A2 or Indy jacket?

PSBIndy · Post by **PSBIndy** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:22 am

For you guys who own both an A2 and Indy jacket(s), which do you prefer to wear more often and why? Personally, while I love the look of a classic and vintage-looking A2, I can't stand the fit....specifically the knitted cuffs and waistband....it makes me feel "constricted." I have a Cockpit A2 which I bought 3 years ago and worn it only once. (Which explains why I have 7 Indy jackets and only 1 A2). Are there A2's out there that feel more comfortable---more like an Indy jacket---than others? How are Eastmans A2's? (I saw one a while back and the detail looked amazing).

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:32 am

My caveat is that I don't own an A2 but I do have a G1 and I'm not a fan of the knitted sleeves and waist on it. That said, I'd go with the Indy.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:47 am

I don't mind the A-2 cuffs (as long as they are sized right), but the way that the waist band causes the jacket to puff out and ride up when open bugs the heck out of me! If A-2's actually laid as flat as they look in photographs (not just the old WWII ones, but even the advertising ones today), I would have at least 2 in my closet. But the reality is, they don't right on a guy who's got plenty of 'puff' on his own!

In the end, the A-2 may have inspired the Indy jacket, but the relationship ends there. The design is too different, and you'll never find an A-2 that wears like an Indy. There are details I like, though, and one day I might have a custom jacket made that merges the Indy with the A-2.

jacksdad · Post by **jacksdad** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:46 pm

I have both and I love the look and fit of my Indy, but I'll switch up from time to time, especially when it's bitter cold go with the thicker horsehide A-2 than my goatskin Indy. I have a US Authentic and it's well made and I like it.

raider 57 · Post by **raider 57** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:07 pm

I own an Indy and an old Cooper G-1. The knit waist on the G-1 may not look as good , but it sure does the job keeping me warm in cold,windy conditions. Less drafts! I think that was the purpose for our "fly-boys".
PBS, You may find that the elastic waist/cuffs will loosen up some if you wear it more. These features need broken-in as much as the leather.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:23 pm

I prefer the look of the Indy jacket, but a true WWII spec A-2 is a great looking jacket. The modern A-2s don't do much for me, but a good vintage Bronco, Doniger, or Dubow A-2 is tough to beat. Eastman, Aero, and Real McCoy's all do a fine job of making repro A-2s, but if you want 1942 in a box, check out John Chapman's work at Goodwear Leather. Take a peek at his jackets -- there's lots of photos on his site, and you will get a real good look at how WWII era A-2s fit. They look goooooooooooood. (John also makes a killer A1 if that is more your speed, along with repros of some vintage civilian leather jackets as well.)

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/index.html

And if you want an Indy connection, Goodwear was chosen to make the jackets for the upcoming Lucas production Redtails, about the Tuskegee airmen in WWII. So Tony Nowak and John Chapman have something in common... (apart from having made jackets for yours truly

).

Tron7960 · Post by **Tron7960** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:59 pm

I've got an Eastman A-2, and several G-1's including a 1968 Star Sportswear. Great Jackets with classic designs. But for me the Indy jacket design is far more comfortable and flattering for most occasions that I'll find myself in.

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:42 pm

That_dog, you are absolutely right. I have a Goodwear 16160 in John's new veg-tanned dark russet horsehide and it is a dream. I've had a couple original A-2s in the past and John is the most accurate I've ever seen, especially with the new hide. Chewbacca's right too. I benefit from a fairly slim build, so the A-2 wears pretty much the way it did on the guys in WWII.

My Nowak Indy 1 is one sweetly comfy jacket, though. Objectively, when new, the Indy jacket is more comfy with pleats, side belts and open cuffs. But once you put a lot of miles on A-2s, they become second skin. More break-in, but worth it.

blueoakleyz · Post by **blueoakleyz** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:45 am

PSBIndy wrote:For you guys who own both an A2 and Indy jacket(s), which do you prefer to wear more often and why? Personally, while I love the look of a classic and vintage-looking A2, I can't stand the fit....specifically the knitted cuffs and waistband....it makes me feel "constricted." I have a Cockpit A2 which I bought 3 years ago and worn it only once. (Which explains why I have 7 Indy jackets and only 1 A2). Are there A2's out there that feel more comfortable---more like an Indy jacket---than others? How are Eastmans A2's? (I saw one a while back and the detail looked amazing).

