The 90 degree turning theory

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:35 pm

I know this was an old post, but looking over the theory again it has interested me, and as I will be buying my federation shortly I am seriously thinking about trying the theory out my self.

How many of you have been using the 90 degree turn to get the Raiders look? Does anyone know if it would work for the Federation? Will it damage the hat and/or reduce its life span?

morgan

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:24 pm

morgan wrote: Will it damage the hat and/or reduce its life span?

I can't imagine that it would. It's intersting. The more I look at the hat, the more I believe it could have been turned or block crooked.

Pyr.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:58 pm

It won't hurt to turn it on your head open crowned, and look for the Raiders brim features, which might appear anywhere from a 5 degree turn to a 90 degree turn. If you like that, decide if you want to go ahead and bash the crown. However, I've heard that there's a wire in the hat? that could make turning it ill-advised?http://brokenheartsfixedhere.homestead. ... sTurn.html

Indiana Jess · Post by **Indiana Jess** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:28 pm

I don't think turning a hat with a uniform brim would hurt, but I've always wondered what turning a Fed would do to the appearance of the dimensionally cut brim.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:30 pm

It makes it lopsided

. Fedora

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:45 pm

I'll probably give it a go anyway just to see.

At the moment I'm having second thoughts about the Federation and now am seriously thinking about forking the extra £40 for the Deluxe. I want the hat to be my traveling hat so I want it to last for ages... but the federation is so cheap to many choices.

Anyway off the topic for a second, I was reading the original fedora states and Harrison Ford has a really small head only 58cm it looks a lot bigger on film.

morgan

Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:23 pm

I've found the pic to prove it all...

Atleast SOME of the Indy hats were were slightly turned when bashed. I'm nearly 100% convinced. I put my hat on and took a picture with my head in that exact same position, and the bow was only half as visable as it is there.

I'm starting to believe that the 90 degree turn could actually be the answer...

I'm going to get a Fed Delux sometime down the road, and when I do I'll bash a little off and see how it turns out.

Lindiana · Post by **Lindiana** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:13 pm

When I bashed my Akubra Fed Deluxe I made the mistake of bending the front of the brim down a little off center of where I put the crown pinch. I gotta say It came out perfect, It has the balanced look of Indy's hat but a definate difference from one brim side to the other. I'm very happy with my shaping attempt.
Lindiana

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:33 pm

I have found that my turned hat requires a bit of fine tuning whenever I wear it. It's the same as Harrison does in "The Making of Raiders". He folds the right brim way upwards.... I do this to lessen the slant of the brim left to right in the front of the hat.

.......(see that bump in the brim coming out of the center of the bow? Hear me now, believe me later- there is a piece of wire inserted in there. There is an unsightly flat spot in my brim in this same spot. I just put a crease like that in, and it didn't help much. I'm getting some wire!)

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:53 am

3thoubucks wrote:(see that bump in the brim coming out of the center of the bow? Hear me now, believe me later- there is a piece of wire inserted in there...I'm getting some wire!)

Be careful. I would hate to see you ruin your hat.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:24 am

I did it. Pushed a needle in from the edge as far as it would go, there's a ridge formed in the felt then I pulled the needle out a quarter inch and started a second needle in the middle of the brim with the first one still in as an alignment. Pulled the needles out and tried to insert a wire that was too thick and it kept poppig through the felt and tore it up a bit. I reinserted the needles in a new spot and used a thinner piece of wire- one of those twist ties with the paper burnt off. This is working out well. cotrolls the curve of the brim in this spot.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:05 am

3M$, you are joking-right? Please tell me this is a joke.

Fedora

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:22 am

wired huh... Thats a new one:)

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 4:38 pm

There are two ridges, evidence of the first attempt behind the one with the wire in it. Tore-up felt in the middle.

Bounty Hunter · Post by **Bounty Hunter** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:43 pm

3$k, I’m all for the exact Raiders look, hat turning, removing sweatband and just tightening the ribbon, etc,...but is that a Borsalino you've got in that picture? That makes me quiver a bit.
Keep up the testing though!
Dylan

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:58 pm

I'm happy enough with my 'raiders bash' fed :, it's all the hat I'll ever need.

Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Fri Nov 28, 2003 7:18 pm

Amen man...

Trying to get the PERFECT Raiders bash is impossible for these reasons:

1. You're dealing with pictures and film, 2D images that distort things, therefore you won't get it EXACTLY right...

2. The bash changed throughout the film so you basically must pick ONE SCENE to do a bash from. (Well, this isn't a reason, more like a trouble area, you'll be watching Raiders and there's one scene that looks good, and the rest don't match,

)

3. They used multiple hats throughout the film, all sorts of variations,

So with that said, I don't believe that you can ever have the PEFECT Raiders bash, but you can have an Indy bash that looks pert near darn good without having to drive yourself nuts.

I've spent a lot of time trying to perfect it, and I've got it looking good, it's not perfect, never will be, but I'm happy with it, and that's all that matters.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:14 am

I cleaned up the felt a bit. Next time I do this (On my Cury? Hey Fedora, I wasn't joking

) I'd like to have a 3 1/2 inch needle so I'd only need to use one. I'd clamp the brim between two flat pieces and guide the needle in straight. If removing the sweatband and tightenting the ribbon makes your hat look more Raiders accurate, then it does. but..the sweatband is visible when Indy turns to look at the spider on his back, when he says "Snakes...why'd it have to be snakes?" and if that is the little sweatband bow showing through on my "Raiders Turn" page, then The sweatband was in there during the fight by the flying wing, and probably was in in all the Cairo scenes.

jts1031 · Post by **jts1031** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 9:50 pm

The ridge that you are referring to looks most likely as though the brim were broken. I have a PB that has that same appearance and it's where the felt has been bent farther than need be when it's stiff and it kind of breaks the brim so to speak...

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 10:16 pm

I feel that the ridge is just where the brim was bent, or it came from shrinkage around the sweatband area. This distorts the brim in the process. I have blocked hats that got ridges like this when I pushed it down over the block, reducing the size of the hat(shrinking it). The brim is accustomed to a particular circumference, and when it shrinks a little, the brim reacts in turn. Just my opinion. regards, Fedora

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:33 am

I believe there's a MAST inside that sail. I always thought there was something "off" in this shot. #### thing looks like a KITE! The wind is blowing his leather colar up against his neck and not the brim up against the crown? . Trying to match that picture from "The Making of", I inserted the wire just in front of my ear, which seems to be the location here.

With this modification, my hat finally feels right, because it eliminates a giant bump in the brim in the same location, that's not in the Raiders hat, that I have been wishing wasn't there everyday for the last 9 months. There's no way I'd ever remove the wire, and I'm fairly certain that any future hat I get (and wear turned off center) will have the exact same bump in the same spot and will need the same modification to get rid of it, whether there was a wire in the Raiders fedora or not.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:19 pm

I am lost. Humor me. What is the purpose of the supposed wire in Indy's brim? regards, Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 1:23 pm

What is the purpose of the supposed wire in Indy's brim?

A new type of Goldfinger's butler hat?

Regards,

Marc

Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:46 pm

Marc wrote:
What is the purpose of the supposed wire in Indy's brim?
A new type of Goldfinger's butler hat?

Regards,

Marc

"Odd-Job, show Mr. Bond what you do..."

I'm lost as well, but I think he's trying to create the effect that the brim has when it's hit by the wind... Well, I just push it up with my hand in the mirror, looks just right to me, I don't see any wire anywhere.

Betty Ford center needs to add another Fedora wing, once for Hat 'bashing' (in memory of our dear friend Dan) and one for, well, 90 degree turn theories?

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:45 pm

The off center distortion in the Raiders hat creates 3 flat ridges in the brim. The most obvious one on your left here, and this is the point where the front of the brim flips down when you look at that side of the hat. The second ridge isn't very obvious, it starts at the front of the bow and radiates out at an angle more towards the front of the hat. The third ridge is on the far right and is the one the wire eliminates.

Here's a clear shot of the second ridge, that starts at the front of the bow

With the 3rd ridge gone, you can look down the length of the brim as in this last picture, and see practicly nothing but the front edge of the felt.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:08 pm

Understood, finally.

Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:41 am

Your results are amazing and your hat is still the most screen accurate replica I've ever seen. But there's no way I'm going to force a wire into the brim of my hats.

Regards,

Marc

Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 8:45 am

Granted, you have an excellent Raiders bash, but there must be a way to achieve the look without the wire. BTW, what kind of Fedora is that (I'm guessing Optimo), and would you consider getting a Fed or something like that to just try a plain steam bash and attempt to acomplish the same look? If you could do it, you would be doing a service to all Indy Gear kind...

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:23 am

I believe this is a PBBM, so it's pretty much the closest you can get according to materials used, felt thickness and felt quality (unless Fedora gets the Cury body as requested by him).

Because of the dimentional cut of both my PB2 and my Optimos, the hat turning theory don't really work for me, but by turning them by 5 degrees I get the same excellent results as 3k$. So it works on other hats as well.

I'm thinking of maybe reblocking my chocolate brown Optimo 5 degrees of center. That way I could keep the dimentional cut and still get the brims look as shown here.

Regards,

Marc

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:14 pm

The light areas are convex, the dark areas are concave. Those aren't dirty vs. clean spots. This is what is going on in my wired hat. The wire bisects the the area to be controlled.

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:21 pm

Looks like what I called problem on my Optimo.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:03 am

I'll be getting the DVD for Christmass and posting lots of "evidence". Maybe there's no wire in there, maybe someone soaked a line of Elmers glue in there. Yeah, an alternative to a piece of wire would be worth finding. Maybe just a bunch of stiffener. I doubt it's just a glitch in the felt, but I've made wrong guesses about the hat before. My hat is a PBBM 7 1/8, 5 1/2 inch open crown. I think the felt is too springy. The Optimo might be better. I would have ordered a Fed or a PB but there were months long waiting periods on both at the time. I don't have any experience with steaming, I'll leave that experiment to you Cooler King

.

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:40 am

This is a very interesting idea...the wire being in the brim. Your dedication to the perfect Indy hat is quite admirable and maybe a little scary too 3thou.

But it does bring up a lot of interesting ideas. I do agree with you on the hat turning theory, just from the placement of the ribbon on Ford's noggin its looks like it turned a bit too me. I dont know if there is a wire in the brim of the hat or not. Or even sure which hat in which scene would show this best. I definately don't think so in the Cario street scenes. In the Ravenwood bar scene I find the brim to be very interesting in shape, perhaps the most unique brim shape of all the hats in ROTLA. My newest hat from Joe Jr. has a brim shaped to match this scene and its very, very close to your frame-grabs and other pictures that exist from the bar scene, especially when Indy does his speech of describing the medalion to Marion making the shape with his hands, my brim looks a lot like that. The brim on my hat matching that scene has all sorts of little ridges and swooping areas that are very distinct and full of character. This leads me to believe wires are not necessary to achieve this look, also this is a Peters Bros. "bulletproof" fedora, however its the softest felt of my three PB hats so I guess I better figure that into the equation. Well enough rambling on my end keep up the hard work 3thousandbucks, I'm curious to see what you turn up! Great looking hat by the way.

Best Regards, Brett

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:07 am

Cooler King wrote:...would you consider getting a Fed or something like that to just try a plain steam bash and attempt to accomplish the same look? If you could do it, you would be doing a service to all Indy Gear kind..

Well, I took my Akubra Federation Deluxe that I have. It's been my dress hat that has seen more shelf time than all of my other hats. When I received it, I bashed it without steam and was happy with the results but never satisfied.

So, this weekend, I took the bash out and lightly misted and flattened out the brim. Put the hat on and started to turn. I was very pleased with the results. Here are some photos

(The back of the hat appears tapered but it is not. See the photos near the end.)

I have found that when you turn it and bash it;

1.) The brim curl appears as we see on screen
2.) The crown, when bashed, looks very stovepipe
3.) The classic swoosh appears over the right ear.

I too have a hard time believing it. The hat fits a little better. Before it was too big and now it a little more tension in the sweatband that holds it to my head. All the taper from the crown disappeared. Both from the front and the back.

