stupid question about price

[ztmario]

Why are fedoras so much money? From what I've seen as far as the highest prices go, and from what I understand about how long they take to make, it would appear that some hat makers are getting over $100 an hour per hat, if not more. I understand supply and demand, I'm not a dummy... but since almost everyone that orders a hat is willing to wait forever for it, doesn't that mean the supply is unlimited? I just feel like if a quality leather jacket can be had for $400, why are some hats $1000? (and don't get me started about the price of whips...). sometimes I think maybe gearheads make too much money, and the vendors are fully aware of that.

[Chewbacca Jones]

It's not just supply and demand. Part of it is just taking advantage of people who don 't know better (for those really outrageous prices), and some of it is controlling demand (like Steve's price changes). I would also have to guess that many custom hatters are not small, one-man operations like Steve, Art Fawcett, Penman, and Marc. They have salaries to pay, rent & overhead, insurance, employee benefits, etc. If AB became, say, a 10-man team working in a commercial-zoned shop, plus a person handling communication, paperwork, and billing, profit margins per hat would shrink. Considering $350 for a beaver fedora doesn't leave much room for profit to a single man company, you can see where prices might start getting high.

[ztmario]

well, the AB deluxe for instance.. is like $900. Marc says it takes 9 hours to make one. this is a little more money than I make in a 40 hour work week. if I was buying it in a mall, I'd understand more, because most retail outlets want 45-55% gross profit margin. but straight from the source? if the only reason the price is that high is because people are WILLING to pay it, I understand... why make 100 hats for $450 when you can make 50 for $900... I was just wondering if there was more that went into it to make it be almost a grand.

and yeah I know exchange rates have a lot to do with it, but I don't know what stuff costs in europe, so...

[blueoakleyz]

$900??
are you sure?

[jlee562]

I mean, let me put it this way. You can go buy a chair at Ikea that will look awfully similar to a chair you might find in a high end (modern) furniture store. Functionally, you sit in them both.

What sets them apart? Materials and craftsmanship. I'll admit I have no insider knowledge as to how much the raw materials to make a hat costs, but I do know that the felt John and Steve use for their hats, is of higher quality than just about any fur felt hat I could pick up off the rack at my local hat shops. I know that when I ordered my AB and my Penman, that two skilled craftsman were going to create something specifically for me.

[jnicktem]

$900??
are you sure?

With the current exchange rate, an AB Deluxe would come to about $875.

[Chewbacca Jones]

Yeah, you can't really argue price when exchange rates enter play. That isn't fair. But if we assume that an AB Deluxe price is in line with Steve's AB, the price should be a few bucks higher than $650 (current website price). Some years ago, Steve was selling them at $250, which according to him barely went above the price of materials. If you factored in labor, Steve really wasn't making a profit. Just covering costs for a hobby. The price of hat bodies have gone up since, as well as the price of other materials. So, a minimally educated guess at the material costs to make an AB must be about $200 by now. If Steve paid himself $15 and hour for 9 hours hours work, that's $200 + $135 = $335 before profit. If he messes up a hat body, that's probably a $200 down the drain, so factor in maybe $20 a hat to cover mistakes. $355. That's without a mark-up, based purely on my customer-only knowledge of hats accumulated over 5 years. I'm sure my figures are off, but for illustration purposes, I think it serves well enough. Also, consider that $15 a week isn't so hot a salary these days, plus the level of craftsmanship, and the constant endeavor (and expense) of trying to improve the product (R&D, for you business majors ). And Steve handles all or most of the peripheral duties, too (paperwork, communication, purchasing, etc).

Now, Steve explained why his price his so high, and it's a good reason. If Marc stays in line with Steve's pricing, he'd have to charge the European equivalent of about $700 because he uses slightly better materials. facor in the exchange rate, and BEHOLD! $875 don't seem so crazy, do it? Does that mean I want to pay it? No. It's priced out of my budget for a single hat, plain and simple. But I know it's not a rip-off, either.

Does that 'splain it?

