, and human-operated-sewing-machine-created stitching in custom-made clothes and accessories fall into that category legitimately. If something takes great skill and craftsmanship to do, even if it involves a motor somewhere in the tool, that doesn't automatically take it out of the realm of handmade. The tool doesn't build the item by itself, and won't even be able to do a good job without a skilled craftsman behind it.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:31 pm

Thats the point I was making.
The definition of 'hand made' has changed with technology.

In modern manufacturing many things can be made with practically no human touching the item until a machine has finished making it.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:32 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:John, I agree with you as to the reasons to favor a hand sewn sweat over a machine stitched one. What would you characterize Art's hats as these days, though? (Is that who you are referring to?) I know he started out doing everything completely by hand, but my understanding is that he now uses a sewing machine for the sweats. Still, every hat I've seen of his have been top notch hats and not what I would easily define as machine made. That's why I suggested "hand crafted"; an attempt to delineate things a bit more.

I think that is who he is referring to as well. Art now uses a machine to sew his sweats and to pounce. In my opinion, that is no longer a hand made hat. A good one? Yes, but not hand made. I'd slate it as a Custom Hat. It is custom made to the wearer's specs, but not made entirely by hand.

Jason, I've never heard of a sewing machine doing that, but then again, I don't know much about sewing machines. My question would then be, if such things are possible with sewing machines, why has that never been done? I don't think I've ever seen a vintage factory hat that has its sweat sewn that way either.

A lot of skill is required to operate a sewing machine. This sin't to take away from those that know how to. Optimo's hats wouldn't sell if they were junk. They aren't. Those sewing the sweats know what they are doing, just as a good tailor knows what he or she is doing. I really don't know how to explain it, but to me, knowing that my hat was made completely by hand and not using any machines means a lot to me. It is like comparing Kobe beef to any other great quality steak. Those cows raised in Japan are hand fed. Things like that that may be stupid to other people are important to me. In my opinion, a distinction must be made between a hatter that uses machines and one that doesn't regardless of quality.

Dave

Ohio Jones · Post by **Ohio Jones** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:41 pm

Wowzzers,

True Craftsmen these days are hard to come by. How many handmade hatters are really out there producing there wares for us gear heads? Not many. These guys are something very special. They know there craft inside and out and are capable of a product that is unobtainable by factory hands. There products are not viewed by them as dollar signs...but more likely like there children. Then put a little bit of themselves into every blocking, bashing and stitch. They truly love what they do and want to give us all something beyond our expectations. The price we pay is well worth what you are getting.

I could see them not liking someone who is having hats made by a factory and then they bash it and call it a handmade hat. Even though hands may have worked on it...its really not the same. If you say to Jesse James....check out my custom fat boy that I just picked it up at the dealer...and he is sitting on his West Coast chopper built from the ground up by himself....he might have a few things to say about your factory bike........

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:43 pm

Jason,

I'm not knocking anyones skill with a sewing machine but there are things the human hand can only do, that a machine can't. I doubt I can explain it here. The reason I don't sew using a sewing machine is not because I don't have the skill. Wait for my youtube video.

Rick,

I won't call anyones name out. I have seen machine sewn in sweats by some very good hatters and they are just not the same.

Well, with all this talk. I will have to change the way I do things. I will now pounce, sew in my sweatband and even sew on ribbon using a machine. Claim all by hand and still charge the same.

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:46 pm

BendingOak wrote: Well, with all this talk. I will have to change the way I do things. I will now pounce, sew in my sweatband and even sew on ribbon using a machine. Claim all by hand and still charge the same.

How about if you start that AFTER you get done working on my hat?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:55 pm

BendingOak wrote:Jason,

I'm not knocking anyones skill with a sewing machine but there are things the human hand can only do, that a machine can't. I doubt I can explain it here. The reason I don't sew using a sewing machine is not because I don't have the skill. Wait for my youtube video.

I understand. It applies to many other things as well.
Jason though is talking about custom/tailored clothing, in which there will be both 'by hand' and 'machine by hand' work.

BendingOak wrote: Well, with all this talk. I will have to change the way I do things. I will now pounce, sew in my sweatband and even sew on ribbon using a machine. Claim all by hand and still charge the same.

