Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

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Castor Dioscuri
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Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by Castor Dioscuri »

With a little too much free time on my hands, I decided to google whether or not to treat leather jackets (as per Tony Nowak's advice), and came upon something that stopped me dead in my tracks:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ ... 24966.html

In it were a few quotes arguing about the DANGERS of Pecards. Here are a few choice words:
Jeff Shrader wrote:Here is a reply that I received from a museum tech with the National Park Service museum system on this same topic a few weeks ago:

Dear Jeff,

Ahh Pecard’s, the much beloved leather dressing of military memorabilia
aficionados everywhere. Why it is so popular is beyond me, but I digress.
(And despite what Pecard’s will tell you, the Smithsonian does not use
their product anymore.)

First off, let me say leather is a really hard item to conserve by nature.
So many factors contribute to the characteristics of the final product,
from what sort of animal, how long it was dead, its age at death, the skill
of the skinner and tanner, the processes and chemicals used in the tanning,
to the finishing, the use, the duration of use, care or lack of, age, and
more prior to your acquiring the item. There are no real hard and fast
rules. Most conservators now agree preventive conservation in the form of
storage and support is most important, even in objects showing severe
issues.

In general, leather likes it around 65 degrees or so, and prefers the
humidity between 45%-65%, depending on a number of factors; including mixed
composition such as metal components. It is best to clean leather by
brushing it toughly with a soft, natural bristle brush and use a screened
vacuum to remove the dust and debris so it is not redeposited. The object
then should be fully supported with UNbuffered materials, to keep the
leather from becoming stiff in an awkward position. Leather likes it dark,
especially dyed or painted items. Hands off is preferred, because even
super clean, dry hands can leave oils.

Any good conservator will tell you that the code of ethics followed
dictates that no object receives any treatment that is not fully
reversible. Obviously, dressings of any kind are not. Dressings are just
that, dressings, and research has shown they do not actually restore the
leather in any way. Now lubricating leather can affect (in the short term)
the brittleness and therefore may be used sparingly if desired, but do not
use a petroleum based product such as Pecard’s. Pure lanolin is really the
only thing conservators will recommend. (You can buy lanolin quite easily,
be sure it’s pure). Dressings are only surface deep, and may for a short
time appear to stop problems such as the dreaded red rot, but in actuality
are only making things worse as the petroleum will actually contribute to
the disintegration of the fibrous tissues.

Cheers,
Sarah

(Red emphasis is mine)
For full disclosure, I should also come clean and confess that in my early days of collecting, I was a BIG advocate of leather dressing and Pecard's in particular. It was only after going through the museum conservation classes and seeing examples in collections of artifacts damaged or destroyed by misguided (though well-intentioned) tinkering that I realized the error of my ways.

JS
Jeff Shrader wrote: [The Smithsonian's use of Pecards] has been asserted [on the U.S. Militaria Forum] and in other places, but is absolutely no longer the case. It is true that some of the best museums have used leather dressings in the past, and a few still continue this practice. I even know of one very well-respected collector who has been known to slop used motor on painted leather flight jackets claiming a "better result than Pecards". I'm sure the resulting greasy leather rags were indeed soft, and he is very happy with his results.

I am also sure that some conscientious collectors have used Pecards and other leather treatments sparingly over the years, and are pleased with the results. There are also plenty of people who will take original Civil War belt buckles and shine them on a buffing wheel, and they are also pleased with the results.

ASSUMING that you do not mind turning light brown leather into very dark brown leather, and further assuming that the leather object you are 'treating' will never, ever come in contact with any other artifacts - wait - one more - assuming also that there is no brass or metal as a part of the object that will react with the Pecards to form verdigris... no, sorry, I can't think of one good reason to ever get that substance anywhere near an artifact that has any kind of value.

Since this controversy broke in Military Trader a few issues ago, I have talked to a number of friends and acquaintances who are currently employed in the museum field as curators, conservators, and registrars. I asked them all one question: "would you recommend using Pecards or any other similar leather treatment on artifacts?" Their first response was always laughter, followed by horror stories about items in the museum collection that are a mess and require constant attention due to what one curator called "Pecard bloom", a white waxy substance that rises to the surface of the leather like oil still leaking from the USS Arizona. Items so treated in the past can never be put in displays where they will come in contact with other artifacts (especially cloth) because they will stain the other items. They are also a constant source of irritation as over time they stain, discolor, and contaminate whatever display material or storage system they are in contact with.

Now the Pecards people and their devotees will say "well, if you've got those kind of problems you're just not doing it right." Really? Sorry, I personally am not interested in chemotherapy for my collection. If just a tad will (best case scenario) create the false illusion of a cure, but too much will absolutely ruin the item and potentially everything else it comes in contact with - no thanks.