[blueoakleyz]

$900??
are you sure?

With the current exchange rate, an AB Deluxe would come to about $875.

Wow.
Whoa.

Weren't the regular ABs just $400 last year?

[darthbish]

$900??
are you sure?

With the current exchange rate, an AB Deluxe would come to about $875.

Mannn...welcome to MY world...
Aussie Dollar's exchange rate against the Euro brings it to a little over $1K AUS

AB Deluxes may be good, but that's wayyyyyy too rich for my blood.

[Michaelson]

This is sort of like asking why a Rolls Royce costs more than a Chevy.

They're only made from sheet metal, steel, rubber and some length of wire, and yet the Rolls runs over 6-7 figures, where the Chevy barely breaks in at 5. Why is that?

When you figure out that answer, you'll have the answer to this one too.

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

One way to bridge the gap is through compromise. You can still have an AB, it would be an AB Henry, which is 80/20 rabbit/beaver felt for $250. Factory made, yet good materials and quality. The Penman is another option. Same materials that make the AB is used to make the Penman.

[gwyddion]

In regards to the ABD: Guys, you wouldn't believe European taxes And from what i've heard, German taxes are the worst of them all If you add that to the costs of blocks, the costs of some of the finest materials, wages for Stefan (again with some crazy taxes for that alone ) and you get up to a hefty sounding price. How crazy are the taxes? If I buy a $400 hat from the US, after taxes and customs fees it would cost me 400 Euros

If you think Marc is making big bucks consider this: He changed his price for a couple of reasons, one of them being that if he didn't, He would never make enough money to be able to become a full time hatter and would still have no free time to spend with his wife in order to make ends meet. He still has a full time job and he's using almost all of his spare time making hats. Would he be doing that if he would be making $100 an hour per hat?

Regards, Geert

[beaverlid]

If you go back and look at some of the older threads and read the remarks and the helpful advice that have come from AB and ABD, you get a pretty good idea that these are fair and honest guys. I believe Steve sometimes tells us too much of the so called trade secrets because he loves his craft and wants to share it with everybody. Secondly, both AB and ABD have always been upfront about their costs and way they are raising their rates. Then throw on the fact that these guys are now legends in the world of Hat making, and the little fact of making "THE FEDORA" for "THE MOVIE" you get a hat that is, well, famous. You are getting the same hat, constructed the same way, with the same materials that were good enough for the man himself. I guess if we really look at it objectively, we are lucky they don't pack up shop and move to beverly hills and cater to only the rich that can afford any pricetag. I guess the easiest answer is in business we are all out to make money and do better for our families. If you offer a handcrafted hat that is made of the best materials with skill that is at an expert level you are paying for that. That is why off the shelf hats range from 50-250. It is because they mass produce them with no love going into them. Often what we end up with is a faded tapered hat that doesn't satisfy us so we buy another, and another and so on. Anyway it is my opinion only. I get this opinion by carefully reading the old threads and the history behind some of our best hatters in this community.

Beaverlid

[Bullitt]

Well said, Beaverlid!

[Michaelson]

Just to add a bit more.....almost all production hats (notice I sad 'almost') are popped out with the intent that if/when one wears out, just replace it.

With these customs, their intended to be worn and worn, rebuilt, worn again, and with the right treatment passed down to your kinds/grandkids for THEM to wear and wear.

The philosophy is a bit different, as is the care and QC in their creation.

Regards! Michaelson

[Fedora]

Yeah, ya know, my price increase was only for one thing. To bring demand down, IF Indy 5 comes to be. If I charged the same price of 250 like I did in late 07 for the film hat, I would find myself in this same backlogged position once again. I NEVER want to be in this postion ever again. It irritates customers, and it irritates me that such a long lead time is involved. The only consonlation to these customers is they are getting the hat for a relatively cheap price, and are willing to wait, for that reason. Thank goodness for that!!