No, you are doing just fine, but you bring up a valid point. The work you do is difficult to charge a price it is really worth in comparison.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:59 pm

Dave, that's another reason why I'm interested in a fourth category. There seem to be strong opinions about what does and does not constitute a hand made hat. Hands down a hat being sewn and pounced by hand puts it firmly in that camp, no question, but that alone doesn't denote quality. Otherwise, I have a hand made hat I did I'll gladly sell you.

That said, yes, I, too, would prefer a well hand-sewn sweat.

If I were going to a solo custom tailor to get a shirt made, I'd expect him or her to use a sewing machine. I'd still consider it hand made, though, since the individual is using a tool which requires direct interaction. Simply put, without that personal guidance, the garment would be a mess. I think the same thing can be applied to hats. If a hat is sent down a cookie cutter style production line, then most everything is done more or less by the push of a button. That's a machine made, factory hat, period. But when you have one or maybe a very few individuals using simple "electronic" tools in a very precise and controlled way, then it's hard for me to consider it machine made in the complete sense. It can still be a work of art (or work of Art, since we seem to be using him as an example

). I feel it could very well deserve some hand made accolades. Maybe the "by hand with machines" line has a little something going for it.

True Panama hats offer a good example. The bodies are woven my hand by true craftsmen, sold and passed along to others who finish the edges and such, given to folks who block the hats and then sew in sweats and ribbons, etc. A line of people are often involved in the making of one good Panama hat. If a piece of machinery is used during any point of this process, is it no longer a hand made hat? Does this rule not apply equally to straw hats as they do to felt ones? If this is the case, then we have a double standard to the argument. It makes a black and white argument near impossible.

The one thing I think we can all agree on is quality. Regardless of sewing machines or calloused fingers, what is ultimately most important is that we all want a quality hat on our heads. We want a hat that looks good and feels good. We want that hat to last a lifetime. And we all want to be happy with what we have, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:02 pm

I understand. It applies to many other things as well.
Jason though is talking about custom/tailored clothing, in which there will be both 'by hand' and 'machine by hand' work.

Look at the title of the thread. Key on the word HATS. Lets stay on target.

There is a good reason I sew my sweats by hand and it's not that I don't know how or don't have the skill.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:03 pm

BendingOak wrote: Well, with all this talk. I will have to change the way I do things. I will now pounce, sew in my sweatband and even sew on ribbon using a machine. Claim all by hand and still charge the same.

Guess its time to find another hatter to bother.

Rick, you hit the nail on the head. If it is well made, nothing can take that away. Hats that are partially made by hand should have some hand made praise, but it should stand apart from a pure hand made hat. What really bugs me is when a hat has "Hand Made" on the sweat even though it was given the Henry Ford treatment.

Dave

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:04 pm

I agree with you Rick, the most important thing is the quality and skill. but, You will never change my mind that a well sewn in machine sweatband is better than a well hand sewn in sweatband.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:05 pm

DR Ulloa wrote:
BendingOak wrote: Well, with all this talk. I will have to change the way I do things. I will now pounce, sew in my sweatband and even sew on ribbon using a machine. Claim all by hand and still charge the same.
Guess its time to find another hatter to bother.

Rick, you hit the nail on the head. If it is well made, nothing can take that away. Hats that are partially made by hand should have some hand made praise, but it should stand apart from a pure hand made hat. What really bugs me is when a hat has "Hand Made" on the sweat even though it was given the Henry Ford treatment.

Dave

Thank you David. Thats the point. If it's not hand made it shouldn't say it all over the hat.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:06 pm

Dave

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:14 pm

BendingOak wrote:
I understand. It applies to many other things as well.
Jason though is talking about custom/tailored clothing, in which there will be both 'by hand' and 'machine by hand' work.
Look at the title of the thread. Key on the word HATS. Lets stay on target.

There is a good reason I sew my sweats by hand and it's not that I don't know how or don't have the skill.

Yes it's hats. The process of 'hand made' applies to other things in the same way though as has been pointed out. It has been used as a point of illustration in the discussion.

