Kangaroo hide utilization?

[Marhala]

Hi. I recently got comfortable enough with all my techniques (cutting with the thumbnail, paring, plaiting, etc.) to start working with kangaroo hide. I picked some hides from the post office on Tuesday, and of course, was planning to make some whips with it. I've been making stockwhips (sorry guys, no bullwhips yet ), to play a little with balance and weight distribution, so I'd like to keep on that track for a little longer.

I got three drum stuffed, veg tanned hides, in tan color.

I want to make at least 3 half plait handle, 12 plait 6ft thong stockwhips. I made some calculations and found out that I may need somewhere around half the hide (ALL roo hide) for each and every part of them. That would leave me with almost half a hide (and the best part from it) unused.

So the question is: What other kind of projects do you think would be worthy of making? I was thinking about making some dog leads, but I ignore if it is common to make these leads using the best part of the hide, which I'd rather use for cutting the strands nearer the point. I thought about making belts, but my hides are the heavy ones (about 1mm thick), and perhaps this thickness is too much for a braided belt (or for stockwhips for that matter).

I have a long handled whip, a lunge whip (one of those crappy cheap whips with the plastic thong) and I was thinking about playing around with making some light thongs for it to see if I can improve it somehow, and again, play with resilience, balance and weight distribution.

I'd really appreciate any contribution on this subject.

Thank you all for your attention,

Aldo.

P.S. Have a nice weekend.

[winrichwhips]

How large are the hides you bought?

I guess with the style of stock whip construction I learned from Chris Barr, if the hide is in the 60 dm2 range (as a lot of them are these days), I'd end up using the whole hide almost for one stock whip.

Also, there will probably be some stretchy spots and some scars and other stuff that you have to cut around, increasing the amount of leather used to make each whip. I remember once I tried making a long kangaroo bullwhip using exact calculations, which didn't take into consideration the stretch of the leather, and the whip ended up a mess. Now I usually cut my strands wider than I need them to be to make sure they stretch down to the width I need.

If it does turn out that you've a lot of leather left over, you might consider taking the three pieces left over and make a bullwhip or a snake whip. Or a plaited belt.

-Adam

[Marhala]

Hi Adam. Thank you for answering promptly. I really enjoy your videos on Youtube, by the way.

Yep, the hides are 56-59dm2 from Packer Leather.

My construction would be: 3 teardrop cores, plaited belly, bolster and overlay. Half plait handle with doubled strands and TH and keeper.

And concerning scars and stretch... I almost forgot!!! Perhaps I should cut strands to test for stretch, and only then evaluate how to cut the whip out.

So... is it a big deal if I cut the inside (bellies, bolsters, cores) of the whip with scarred skin? I thought that because of the width of the strands (for the belly) and being part of the inside, it didn't matter much. I thought the best was used for the thinner overlay strands.

Also, I understand your advice would be to concentrate on carefully cutting out the whip, so as to get it the best possible and then if any leather is left over, that would be a plus. Right?

All the best,

Aldo.

[deadringer]

G'day Aldo,

0.6 would be the min. for a 6ft 12 plait all roo construction. You won't have to much left over. This would be pretty much standard for most whipmakers in Aus.

Yes, cut all the wider parts of the whip from the outside of the hide starting with your core then the bolster then your belly set this way you use all the stretchy part of the hide in the less critical areas . The scaring will only be a big problem if it goes all the way through the hide just be aware of where they are when you start plaiting.. The superficial marks on the hair side won't be too much of a problem on the inside of the thong.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Chris

[Canuck Digger]

Though I am not very familiar with stockwhips, I do have some experience with bullwhips, though less than others here, and itù's been my experience that pockmarks and scars tend to tear if used for plaiting. You may cut your strand wide (especially for a belly) but if there is a mark on the edge of your strand for example, it will thin out and eventually start to tear and once that starts, there is nothing stopping it from tearing all the way through the entire strand and width won't make much difference there.

You can use the less-than-perfect leather for parts which won't undergo as much stretching like a core or a bolster, but do try to limit it to that.

And you stretching of your strands should be firm enough that it will test out any weak spots in your strands, so you don't end up breaking any during plaiting. Don't yank or jerk the strands when you stretch them, but your MUST pull enough so that it is a realistic test of how much pull you are going to do during plaiting. If you find yourself restraining your pull because of where you cut the set from, then you already have your answer; you cut it across a bad area of the hide. Don't be afraid, even a broken strand can be useful and chances are it won't break anywhere else and can always be used for something else: a turk's head knot lace or even a plaited strand on another project that needs shorter strands for the first belly... But don't be too gentle; if it's gonna break better during the stretching than during plaiting...
Cheers,

Franco

[Marhala]

Thank you all for your feedback, which I have found quite useful.

Chris, thank you so much for telling me the order in which to cut every part of the thong. I was a bit curious about the sequence for cutting them out. I found that the section across the legs and tails fits the length of the strands for the handle.

Franco, thank you too, especially concerning testing strands by pulling. I was wondering about that precisely. Are you psychic or something, ?

Ok, so stretchy, weak parts, are used for cores and solid pieces not used for plaiting. Better leather, is used for plaiting.

So far, I've stretch the flanks, and boy, do they stretch. Tomorrow I'll trim the edges and cut the four strand sets to test the different areas of the hide.

I'll keep you informed, hopefully, with some pictures to come.

Thank you all again for such important advice.

Aldo.

P.S. Can't help but feel like a doctor trying to take the best care of my patient during surgery. I'm a bit nervous.