What I can't get over is holding it my hands, it looks like it was bashed all wrong.

When you look closely at the hat, you can see the old crease.

I have tried the same thing with my PB custom but it doesn't work. Joe Jr's di-cut is too good. The brim only works for the hat in that one direction.

I have no doubt that you can achieve the Raiders look with the proper block like Fedora has done. But the brim wouldn't come into play as easily. It would require tweaking like we all have experienced.

This theory may explain why in some angles of Raiders, the hat appears to have a significant amount of taper and then HF turns his head and it's gone.

This felt is a little thick but it did work The PBBM or Optimo would probably be a really close match to making an identical copy.

As far as the wire...I am undecided. I will need to watch the movie more.

All in all, I am totally satisfied with the results. Thanks to 3KB for all your hard work. For me, this is the best home bash I could ever hope to accomplish.

Cheers,
Pyro

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:24 am

WOW!

That is QUITE the hat, Pyro!

I'm assuming by looking at the liner that you simply bashed it in line with the Akubra writing, correct?

Looks great, definatley something worthy trying if your fed is re-bashable!

Regards,

Farn

Cooler King · Post by **Cooler King** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:14 pm

Now Pyro, which way did you turn it and how much (Sorry if I over read it if you already said).

I'm very impressed! I believe we can all achieve the perfect Raiders bash with a Fed, we just need details. My question is, how much of a turn did you give it, and how did you get the center dent so low in back without tapering the front?

Very cool, excellent job!

Bounty Hunter · Post by **Bounty Hunter** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:49 pm

Cooler King, all those questions you asked can be found on 3$k's website
http://brokenheartsfixedhere.homestead. ... sTurn.html
I'm not sure how much Pyro turned his (great looking Fed by the way Pyro

), but all the details can be found on the site.
Check it out, very informative along with much insight.
P.S. 3Thoubucks, I never found out, what kind and size of ribbon do you have on your PBBM? Looks darker than stock ribbon.
Dylan

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:11 pm

Cooler King wrote:Now Pyro, which way did you turn it and how much (Sorry if I over read it if you already said).

I'm very impressed! I believe we can all achieve the perfect Raiders bash with a Fed, we just need details. My question is, how much of a turn did you give it, and how did you get the center dent so low in back without tapering the front?

Very cool, excellent job!

I turned it to the right or clock-wise bringing the bow closer to the front. It's turned about 1½ - 1¾ inches depending on where you measure before the brim started to distort too much. Which is good because I didn't want it to become noticeable. I guess if you have to turn it too far to get the effect, you could just undo the ribbon and move it back into place and re-tack it.

For your second question, I will try to answer this as best as I can. 1.) I use my right thumb and middle finger on the inside when working the center dent. That and the fact that I am pulling the felt in a direction where the sides do not naturally want to taper helps. 2.) The side bashes help keep the sides untapered. Sometimes it will result in the reverse taper effect. 3.) My head helps keep the sides straight. When I put the hat on, I give a slight tug on the brim near the rear of the hat. That usually snaps the sides in shape.

Let me know if this didn't answer your question.

Pyro.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:42 pm

All I can say is, 3M$ is a genius.( I suppected this after seeing his duct taper Raiders fedoras) He thought outside of the box, and hit the nail on the head. As far as I know, this observation is his. I would have never thought, or observed that one particular look of the Raiders fedora was due to it being turned before it was bashed. This would be easy to do with the thin felt of that fedora, not noticable as it would be with a stiffer hat. Ouch! The wire theory on the other hand seems to be over the top. It would be easy to have a soft hat on slightly off center when it was styled, a happy accident, but inserting a wire into the brim just seems sorta farfetched. Fedora

Jsoftz · Post by **Jsoftz** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:43 pm

Wow, Pyro, the side shot looks fantastic. It really worked for you. I think i'm going to get a Deluxe and try it on myself.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:10 am

Someone finally turned one, got good results and posted pictures. Pyroxene, your hat is SO.. RAIDERS Of The LOST ARK! And you turned it an inch more than Indy's or mine. You said it was kind of a loose fitting hat. If it had been tighter, you probably wouldn't have turned it that much. Then again, it doesn't look like it needs a piece of wire, or for the right side to be folded against the crown to eliminate too much side to side tilt in the front of the brim. Question- does it have a dimensional cut? (I noticed you said the PB dime cut couldn't be turned with much sucess) **** Fedora, someone said they were turning their hat to get the Raiders look at Indyfan.com years before I even owned a fedora. Gorak turned his hat before me. I remember you tried it, but got wild brim distortion (That's when wire comes in handy, maybe.