Pure beaver hats have always been expensive though. Back when fur felt hats cost 7.50, the 10x pure beaver Stetson was 100 dollars! Its all about what fur is used in the hat. Rabbit fur is cheap, beaver fur isn't. If all of a sudden hats came back, the pure beaver hats would probably go for 2 to 3 grand. Why? Because the fur supply is limited on beaver, or would get that way fast if hats really came back into style. The demand for beaver fur would go up, more would be trapped, until one day, limits would be set on what a trapper could take. That would drive up prices.

The only other thing that would justify my prices, or Marc's is if you want what Harrsion wore, made by the same guys, by hand, you can get it. In my case, I am not young, so...there will come a day when I won't be making them. My blocks used for the film hats will go to Marc. The original blocks that is, which were vintage blocks. Afterall, I have the exact same piece of old wood that I used for Harrisons hats. And it is not a common block that you see everyday, these days.

Plus, you could never ever buy the Raiders bespoke fedora from HJ. It was a one time deal, for the first film. The CS fedora is the only real Indy hat you can find today, still being made. If Swales were still around, how MUCH would you pay for a real Raiders fedora? I know how much I would pay, and it is more than I currently charge for my piece of film history.

I would love to still sell my hats for say, 350.00 to all, but to do so would push lead times up to 5 years if Indy 5 happens. So, you price em, so you can still sell em with short lead times, which is what most folks want. Now, just any pure beaver fedora is never worth what I charge. Even though many hatters get that price, like Optimo. Several years ago a pure beaver fedora from Graham was 650.00. So, in that respect, I am still in line, with just other beaver hats from certain other hatters. The Josh Bernstein hat at one time went for I think 795.00. Just because Nathaniel made his Digging for the Truth hat. Indy is much more an iconic symbol than Josh ever was. So, you have to consider everything.

In light of all of this, I still have a special price for my old customers. The guys and gals who trusted me with their money BEFORE I got the Indy 4 deal. I don't announce it publically, but those folks know who they are, and all it takes is an email to get the special price. I don't have to do this, but it is my way of saying thank you, for contributing to me getting the Indy 4 gig. These folks talked up AB, which in the end had to help in getting AB chosen to make the last film hats. We were well known within the Indy community, due to these customers.

I don't think most realize the care and attention that we put into each hat that we make. We literally dote over each hat. We strive to make a hat that will last you for most of your life,(if you take care of it) because we use the best felt money can buy, today. And we use techniques that neither Marc or I will divulge, the little secrets that were held so close to the vest in the past. It might take 9 hours to just put a hat together, but it literally takes 4 days from start to finish on each hat. The 9 hours is just the amount of time you spend, putting the hat together. But the secrets involve those other 3 days. Our hats were so good, that even after all of the wet stuff seen in the Indy 4 film, there were enough hats left over to make another film, according to Bernie. You could never expect that from most hats available for sale today. That personally pleased me, and actually made me very proud of the hats we sent for Indy to wear. And it apparently surprised Bernie. I doubt he will order the number for Indy 5, knowing what he knows today about our hats. He won't use the Indy 4 hats, but I bet he will order only a couple dozen this time. Perhaps even less than that. And his experience with our hats speaks volumes about what we make. Quite frankly, it even surprised me, as I knew already this was to be a real wet film. I figured all hats we made would be used. But here I go rambling again, off topic I guess.

To end this, Marc and I always intended to make a hat that would be the only hat you would ever have to own, due to its ability to be reblocked countless times. That was one prime objective. The other was to get a better looking Raiders hat out there, as when we started, the pickings were pretty slim. Both of us are Raider fedora fans, bigtime. Today, there are several great Raider fedoras being offered here, but it was not always the case. Both of us were tired of spending big money on hats that came up short, and could not be reblocked more than once. How many HJs or christys would it have taken to make Indy 4? From my own personal experience, over the years, probably 12 dozen, given the amount of water in the last film. Bernie would not have been able to knock it out to open crown, and let it dry, and still have the same looking hat he began with. So with this in mind, how many of those brands would you have to buy in a lifetime to keep the head covered? And what would it cost you? I feel it is cheaper to buy one hat for 650.00, and then you get the bonus of having a hat that can indeed become an old friend, with all of the battle scars there to remind you of your adventures. That is our philosophy. And always has been.

