The various scenes and styles

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:13 am

One thing I have wanted to do for some time is take the famous "hat mosaic" and some other pics and sort them by scene. Just pictures of the hat from as many angles as possible sorted by scene.No commentaries, no interpretations just reference material for those who want to bash a hat to a certain scene that they can interpret on their own to get their own interpretation of a certain bash. Unfortunately I always have lacked the time to do this.

Regards, Geert

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:18 am

there is already something like this, even if the pictures are not sorted in order

http://www.sarednabworldprops.com/forum ... &mode=view

there are mosaics for LC, TOD and CS too.

I reckon that a mosaic, even if useful, would still be incomplete, if meant for bash helping purposes

but you might rework those already existing and add your contribution, if you want

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:29 am

Hey, Restless Dreamer and all,

I am working on that "explanation" piece on different bashes, and will have it out soon, but probably not this week. I'm getting swamped at work and with some other things at home so I haven't had much time to devote to it, but I am working on it, and haven't forgotten!

I did stay up rather late last night (I'm so dedicated

) and made some 20 or so very nice screen shots of the Last Crusade hat, some shots never before seen here (that I can tell anyway) that I plan to include in the guide, so people that aren't as informed on the nuances of the different hats styles or don't quite see them can have it spelled out clearly for them with screenshots with lines and such pointing to the differences and describing them in some detail. I will try to stay as far as I can from conjecture and opinion, and stick to what is generally agreed on, say for instance, that the "Venice Pier" hat had extremely curled side brims, or that they "Idol Grab" hat in Raiders has a very tight, sharp-edged front pinch. These might seem rather obvious and to many of us, but it appears there are many who would appreciate such a guide, expecially "newbies" to the Indy gear world.

I wil do a "Raiders styles guide" and a "Last Crusade styles guide" first. Then, time permitting, and if those are well-received, I will try my hand at a "Temple of Doom styles guide."

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:53 am

If you need good screen caps, you might use those used in the mosaics I and gwyddion were talking about

Let me know if you need them.

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:29 am

Restless Dreamer wrote:If you need good screen caps, you might use those used in the mosaics I and gwyddion were talking about Let me know if you need them.

Thanks, RD - I have them all already. I am making more of my own to get some angles that don't exist in those shots, but I will definitely use those too.

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:01 pm

I applaud the efforts you guys put in to this, but isn't it just easier to put the movie on, while bashing your hat. That's what I did and it gave me a much better idea of the proportions, because the image is moving instead of static. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of Indy pics, but I found I didn't use them as much as I did the movies.
To each his own, of course.

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:11 pm

Bullit, our goal isn't just to provide screen caps. We also would like to give some basic informations about the various styles.

For example, when someone asks "why is the Raiders hat peculiar?", one can answer "well it's untapered, turned and have a tight pinch". but how can you explain in a few words why is - let's say - the SOC hat peculiar? Why one refers to it as SOC hat and not just Raiders hat?

What we are trying to achieve is to provide a simple explaination, aided by screen caps, of (almost) every hat style we often refer to.

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:31 pm

My bad, RD, I missed that info. Screen caps WITH text is new to me. Sounds like a big task, though. I'm interested to see what you guys come up with.

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:39 pm

a big task indeed, and a tricky one. you see, many of the nuances of the various styles are not officially accepted by everyone. one can say that particular hat is tapered while another can deny it. so, every list will anyway be incomplete and/or unexact, that is unofficial

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:45 pm

Restless Dreamer wrote:there is already something like this, even if the pictures are not sorted in order

http://www.sarednabworldprops.com/forum ... &mode=view

there are mosaics for LC, TOD and CS too.

I reckon that a mosaic, even if useful, would still be incomplete, if meant for bash helping purposes but you might rework those already existing and add your contribution, if you want

If you are going to continue to pursue this, I HIGHLY recommend you do your own work and NOT 'rework' anyone else's work but your own.

Websites and individuals do not appreciate others 'capturing' their hard work without their written permission. This is a HUGE no-no.

