The Portugal connection...and some ramblings..

[Fedora]

LLS and I talked last week, about felt and hats of course. He had made a visit to the feltmaker that we use, and found out some interesting info, at least for myself. It seems that the fur used by our feltmaker comes directly from Portugal, from the same company that makes Marc's bodies. They have two separate installations. One, processes raw fur pelts into the fur used to make hats. The other side, uses this fur to make the bodies sold to various hatters around the world. So, it seems the fur that goes into both mine and Marc's bodies come from the same spot!

I know from talking to Marc, in the past, that two brothers run this operation in Portugal. And they come from a long line of hatters. So, it was quite a surprise to Marc, that the brother he deals with, wanted Marc to make him a hat! Which of course he did. From a special run of exotic fur felt, that the brother had made for Marc.

This just shows the hat world is a very small place today, compared to yesteryear. Only the strong survived the demise of the men's dress hat.

The last I heard, there were only 7 or 8 feltmakers left in the entire world today. 30 years ago, there was probably twice that many. And what impresses me about Akubra, is they are only one of a few that survived the demise. And they still make their own fur felt. Plus, they have not been bought out and sold so many times like Stetson.

But, I think I should add at least one more feltmaker to the lot. China. I know they have at least one, but may have numerous ones, not sure. Being newcomers, it will probably take them awhile to really learn and refine their feltmaking. Afterall, there is an art to it.

Through the rumor mill, I have heard recently that several US hatters are now buying felt bodies from China, as they cannot make them as cheaply as China does. Wages of course is the reason. I therefore have my fears about my own supplier. Very difficult to compete against China. Hopfully though, there will be enough custom western hatters that will keep our feltmaker open. I get the idea from talking to a couple of western hatters that they would never change suppliers. But who knows? I would not doubt Stetson Inc. sourcing from China in the future. I think it may be inevitable.

The folks that own my feltmaker is Stratton. The maker of military and police hats, and also Park Ranger hats. My feltmaker runs those bodies, for this hat, and another part of Stratton makes the hats. They also of course sell to the custom western hatters and a few of us dress hatters. But my feltmaker has been around for a long, long time. They would make the major brand overruns back in the 30's. So, the vintage Knox, or Stetson could have been felted by the same folks whom I use today. Each color that they offer in the dress line is a very old color. They took the best sellers, colorwise of yesteryear, and that is what they offer today, in their dress line of felt.

Just some ramblings about hats and felt that I thought I would share. One can never have enough information.

But to bring this to Indy, I would love to know whom H.J. used for felt, at the time of Raiders. And, I also wonder if they are still making felt? Or perhaps this was one of the companies that went under. I don't think we will ever know, with Mr. Swales' passing. I sure wish I could have went to England, during this time period!! To hold in hand, some of the Raiders felt with its peculararity.

While I ramble, have you ever wondered about the Raiders ribbon? Now, back to the days of Indyfan, there was an anecdotal account of one fan who talked to Swales. Some of the old timers may recall, this story said the Raiders ribbon was some old stock that Swales had at the shop, a holdover probably of the bespoke days of hats, coming out of H.J. That too is another mystery we will never know about. Who made it? As with feltmakers, many hatband suppliers went under as well. Anyone besides me recall this account?

From looking at the film, the Raiders ribbon appears to be different from what we use today. It appears to me, to be a different pattern, but the color is pretty darn close to what I use. I have thought that perhaps it was the same maker, but they changed material used. Perhaps it was a rayon cotton blend, or even a cotton rayon blend. I don't feel it is the same as what I use today. Fedora

[whipwarrior]

Yeah, I remember that account from the old Indyfan site. Swales, I believe, claimed that it was Petersham ribbon. Here is a post from the Indyfan forum back in 1998: http://www.indyfan.com/vault/forum/messages/4595.html

[beaverlid]

Are the beaver fur felt bodies taken from native beavers in portugal? If so what makes them better then other beaver furs? Or is it the technique they use there what makes them better?

[whipwarrior]

I also located the Indy's Diggs fedora page at the Internet Archive. The pictures no longer work, but the text is all there: http://web.archive.org/web/199902040209 ... fedora.htm

EDIT: I found an additonal thread about the Petersham ribbon: http://www.indyfan.com/vault/forum/messages/10777.html

[3thoubucks]

Maybe it's just massive Fuller's earth that makes the ribbon look different? The ribbon on the hat on the Imam's table, which is reported to be the first Elstree studio shot, looks a bit shiny to me, maybe they threw some more Fuller's on it after the shot. I've never seen Petersham, but I've heard about it forever around here. I think maybe the rest of the world is getting so poor, our labor costs will align with China, and we'll start making things again. -Thanks for the links whipwarrior- 1998!

[Michaelson]

LLS and I talked last week, about felt and hats of course. He had made a visit to the feltmaker that we use, and found out some interesting info, at least for myself..... Fedora

All I'll say is I wish you guys would stop coming to town and not at least ATTEMPT to say hello when you're literally in my backyard.

