The 90 degree turning theory

Post by **Ken** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:59 am

Would you not get the hat, turn it, then bash it, and then give it a dimensional cut using the turned bash as the centre?

Ken

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:05 am

Ken,

I think if you did that, you wouldn't get the right look on the brim. What really causes the side on the left to flap up and brim curl on the right is that the dimensional cut is actually in the wrong place.

When you put the hat on, it's forcing the brim to distort in a "fashionable way." I was showing it to some people and they were amazed at how the shapes on the brim were not present while the hat was off. The brim is almost flat. When you put it on, the hat almost shapes itself. It's an interesting trick

I want to talk about the crown for a sec. The crown probably wouldn't be affected. It would still react the same.

I still believe that you need the illusive untapered block to recreate "Raiders History" so to speak. I'm willing to bet the movie hat had the untapered block and was turned. There are 1 or 2 things I can't quite do to get the exact look on the front of his hat.

Stay Tuned...

Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:26 am

I'm almost convinced that Indy never had a demensional cut on the Raiders hat. I see no clues that lead be to believe that it was cut. It's a wide brim, and if you look at a hat with demensional cuts, it may not be as wide, and you might not see the difference, but I believe I prefer it uncut.

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:39 am

I'm almost convinced that Indy never had a demensional cut on the Raiders hat. I see no clues that lead be to believe that it was cut. It's a wide brim, and if you look at a hat with demensional cuts, it may not be as wide, and you might not see the difference, but I believe I prefer it uncut.

I believe it had a dimentional cut, but am a firm believer that the dimentional cut does not look good on all face and head shapes.

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:01 pm

Modern Jones · Post by **Modern Jones** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:16 pm

Pyroxene wrote:There are 1 or 2 things I can't quite do to get the exact look on the front of his hat.

Stay Tuned...

Pyro, two things that always eludes/frustrates me about the Raiders hat, that noone (I believe) has addressed yet are ...

1. The very front of the brim "points" downward. What I mean is, most fedoras brims make a right-angle out from the crown. The Raiders front brim goes beyond 90 degrees to create a "slope". Most brims we curl them downward to create that illusion, but it doesn't look them same.

I'll borrow from Cooler Kings post:

2. The side brims (including a rotated lid) angle up instead of being flat. Most of us iron the "snap" out of the brims, then try to "curl" them up again. The side start to point slightly down like the front. Then, the middle of the brim is where the curve happens. Not too close to the crown. The above picture shows both.

Kinda hard to explain. I'll work on a CAD drawing tonight and post to follow up with a visual.

I feel like 3Kbucks right now ... trying to get an excellent point out there using the written word. (I mean that as a compliment)

Regards,

Skip

Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:13 pm

Dakota Ellison wrote:

Well, that shut me up.

Dakota, where did you get that, and do you know how I could get in contact with this gentleman by any chance. Very cool letter, seems to put to rest that question.

Maybe we should do comparison shots between a regular raw fed, and a demensionally cut Fed. Anyone up for that game?

Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:17 pm

IndySkip wrote:
Pyroxene wrote:There are 1 or 2 things I can't quite do to get the exact look on the front of his hat.

Stay Tuned...
Pyro, two things that always eludes/frustrates me about the Raiders hat, that noone (I believe) has addressed yet are ...

1. The very front of the brim "points" downward. What I mean is, most fedoras brims make a right-angle out from the crown. The Raiders front brim goes beyond 90 degrees to create a "slope". Most brims we curl them downward to create that illusion, but it doesn't look them same.

I'll borrow from Cooler Kings post:

2. The side brims (including a rotated lid) angle up instead of being flat. Most of us iron the "snap" out of the brims, then try to "curl" them up again. The side start to point slightly down like the front. Then, the middle of the brim is where the curve happens. Not too close to the crown. The above picture shows both.

Kinda hard to explain. I'll work on a CAD drawing tonight and post to follow up with a visual.

I feel like 3Kbucks right now ... trying to get an excellent point out there using the written word. (I mean that as a compliment)

Regards,

Skip

Also, keep in mind he is leaning up aginst Marion, just pointing that out. But I do indeed believe you are right.

I would love to see a detailed CAD showing your theory, I look forward to seeing what you can do.

The one thing that is so frusturating about bashing a Fedora is that it seems to change from scene to scene, (obviously because of the super soft and felxible felt) so one must chose a single scene to model his/her fedora after.

Doc put it best...

"The other great, myster of the universe..."

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:27 pm

Cooler King! You have cracked the mystery of what makes the perfect fedora.

Also, keep in mind he is leaning up aginst Marion, just pointing that out.