Regards! Michaelson

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:50 pm

ok mr mike, don't get anxious

I was not suggesting to "steal" anyone else's work, I was just stating that a photomosaic already existed, and could have been useful for retrieving good screen captures

don't worry, we will not create any problem...

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:21 pm

Sorry Michaelson, I was the one who first brought up the photo mosaic

I can do it for private purposes, right?

Regards, Geert

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:47 pm

Michaelson wrote:Websites and individuals do not appreciate others 'capturing' their hard work without their written permission. This is a HUGE no-no.
Regards! Michaelson

As RD said, I'm not stealing anyone's work. No one owns the individual screenshots (except Paramount

), and that would be all I would be using, and applying my own illustration and text where appropriate.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:49 pm

Restless Dreamer wrote:ok mr mike, don't get anxious I was not suggesting to "steal" anyone else's work, I was just stating that a photomosaic already existed, and could have been useful for retrieving good screen captures

don't worry, we will not create any problem...

RD, what you said was:

...but you might rework those already existing and add your contribution, if you want ....

That is the comment I was replying to. 'Rework' is not 'retreiving'.

Regards! Michaelson

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:59 pm

michaelson, please note that I'm not american or english and so it might happen that I choose the wrong words, sometimes. could you please be more easy on me and avoid to split hairs?

so, to clear it: I didn't mention to suggest to steal somebody's work

Hope this time I explained myself well. The linguistic obstacle can be tricky sometimes...

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:03 pm

Understood....then make a note for future reference....'reworking' someones work without their permission is stealing. Plain and simple.

Make sure of your meaning before you post. Others could pick up on your remark and run with it as being an acceptable practice. It is not.

This is something we really frown on, as we've caught other sites who have cut and pasted items from COW that has taken individuals hours of work and personal time to compile then share, only to find their work stolen and posted elsewhere under the guise of being 'THEIR' work. It's frustrating, and wrong.

Didn't mean to come down so hard, but this is a definite sore spot with the administration of COW. We don't want someone from this community being quoted as saying something like this is ok, then IG being pointed to as being the source of that information. Sites are always blamed, and never an individual.

What you do on your own is your decision, but a posted warning is now a part of this thread and record. Carry on.

Regards! Michaelson

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:02 am

Well, I found some time to get this together. I have more planned, as I mentioned, but this will get things started. Hopefully this will be useful to some on the board. Enjoy!

EDIT : moved to its own thread so it doesn't get buried/lost in this one.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43842

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:27 am

hey jason! nice work indeed! the idol grab image doesn't load, though

if I can suggest, I'd add some infos:

- in the temple scene box, you could write that in many of the sequences before the idol grab the hat was not turned.

- in the SOC box, you could add that the back of the brim is usally snapped down (as image you could use the one featuring Indy with his hand covering his face: a nice front look that shows well how the back of the brim dips down)

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:42 am

Restless Dreamer, it should load now. I was tweaking it and probably hadn't finished yet when you clicked on it.

I might try to add that to the SOC hat, but it isn't really pulled down, it just appears that way due to the brim warp and the sagging of the brim due to the heat and stress, in addition to being set back somewhat on his head in some scenes. I was trying to stay clear of too much detail, particularly about whether a hat was "turned" or not, because that's where a lot of the conjecture is centered. I describe the warping effect and point it out, but I don't say anything about the turn except to describe it as a theory that is used to explain the warping on the brim. I personally can't see how anyone could doubt it, as I've done the experiment myself and the turn IS what causes that effect, no doubt in my mind whatsoever, but I've heard some don't believe in "the turn," so I leave it at that.