I have no financial gain to make by posting this here. Quite the contrary - I catch tons of flak whenever I speak this heresy, and would rather avoid offending people if possible. I have shied away from controversial subjects on this forum because I am here to make friends and not alienate people. This one is too important not to speak out, though. I know that if you are already devoted to this stuff, nothing I can say and no parade of wrecked artifacts will likely change your mind. It is a religion, and those who worship at the sinister webbed feet of that collection-wrecking (though cute) little red and black duck have way too much invested to turn back. I do not wish to upset or insult them. My only hope is that a new collector will read this and make the decision to preserve his collection by storing it properly and not doing harm to it by engaging in non-reversible courses of action such as impregnating leather artifacts with oily substances.

OK, so I guess I do have something to gain here. If more people will abstain from using these products (or putting swords and rifles on buffing wheels, spraying lacquer on painted helmets, using brasso on Confederate buckles, etc.), there will be more good militaria in good condition available to buy and sell in the years to come.

I have purchased a number of collections over the past few years, and have seen up-close and personal the long term results of this stuff. The best, most valuable, expensive, and nicely preserved collections that I have seen and / or purchased all have one thing in common: NONE of them used any sort of treatment on their leather material AT ALL.
Having treated over half of my Indy gear collection in Pecards, this is naturally getting me quite concerned. As I was reading the thread, I thought to myself, "Well, it can't be all that bad! I've had some of my jackets for 2 years now, and they look great!" Then, as if on cue, I came upon this response:
jagjetta wrote: The owner said [a "P14 frog"] looked "fresh and soft" when he was done. After about 12 years, you can see the dry white "chalk" in all the cracks. That is the chalky bloom that emerges from leather that has been treated. It doesn't go away. You can't brush it out. More treatment "hides" it, but even the most oblivious will probably recognize the downward spiral that this creates.
...followed by this...
Minnvol wrote:I will add my name as a FORMER staunch pecard's fan. 20 years ago, I thought it was the best. Then, over time, the "bloom" came out, and some former VERY nice artifacts soon became "pretty good" artifacts. I don't like having to periodically retreat an item to make it look almost as good as it did when I first got it. I also feel weird when it comes time to sell something, and I have to tell the buyer, "you should get some pecard's to treat this periodically" so they won't feel screwed a few months down the line.
And this perhaps is the most interesting post:
jagjetta wrote:We all want to feel that we are "preserving" something. And as long as it looks good in our life time, we feel we did just that. Nothing wrong with that. There are no governing "rules" that collectors have to follow. If folks like leather that feels soft and oily today, that is their own business. The fact is, though, many dealers and collectors are refusing to pay full value for leather that has been 'treated'. That is the only 'fact' of the matter that I can point to with certainty.

The same thing happened in the daguerreotype world in the 1980s. Up until then, people believed that thiourea solutions could literally erase the tarnish of time. Then, a few scientists and museum curators (Grant Romer and Susan Barger come to mind) said, "HALT! The tarnish you are removing is also taking microscopic levels of the image." Furthermore, they demonstrated that images that were "washed" (as folks called it then), began to show a brown hue after several years. They proposed the NEW wonder drug of cleaning daguerreotypes with electrolysis. That was all the rage through the 1990s.

Then, further studied produced some caution...etching was occurring at the ATOMIC level! "HALT!" went up the cry a second time. Now, the photo-history world says, "no treatment is the best treatment."
Now, I'm not taking sides, but reading the above really made me stop and think.
Food for thought?
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by Hollowpond »

:shock: SLAP!Thats for blasphemy. [-X

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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by theinterchange »

The problem is, in cases like this, the person slamming Pecards COULD have an issue with the company rather than a legitimate case.

I say could because I can think of several companies which, if spoken about by me will get scathing reviews, which isn't the general opinion. cough* Apple *cough

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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by WhipDude »

Pecards must be doing something. I have yet to hear from any whip cracker that has had issues. Never had any cracking or dryness. No damage to the whips and they are aging gracefully. And the white substance rising to the top of the leather has been addressed by our own moderator, Bullwhip Borton over on the bullwhip forum. My other question is, the people who were posting that information...WERE they using it right? I know they mocked the Pecard company for saying that but, these only a few people out of the hundreds that buy it and have had no issue. Leather will age (darken or lighten) with use anyway, irregardless of Pecards being used.
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by whipwarrior »

As a Pecards user since 1998, I can personally vouch for the fact that none of my Indy leather has ever shown the slightest indication of a white waxy build-up, and that includes my Aldens, David Morgan bullwhips, and Westeds. Perhaps these adverse effects only show up on antique leather, due to the age of the fibers?
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by Forrest For the Trees »