I think the knit cufffs is what I like about the A2.
I love mine. I wear it with a white hoody (in lieu of a white scarf) for that pilot look

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:38 am

My first 'Indy' Jacket was a civilian A-2 which I wore happily back when I didn't know anything about Indy's jacket nor about A2s. I think that the A2 is one of the finest design that has ever been done for a leather jacket. It is simple and elegant, and that's something that rarely happens with leather garments. A true classic.
The Raiders jacket, in my opinion, maintains the elegance although it's design is not as simple and clean as the A2's. Yet, all those 'baroque details' (like the side vent, pleats and straps) give it a very cool look. Plus it was Indiana Jones' Jacket!! And that's the best of all arguments, I guess

Regards,
Rask

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:19 pm

I understand why the A-2 jacket had the knit cuffs, and that was to close the openings for warmth, so heat would not escape as much. For practicality, to keep you warm, for what it was designed to do, I'd go with the A-2. For the 'hip', one-of-a-kind style and look, as well as function, you just can't beat the Indy.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:35 pm

That's a fact, Tex. I enjoy the heck out of my A-2 in colder weather when the temps drop and I'm cruising down the road in the Plymouth. The closed cuffs REALLY help keep the old 'core' warmer than an open sleeve design...unless you're wearing a sweater underneath, then the open sleeve design works just fine.

So, to answer the question...it really depends on the weather. If it's cool, and I know I won't be spending much time inside, I usually put on my A2....but what I like regarding the cuffs holding in the heat works against me if I'm going to be spending anytime at all inside, like a mall or store. I get TOO warm, and wish I had an open sleeve 'Indy' or like jacket on.

Regards! Michaelson

blueoakleyz · Post by **blueoakleyz** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:51 pm

Texan Scott wrote:I understand why the A-2 jacket had the knit cuffs, and that was to close the openings for warmth, so heat would not escape as much. For practicality, to keep you warm, for what it was designed to do, I'd go with the A-2. For the 'hip', one-of-a-kind style and look, as well as function, you just can't beat the Indy.

Yeah that and the knit cuffs create this look I always thought was classic and always wanted in a leather/bomber jacket, it puffs up the sleeves near the cuffs

PSBIndy · Post by **PSBIndy** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:50 pm

The one thing that bothers me with the better A2's out there is that they don't have the hand-warmer pockets like the Indy jackets have. Now I know that the original WWII A2's didn't have them so the better A2 repro's don't have them either....but still that feature is pretty much a "must" for me as I always find myself using them. (same thing with the inside pocket).

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:21 pm

Most "civilian" A-2's have the handwarmers, but there is far more demand, it seems, for accurate mil-spec these days. U.S. Wings makes them with or without handwarmers. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one other manufacturer doing it.

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:42 pm

Yeah, handwarmers are clearly an improvement. Modern A-2's do have them:

http://www.pilotpetesupplies.com/neil_c ... ckets.html

blueoakleyz · Post by **blueoakleyz** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:51 pm

Chewbacca Jones wrote:Most "civilian" A-2's have the handwarmers, but there is far more demand, it seems, for accurate mil-spec these days. U.S. Wings makes them with or without handwarmers. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one other manufacturer doing it.

I think the handwarmers are milspec too now

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:09 pm

It seems to be so:

"In 1996 Cooper Sportswear was awarded a contract from the Defense Supply Center, Philadelphia (DSCP), to redesign the A-2 jacket to be more functional and to improve the fit. Side entry pockets were added to the patch pockets and inside wallet pockets were added. The fit was enlarged via extra pieces under the arms and on the sides. The neck clasp was also eliminated." (quoted from Wikipedia)

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:14 am

Yes, handwarmers are pretty common. But they do change the look of the jacket. When you want a vintage appearance, the cut and accuracy make all the difference. There are a couple problems with handwarmer pockets: most A-2s never had pockets big enough to put handwarmers behind them and making them bigger changes the whole look. They were making them fast and as efficiently as they could so engineering a split into the lining was out.

The other problem is releasing the seam at the back edge of the pocket allows the pocket to pooch out, which doesn't look very dashing.

