Need expert sizing advice...

dzukunft · Post by **dzukunft** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:52 pm

So I've been reading...and reading...and reading... Seemingly way too many posts for something so simple as a jacket. In any event I think I've settled on a GB Expo in goatskin, mainly because I'm getting this jacket to be my bosom companion in the African bush and South American jungle - NOT for costuming. True story. Need something to stand the test of time, and the last thing I need to worry about are undone seams and the like.

With that said, I am 6'5" and 195lb (athletic build). Typically, I wear 44L in suits, with quite a bit of material taken in at the sides due to my broad shoulders. The one thing I've read about GB is that they tend to be cut for more hefty individuals and that one should size down. In my case, I suppose that would mean a 42L. However, the thing that concerns me is that I have a long torso and arms. Thus, I don't want the sleeves or the back to ride too high if I go down to the 42L. I called to inquire with GB, but the salesperson was not terribly helpful. So I throw the question to the true experts...

Height: 6'5"
Weight: 195lbs
Chest: 40"
Overarm: 52"
Neck: 16.5"
Sleeve: 36/37"
Coat Sleeve: 18"
Nape to Small of Back: 25"
Nape to Shoulder: 11"

I'd like to try to get the cut as close as possible before ordering. (I am fully aware of GB's return policy.) Also, for the Wested faithful, I have already spoken to Peter and do not feel Wested offers that for which I am looking. And as much as I would love a TN, $500 is pushing my budget already!

Thanks!

Doug

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:05 pm

I would take a look at US Wings. I typically wear an off-the-rack 40L (35" sleeves on my dress shirts), and the two 40L Expeditions that I've had have both been short in the sleeves. If you go down a size, I would expect the G&B to not be long enough for you. US Wings has long sizes, they are supposed to be well made (I've never owned one), and they are less expensive than a Tony Nowak. Just my $.02.

Michigan Smith · Post by **Michigan Smith** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:20 pm

I wear tall size jackets, and was never able to get an Expo with long enough sleeves. Even the USW tall sizes were too short. I have a G&B Civil A2 that fits, but I think it had and extra 2" in the sleeves, not the usual 1" for a tall size. It was a custom job off their clearance page.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:27 pm

I'm just on 6ft 2 182 pounds, medium/light build- 42 T fits well.

dzukunft · Post by **dzukunft** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:27 pm

Okay, so U.S. Wings is back on the table, especially with that $100 discount they are offering to COW members.

Question: I was originally thinking goatskin, but they also have that predistressed cowhide. How much warmer is cowhide vs. goatskin? I'm going to be trekking in some pretty hot places, but I also live in Chicago (and gearing up for winter). Thoughts?

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:46 pm

Couple of options on the G&B...you could ask for them to send you a 44L, Standard size, just to try it on, and see if it fits you well. I did that. I have not found them to fit heavy set people better. The other would be to enclose all your pertinant info. to see if they can match your size comfortably. It is my understanding that G&B employs a team of leather workers that have been together for quite some time. The sales reps really take care of their customers, and you can also customize a G&B by getting special sleeve length and I added a hidden snap at the bottom of the storm flap in order to keep it closed. The key to your fit would best be a one-on-one with a good sales rep. I'd start with a suitcoat that fits you best and work from there, jmho.

It would be extremely difficult to buy a jacket that would be perfect for warm/hot/humid weather, then hold up well for the much colder climate of Chicago in the winter. If you are looking for a light weight leather jacket for warm/humid conditions, a Todd's standard might be the way to go, then a much heaver jacket for the colder extreme temps...like a US Wings Cowhide, for instance? All to personal preferences, as always.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:06 am

dzukunft wrote:Okay, so U.S. Wings is back on the table, especially with that $100 discount they are offering to COW members.

Question: I was originally thinking goatskin, but they also have that predistressed cowhide. How much warmer is cowhide vs. goatskin? I'm going to be trekking in some pretty hot places, but I also live in Chicago (and gearing up for winter). Thoughts?

Firstly, you DO NOT want the US Wings Cowhide for warm weather wear! Goatskin is much, much, much (did I say much) lighter. If you order you normal size, you should have room to layer with a sweater for Chicago.

Now, the good news - US Wings makes great goatskin jackets. I love mine. Not too heavy, good in the rain, and tough. Length will probably not be a problem. The most frequent complaint about Wings is that their jackets are too long!