Castor, thanks for posting this. As the future husband of an archivist/conservator, all the information you have presented appears to be pretty sound. Museum people know their stuff! I've heard rumor of such arguments against petroleum-based leather conditioners in the past, and I've often wondered. I've only treated one of my jackets with Pecard's products, and it is way to soon to tell what will happen, but I am viewing that jacket as somewhat of an experiment anyway. This does really support what Tony Nowak has been saying all along though, doesn't it? One thing I do want to point out though, is the information you posted is coming from museum-type people, who are in the business of preserving things for the LONG term. The pieces in their collections are not getting used anymore. Our jackets, on the other hand, are worn on a daily basis. I don't think a little leather conditioner is going to hurt in the long-run, so long as you don't over-do it. Okay, maybe in 50 years, the jacket may start to degrade a bit, but let's face it, most of us will have ruined our jackets through daily use by then anyway (not to mention ruining ourselves...). Just my take on all this...
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by Michaelson »

Interesting read. Thanks for posting an alternative view. :TOH:

I also do not agree, as no where is it mentioned how the so called 'white waxy Pecards bloom' is easily reversable, and it's been posted so many times here and at other forums it's funny. As usual, anytime an alternative view is offered, a LOT of information supporting the OTHER side of the discussion is conviently left out. It's the nature of the 'debate'. :lol:

That said, any item that is treated with ANY product, even lanolin, that is not used and flexed will eventually release and/or migrate the treatment product to the surface of the item that has been treated. Repeat, ANY product used...I see that was left out of the discussion.

I also noticed nothing was said about lanolin treated items that are unused for a long period of time will eventually start to mold in a damp climate. Hummm. Why wasn't THAT mentioned? :-k

Anyway, there are ALWAYS two sides to every discussion regarding the good and the bad of any product used on gear, and the Pecards debate is one of them. (by the way, Western artifact museums absolutely SWEAR by Pecards in the treatment and stability of all their leather artifacts such as saddles, bridles, etc......so, could it also be that militaria leather was originally tanned in a way (ie quickly) for quick deployment in the field that it defeats the use of Pecards? Something else to mull over as this discussion rolls along in the field.) It could very well be that Pecards is NOT a good product for stabilizing militia leather. That does not mean it's bad for items NOT military in nature. Like I said, other curators in different museums do not agree.

In reference to the final discussion in the quoted articles, it's long been known that if an artifact is kept in a complete climate controled environment, there's no need to do anything to stablize an artifact. The Egyptians have proven that in the Cairo museum by sealing their royal mummies in climate controled glass display booths. Many museums in the U. S. have done that for many years too. Nothing new there. All it takes in money...but when you don't HAVE the funding to seal your articfacts, we're right back to what is the right up product to use for treatment before your leather dry rots into a pile of dust?

I can only speak for myself, having used everything from pure lanolin, Letaps, Lexol, NeatsFoot, mink oil, etc etc etc, that Pecards has been the product of choice for anything and everything I've owned made of leather. Others can vary, and they're more than welcome to their own views.

Just keep in mind once again, there are always TWO sides to a debate, and a LOT of information gets left by the wayside when someone is trying to make a point to support their argument. ;)

Is Pecards the be all/DO all product for leather treatment? HECK no! I'm sure there's something better out there, but it's been the best I've used all these years, and that's talking over 20 years of caring for my OWN personally owned gear.

I'm just suggesting you be sure to weigh all the evidence before jumping on a final conclusion....and ESPECIALLY use your OWN personal experience with a product (or try it on a leather sample) and make up your OWN mind how it's going to work for YOU! That's what we're about here at COW. Don't just take someone's word for it. USE it, THEN decide. :TOH:

GOOD stuff! Thanks again! :M: :tup:

Regards! Michaelson
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by whipwarrior »

I was just waiting for Michaelson to weigh in on this topic. He does not disappoint! :D
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by Michaelson »

Heck, I'm waiting for leather_loco to spot this one. He's a member here, and VP in charge of research at Pecards. I bet he has a differing opinion... :-k :lol:

Regards! Michaelson
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by theinterchange »

Michaelson wrote:


Just keep in mind once again, there are always TWO sides to a debate, and a LOT of information gets left by the wayside when someone is trying to make a point to support their argument. ;)
That was my point exactly!

Randy
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by whipwarrior »

She may know much if... properly motivated.

Sorry, couldn't resist! :D
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by Michaelson »

theinterchange wrote:
Michaelson wrote:


Just keep in mind once again, there are always TWO sides to a debate, and a LOT of information gets left by the wayside when someone is trying to make a point to support their argument. ;)
That was my point exactly!