[Canuck Digger]

Aldo, I may have written too harsh a comment initially; the stretchy outer parts ARE used to trim down the skin. The only thing is you have to be able to discern which stretchy bits are adequate for plaiting and which aren't. Heavily marked or scratched areas usually end up breaking during stretching with the resulting waste of the rest of the strand which may have been cut from quite good leather. You will waste less leather if you take out the really bad bits straightaway rather than be over zealous with your cutting and try to use every single inch of leather. Some hides are just better than others. The idea is to learn how to "read" the leather and cut out your whip according to each hide.

Hope this helps,


Franco

[Marhala]

Thanks Franco. I think now it's clearer to me. I understand what you say. Anyway, I think it will be inevitable to avoid mistakes. So I'll have to learn from them. Not to say I'll try to make the least of them.

Can't wait to slice that hide.

All the best,

Aldo.

[Marhala]

So far... I've cut two four strand sets from one back leg, to beyond the upper flank. I cut them wider and stretch, pared/skived and plaited the first one.

My impressions:

1) None of them broke, eventhough I purposely cut through scars (me thinks ).

2) They stretched down to about 3/4 of the original width (cut wider to compensate a little, +1/3).

3) The hide is extremely strong. 4mm wide strands got my pinkies sore!!! that I only got from plaiting thick cowhide.

4) I put very little soap and plaited very tightly. The braid ended up very dark and you could see how the fat would ooze from leather while I plaited.

5) I finally understood the meaning of "straigtening" the hairside and paring the flesh side. It was SO easy! And fast. I think I had never skived so well!!!! I just pulled ("leaped from the lions head") and this action got me very even width strands...

Next weekend I'll start cutting the whip out, so stay tuned.

All the best,

Aldo.

[louiefoxx]

Isn't paring kangaroo soo much easier than cow!!

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

[Marhala]

Isn't paring kangaroo soo much easier than cow!!

Louie
http://bullwhips.org

"Dr. Jones, you will soon become a TRUE... BELIEVER...!!!" (evil laughter follows)

Yes, I now understand the power of the rocks... I mean, kangaroo hide!

[Will_Morgan]

Hi Aldo!

We make our belts from the centers of skins used for whipmaking and don't think that makes too thick a belt, we pare the strands to make them fit in more snugly but don't take any thickness off. Of course it helps if you are making a series of whips so therefore have a series of centers in case one isn't enough. Our round braided style hat bands can come from the center of heavies, but our flat hat bands come from medium thickness skins. Another use is knot lace for the whips. Knot lace can also be taken from the outside of the skin but you have to accommodate stretch by cutting thicker in the stretchy areas which can take a while to perfect.

[Marhala]

Thank you for your observations on hide utilization, Will. Good to see you around here too!

I have cut 2 four-strand sets from the tail area, and have now compared the hide to the other two. HOW SMALL HAS IT GOTTEN! I don't really know for sure if I should use that hide for whipmaking (not sure if I'll run short of material, or if I should just stick to cutting SOME of the whip, not ALL of it). Still, I'm tempted to make a belt or a doglead. There are some very interesting projects in Braiding Fin Leather!

I'll keep you informed on any more work done.

Aldo.

[Canuck Digger]

Aldo,
if the strands stand up to the stretch test, then you're probably good to go.

Franco

[Marhala]

Aldo,
if the strands stand up to the stretch test, then you're probably good to go.

Franco

Hi Franco, thanks, good to know. I must add: If the strand was cut very narrow, it may break... But I have just gotten one broken strand, up until now, so I think that's very good.

All the best,

Aldo.

[Canuck Digger]

Aldo, 99% of all the leather you will ever cut will shrink a bit, sometimes a lot, when stretched. That's just the nature of the material. Once stretched, the strand has become denser and can then be re-sized to a narrower sized strand to fit your project without as much fear of it breaking during plaiting. Of course if you cut your strands across scratches and tick marks, you are seriously compromising the integrity of the leather because it already has some imperfection to begin with. When I get a new hide, the first thing I do is roll it out and study it; where are the problem areas and so on. I then mark out with a pen the areas which must absolutely not be used. On black leather I use a silver ink pen which works really well and on any other color I just use a normal black pen. I don't use a pen which has a very free-flowing ink because I don,t want the ink to seep to the adjacent leather which may be very good and useful. You don't have to mark out the leather, you can just cut around the bad areas, but if you do mark it, try to be thrifty about it, but not so much that you would include bad leather. I do this for two reasons; first because I don't trust myself to notice each and every bad bit 100% of the time as I'm cutting and this is an easy visual cue. Secondly because it gives me an overall view of the leather in these terms and allows me to better evaluate how I will make use of a particular hide. Sometimes the outside of the hide has so many tick marks that very large areas must be taken out before any good lace can be cut. This cutting need not be wasteful, it can be used for a core or a bolster or a wear leather or a filler (or fish), and seeing it marked out (ideally on the back of the hide), lets me see this more clearly. You develop tools and techniques that suit you and these become part of how you work. Sometimes they are unique to you and your needs and other times they are more universal, but no one works exactly the same way.
Cheers,

Franco

[Marhala]

Franco, thank you as always for such detailed comments. I find very interesting your idea on marking the hide. I think I'll give it a try because I can't keep track of all the blemishes in the hide. I may avoid most, but sometimes, in the heat of flowing with the moment, I tend to forget some of these and cut through them. Unfortunately I didn't have much time to work this weekend on the whip, but I went to the Anthropology Museum to take some pics of Mexican whips for Mr. Morgan. Hope he likes them.


Thanks again,

Aldo.

[Marhala]

Hi all. I finally had some time off work to cut the whip out. Yesterday I finished the overlay which was the last part I cut. I will post some pictures soon for all those who are interested to have a look.

All the best, and thank you for your time and help.

Aldo.