Regards! Michaelson

[DR Ulloa]

Very interesting, Steve. This has got me thinking, now. I thought your beaver fur came from Canada. I know I've read that somewhere. Are the beavers trapped in Canada and flown into Portugal or do they use European beaver? Since both you and Marc are using felt coming out of Portugal, what is the chance of both you and he using the same bodies? Could it be that his pounce job makes the hats just feel different? I've never seen one of Marc's hats in person, so I don't know what exactly they feel like so this is just conjecture, of course.

Concerning the hatband. I think it is more than likely that you, Marc, and John all use ribbon from the original supplier of the Raiders ribbon. But just as anything else, the trade isn't what it used to be and costs must be cut. That may be why the pattern isn't exact but the color is spot on. In my opinion, your ribbon is the same color and reacts the same way to light as the Raiders ribbon. I've never seen ribbon react in just that way and appear those same colors all at once. That to me is a good indication you have the right ribbon, just wrong year of purchase. Had you bought a spool of the same ribbon you get from your ribbon guy back when Swales got that ribbon, I am fairly certain you would see absolutely no difference.

Todd, PLEASE do find out! That is really, very cool to even think about!

Dave

[DR Ulloa]

Ah! I didn't know that. Thanks.

Dave

[BendingOak]

Can we define Petersham and grosgrain?

[DR Ulloa]

I thought Petersham wasn't real hat ribbon and had no edge, finish, or whatever you'd like to call it...

Dave

[WalkingEye]

petersham has an open scalloped edge while grosgrain has a closed bound edge. interestingly, many retailers/sellers of ribbon i've found refer to petersham as 'petersham grosgrain.'

[DR Ulloa]

Hmm ...interesting. I feel like Jack Skelington finding out about Christmas. This has blown my mind. I need to rewatch Raiders and go frame by frame with the close ups of the aht because I'm not sure about the finished edge on the ribbon now, though my gut is telling me that it is probably grosgrain. But, if Swales says it was Petersham then it probably is. Then again, we've heard stories before from other "original Raiders vendors..."

Dave

[DR Ulloa]

Going through the pics of Desi's hat and some screen grabs of the hat in Raiders, I can clearly see a finished edge.

Dave

[DR Ulloa]

Cool. Thanks. I don't doubt that he was "selectively cooperative." As Steve has said before, this is a business full of secrets.

Dave

[Michaelson]

You know, hind sight being 20/20, one wonders if all those years ago when HJ representatives were telling folks that they were getting their felt from 'South America', do you suppose they had someone there who was so geographically challenged that they thought Portugal was located in South America?

Nothing would surprise me anymore.

Regards! Michaelson

[Fedora]

Portugal just processes fur pelts. If beaver, those come from Canada, or the extreme northern USA. The colder the climate the better the fur is, at least for beaver.

On the Petersham, my understanding is it has the scalloped sort of edge, whereas grosgrain has the smooth edge. Hatband grade ribbon always has the smooth edge. The Raiders fedora, has the smooth grosgrain edge.

I highly suspect that the ribbon we use, is the right color, for sure, but I also think it is polyester. Yuck. I would bet the original ribbon on the Raiders fedora was a rayon cotton blend. As most good hat ribbon is. I have some petersham here somewhere and if I can find it, I will post a pic. You can clearly see the difference, that is for sure. And, for hatbands, it is quite ugly. Works better in the waist band of trousers, which is probably what it was intended for to start with. Where it would not be seen. But, take this with a grain of salt. But, to date, I have never owned a hat with the petersham, new or vintage.

Different patterns were used for hatband grade ribbon. You see it with course lines, running up and down, (cheaper quality) or the really fine lines which looks better to me. And you see some that has neither! But, only on vintage hats, at least that has been my experience. Also, you see different edge treatments, even with the smooth edged grosgrain. The more expensive the ribbon, the better edge treatment it has, which translates as a smoother edge.

I have rolls of vintage and newer ribbon from Schiff, an old ribbon maker, still in the biz. Today, they only offer the 705 pattern, for hatband. They used to offer the 7005 pattern which was a finer ribbed ribbon, and cost more to buy. But, prior to that the offered the pattern noted as "HB" on the spool. This stood for "hatband" and was made just for hats, instead of multiple uses. You cannot buy the 7005 or the HB from them today. So hatters use the 705 pattern, which I think is just a general purpose ribbon, and certainly not hatband quality.

Hatters are always looking for the good stuff, and I have bought alot of it from ebay over the years. And from B and L when they had that huge stock of various vintage ribbon. If dress hats were in vogue, better ribbon would be made. There is a big market for the hatband for western hats, and the variety is pretty big, but grosgrain is not used on western hats very much. So.....