Texan Scott makes a point that you can't really have the kind of double-duty jacket that you would need. However, I have to disagree about the Todd's standard. Or any lambskin jacket for that matter. Lambskin jackets are rarely tough enough to endure what a jungle trek will shell out. Goatskin is the closest you're going to get to the versatility you want.

CM · Post by CM » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:57 am

I'd always choose goat (durability), but my goatskin jackets weigh around 1.6 kilos or 3.5 pounds - barely lighter than cow. I can only wear them in colder weather. I'd would never travel with leather...

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:47 am

I think for a proper fit you in particular are going to need a true custom sized jacket and for that you need to look at Magnoli, Todd's, and TN. If you have to save up some extra $ for it, it will be worth it.

dzukunft · Post by **dzukunft** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:09 am

How durable is a Magnoli? That is my primary criteria.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:28 am

If you are looking for durable, the G&B Goat is about as tough as it gets, followed by possibly a USW goat, jmho.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:28 am

dzukunft wrote:How durable is a Magnoli? That is my primary criteria.

Within the limits of the hide you choose, as durable as anything else you're likely to buy. Magnoli jacket quality is top notch.

I'd always choose goat (durability), but my goatskin jackets weigh around 1.6 kilos or 3.5 pounds - barely lighter than cow. I can only wear them in colder weather. I'd would never travel with leather...

Well, actual weight, as in pounds/kilos, only accounts for so much in terms of warmth. And it is possible to cut hides thicker or thinner. Generally, though, including Magnoli's by his own description - goatskin is not as warm as cowhide. Also, I find that cotton linings make jackets feel warmer.

While I love leather, I have to sort of agree with CM. While I would travel with leather, I wouldn't wear it in warm climates. However, if you can wear it comfortably, it's a very practical material, IMHO.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:35 am

Although, leather is a great natural windbreaker, I would not rely on it totally for warmth without any lining, fleece or thinsulate. The movies do a great job in creating fantasy, all form, but often do not bridge the gap of practicality in the real world environment. For instance, I have seen to SA, and it can be so hot that wearing a polo shirt is too much. Most wear a t-shirt, sleeveless, or no shirt, during leisure. This is where the popplin adventure shirt might come in handy, thin and breathable material.

dzukunft · Post by **dzukunft** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:59 am

Sent my specs to both GB and US Wings before I started this thread. Still waiting to hear back... Thank you for the personal "in" at GB; I'll be sure to try and get in touch with him!

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:18 pm

_ wrote:Lots of tail-chasing here... I'd agree on your choice of the Expo for the application in question - a jacket for the bush. Goat is the way to go as well.

The initial post in the string? Why add a middleman (namely, this mottley crew) rather than take that info straight to G&B.

Give them a call - ask for Dave Marshall and tell him Todd _ sent you. He may hand you to somebody else, but you'll be taken care of. Tell them everything you told us. They'll ask more questions and you'll be on your way.

Be sure to tell us how this goes and let me know if I can be of any assistance.

I don't see much in the way of "tail-chasing" here. The OP lists his jacket size as 44L and his sleeve length at 36-37". G&B's own size chart puts their sleeve on a 44L at 35".

http://www.flightsuits.com/index.php?id=46

According to that same chart, dzukunft would have to size up to a 48 to 50 long in order to get a sleeve long enough to fit him. I don't think he would want to to that, for rather obvious reasons.

All of this presupposes, of course, that G&B won't customize a jacket for dzukunft -- something we have been repeatedly told on this forum due to abuse of the prior custom and return policies. (Which, BTW, I do not begrudge G&B for -- the policies were very generous to begin with, and I can easily see how they would be subject to being taken advantage of.)

Now, if zukunft can find a little play in the "no customization" policy by dropping _'s name, more power to him. But unless G&B is going to customize his sleeve length, how is the Expo a good choice for him?

Forrest For the Trees · Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:32 pm

I think G&B would put longer sleeves on any size you want, but you will have to pay extra and it would be non-refundable. They probably still have a made-to-measure option, but it is not cheap! What they absolutely will not do is alter their pattern, use different hardware, etc. That's the impression I get from their website and from those who have spoken up here in the past.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:36 pm

_ wrote: Why add a middleman (namely, this mottley crew) rather than take that info straight to G&B.

"Mottley crew"?!

I thought 'Talk like a Pirate Day' wasn't until the 19th.

