What's a "Raven Bar" hat? What's a "Streets of Cairo" hat?

[jasonalun]

I've been asked by a few people on the board to put together something that will help newcomers to Indy hats, or those who don't know our jargon, to understand what hats we are referring to when we say things like "Raven Bar" or "Idol Grab." Also, some don't quite know what the defining differences are between all the various scenes' hats. So I have tried to, in a nutshell, explain with graphics, screenshots and descriptions what these differences are, and what a certain kind of Indy hat looks like. I have more planned, as I mentioned in this thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41436&p=628402#p628402) but this will get things started. Hopefully this will be useful to some on the board. Enjoy!

[VP]

Good pics.

[jasonalun]

Thanks, VP!

[Insomniac]

Neat idea.
Great for hat noobs like me.

[Canyon]

Great work, jasonalun!

This is a fantastic idea for the new guys and gals.

[jasonalun]

Thank you Canyon! I appreciate that coming from a true COW veteran like yourself. Nice of you to stop in!

[Hollowpond]

Good job!

[Photoss]

Excellent, thank you!

[hulkamad]

Wow! Thanks so much for this! These pics are great. The explanations are even better. When I first heard of this site long ago on my search for the perfect Indy hat, the threads describing the different hat styles per scene were so confusing for me. (SOC? Temple? DP? ABD? What are these people talking about?) Going through thread after thread doing research for weeks trying to figure everything out was a daunting task. Just learning the vocabulary and the acronyms for some of the hat styles was almost enough for me to throw up my hands and say, "Forget it!" Not to mention having to learn the "architecture" of a fedora... (What is a "brim"? "Rabbit or beaver"? The turn?" What..?) I sure wish this was around over a year ago... but seeing this just confirms that the Adventurebilt hats I ordered by scene style were correct and are exactly what I wanted! I just need to continue calmly waiting for the day they arrive.... (I ordered a SOC and an Idol Grab in case you wanted to know.) Now my only worry is whether I measured my head correctly the 3 times. If they arrive too small, I'll punch my self in the head until my cranium is the right size! But seriously, these pics and explainations are great!

[davidd]

Thank you very much for posting these explanations. The little arrows-with-captions are a great touch! I'll be watching for your additions to this hat primer!

[Restless Dreamer]

I'm happy this topic has been brought back to life

[gwyddion]

Great to see this return Good job on the explanations jasonalun!

Regards, Geert

[Satipo]

Very informative, jasonalun. Really well done!

It helped me see things I'd not noticed before, particularly the low back on the Well of the Souls hat.

[djd]

A really useful bit of work. Thanks again

[crismans]

Terrific work! Very good explanations of the various types of looks.

[jasonalun]

hulkamad - You're most welcome! I'm so glad to hear this was a help to you and eliminated a great deal of confusion for you. I put a good deal of thought and work and into those and I hoped it would pay off for some people. Looks like it did and I'm very glad to hear!

Tundrarider, thanks Michael for your kind words as well. I'm excited to start on the next one now!

crismans, gwyddion, djd, Restless Dreamer, thanks for your feedback as well!

davidd, Satipo thanks for pointing out specific things you liked about them. I'll make sure I include more of that in subsequent ones. I think I'll use a consistent font color and put boxes with semi-transparent backgrounds on them. More easily readable and better looking.

[RaidersBash]

That's awesome!!!

I just posted this a bit ago in another thread, but i'm always so struck by how wide the brim looks in cairo vs. how it looks in the Idol Grab and in the Raven Bar. I've tried a few times with my Downtowner, and I just can't get the width, although it makes a great Raven Bar and pretty good Idol Grab...

what gives?

[jasonalun]

RaidersBash,

I think the reason is because the SOC hat has a bit of its crown transitioning into its brim. The brim break is softened out, either because the hat no longer has a sweatband (some have speculated) or simply because of the heat and abuse the hat has taken by this point. This makes the brim appear a bit longer, especially in front.

[Holt]

it appears longer becasue the ribbon is eiter replaced or pushed upwards on the crown

[BendingOak]

I think it looks slightly longer for a couple of reason. flatter the brim the longer it's going to look. Also the ribbon is sliding up a bit because the tack down stitches are sewn on way to high on the ribbon. The brim break didn't hold up very well either, so crown is running into the brim on the front of the hat. Not a real good sign of a quality hat. As he runs and hide for saying such a thing.

[Holt]

[jasonalun]

The brim really isn't as long as it appears in some scenes. In this one, Holt, there's some lens distortion going on because the brim is so close in the shot. Take a shot from the side and, using the ribbon as a guide, you can see that the brim definitely isn't any longer than 3", and may be even around 2 7/8". There may be some extra length in there transitioned in from the crown because of the softened up brim break, but not much.

[Fedora]

I think there was even some brim spec variation in this film. There are pics that show what looks to be a 2 3/4 by 2 1/2 brim, on the hat. And some look to be around 2 7/8 by 2 5/8. I don't know for sure if the variation was from the cut, or from the deal that happens when you film things, from different angles, and distances. But alot of those Raider fedoras look to have the smaller brim size to me. Because face it, 2 5/8's on the sides look too wide on alot of folks who have posted their hats here with those specs.