Every now and then I get back a hat sold in 2004 for a reblock. I am generally always amazed and very pleased at the way the felt retained the original blockshape that I put in. I have never gotten back a cone. That speaks volumes. I cannot say that about any of the other brands I have owned over the years. So, I know we are doing something right. But at the end of the day, we are who we are only because we love what we do, and we love the Indy fedora. To be entrusted with carrying on the torch is something I will remember until I am on my death bed. It was the most amazing experience for us. Especially for me, since I was the point man, and had most of the direct dealings with the costume designer. And still remain in contact til this very day. I am still waiting on the call, that hopefully will happen that kicks off Indy 5. Otherwise, I would have already stopped selling hats period. I am only still active because of the possibility of Indy 5. If it does not happen, I will gracefully bow out, and just do reblocks until I get too old to do em. On my own hats of course. But I want to make the LAST Indy fedora, so here I am. I was told they would use no one else but me, so....I am stuck like Chuck. But, happily so. Fedora

[beaverlid]

As always Fedora, it was a pleasure to read your post, sir.

Beaverlid

[BendingOak]

Why are fedoras so much money? From what I've seen as far as the highest prices go, and from what I understand about how long they take to make, it would appear that some hat makers are getting over $100 an hour per hat, if not more. I understand supply and demand, I'm not a dummy... but since almost everyone that orders a hat is willing to wait forever for it, doesn't that mean the supply is unlimited? I just feel like if a quality leather jacket can be had for $400, why are some hats $1000? (and don't get me started about the price of whips...). sometimes I think maybe gearheads make too much money, and the vendors are fully aware of that.

I'm not making 100 per hour. No way, no way.

To answer your question in a nut shell. Supply and Demand. AB and ABD demand is very high. They are the highest demand hat makers in the world. They should have raised their prices when they knew they were going to make hats for Indy 4. Working as hard as these two gentlemen have worked since the news broke is just crazy.

You can't compare a handmade hat to a leather jacket made using a sewing machine. You just can't

Demand is high but the supply is low because these hats of Steve and Marc are all made by hand. There are hats made out there with higher price tags but they don't have the demand of Steve and Marc. Why are they charging more than the AB guys. Store front and hired help.

I can only speak about my own prices. I take every hat that I offer and break it down like this. How much does it cost me in materials and then how long does it take me to make that hat. Give myself a value per hour. I set my per hour rate way lower than what you are thinking. Way, way lower.

[ztmario]

Okay, I didn't know what a quality fedora cost to begin with, so that helped a lot. this thread is pretty much exactly answering my question. as far as the comparison to a leather jacket, I was just always impressed that wested made the raiders jacket and sold it as cheap as they do, especially in comparison to companies that DIDN'T make the original jacket and charged more. this is a hat thread, so I don't want to get into it, but my wested is a better jacket than some of the mall junk I've bought from wilsons leather, and it was the same price. AND it has all the film mystique behind it. I think their jacket = great bargain.

as another comparison, the price of david morgan whips--to me--is rediculous. its nice to have it because of the film mystique, but you can get a whip that's just as good for 1/3 to 1/2 the price. I think that's gouging and I don't think a vendor like that should be supported. of course, if people are willing to pay it, then that's what it's going to be charged and I understand that. I just wanted to know if the price of an ABD for instance, was reasonable for a quality fedora, or if I'm paying for the name. I now understand that it's very reasonable for a quality hat, especially from europe.

[Fedora]

I was just always impressed that wested made the raiders jacket and sold it as cheap as they do, especially in comparison to companies that DIDN'T make the original jacket and charged more. this is a hat thread, so I don't want to get into it, but my wested is a better jacket than some of the mall junk I've bought from wilsons leather, and it was the same price. AND it has all the film mystique behind it. I think their jacket = great bargain.