Regards! Michaelson

dzukunft · Post by **dzukunft** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:41 pm

So I just got off the horn with GB, and it seems like the consensus among Dave, Amy and myself was that GB is not the best choice for me. I'm too tall and fit, thus making it a custom job. At $600, I'm pretty close to TN. And that is just WAY too much for me right now. (Name dropping, fwiw, did nothing...except the exchange of a few pleasantries.)

However, it appears US Wings WILL fit, according to the spec sheet a salesperson emailed me a few minutes ago. Sleeves and back are long enough. Question is whether I should go CE cowhide (given the discount) or stick with goatskin. Thinking goatskin is probably the way to go, but I hate passing up a deal.

And I guess Magnoli's might be an option, since it would be custom and around the same price as a GB. Any comments? Magnoli vs US Wings?

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:47 pm

Forrest For the Trees wrote:I think G&B would put longer sleeves on any size you want, but you will have to pay extra and it would be non-refundable. They probably still have a made-to-measure option, but it is not cheap! What they absolutely will not do is alter their pattern, use different hardware, etc. That's the impression I get from their website and from those who have spoken up here in the past.

That's it. I paid about $100 more for custom options...the sleeve length and a snap on the storm flap. You are able to get the features you need to have.

dzukunft · Post by **dzukunft** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:54 pm

_ wrote:
dzukunft wrote:(Name dropping, fwiw, did nothing...except the exchange of a few pleasantries.)
LOL! I'd say it got you the right answer quickly - did you expect a freebie?

Definitely got the right answer. And I wasn't expecting a freebie. Just a little disappointed. Was really hoping not to go the custom route.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:04 pm

that_dog wrote:
_ wrote:Lots of tail-chasing here...

...let the Wookie win!

dzukunft · Post by **dzukunft** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:48 pm

How much would a TN goatskin Raider's run me?

I'm seriously considering Magnoli at $495. Unless someone tells me US Wings would be just as good as $350. Or that Magnoli's aren't field-rated.

dzukunft · Post by **dzukunft** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:09 pm

A lot of people seem to complain that US Wings are too long. Well, after looking at the specs, their 44L comes with 37" sleeves (check) and a long back at 29.5" (check). It just might be a little loose around the waist.

I'd really like to get a TN. Really, I would. But I won't spend that much $$$ on a jacket - not at this point in my life. $500 is my limit right now. And like I said, I want something in the spirit of the Jones jacket that will last and last, not necessarily the most SA. (Of course, that would be gravy.)

I would just like to hear a little more from people who own Magnoli's. What kind of measurements does Tony need? How durable are they? What about repairs (e.g. stitching and zipper)? How does it compare to Wings? Better/worse?

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:15 pm

If price is not an issue, Tony can make you a superb goatskin jacket, absolutely. However, even if price is not an issue, G&B can still make you a superb goatskin jacket (there is no Indy jacket that is actually tougher, period).

G&B has a rap around for not doing customizations. But they will in fact make you a jacket that fits. If you are having trouble, I agree with Paterson. Go to Dave Marshall first, and he’ll make sure that you are pointed in the right direction.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:21 pm

dzukunft wrote:So I just got off the horn with GB, and it seems like the consensus among Dave, Amy and myself was that GB is not the best choice for me.

He already did, Adam.

Regards! Michaelson

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:14 pm

Texan Scott wrote:
that_dog wrote:
_ wrote:Lots of tail-chasing here...

...let the Wookie win!

Wookiees don't have tails!

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:18 pm

_ wrote:
that_dog wrote:I don't see much in the way of "tail-chasing" here.
Tail-chasing as in "why not go directly to the vendor" is all I meant to say...

Gotcha. Always worthwhile advice.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:31 pm

dzukunft wrote:A lot of people seem to complain that US Wings are too long. Well, after looking at the specs, their 44L comes with 37" sleeves (check) and a long back at 29.5" (check). It just might be a little loose around the waist.
I want something in the spirit of the Jones jacket that will last and last, not necessarily the most SA. (Of course, that would be gravy.)
I would just like to hear a little more from people who own Magnoli's. What kind of measurements does Tony need? How durable are they? What about repairs (e.g. stitching and zipper)? How does it compare to Wings? Better/worse?