Now, if we can just get Karen Allen to help out

...

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:28 pm

Well Cooler, if you mean the 'gentlmen' as in the individual who WROTE the letter, then you are out of luck as Swales retired--However, i think you were referring to who the letter was sent to.

Anywho, apart from that, getting a 'raw' fed and comparing it to a dimensionally cut fed is now impossible, as standard Federations all come with the dimensional cut (Deluxe too). However, someone (maybe even Ron) might have an old, non-dimensional cut hanging about the place. New ones are out of the question, unless by some chance Ron has some old stock still. Even then, I don't know if the new, dimensional feds have any other differences (ie block) that would effect the experiment.

Regards,

Farn

Bounty Hunter · Post by **Bounty Hunter** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:02 pm

Pyro - If you watch the making of Raiders DVD, fast forward to the scene where Deborah is talking about the hat. A few scenes into it you'll see ford sitting in the floatplane looking toward the camera playing with the hat off his head. Pause this and look closely. As you see his pinching the front, you'll also notice the brim is completely flat all around. When he puts it on he pulls the back down, then pulls the front down, then pinches the front more, and lastly takes both hands and curls the back sides of the brim up. I just thought of this when you mentioned your hat being flat when off.
I turned by PBMB about 1/2 to 3/4", that has a dimensional cut, and it looks fine from the sides, but not if your looking straight down from top obviously. The scene in the beginning as Indy pushes down the floor tile and the arrow shoots out, as you look straight down you can see the dim-cut is proportional to the crown. Maybe the brim was cut after he put it on crooked and bashed it?
Dylan

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:09 pm

The uncut Akubra would look much like the one pictured on the Main site.

_ wrote a thesis on how to cut the brim of a Akubra Bushman.

You can read it here. http://www.indygear.com/gear/akubra.shtml

Spatterdash · Post by **Spatterdash** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:36 pm

I'm extremely leery of brim-cutting.
Even with various grades of sandpaper and a razor-sharp edge, I can never achieve a truly smooth cut.
Hats off to those that can do it.

Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:02 pm

Farnham54 wrote:Well Cooler, if you mean the 'gentlmen' as in the individual who WROTE the letter, then you are out of luck as Swales retired--However, i think you were referring to who the letter was sent to.

Anywho, apart from that, getting a 'raw' fed and comparing it to a dimensionally cut fed is now impossible, as standard Federations all come with the dimensional cut (Deluxe too). However, someone (maybe even Ron) might have an old, non-dimensional cut hanging about the place. New ones are out of the question, unless by some chance Ron has some old stock still. Even then, I don't know if the new, dimensional feds have any other differences (ie block) that would effect the experiment.

Regards,

Farn

Farn, that's what I was looking for, Swales, retired huh? No worries, that's good enough info.

Well, after further experimenting with my demensionally cut Fed, I can see that it's a must. I tured it about 5 degrees and did a quick rebash with just my fingers - talk about instant results! There was a lot more arch in the crown, and a definiat reverse taper! So, another moral delima on my part solved!

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:03 pm

Dakota, where did you get that, and do you know how I could get in contact with this gentleman by any chance. Very cool letter, seems to put to rest that question. Maybe we should do comparison shots between a regular raw fed, and a demensionally cut Fed. Anyone up for that game?

The letter came with the HJ I bought from them in 2002. Seems like, with Mr. Swales gone, they would have to update it or add a statement that he no longer does it.

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:09 pm

Cooler King wrote: So, another moral delima on my part solved!

I know the feeling. Congrats.

...naturally, pics are a must.

cliffhanger · Post by **cliffhanger** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:19 pm

Bounty Hunter wrote:Pyro - If you watch the making of Raiders DVD, fast forward to the scene where Deborah is talking about the hat. A few scenes into it you'll see ford sitting in the floatplane looking toward the camera playing with the hat off his head. Pause this and look closely. ...Dylan

Bounty, check this thread out: http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5265. I agree, it is a good reference page for the Raiders fedora.

Peace,
Cliffhanger

Modern Jones · Post by **Modern Jones** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:48 pm

Cliffhanger, these shots prove what makes a portion of the brim that's missing from Pyro's awesome Fed!!! Very Cool!!! I saw them before, but didn't pull any fedora info from them other than how short the crown looked.

Stealing fom Dakota:
In this shot, it shows how he pulls the hat down right on the edge where the crown meets the brim. With a tight fitting hat, this would tend to stretch and smooth out the crease between the two!

This shot shows perfectly how he hand rolls the edges up. See where Harry's fingers are, in the middle of the brim? This creates the dip.

Very cool shots!!!

Regards,

Skip