There have always been bargains for the Indy gear crowd. Akubra and Wested have always been so. And, up until we go the Indy 4 contract, our hats were the best bargain in the world. I mean, come on, a pure beaver fedora for 225.00!!! That is unheard of in the hat world. I practically gave them away! I was never in this hatmaking deal for the money, far from it. And many of my comrades here benefited from me doing this just for the love of the Indy fedora, but trying to make a much more durable one than we could get at the time, along with it being more accurate to the Raiders film fedora.

Today, my site price reflects the general market value of a pure beaver hat. But only because of the demand that came with Indy 4. If not for that, and that huge demand that the film brought me, I would still be at around 250.00. Maybe a bit more because everything has gone up!

My bucks say if Wested had gotten the Indy 4 contract, Peter would have went up too. He would HAVE to do so. Because face it, IF you can buy the same product as was furnished for the film, that adds to the retail price. And it should. I don't own a Morgan whip, but if I wanted what was used for the film, I would have no problem in saving up for one. Same with the Indy 4 jacket. I would have eventually bought one from Tony, IF Bernie had not given me one as a gift. No matter what he would have charged me. To own a jacket from the same vendor that furnished them for the film does add value, and yes, it may be in name only. But that is common in the way business is done.


The good thing is there are alot of hat offerings out there today for us. And in those, you can find one that fits your budget. This is great! Fedora

[beaverlid]

Fedora - You should go through your infinite number of posts on C.O.W. and print them all and turn them into a book titled "The Ramblings of a hat making genius." You have such good information that you give out on here that is probably worth money. Who knows it could be your retirement nest egg....I know I would buy a copy.

[Mark Brody]

One thing Steve didn't say (and you can correct me on this if I'm wrong) is that he's happy to finish more than one hat a day. I believe either Bink or Michaelson posted that a while ago. Anyway, even if you consider him making $100 a hat at his previous price (unlikely), that's still only $36K a year if he works EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR. That's asking a lot of anyone for a reletively small return.

[Hollowpond]

Fedora - You should go through your infinite number of posts on C.O.W. and print them all and turn them into a book titled "The Ramblings of a hat making genius." You have such good information that you give out on here that is probably worth money. Who knows it could be your retirement nest egg....I know I would buy a copy.

That is brilliant! I'd be up for a copy as well.


Travis

[Michaelson]

One thing Steve didn't say (and you can correct me on this if I'm wrong) is that he's happy to finish more than one hat a day. I believe either Bink or Michaelson posted that a while ago.

Yep...and you also need to factor in weather. Yes...weather.

With that last rainy spell we had go through our area (Steve is located to the Southwest of me), nothing dried on the blocks....so what should have only taken a day or two to dry took a week! He didn't lose any time, as he was able to work on sweats and the like, but until felt dries, no hats could be produced.

It's not all roses in the hat making business.

Regards! Michaelson

[Fedora]

Yeah, I don't like making hats when it rains like all day. I KNOW from experience what will happen to those hats.

The thing is, when making a hat, the felt has to be 100 per cent dry, in the core, before you can pull it off the block. Then, you have to be able to put the hat outside, once you make it, for the naptha based water repellant to dry. Can't dry those inside. Might get an explosion, or succumb to the fumes. And it takes around 5 hours for a hat to dry once I treat them.

One key to making a hat that will last without tapering too fast, is allowing the hat to dry at a natural rate, not forced. This slow natural drying shrinks the felt up, on the block in the RIGHT manner. That is the very first step in hatmaking. And, it is important. After it does this, you can shock the felt with dampening it with the hatters sponge, and ironing it with high heat, many times. Forget about the fast factory ironing machines that iron the hat once, or twice at most. I literally dampen, and iron my hats around 12 to 15 times, allowing it to cool between iron jobs. This take time, but IS the only way to do it. These multiple ironings, also shrink the hat up in height, so I block all my hats at 6 inches, then iron them until they finally shrink to 5 1/2. Makes a much more stable hat. This is one of the so called secrets I learned from an old hatter.