I am thinking about going in with some other Indy hatters and get a special run made in the rayon cotton blend, with the HB pattern, and in the same color as the polyester that I use now. We have to buy 10,000 yards, so non of us should ever have to buy it again. Working with the current ribbon is a pain, due to striations that tacking down the ribbon on the bottom cause. It creates a line that runs upwards, and that was not evident on the Raiders fedora, so I know it was a different material used in the Raiders ribbon. Just trying to get back as close as I can to the original. Plus, this polyester stuff cost too much. 14 bucks a yard for a ribbon that should cost 50 cents a yard is crazy. Plus, it is polyester, more than likely. I would gladly pay a buck a yard for a special run, and get a much better ribbon in the same color. The weak part of my hats is the ribbon. It drives me nuts. Fedora

[DR Ulloa]

Ah, I know the striations you are talking about. I've never seen it on a vintage hat so you are most probably right. The vintage ribbon you sent to John for my hat doesn't do this (And it is beatiful by the way. You can check it out in the Penman Post 'em Up thread.) And by the way, thanks again for it, my friend. I'd love to see what that HB ribbon would look like on one of your hats or John's hats. Please keep us posted on this.

Dave

[beaverlid]

If Fedora considers the ribbon to be the weak part of his fedora I am curious if it is the same ribbon he used on the film hats. Or did he have some special vintage ribbon for those.

[BendingOak]

Thanks Steve for popping in. That's what my understanding if petersham is a unfished edge and not hat grade ribbon. Grosgrian is a finished edge and a hat grade ribbon. Clearly the raiders and all Indy hats ate grosgrain. It's funny but people get these two mixed up.

[Fedora]

No, no vintage ribbon on film hats. Same as we use now.

Oh, found out the ribbon we use is NOT polyester. Took it to a fabric store here and got an expert opinion. So, guess I was wrong. So, I like it a little better now!

[Local Land Surveyor]

_ wrote:

He also clarified the technically a Petersham is not used on men's hats, but is used by milliners (women's hats) and tailors.

I was conversing with a ribbon supplier earlier this week and she explained the difference the same way to me. She used the phrase "Petersham stretches so as to make a tighter fit to a hat." When I said I was looking for ribbon for a man's style fedora, she said "You need to use grosgrain ribbon. That was the finished edge type that is used on men's hat. She also said "You men don't wear these type hats much anymore, so the variety that used to be around is limited now." Petersham was an unfinished edge. Grosgrain had a finished edge. Her definition.

Hey . Trust me. The next time I go to the great valley of Tennessee, you bet I'll look you up and stop by. I'd enjoy a visit with the "knower of things". I am always up to listening and learning. If you'll permit.
When I went to the felt manufacturer, I was in awe of that drive. I had never been through that section of Tennessee. Dinah Shore and Davey Crockett land.

The owner took me on a personal tour of the whole facility. What an education. The equipment was like being around an operating museum. Very old, but still in use today. The operators and handlers were very busy with many stations throughout the factory. I saw the formation of the "cones of felt", the feltting process itself, the curing of the felts, the dying and the forming of the raw final bodies. Great to see this happening in America. I plan other trips for the near future. The owner was a fine fellow and the office staff are very kind. I have chatted with him several times since going into the hat making craft. He is a wealth of knowledge. At the time, they were making bodies for the hat used by the Homeland Securty Department. You could use those hats for a spare tire on your car. Us Indy fans would be completely puzzled at the amount of stiffener in these hats. No cairo stlye out of these hats anytime soon. .

Portugal is the processing facility tha beaver, rabbit and nutria (the three mainly used felts) pelts are sent to be defurred. The Portugal facility produces both fur and raw bodies. Pallets arrive at the American plant ready to be used in making raw bodies. They have a blending recipe they use to blend the felt to fit the needs of the final product. This blending process is the "secret" that each plant has. The same method that why Coke is Coke and Pepsi is Pepsi. Portugal felt raw bodies has their blending procedure. American plant hat its own blending procedure. Very similar, but each has its own amount "spices" to put a culinary spin on it.

LLS

[Michaelson]

At the time, they were making bodies for the hat used by the Homeland Securty Department. You could use those hats for a spare tire on your car. Us Indy fans would be completely puzzled at the amount of stiffener in these hats. No cairo stlye out of these hats anytime soon. .

IF memory serves me right, that felt goes to a company in New Jersey to be made into those hats. That's the same plant that Camptown hats are/were produced, but with MUCH less stiffiner.

Regards! Michaelson

[Fedora]

IF memory serves me right, that felt goes to a company in New Jersey to be made into those hats. That's the same plant that Camptown hats are/were produced, but with MUCH less stiffiner.

Regards! Michaelson

Thanks for the info. I did not know that. I never asked Greg where the hats were made that he makes the bodies for. This same factory of Ken's also used to make the official Indy fedora too. At times, the demand was too high for just one factory to make em, so they sub contract the hat out to numerous factories. Think the beaver CS official hat was made by Milan if my memory is good on that. Fedora.