As I said before, I personally prefer the traditional definition of 'hand made', as you make your hats.
Today it has been stretched, as pointed out by Jason using the clothing example. 'Hand made' should be defined by manufacturers to put it in the context they mean.
One hatters hand made is not the same as another's.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:17 pm

DR Ulloa wrote: Rick, you hit the nail on the head. If it is well made, nothing can take that away. Hats that are partially made by hand should have some hand made praise, but it should stand apart from a pure hand made hat. What really bugs me is when a hat has "Hand Made" on the sweat even though it was given the Henry Ford treatment.

John, I'm not saying that a sewing machine is better than a hand sewn one. We're on the same page there!

I agree, Dave. John has every right to say hand made and stand out above the rest because of it. I can understand completely where he is coming from and I don't fault him for it one bit. I love the fact that when folks ask me about my Adventurebilts I can tell them everything is done 100 percent by hand. I look forward to saying the same of my Penman fedora when I get that down the road.

These guys deserve to be fussy about such bragging rights, especially because their quality stands out as much as their claims. I'd be miffed, too, if I were in their shoes.

Again, my idea of the fourth category was to figure out a way for the "partially made by hand" crowd to get their deserved piece of recognition. Simply applying "hand made" isn't quite fair to the likes of John, Steve, Marc, et al, but having seen a number of Art's hats in person, I can see how such hats deserve "hand crafted" or "hand something" so as to elevate these fedoras above the likes of a factory or typical machine made hat. The same applies to quality Panama hats, in my book, where you have multiple fingers and tools producing a final product.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:43 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:
DR Ulloa wrote: Rick, you hit the nail on the head. If it is well made, nothing can take that away. Hats that are partially made by hand should have some hand made praise, but it should stand apart from a pure hand made hat. What really bugs me is when a hat has "Hand Made" on the sweat even though it was given the Henry Ford treatment.
John, I'm not saying that a sewing machine is better than a hand sewn one. We're on the same page there!

I agree, Dave. John has every right to say hand made and stand out above the rest because of it. I can understand completely where he is coming from and I don't fault him for it one bit. I love the fact that when folks ask me about my Adventurebilts I can tell them everything is done 100 percent by hand. I look forward to saying the same of my Penman fedora when I get that down the road. These guys deserve to be fussy about such bragging rights, especially because their quality stands out as much as their claims. I'd be miffed, too, if I were in their shoes.

Again, my idea of the fourth category was to figure out a way for the "partially made by hand" crowd to get their deserved piece of recognition. Simply applying "hand made" isn't quite fair to the likes of John, Steve, Marc, et al, but having seen a number of Art's hats in person, I can see how such hats deserve "hand crafted" or "hand something" so as to elevate these fedoras above the likes of a factory or typical machine made hat. The same applies to quality Panama hats, in my book, where you have multiple fingers and tools producing a final product.

Very good point. Thats why if you notice Art doesn't say handmade on his site anymore. that I have a great respect for. he's being upfront and honest about what he does. He states custom made.

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:51 pm

BendingOak wrote:
DR Ulloa wrote:What really bugs me is when a hat has "Hand Made" on the sweat even though it was given the Henry Ford treatment.
Thank you David. Thats the point. If it's not hand made it shouldn't say it all over the hat.

it's what I was trying to say in my earlier post. I can't stand the fact that a DP has the legal right to be declared handmade. it's like there's no "technical" difference between, say, a DP and an AB - while we all know there is a LOT of difference.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:04 pm

Restless Dreamer wrote: ...it's like there's no "technical" difference between, say, a DP and an AB - while we all know there is a LOT of difference.

At least 20 odd letters of the alphabet difference.

I like "custom made." I think that still denotes a level of quality and craftsmanship above the standard. However, how about hats produced in a similar fashion which are not actual custom orders, but made with set specifications in mind?

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:22 pm

This is one of those minefields of language. I mean, We live in a time when most people have no clue what these terms are supposed to mean, there can be a very large gap between what one person says and another understands. "Custom" isn't even immune to severe misunderstanding or misuse anymore. I can't tell you how many off-the-rack catalog items are described as "custom made" or "custom tailored." Then there's custom finished, hand finished, hand assembled, custom detailed...

Help Me!