After you do your first pounce, this will loosen the felt up, so, you then have to hit it with the hatters sponge, and let it dry naturally to tighten the felt back up, on the block. Once dry, its time to move to a finer grit and do it all over again. My hats spend ALOT of time on the blocks. And I know, that the longer they spend on the block, the better the final hat will be, in quality. So, I take no short cuts, though it is tempting to do so. But, I can't do it. Won't do it.

There are other things I do while the hat is on the block, but that's a secret, I can't divulge. But, it is very important. So, the assembly time is for me, about 7 hours per hat, but before that happens, I have spent alot of time working the felt while the hat is still on the block. That is why, one day each week, I cover up 15 blocks with felt, as that is my weekly output. With me taking one day off, which I used to not do. But, the doc said I need to do so everyone once in a while.

The only time I work on my day off is if someone buys a hat at my site price. Then I work my day off, or part of it to expedite that hat, since I have a max 6 week lead time listed under that high price. It will remain that way until Indy 5 is done, and I will then adjust the lead times as time goes by, but I don't want to exceed 12 weeks after Indy 5. I think that 650 price will allow me to keep a rein on demand after Indy 5. If not, I will find the price that will. I am hoping I can cut down demand to where long lead times will be a thing of the past, and I won't miss all of the long work days either. And this will also allow me to ease out of hatmaking, because as time passes after Indy 5, the price will basically stop sales. There will be a surge of orders, then they will peter out. Perfect!!!!!! I will FINALLY use my head, and do the smart thing.

So basically what I am saying is that 650 price for now, it just an expedited hat. That will change with Indy 5.(plus, I will be able to charge Indy 5 the new site price, as they have deep pockets) And if you are curious, I think I have worked only two of my days off to make those expedited hats. So, it is working out well, for me personally. The price increase was done, only to cut down orders, so I can get caught up, and get ready in case Indy 5 does happen. Hindsight is always 20/20. The Indy 4 experience taught me something I SHOULD have known already. I just had no clue of the demand that would insue. But, also I did this to myself, as I offered the Indy 4 hat for 250, and even 225 for some here, when I should have went up right away to cut the demand. But, I was trying to give the folks a deal, and it bit me in the buttocks. My heart and my mind don't always mesh. What you want to do sometimes in business, may NOT be what you SHOULD do. And therein lies my problem. The transition from hobby to biz has been painful. For all of us. Fedora

[Travelsonic]

.
The CS fedora is the only real Indy hat you can find today, still being made.

I disagree for many reasons that would come off as smart*** or wise-alec, but in truth, to me at least, make sense.

The AB is THE Crystal Skull hat, hand down. It can be shaped to perfectly match any other Indy hat style out there. There is no reason to debate that point, just acts as a disclaiming point really.

But!

Magnoli / AB rebuilt HJs, not really the unmodified HJ hats anymore - besides being the brand of the originals (which really is the only saving point of the non-modified, right-from-HJ hats these days) still pulls off that ToD and LC styles pretty well, even though it will more likely than not, if not coming from a place like Magnoli, require more work/effort to reach that point.

If you want CS, and a really good quality hat that can take all abuse, go AB, but that doesn't make it the ONLY "real" indy hat, IMO.

[Bullitt]

I think what Steve is saying is that the AB is the only fedora exactly the same as the movie version, save for the liner. It's from the same blocks, it's the same felt, it's the same sweatband, etc. All the other hats out there just look like they could be movie hats, but they're not related, if that makes any sense.

That's why the AB's will increase in value over time, just like a custom 1980 Swales HJ would've been if he had produced them.

[Travelsonic]

I think what Steve is saying is that the AB is the only fedora exactly the same as the movie version, save for the liner.

100% undeniably true for CS - I addressed that at the beginning of my post.

(can't necessarily say that for ToD, Raiders, LC due to the fact that, for one, they didn't use beaver felt. )