I wish the Magnoli owners weren't such a quiet bunch... or so few. Maybe they will chime in eventually. Meanwhile...
At your current price point, Magnoli and Wings are pretty similar options for quality. If you want the ideal fit, then Magnoli is your man. Tony has a Leather garnet Form on his website with a list of all the measurements he needs. If you think a Wings will fit OK off the rack, then there you go. As much as I love Tony's work, if I can get what I want out of a US Wings, that's the route I go. It's a matter of preference.

As for the TN issue - anyone who really believes they are just costume jackets has not done any research at all. They are awesome. But for many, they break the budget.

If only I were a little richer, or they were a smidge less expensive...

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:45 pm

Texan Scott wrote:PS: The BEST adventure vacation I've ever had... Actun Tunichil Muknal

Is it me or that skelleton is asking for something on his head?

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:57 pm

Looks like I need to read these things more thoroughly. That’s too bad about the sizing. The Indy jacket can be difficult to be fitted for. I would tend to believe that if you couldn’t be fitted correctly by G&B, then US Wings would have just as hard a time. Magnoli might be your only option if you don’t spring for a TN. I thought that TN goatskin was a bit cheaper than his other offerings. You also might want to find out how much a Magnoli will cost to ship to the states, assuming you’re in the states.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:15 pm

Well if he excludes TN (he's already excluded Wested) his only other custom options are Magnoli and Todd's. I think Todd's does customs still.

A TN in the latest dark brown goat (what Holt wants) would be $750 as far as I know.

dzukunft · Post by **dzukunft** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:57 pm

Unless TN would cut me a helluva deal, I'll give you 300:1 odds against. And by "helluva deal", I mean $600. Given how people rave about his craftsmanship and customer service, I rate this probability as 1,000,000:1 against.

My original plan was budgeted for a Wested. That got blown out of the water by all of the mixed reviews and my requirement for mil-spec. So my budget doubled instantly for a US Wings or G&B. Again, I would love to own a TN at some point, but I don't have an itch to have the best Indy coat ever made. It's just a coat...

And I take my whiskey straight.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:27 pm

_ is right. It just takes a little while for your perspective to adjust to the fiscal realities of a proclivity for nice leather jackets.

Back in 2002, a Wested was all I could ever see needing or affording. Fast forward seven years and I'm on my fifth Indy jacket. Between my new TN Raiders (which, BTW, I am totally enamored with [have I mentioned that yet?

]) and a couple of high end A-2 repros, I've got over $2k sitting in the closet, easy. And I have my eye on another Goodwear A-2 (Maybe a Dubow in the new seal horsehide... with a NOS Crown zip if John can get me one. Oh, that would be sweet... and only $1200+), and maybe a Langlitz Cascade....

Basically, once you become accustomed to the idea of paying about $1,000 for a jacket, your frame of reference is forever changed, and your wallet forever screwed. But it's a fun ride.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:48 pm

I'm just curious what one would define as a 'mil-spec' Indiana Jones jacket. I don't think the military has.

Is it specific chrome tanned goat, the thread, zipper and 1/2" tolerance in measurements?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:58 pm

_ wrote:.........

RC - How long did it take for you to get to where our new friend is? Bet it was more than 2 days.

...

I don't know an exact time, but certainly more than 2 days. I spent a lot of time reading, not just here, and after a lot of reading over a long while decided I didn't want a Wested Raiders. I did buy a Wested ToD copy of the NH jacket though, and ended up with two.
My first Indiana Jones jacket was actually a US Wings, and they are very nice jackets, I knew though that I wanted a CS jacket and I bought one, from TN of course. It is a 'real world' jacket, maybe the only jacket of the I-J series that is.
I was convinced early of the legitimacy of the TN Raider and bought one of those, then when the opportunity came for the striated SL as we see in the movie I made that move. The story moves on, as you know. TN came up with a very accurate ToD, and I'm really liking the LC.......
If one plans they can manage to own a TN jacket.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:09 pm

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:14 pm

_ wrote:I generally err on the side of caution...

I guess time spent in the trenches on the front lines of the jacket wars tends to make one a little jaded. Not that you aren't right, necessarily.... there's no substitute for reflex and instinct derived from hard experience.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:09 pm

_ wrote:And as RC pointed out to me offline, and as my own experience tells me?

Son, I'll bet a round of drinks for the house that you are going to end up buying a TN. Based on all my years doing this, giving advice, and the things you're saying? Save yourself some frustration and money and drop $750 on one jacket. You'll spend that much or more on the first two or three jackets that wont "scratch that itch."