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:47 am

you are right not making assumption stating they are definitive and sure. I see what you mean. What I was trying to say is that it should be pointed out that the Outside Temple hat, unlike the others, doesn't show any warping on the brim, and has the ribbon placed just above the ear - leaving the turn aside

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:50 am

See, this is why stuff like this doesn't work. Everyone interprets the hats differently. There is a lot of hard work in these (they are very good by the way) but not everyone will see what is described or agree with it. I don't think the hat where Indy is drinking, the one you described, Restless Dreamer, is the same one as the SoC footchase hat. How about the taper seen in the Raven Bar hat and the Well of Souls hat? Jason may not see it or interpret what he sees as taper. I do. I think the Raven Bar hat has a supremely more warped brim than the SoC hat. Many will agree with me and many will agree with him. It is all in what you see.

Dave

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:00 am

DR Ulloa wrote:See, this is why stuff like this doesn't work. Everyone interprets the hats differently. There is a lot of hard work in these (they are very good by the way) but not everyone will see what is described or agree with it. I don't think the hat where Indy is drinking, the one you described, Restless Dreamer, is the same one as the SoC footchase hat. How about the taper seen in the Raven Bar hat and the Well of Souls hat? Jason may not see it or interpret what he sees as taper. I do. I think the Raven Bar hat has a supremely more warped brim than the SoC hat. Many will agree with me and many will agree with him. It is all in what you see.

Dave

I don't mention taper or how turned a hat is in any of these. I just say it shows some brim warping. I think what I've included are things everyone can pretty much agree on - "this hat has deep front pinches," "this one has warping in the brim." RD, you're right, but I do mention that the Temple hat brim is flat. That kind of says "no warping" by itself.

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:04 am

well, Ulloa, you are right. but what you say has been declared by me and jason many times before: we are not stating that jasons descriptions are perfect or complete

If you look at the thread called Fedora FAQs and Links, you will see a post by Dalex which reads:

3) What are the differences between the 4 movie hats?
Raiders: Tall crown height. Distinct, tight pinch. Wide brim.
Temple of Doom: Shorter, slightly tapered crown. Relaxed pinch.
A variety of looks depending on the scene due to various suppliers.
Last Crusade: Taller crown then TOD, un-tapered. Pinch not quite as tight as Raiders. Narrower brim but with more swoop.
Crystal Skull: Very Raiders in size and shape, with a Raiders style block, but with a Last Crusade style loose pinch in front.

It is clear that these descriptions are not meant to be exhaustive or definitive. But they give a trace, a hint, a path to follow. We are trying to do the same.

In the same thread I mentioned before, you can find also an analysis by Pyroxene about the Raiders hat. That analysis is precise and very clear, but still not exhaustive - it is generic, indeed.

So, jason's descriptions are not meant to be Law. they are just his own personal analysis, which can be discussed, refused or accepted.

Hope I explained myself well - and without sounding aggressive! I don't mean to create any struggles, just to clear things up

@Jason: that's fine to me

as I've just said, this is your own personal vision, and it's meant to be generic. Again, I thank you for your efforts.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:07 am

Well, one line of debate regarding the brim warping (that you point out, jason) is DUE to the possible turn of the hat, which not everyone agrees with either. Lots of side alley's one can go running down.

Pyroxene's observations were made years ago, and a lot of discoveries and discussions that have taken place since he posted those show several of his observations were not quite on target.

That's what's neat about this 'old' hobby. It's constantly evolving.

The illustrations you've created are great! Looks like collector cards to me!

Regards! Michaelson

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:07 am

Well, even when you think you're agreeing, people still find issues. Like with this right now. You know you mentioned something that RD is asking you to put in there. As far as there being aspects of the hat that everyone can agree upon, I think that begins and ends with that the hat is brown, wide brimmed, and tall crowned. I don't necessarily agree with everything you've inlcuded. I think that what you've done is great and I really enjoyed looking through them and reading them. I don't mean to take away from what you ahve done here. I'm just saying that not everyone will look at these pics and see what you see.

Dave

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:10 am

Thanks, RD, that's about what I was going to say. I tried to be as general as possible, sticking to the main features I think almost everyone can agree on, but in the end it is my description, so people are free to use it, agree with it, embellish is, or disagree with it and reject it .