So, in an ideal world... or at least a world where most people know what you're talking about without a mini-dictionary on hand... the three categories and the combination of them might be fine as is.
But communicating the right idea today requires more finesse of language, and think Bink is right. There should be a word for the kind of fine workmanship like Art's, which falls outside neat categorization. "Machine made"? Sounds the same as "factory made" to the layman. "Partly made by hand" just sounds like somebody is stretching the truth. "Hand Crafted" sounds closer, but would the average joe know the difference between that and "hand made."

Art saying he's "custom" really means nothing in this day and age. I respect that he makes no false claims, but that word is an empty one today (and frankly falls short of what he does), where an off-the-rack hat with the customers choice of ribbon color gets called custom as much as Penman lid does!

Now that I think of it, "hand made" can be a poor term for John's work, too. It's not like the sweatbands and ribbons were made by hand. I doubt they make felt bodies by hand anymore (a guess, I admit). Would "hand fashioned" work? I just don't know. I could buy a bunch of Federations, strip them down, do some extra pouncing, and sew on new parts and give it a reblock. I just made a custom hat by hand!

If I'm not honest about it, I am slime, but where do I draw the line?

Is there a difference in levels of craftmanship? Heck Yes! But I don't think it's possible to boil it down to just three groups and then play mix 'n' match. Not with today's numb grasp of the english language. I say, take pride in how you do things, and spell it out. Don't lean on neat little phrases.

(No offense meant to anyone, on this board or off. I just get punchy about how modern language has lost it's meaning.)

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:24 pm

Restless Dreamer wrote:
BendingOak wrote:
DR Ulloa wrote:What really bugs me is when a hat has "Hand Made" on the sweat even though it was given the Henry Ford treatment.
Thank you David. Thats the point. If it's not hand made it shouldn't say it all over the hat.
it's what I was trying to say in my earlier post. I can't stand the fact that a DP has the legal right to be declared handmade. it's like there's no "technical" difference between, say, a DP and an AB - while we all know there is a LOT of difference.

Sorry, i didn't read it that way.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:37 pm

'Hand made' should be defined by manufacturers to put it in the context they mean.

It still comes down to definition

I'm not sure how you differentiate.

something like - 100% made by hand ?
- made and sewn by hand ?

If you say 'custom hand made' I think you are back in the same position. Someone now using 'hand made' when they are using a sewing machine will use that too for the same reasons.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:39 pm

RCSignals wrote:

I'm not sure how you differentiate.

something like - 100% made by hand ?
- made and sewn by hand ?

Wouldn't that be handmade.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:51 pm

BendingOak wrote:
RCSignals wrote:

I'm not sure how you differentiate.

something like - 100% made by hand ?
- made and sewn by hand ?

Wouldn't that be handmade.

Yes it would. The problem though seems to be the hats that are not made entirely 'by hand' that still use 'hand made' . That's why I suggest those two alternatives to a simple 'hand made' label.

I guess it can be left to 'buyer beware' and 'do your research'

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:59 pm

BendingOak wrote:Jason,

I'm not knocking anyones skill with a sewing machine but there are things the human hand can only do, that a machine can't. I doubt I can explain it here. The reason I don't sew using a sewing machine is not because I don't have the skill. Wait for my youtube video.

John, you don't need to explain anything to me, I know what stitch you're talking about. I spent a good deal of my life around tailoring. I also have one of your hats and I see the stitching done in it, and I can tell you that it can be done on a sewing machine. I'm sorry, I don't mean to start a fight with you, but I think we should get the facts straight if we're going to debate the merits of hand-sewing sweats vs. machine sewing.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:11 pm

jasonalun wrote:
BendingOak wrote:Jason,

I'm not knocking anyones skill with a sewing machine but there are things the human hand can only do, that a machine can't. I doubt I can explain it here. The reason I don't sew using a sewing machine is not because I don't have the skill. Wait for my youtube video.
John, you don't need to explain anything to me, I know what stitch you're talking about. I spent a good deal of my life around tailoring. I also have one of your hats and I see the stitching done in it, and I can tell you that it can be done on a sewing machine. I'm sorry, I don't mean to start a fight with you, but I think we should get the facts straight if we're going to debate the merits of hand-sewing sweats vs. machine sewing.

I'm sorry to say but unless you took out the liner you did not see the sweatband stitching and I have yet to see a single hat made using a sewing machine copy what can only be done by hand.