Just calling it as I see it...

_ is right here. I spent a lot of extra dollars and time going through A LOT of jackets before I arrived at my present "condition". Would I have listened in the beginning if someone had told me to just drop $750 and be done with it? Probably not, but I would wish that I had. I remember when I almost had heart palpitations when I bought my first jacket, a US WINGS CE for around $400 (whatever it is with the discount). Fast forward a few months and I'm buying a TN Raider I in shrunken lamb without too much blinking.

Once you get the leather itch, I'm not sure you can ever fully scratch it.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:44 pm

Rundquist wrote:You also might want to find out how much a Magnoli will cost to ship to the states, assuming you’re in the states.

Magnoli's listed prices include shipping.

_, my friend, I gotta say this (to you and all the TN champions out there) - I have been a member here for over three years, an Indy fan since Raiders came out, and buying jackets since I had my first paper route. I don't have a TN, probably never will. Keep it in it's proper perspective. Everyone's ultimate Indy jacket (or in dzukunft's case, satisfactory Indy jacket) is different, and must fall within each fan's list of parameters. These days, price is a biggy (especially when you're talking a couple of hundred bucks).
There are many who buy Westeds because it's "the jacket" (no claim of officiality made by me in that statement), others swear oaths never to by TN just because of the price. Is it worth it? Maybe, I'll probably never know. But for many of us, NO jacket is worth that much.

Let's face it, TN jackets have become the Prestige Sports Car of Indy jackets. Are they awesome? Yes. Is it the one we will all eventually buy? Nope. I'd rather have two or three jackets to choose from than one. I made the stretch to Magnoli mainly because I'm an odd size, and I just barely am able to convince myself that the price is reasonable. I remember when Magnoli started selling his jackets and everyone complained (and still do) about the price. Yet, I support him. Strongly. But I would not try to convince somebody to go $200 beyond their budget to buy from him.

So, give the guy a break. He knows what will fulfill his needs, within the budget he has. Let's do here as we do in the Fedora section - respect a person's tastes, budget, and needs (IOW; don't promote an AB to somebody who needs a $200 hat by next week).

dzukunft · Post by **dzukunft** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:46 pm

What do you guys do for a living?! Seriously... I'm just a heavily indebted medical student. So $750 would be great, if I had any kind of positive net income.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:32 pm

Chewbacca Jones, I certainly respect where you're coming from and I'm glad that you've found the jackets that meet your tastes! What I was saying is that I spent a lot more money and time on other jackets that didn't meet what I was wanting. It would have been a lot cheaper and less time consuming to go the route I eventually went. For me, it was a choice of having one jacket that I loved or two or three that were fine but not everything I wanted.

You're also right that TN's jackets can seem a bit cost prohibitive. I got mine by putting some money back each month (I'm a high school history teacher so by no means am I rich). But, granted, not everyone has that luxury.

dzukunft, based on your needs and budget, I'd go with a Magnoli. I've not had one of his Indy jackets, but I did own a Wolverine jacket that was top notch in materials and construction. From what I hear and have seen, his Indy jackets are very SA.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:18 am

Many of us who have bought TN jacket(s) have done so by saving, selling other things, etc etc.
I find it somewhat humourous that some people who complain about TN jacket prices also have on record posts regaling, and not batting an eye at the cost of A-2s from various makers (some prices prices which make a TN look bargain basement)

dzukunft · Post by **dzukunft** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:26 am

At this point, and I'm still waiting to hear back from Tony, I think Magnoli is my best bang for the buck. Thanks for all the advice thus far!

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:41 am

RCSignals wrote:Many of us who have bought TN jacket(s) have done so by saving, selling other things, etc etc.
I find it somewhat humourous that some people who complain about TN jacket prices also have on record posts regaling, and not batting an eye at the cost of A-2s from various makers (some prices prices which make a TN look bargain basement)

Yeah, that one mystifies me. I mean, if you're going to site price as a reason not to by one jacket, you have to apply it to all. If there was some actual evidence that the TN's were lesser jackets, I could understand. But I have not seen anything to suggest that.

I'm pretty sure I've said this before; Each jacket offering has it's pros and cons, and has it's own place in the market. We have more choices than ever before, which is great. So, "the best" and "the worst" choice is, more than ever, a function of each customers tastes and needs. It's a good time to be a gearhead!