I hope it will be appreciated. Thanks for the compliments on it, by the way, Dave.

By the way, if you want to get that "post-modern" and subjective about it, I can even disagree that it is "wide-brimmed" or "tall crowned."

But I don't think we want to go down that road. Despite everyone's personal opinions, we do agree on some things, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about an "SOC hat" or a "Raven Bar" hat. Most everyone knows what kind of hat you mean when you say those words, so what do we mean? There are some things that can be agreed upon.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:12 am

Oh, it will definately be appreciated. I think a lot of people will use this as a starting point to creasing their own hats. I would like to see a CS one.

Dave

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:17 am

I just may do that, Dave. I'm planning a Last Crusade one next, then a TOD, then after those are done I could do a CS, perhaps. It was a lot of fun doing these. Just wish I had more time to work on them...

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:23 am

jasonalun wrote: Despite everyone's personal opinions, we do agree on some things, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about an "SOC hat" or a "Raven Bar" hat. Most everyone knows what kind of hat you mean when you say those words, so what do we mean? There are some things that can be agreed upon.

your words are just perfect

about CS, I've noticed this is the only movie which hasn't so many variations on styles. Seems that Steve and Marc tried to make all the hats look the same and put special effort in creating a continuity during the movie. We talk about "SOC" and "Cockpit" and "Suspension Bridge", but I never heard about - let's say - "giants ants scene hat", "waterfall hat", "area 51 hat" and so on - and this saves us a lot of troubles

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:26 am

LLS would be the guy to give the nuances of the Raiders fedora. I think he has studied that hat, even more than myself. Of course, LLS is a surveyor full time, and a hatmaker on the side. So, he may not have the time needed to do a really good comparison, but I have no doubt this fine man has the eye and skill to do this. He is one of the best in this area.

I wish I had the time to put the dvd in the player and start taking notes, along with the film shoot schedule, to do this for you guys. Wait until I retire and I will be glad to tackle that job.

Fedora

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:46 am

Actually, RD, I see variations in the hat in CS. There are some scenes I like more than others. The Hangar 51 hat is my favorite in the series. Conversely, I don't particularly like the crease the hat has before getting to Ox's old cell. You just have to look a little closer to see the nuances in the CS hat.

Dave

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:47 am

We talk about "SOC" and "Cockpit" and "Suspension Bridge", but I never heard about - let's say - "giants ants scene hat", "waterfall hat", "area 51 hat" and so on - and this saves us a lot of troubles

A compliment, thanks. But...I see nuances in the CS fedora. I think this has not been talked about mostly because it is the last hat, and does not have the character and charm of the Raiders fedora. We never talk about the nuances of the TOD or TLC fedora much either. Perhaps 30 years from now, those guys might be discussing it. But I won't be around more than likely to chime in. Marc should be though.

Also, the Raiders fedora does seem to almost be different hats, i.e. not from the same block. I doubt this is the case, and some of what we see with the Raiders fedora is probably taper from the heat and humidity. And some is the distressing, natural, and artificial, along with the creases being different. I do think the CS hat suffered little from the natural distressing, like getting soaked, dried then reused in the film. No rabbit hat could have done that, unless it was a vintage felt. No rabbit hat could have been dried, re bashed, and used again. They would have had to grab a new hat.

Yet if we are to use Screenused Raiders fedora as the Rosetta Stone, that Raiders felt actually held up better than I ever thought it would. Now, I can see taper galore, in his hat, but other rabbit felt would have been a dunce cone by this point in time. It speaks well of the Raiders felt, IMO. IF, that is indeed a real deal film hat. (most think it is) But, doing bow studies, on that hat, and other Raider fedoras, LLS and I have found a discrepency in dimensions of that bow and center knot. But that can be explained. So, it really isn't anything you could say that would intimate it was a fake. Because the opening scene, outside the temple hat, does not have the same exact bow as seen in the rest of the film. There are differences, and this was probably because the bows were made by Swales, and were not exact from hat to hat. Very close, yes, but not exact. The bows I made for Indy 4 were close, but not exact. But, one thing that was exact was the placement of the hold down stitches on the bottom of the ribbon. I literally used a ruler, a marked one, to put the stitch points in the exact same place on all of Harrison's hats. So, I could tell you if a hat was a real film hat, just by pulling out that short little ruler and placing it on the stitches. It they lined up, yep, it was one we sent. If not, it was a fake. But, I did it because Bernie wanted clones, so I made them as precise as humanly possible. Fedora