One of the film hats Bernie measured for us, was 2 9/16ths on the sides. Or, between 2 1/2 and 2 5/8. If Swales cut these by hand, he probably did not get them all exact. Unless you really scribe out the brim, it is easy to vary a bit, if you are just eyeballing the dimensional cut. And on the hats he cut the brim on for us, he just eyeballed it. One side might be 1/16 an inch shorter than the other. Or in one case, 1/8 and inch. But this is probably part of the charm of the Raiders fedora. It looks differently, depending upon the scene referred to. Alot of variation going on, when you get down to the nit picky details! Fedora

[jasonalun]

That's very interesting, Stev. For some reason I hadn't made the connection, that Swales hand-cut those, and he was known to just "eyeball" them, so they probably had variation in them, even from one side to the other of the same hat. Thanks for sharing that! I think you are right as well about the brims tending to be shorter, as I find my Garrison Raider, which has 2 5/8" sides, to be slightly wide in the brim, at least for my face. But my skull is the same size and shape as Ford's (7 1/4 - long oval), so I tend to think that wide a brim would have looked too wide on him as well. That's just my speculation.

[DR Ulloa]

But your head size doesn't change your facial shape. You can have a full face and have a 7 1/4 head. It all depends on your face. My CS AB with the film specs looks too narrow on me. The one with the wider brim, however, looks just right. It has a 3 1/8'' brim and it looks perfect for the SoC width on me. Even my Penman, which has a 2 7/8'' brim, doesn't look wide enough on me for the SoC. It all depends on your face.

Dave

[Michaelson]

But my skull is the same size and shape as Ford's (7 1/4 - long oval)....

That MIGHT be another factor in your case, as the 'travel hat' made for Ford in CS used 'my block' that Steve has used for me for literally years. I wear size 7 3/8 long oval, 23" around, so you're actually once size smaller than what Ford wears. I doubt his head has gotten larger as he's aged.

Regards! Michaelson

[jasonalun]

I guess I goofed typing the size, Michaelson. I'm a 23" around, so I am the same size as Ford.

[Michaelson]

Very good. You're a solid 7 3/8 too.

Regards! Michaelson

[Satipo]

Hang on - I thought Ford wasn't actually a long oval after all. In the thread, Crystal Skull turn, Fedora writes:

I do know one thing for sure, that is a fact. The warped brim of most of the Raider fedoras can be achieved easily by turning the hat, on purpose, or accidently. Something is causing the brim to warp, and a turn is the simplest answer. The long oval head doesn't fly here, because Ford isn't really a long oval. I don't know where that urban myth got started. But it still is very alive today. We custom made the hats, for Harrison, and Bernie was aware of round ovals, reg ovals, and long ovals. We made the hats in regular ovals.

[jasonalun]

I never saw that post of Steve's. I guess he's not then.

[Michaelson]

Well, I am (independently determined by another hatmaker with conformer), and that AB travel block makes hats that fit MY noggin, so at least ONE of Ford's hats is a long oval, whether it was supposed to or not. Not starting an argument with Steve, but that's just how the AB travel block works on my head, crossreferenced with my head shape measurement with a conformer and another hat maker and his product.

It goes right back to the debate on why Ford's brim creates that weird 'swoop'. The argument has been that it can be created pulling a round oval hat onto a long oval head. That's exactly what my brims do when I try that.

Anyway, old discussions, old debates, new information....always fun!

Regards! Michaelson

[Indiana Bugs]

Well, I am (independently determined by another hatmaker with conformer), and that AB travel block makes hats that fit MY noggin, so at least ONE of Ford's hats is a long oval, whether it was supposed to or not. Not starting an argument with Steve, but that's just how the AB travel block works on my head, crossreferenced with my head shape measurement with a conformer and another hat maker and his product.

It goes right back to the debate on why Ford's brim creates that weird 'swoop'. The argument has been that it can be created pulling a round oval hat onto a long oval head. That's exactly what my brims do when I try that.

Anyway, old discussions, old debates, new information....always fun!

Regards! Michaelson

My Fed IV is a regular oval and my head is a long oval. When I pull the hat by the front and back of the sweatband, the brim distorts in an oh-so-lovely way. Now that Ive removed the the sizing tape, Im gonna work on getting the hat to retain a bit more of this long oval shape.

[Bdgsi11]

Does any one know how to achieve the very dramatic brim swoop in the raven bar scene? I know that the hat was turned, but that can't be it, or is it? I ask this question because my hat is turned, but it does not appear at all to have such a brim swoop as in that particular scene. Can any one help?

http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/119.jpg

[Yojimbo Jones]

I've found that as the others have mentioned, you have to both do the turn and elongate the hat (preferably with your head!). To see the effect, juct hold your hat by the front and back of the sweatband (IE inside) and gently pull. You should see the swoop appear.

[Indiana Bugs]

Yes, I got a just a touch of this swoop when I finally took the sizing tape out of the sides of my Fed and let this regular oval hat conform to my long oval head.

[gwyddion]

That would immediately explain why you weren't getting that swoop in the first place

Regards, Geert

[Bdgsi11]

Awesome,Thanks for the feedback. Before I thought I had to slightly curl the brim, but now I have seen the light. Thanks

[maboot38]

Great work with these pics and descriptions jasonalum!!!!!