?)****Bounty Hunter, the ribbon on my hat is 1 1/2 inch cotton blend I bought at a store. Too heavy duty to be ideal. It was a fairly dark brown, but I colored it before I assembled it, with a giant Pilot felt tip black pemanent marker.....Oh, Pyroxene, I wouldn't sweat that old front pinch. I turned my hat right out of the box, and put a couple "old" front pinches in later- I wonder if that's a valid theory? http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

Indycraze71 · Post by **Indycraze71** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:13 am

Absolutely fantastic job on that hat Pyro! Looks great!

Brett

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:15 am

So Pyro, if are you gonna do this hat turn on your new Mercury? I'm guessing not, but I had to ask.

P.S. If you scroll rather quickly through the pics of Pyro's hats above, it gives the appearance that one of the hats is squashed. Took me for a loop and I went back and realized it wasn't squashed but if you scroll really fast it looks squashed...I just woke up so maybe my eyes were just playing tricks on me. But it looked cool!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:24 am

3M$ wrote: " Fedora, someone said they were turning their hat to get the Raiders look at Indyfan.com years before I even owned a fedora."
Hmmm. I sure don't remember it. You say Gorak did it prior to you? I think I am gettin oldtimers disease.

I did try it, with a dimensional cut hat that was 2 3/4 front and back 2 1/2 sides. Perhaps I turned it too much? Or maybe you can't have the 1/4 inch variance in the cut. Maybe the 1/8 difference is what you must use. I don't know. At any rate, I think it is pretty much accepted now that at least one of the Raiders fedoras was turned. regards, Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:58 am

For those with the dimentional cut (especially those with their own blocks): you can get the same results on you current hat if you block it 5 degrees of center. Then you'll still have the shorter part of the brim on the sides.

Regards,

Marc

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:44 am

Indiana Texas-girl wrote:So Pyro, if are you gonna do this hat turn on your new Mercury? I'm guessing not, but I had to ask.

I tried it with my PB custom that I wear everyday. But, Joe's cuts are done in such a way that they only look good in that one direction. Sombody could prove me wrong.

3thoubucks wrote: Pyroxene, your hat is SO.. RAIDERS Of The LOST ARK!

I have you to thank.

Spatterdash · Post by **Spatterdash** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:44 pm

Hi,

Look, I just had to say this. I've stared tornados down at least 7 times in my life, I've been in old English and Irish castles after dark, I have two earthquakes in California under my belt, and I grew up with a decrepit cemetery right outside my bedroom window...

and that hat is scary.

Seriously, how many of you have sat in front of a mirror trying to get that Raven Bar/ Cairo Street bash just right, knowing it can't be too difficult yet it eluded you time and again?
Hands?

This is important enough of a discovery that it ought to have it's own FAQ on the main site, IMHO.

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:23 pm

I tried it with my PB custom that I wear everyday. But, Joe's cuts are done in such a way that they only look good in that one direction. Sombody could prove me wrong.

3thoubucks has a PBBM. Does Joe Jr. cut these down or do they come from Borsalino with a dimensional cut?

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:45 pm

If I remember correctly, he ordered his with out any cut. The brim was round all the way around.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:34 am

My hat is uncut. I think you have to request uncut, otherwise Joe cuts it. I've been skeptical that there was a dimensional cut on the Raiders hat, but not feeling certain about it. I've come close to sandpapering in a dimensional cut on impulse a few times. Pyroxene's hat looks so good, I'm wondering if it isn't partly because of a turned dimensional cut?

The 90 degree turning theory

The 90 degree turning theory

Re: The 90 degree turning theory