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:24 am

Fedora wrote:LLS would be the guy to give the nuances of the Raiders fedora. I think he has studied that hat, even more than myself. Of course, LLS is a surveyor full time, and a hatmaker on the side. So, he may not have the time needed to do a really good comparison, but I have no doubt this fine man has the eye and skill to do this. He is one of the best in this area.

I wish I had the time to put the dvd in the player and start taking notes, along with the film shoot schedule, to do this for you guys. Wait until I retire and I will be glad to tackle that job. Fedora

Hi Steve, thanks for chiming in!

I agree LLS is the man when it comes to the Raiders hat, but here I was just trying to cover the very basics - the aspects of the different Raiders hats that we almost all recognize, that separate the hats from each other. Maybe LLS can put together the definitive "Raiders Hat Guide" someday, as a glossy coffee-table book.

I would sure buy one.

But that isn't what this is for. Just a handy guide for newbies or those who need a better explanation of some of the terms we throw around here like "creases" and "the turn."

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:37 am

Actually, RD, I see variations in the hat in CS

of course there are variations. what I was stating is that I've never heard someone discussing about the differences between scene and scene so far. but maybe, as Fedora says, this is just because the CS is a new entry, and the differences are not clearly visible like the ones between - let's say - Idol Grab and SOC.

talking about that, Ulloa, which scenes would you use to name the various hats? Hangar Scene, Ox Cell, what next? these definitions could come in handy

A compliment, thanks. But...I see nuances in the CS fedora.

well, I'm not surprised

you and Marc made the hats, so it's clear you have the eagle eye that takes for distinguish a hat from another. to my "simple human" eyes, the hats are really precise - for lack of a better word. a very good job was done in order to make it seem the hat was one and only.

Local Land Surveyor · Post by **Local Land Surveyor** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:00 pm

Fedora wrote:LLS would be the guy to give the nuances of the Raiders fedora. I think he has studied that hat, even more than myself. Of course, LLS is a surveyor full time, and a hatmaker on the side. So, he may not have the time needed to do a really good comparison, but I have no doubt this fine man has the eye and skill to do this. He is one of the best in this area.

WOW

Thank you, Fedora. My computer is stuffed with picture analysis that would make 3THOU$ envious.

I clicked his counter on his Raiders Turn site many times.

. He was an inspiration when I "lurked" around this site. I must admit, though, I like chasing the little details of this hat we all love.

Jason, you are on to something with the comparison, though. The previous home page of this site had some great hat analysis. I studied it for religiously back then. Thanks for the compliment, too.

LLS

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:59 pm

You know, RD, I would have to watch the movie again and take some notes. The ones that stand out to me off the top of my head are the Hangar 51, Doom Town, Junge Chase, and Nazca hat (pre-entering Ox's cell, different hat there).

Dave

jasonalun · Post by **jasonalun** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:05 pm

Michaelson wrote: The illustrations you've created are great! Looks like collector cards to me!

Regards! Michaelson

Thank you, Michaelson! I put a fair amount of work into them, though I wish I could have had more time to put into it. I was forced to rush some parts of it, due to time constraints.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:47 am

What happened to them? they seemed to have dissapeared

Regards, Geert

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:55 am

some moderator moved the pictures to a thread Jason opened called "What is "Raven Bar"? "What is "SOC"?"

but the thread disappeared

mcmanm · Post by **mcmanm** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:41 pm

I was looking for that thread too. Seems to have disappeared.

Matt