Inside pockets are no doubt handy, so if you need one, go with a 422 or G-1 Navy jacket. You get the pleated back and a touch of fur to keep the leather from chaffing against your neck as well. Might be a good compromise if you only want one leather jacket in the closet.

Weston · Post by **Weston** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:16 am

I've been wearing Indy jackets for so long I no longer feel like myself in any other style of jacket. My employer supplies a bomber style jacket with knit cuffs and waist, and I HATE the way the cuffs pull the hairs at my wrists! I would love to own a genuine A-2, but I don't think I can get past this.

Weston

PSBIndy · Post by **PSBIndy** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:56 am

Anyone here own a G&B A2 Mark 31 or 41? How's the fit and quality of the horsehide? How does it compare to say an Eastman or Goodwear?

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:56 am

The G&B historical A-2s are made blousier than the originals for a fuller, more "modern" cut. The G&B A-2s are well-made, but not to the specifications of any particular original contract, and thus they are not true "repros" as such. The Eastman and Goodwear A-2s, on the other hand, are reproductions of original A-2s (with the exception of Eastman's generic or "house" label A-2). Thus, these jackets will generally be trimmer in the body than the G&Bs, but the exact nature of the fit will depend on which original maker's A-2 is being replicated. The dozen or so contractors who made A-2s for the Army Air Forces in the 30s and 40s each had their own method and pattern for making the jackets, so the details vary slightly, as do how the jackets fit.

John Chapman does a good job of explaining the nuances of every contract he copies on his site, so I would poke around there for more info on the fit. I would also check out Acme Depot for info on how the originals were constructed and varied from maker to maker.

http://www.acmedepot.com/a2jacket/a2detail.html

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:42 pm

The A-2 leather jacket is the classic leather jacket of all time. That's an easy thing to forget, especially if you're on this site. The only other leather jacket that comes even close is the "Perfecto" motorcycle jacket (the style that Mutt wears). The A-2 is not perfect, but it's the leather jacket equivalent of Levi's jeans. It’s like a trench coat, or a good suit. It’s a standard for the wardrobe.

raider 57 · Post by **raider 57** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:54 pm

that_dog wrote: Eastman, Aero, and Real McCoy's all do a fine job of making repro A-2s, but if you want 1942 in a box, check out John Chapman's work at Goodwear Leather. Take a peek at his jackets -- there's lots of photos on his site, and you will get a real good look at how WWII era A-2s fit. They look goooooooooooood.

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/index.html

To supplement my Expo, I've been wanting to get an A-2 for several years now.
Thanks for the link TD, Those Goodwear jackets look exactly like what I'd like to have. Pricey yes, but those guys seem to have done their homework on the A-2! Nice options! That 16160 really looks great.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:42 pm

raider 57 wrote:
that_dog wrote: Eastman, Aero, and Real McCoy's all do a fine job of making repro A-2s, but if you want 1942 in a box, check out John Chapman's work at Goodwear Leather. Take a peek at his jackets -- there's lots of photos on his site, and you will get a real good look at how WWII era A-2s fit. They look goooooooooooood.

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/index.html

To supplement my Expo, I've been wanting to get an A-2 for several years now.
Thanks for the link TD, Those Goodwear jackets look exactly like what I'd like to have. Pricey yes, but those guys seem to have done their homework on the A-2! Nice options! That 16160 really looks great.

The Goodwear jackets are expensive and take 6+ months to get (Goodwear is a one-man operation -- John Chapman), but they are sooooooooo worth it. Goodwear is to A-2s what Adventurebilt is to hats and Tony Nowak is to Indy jackets -- an incredibly dedicated craftsman who will take the time and effort to custom build you a jacket the way you want it built. If you're at all interested in getting a Goodwear, I'd definitely give John a call. He's a great guy.

Michigan Smith · Post by **Michigan Smith** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:14 pm

Chewbacca Jones wrote:I don't mind the A-2 cuffs (as long as they are sized right), but the way that the waist band causes the jacket to puff out and ride up when open bugs the heck out of me! If A-2's actually laid as flat as they look in photographs (not just the old WWII ones, but even the advertising ones today),

I think the key to losing the "puff" effect to to stretch out the waistband so it loses its elasticity. Problem is, I haven't figured out a way to do this with causing damage. I tried wet soaking it, then stretching it, then letting it dry stretched out, but it just went back to it original shape in short order. Anyone have any other ideas???