Randy
I know. I just rambled longer.... ;) Regards! Michaelson
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by WhipDude »

VERY good points Michaelson! :tup:
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by Chewbacca Jones »

Well, I believe that leather dressings have their uses. What follows in my mind is that the views posted above are from a very specific point of view, with particular concerns about leather that differ from our own. Dressings like Pecards might not sereve the use of a "collector" or museum conservator. But we are mostly talking about leather that is not likely new, and not intended for use and wear. That's miles away from the concerns of a guy who cracks his whip and wears his jacket in all kinds of weather.

To put it another way; In a box full of tools, you might have 4 tools that can get a job done. But you choose the tool that is best suited to the task at hand, rather than the one that's just sufficient. Tomorrow, you might pick a different one of those 4 tools, but it does not mean that yesterday's tool is suddenly not a good tool.
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by WhipDude »

Some other perspectives is that, Nowak has a good point. You aren't suppose to put dressing on your new leather jacket which is what it sounds like he is mainly addressing. A good quality leather jacket wont need that for many many years. Not only that, but it's hard to talk negatively about Pecards in general. On COW, we are familiar with mainly 1 product of Pecards. However, Pecards has multiple products for multiple leathers. That is also another thing to consider as the people who may be slamming Pecards, could have tried the wrong product and ended up with negative results.
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by tym »

Well, I think that both sides may be right. How one treats a new leather item would--and should--be different than how one stabilizes antique leather in my mind. Moisture loss and dry rot are major problems with vintage leather--problems that we don't see with fresh-out-of-the-box jacket or whip.
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by Michaelson »

I have also read here (and been told) regarding TN's jackets that he specs his leather to be tanned to actually break in/distress better naturally when left completely un-dressed, so he has another reason for stressing NOT using dressing on his products.

Everyone who has posted about it states that they only get softer and better looking with long term use and no 'mothering' of the jacket. That's why Tony always says 'Beat the @#$% out of it!' (He should use that as a trade mark. He tells EVERYONE that, me included! :lol: )

I'll admit, my TN has been the ONLY jacket I have not put anything on to date. ;)

Regards! Michaelson
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by Castor Dioscuri »

Just to follow up on this, I had emailed Pecard a few weeks ago with my primary concern- that their key ingredient, petroleum, softens leather by disintegrating leather fibers. A representative replied with a reassuring email, which I've included below:
Thank you for your letter and also your concern. Yes, we do use petroleum
and petrolatum ingredients in our manufacturing formulations of our leather
care products. We use what is referred to as USP grade products, which is a
highly refined material good for incidental food contact. This is also the
same grade that is used in the manufacturing of woman's make up. The point
is that it's a high grade of material.
When Pecard products are used in accordance to instructions there is no need
to worry about disintegrating leather fibers, what Pecard Leather Care does
is replace lost oils into the leather, bringing lubricity back into the
leather fibers and in turn the leather bundles that make up leather.
This makes the leather stronger, supple and more flexible.
This year we celebrate our 108th year of manufacturing, I don't think we
could say that if our products didn't stand the test of time.

Best Regards,
Phil Wadzinski
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by Digger4Glory »

Chewbacca Jones wrote:Well, I believe that leather dressings have their uses. What follows in my mind is that the views posted above are from a very specific point of view, with particular concerns about leather that differ from our own. Dressings like Pecards might not sereve the use of a "collector" or museum conservator. But we are mostly talking about leather that is not likely new, and not intended for use and wear. That's miles away from the concerns of a guy who cracks his whip and wears his jacket in all kinds of weather.

To put it another way; In a box full of tools, you might have 4 tools that can get a job done. But you choose the tool that is best suited to the task at hand, rather than the one that's just sufficient. Tomorrow, you might pick a different one of those 4 tools, but it does not mean that yesterday's tool is suddenly not a good tool.
I agree completely. It all depends on what the intended use is, and unless they plan to put my own stuff in a museum, I'm going to continue to use pecards.
Good posting though, as it was a good read! :TOH:
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Re: Could Pecards ACTUALLY be a BAD thing?

Post by Weston »

Yep, I think it has alot to do with how the leather is used. I don't think museum artifacts get to see the sunshine all that much, whereas a leather jacket or whip will be in it often, if not constantly. I love Pecards, but, my Wested chestnut hide had been stowed away for a long time as I was wearing my other jackets, and when I pulled it out it had a sort of waxy substance all over it. A day out in the sun, and constant wearing thereafter and it was gone, and has not returned.

I'm lucky enough to have a Pecards vendor within walking distance of my house. I think it is fantastic for active, working leather items.

Weston
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