Have you Jason ever sew in a sweatband using a sewing machine? or by hand? Maybe you should get your straight.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:00 pm

Chewbacca Jones wrote:This is one of those minefields of language. I mean, We live in a time when most people have no clue what these terms are supposed to mean, there can be a very large gap between what one person says and another understands. "Custom" isn't even immune to severe misunderstanding or misuse anymore. I can't tell you how many off-the-rack catalog items are described as "custom made" or "custom tailored." Then there's custom finished, hand finished, hand assembled, custom detailed... Help Me!

So, in an ideal world... or at least a world where most people know what you're talking about without a mini-dictionary on hand... the three categories and the combination of them might be fine as is.
But communicating the right idea today requires more finesse of language, and think Bink is right. There should be a word for the kind of fine workmanship like Art's, which falls outside neat categorization. "Machine made"? Sounds the same as "factory made" to the layman. "Partly made by hand" just sounds like somebody is stretching the truth. "Hand Crafted" sounds closer, but would the average joe know the difference between that and "hand made."

Art saying he's "custom" really means nothing in this day and age. I respect that he makes no false claims, but that word is an empty one today (and frankly falls short of what he does), where an off-the-rack hat with the customers choice of ribbon color gets called custom as much as Penman lid does!

Now that I think of it, "hand made" can be a poor term for John's work, too. It's not like the sweatbands and ribbons were made by hand. I doubt they make felt bodies by hand anymore (a guess, I admit). Would "hand fashioned" work? I just don't know. I could buy a bunch of Federations, strip them down, do some extra pouncing, and sew on new parts and give it a reblock. I just made a custom hat by hand! If I'm not honest about it, I am slime, but where do I draw the line?

Is there a difference in levels of craftmanship? Heck Yes! But I don't think it's possible to boil it down to just three groups and then play mix 'n' match. Not with today's numb grasp of the english language. I say, take pride in how you do things, and spell it out. Don't lean on neat little phrases.

(No offense meant to anyone, on this board or off. I just get punchy about how modern language has lost it's meaning.)

Very well stated my friend.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:05 pm

Obviously this is a touchy subject as evidenced by people who have valid professional experience on both sides of the fence. Perhaps it's best to "agree to disagree" on some points instead of going around in circles arguing. I don't believe there is a disagreement that overall quality is what matters in the end, it's just the route it takes to get there. Let's try to keep things from getting too heated.

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:15 pm

No argument from me.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:23 pm

I can agree with you Rick. But I don't agree to disagree. We just plain disagree.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:26 pm

I agree about the disagreeing bit, but disagree abut the agreeing bit. Do you agree?

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:57 pm

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:57 pm

I agree that the agreement between the two parties who agreed to disagree is an agreeable disagreement. As long as the disagreeing parties who have agreed to disagree, agree to disagree agreeably.
This argument kind of reminds me of the infamous stetson and the "Triple X, Quadruple X, XXXXXXXXXXXX" in the end its just semantics. Those of us who know quality when we see it, love it. I love John's hats! They are an entity unto themselves. Anyone who cannot see that is clearly a doo doo head.

Travis

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:05 am

Hollowpond wrote:I agree that the agreement between the two parties who agreed to disagree is an agreeable disagreement. As long as the disagreeing parties who have agreed to disagree, agree to disagree agreeably.
This argument kind of reminds me of the infamous stetson and the "Triple X, Quadruple X, XXXXXXXXXXXX" in the end its just semantics. Those of us who know quality when we see it, love it. I love John's hats! They are an entity unto themselves. Anyone who cannot see that is clearly a doo doo head.

Travis

Agreed. I love Art's hats, I love Steve's hats, I love Graham's hats. I'm sure if I bought a hat from John I'd love his too. Could a 100% hand-made hat take more of a beating than one which had its sweat sewn by machine? Yeah, but the point is, both hats could take a #### of a beating and keep on trucking. -M

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:25 am

For me, I love being able to say that my hat was completely hand made. If I am asked about my hat, I make sure I point out that even the stitching on the sweatband was put in by hand. Most people are just shocked! They had no idea that people even did that anymore! So I love being the one to tell them all about it.

You can't buy pride like that.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:56 am

Just look at it this way. Why would someone like Steve ( AB ). Who has somewhere between 1-2 of orders sitting in front of him to make sew them by hand?