PSBIndy · Post by **PSBIndy** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:15 am

OK, I've decided to give the A2 another try. I went ahead and ordered a G&B Mark 41 in horsehide. (I picked G&B because it was, to me, the best combination of quality, authenticity, and price.......maybe next year I might go for a Goodwear if I have the patience and $$$). I went with the Mahagony color. Would russet brown be a better color for the WWII look?

blueoakleyz · Post by **blueoakleyz** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:22 am

I saw an A2 at the JCPenney today... it was just so different from a military one. The leather felt very stiff and nasty.. and the collar just kinda had corners in it.......... I don't know.. It didn't look TOO bad.

I wonder what would look better? One made by a military manufacturer like US Wings or a mall brand.. heh

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:24 am

PSBIndy wrote:OK, I've decided to give the A2 another try. I went ahead and ordered a G&B Mark 41 in horsehide. (I picked G&B because it was, to me, the best combination of quality, authenticity, and price.......maybe next year I might go for a Goodwear if I have the patience and $$$). I went with the Mahagony color. Would russet brown be a better color for the WWII look?

Deep pockets?

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:38 am

PSBIndy wrote:OK, I've decided to give the A2 another try. I went ahead and ordered a G&B Mark 41 in horsehide. (I picked G&B because it was, to me, the best combination of quality, authenticity, and price.......maybe next year I might go for a Goodwear if I have the patience and $$$). I went with the Mahagony color. Would russet brown be a better color for the WWII look?

Congrats, G&B makes great jackets. WWII era A-2s came in a range of colors -- G&B's "mahogany" is a nice approximation of a vintage seal brown.

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:52 am

That's right, a range of colors (well, all were some sort of brown ranging from reddish brown to chestnut, to dark indy-style seal brown), and a range of leathers. They were spec'ed in horsehide, but some were goat and cowhide was sometimes used too. By far the majority were horsehide though.

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:27 am

Another thing I like very much about the vintage A2's and repros, including your future G&B, PSBIndy, is the lining colour. The orange matches wonderfully with brown leather. First time I noticed that was when I saw Steve McQueen in 'The Great Escape". Since then I always relate WWII A2s with that movie...
Just for curiosity: does anyone around here know what was the material used for making the linings back in the WWII? Was it silk, cotton...?

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:08 pm

Raskolnikov wrote:Another thing I like very much about the vintage A2's and repros, including your future G&B, PSBIndy, is the lining colour. The orange matches wonderfully with brown leather. First time I noticed that was when I saw Steve McQueen in 'The Great Escape". Since then I always relate WWII A2s with that movie...
Just for curiosity: does anyone around here know what was the material used for making the linings back in the WWII? Was it silk, cotton...?

Yeah, the Virgil Hilts jacket is a good one. Of course, very very few of us will ever look as cool as Steve McQueen no matter what we wear, but it's fun to try....

The original spec for the A-2 lining was silk. That was switched to cotton in the late '30s or so due to the difficulty or expense of acquiring silk. Cotton is far and away the most common lining material, though word is that some USAAF fighter pilots in WWII would have their linings replaced with red silk upon making ace.

raider 57 · Post by **raider 57** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:00 pm

PSBIndy wrote:OK, I've decided to give the A2 another try. I went ahead and ordered a G&B Mark 41 in horsehide. (I picked G&B because it was, to me, the best combination of quality, authenticity, and price....

Yeah, PBS. That's my other option, a G&B A-2 in horse. Their mk 41 looks very nice and a bit less dough than the Goodwears. Let us know how you like it and post a pic.
My G&B Expo is a great fit for me, and...as I often say...G&B="bulletproof construction". I'd assume the sizing would be the same?
(Those darn Goodwear's really got the vintage look though!)

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:21 pm

Here is a good (albeit somewhat dated) review of how G&B vintage A-2s fit, as well as how they tend to differ from original and higher fidelity repro A-2s. Good reference photos, too.

http://www.acmedepot.com/a2jacket/eval_FSHA2.shtml

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:22 pm

The other thing about the lining color was that there were quite a few different ones, depending on the contract. Some were sort of brick red, some orange, some brown, but I've never seen an intact silk, just (for the most part) beat up cotton. After all, sweat and time take their toll on cotton.

Also, the knits came in quite a few shades of color, also from red, to brown. Different contracts had different collars, pockets, proportions, fit, sleeve width, body roominess, and snaps.

The Goodwear site is a fascinating education into the details. John has taken apart jackets of just about every contract to get the details right. Of course, he also observes there is some variation in the jackets within a contract, but the major stuff like cut, collar and pockets tends to hold as they cut against patterns. Sometimes they might run out of a certain type of leather and use what was available. It's fun to arm yourself with a little knowledge and try to guess the contracts of jackets in old WWII pictures.

Farmboy · Post by **Farmboy** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:47 am

I have a query re: A2 jackets, and figured this would be the best place to ask:
Does anybody know of a source for the cuff/waist material? The knit bits on my A-2 (Army Air Force) seem to attract moths especially well, with the result that the waistband is quite hole-y. No fabric or craft store that I've seen carries such material (called "stockinette", I believe); are there any online vendors that do?

jacksdad · Post by **jacksdad** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:37 am

call gibson and barnes, that's where I got my wool replacements. Wings offers replacement too,but it's not wool,not sure what the materrial is,but they are good also.

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:45 am

Another thing you can do is get a couple of the little bags of cedar shavings (they sell them at the Container Store), and hang one off the zipper and stick the other in a sleeve. That helps keep the moths at bay.

Indy was smart in that if you're going to spend a lot of time in jungles, you don't want wool knits that attract moths and look bad after every trip.

Tron7960 · Post by **Tron7960** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:46 pm

Here's my 3 year old Eastman Leather Co. repro of the Roughwear 1401-P

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:44 pm

Tron7960 wrote:Here's my 3 year old Eastman Leather Co. repro of the Roughwear 1401-P

Very nice

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:45 pm

Ah, very nice Tron. Eastman makes a fine product. That has the nice olive green stitching, right? Do you wear it a lot? I had an Eastman but sadly, it never quite fit me right (mainly in the sleeves) so I didn't wear it enough to break it in, but the moths did nibble it a bit. Beautiful jacket though. Yours looks like you've worn it enough to soften up the veg-tanned horsehide nicely.

PSBIndy · Post by **PSBIndy** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:16 pm

Awesome jacket, Tron! I'm anxiously waiting for my G&B Horsehide A2 Mark 41 to be made. It should be a couple weeks, hopefully. I really hope the fit would be as good as my other custom Indy jackets.

alphared6 · Post by **alphared6** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:15 pm

I've owned this A-2 for years and years. It was old when I got it. Replaced the elastic twice now. The patches you see are my jump wings (in leather), my Regiment (7th Cavalry) and my rank (Major at retirement) and our squadron border scroll (we patrolled the East West German border at Coberg).

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:36 am

Great jacket alphared6. what make is that one?

PSBIndy · Post by **PSBIndy** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:37 am

Sweet jacket, alphared!

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:47 am

alphared, what hide is that ? ....beautiful and a Big Thanks for your service

.......what have you used to treat it with ?

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:03 am

That is a sweet, sweet jacket, alphared!

And despite my post above, I've been looking at A2s. I'd like to have a Tales of the Gold Monkey look.

alphared6 · Post by **alphared6** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:11 am

RCSignals wrote:Great jacket alphared6. what make is that one?

I have no idea. The label in the back is a well done copy of the issue USAAF issue tag. I suspect it is either an Averx or a Waldlauffer.

Hatch wrote:alphared, what hide is that ? ....beautiful and a Big Thanks for your service .......what have you used to treat it with ?

I think it is calf. I really don't know how to tell. I used saddle soap on it for a long time. But in the last 20 years I've used Pecard's.

alphared6 · Post by **alphared6** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:34 am

crismans wrote:That is a sweet, sweet jacket, alphared!

I'd like to have a Tales of the Gold Monkey look.

"Tales of the Golden Monkey!" WOW! I think that started while I was attending college (early 80's). I have a vague recollection of seeing a few episodes, but I watched very little TV in college. I took 21 hours a semester (I wanted out of there so I could rejoin my unit), so I was a very busy boy. But I remember it had a good look and feel to it. Very "period."