About to order a Wested

JRabbit · Post by **JRabbit** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:00 pm

Hiya folks. I've been lurking here for a couple of weeks, reading through everything I could find on Westeds, and Indy jackets in general. I've got a 22 year old A-2 bomber that finally gave up the ghost, and I decided that if I wanted to replace it, I wanted the best brown leather jacket known to man. That, without a doubt is the Indy jacket. So I started doing my research on these marvelous creations, learning about all of the available makers, as well as the many variations and styles. Call it Indiana Rabbit and the search for the perfect jacket.

After looking over tons of pics, reading even more posts, and thinking long and hard, I think I've come up with my order. I'm not shooting for SA, but for the best features of all the different options for me. What I see as being the jacket that I will wear for years and years and years, like I did the old A-2.

The Manufacturer
I decided that for the money and the customability, Wested was the way to go. I read a lot of good reviews, and some bad ones as well. I decided to trust that Peter and Gemma have sorted out their QC and other issues and it seems like even when people have had problems, Wested has done a really good job of making things right.

The Jacket
First, my size. I'm 5'8" with an athletic build. I wear a 40R sport coat, have medium width shoulders, and a relatively small waist. I wear a 32/32 jeans. One of my complaints of the A-2 I have is that the body is too full and the sleeves are too short. I have a black lambskin motorcycle style jacket that has the perfect length sleeves, but is too long in the body for my taste by about 1.5".

The Material
At first I thought it was Authentic Lamb or nothing. Then after reading more and more about the attributes of Washed Goat, I began to lean that way. I want a thinner material than Cow/Novapelle (one of my complaints about the A-2 was that it was too thick and warm. I live in Houston and our winters are pretty mild. I want a jacket weight that will allow me to wear it as much as possible). I also want a tough material since this is not a costume piece, but a wear everyday, put it through #### jacket. I think the Washed Goat will give me the thin soft feel, with a toughness that I can count on. My worry is that I'd tear Lamb.

The Fit
I want the 919/80's cut, since I'm looking for a jacket that fits a lot like Indy's did in RotLA. The one exception being, I think I want it to be a little shorter than most of the Raiders jackets I've seen here. ToD length is DEFINITELY out.

Since SA isn't my main concern, I'm also thinking of adding two small gussets under the arms to make the jacket more ergonomic, and prevent the "squirrel" look I've seen some of the Raiders jackets get. question to the experts: is this a correct assumption? Will the gussets give the jacket arms more room to move?

Other non SA for a Raider's jacket: snaps at top and bottom of storm flap to keep stress off the zipper when zipped and two inside pockets.

I've had my wife take measurements several times and tweaked them spec a few times.

Here's what I'll be sending to Wested:

Raiders Jacket
Hand washed Goat
Sliders & X Stitch
Extra inside pocket

Chest – 40”
Sleeve – 25”
Back – 23”
Add 1” to length to front of jacket
Shoulder – 6.5”
Trunk at navel – 34”
Waist at belt line – 33”

Pattern: 919(Chris King/80's/thinner) Pattern
5 gauge brass zipper on the right (American style)
No leather zipper facings, zipper ending close to the bottom of the jacket.
Storm Flap: rounded top corner, snaps on top and bottom.
Double inside “slit” pockets, no piping (see http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd31 ... CN0601.jpg)
Pockets: scalloped flap
Outer Pocket dimensions: 6.25” wide x 7.5” tall
Pocket placement: 1.75" from bottom of jacket, left pocket placed 1" from storm flap stitch, right pocket placed 1.75" from zipper seam.
Collar: 2.75 inches on the tips, tapering down to 2.5 inches
The left collar should also extend to the midway point of the top of the storm flap
Leather collar stand
No stitch on the side vent
Action Pleat Depth 1.5”
2 piece underarm gussets in armpits

So, is this a "Frankenjacket" or a good idea? Anything I've missed or should do differently?

Thanks for the incoming advice.

-JackRabbit-

maboot38 · Post by **maboot38** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:14 pm

Hey Jack,

What a Frankenjacket!! I like it. Seems like you've taken all of the qualities from each jacket that you like best and put it together to make something all your own, but still an "Indy" jacket.

I can't wait to see photos of this jacket when you get it. I own a Wested as well, and I've been very happy with it, I'm sure you will be too.

Good job on your selection.

TheExit148 · Post by **TheExit148** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:25 pm

Just a couple things to add:
- The 80's cut fit is the "ROLA jacket", make sure thats the one that you order from the site.
- send them your collar size. Take your shirt collar size and add about 4" to it for the jacket to get that perfect Raiders collar. For eg: My collar size is 15.5" so I sent them 18.5" and it looks great.
- I think 2" for pocket placement from bottom hem is more accurate.
- You should send pictures of the pocket flap style you want (I did that and they turned out perfect).
- A leather collar stand is standard on the jackets I believe so I don't think that you need to mention it (I didn't on my order)
- I would give them a specific measurement about how close to the bottom you want the zipper to end (I placed mine at 0.5" from the bottom)
- One thing is the snaps, I'm not sure if Wested will do that on a ROTLA jacket since thats a feature of the Last Crusade and CS jackets. It doesn't hurt to ask though.

Good luck, and I'm sure that it will turn out the way that you like

JRabbit · Post by **JRabbit** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:47 pm

Thanks Guys!

And advice noted and taken. I've changed the distance from pocket to bottom of jacket to 2" and from custom Raiders to custom ROLA.

Just being on this site gets the Indy soundtrack playing in my head.

JackRabbit.

Post by **Holt** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:08 pm

welcome to the club.great to have you with us.

cant wait to see this jacket.

bests
Holt

Post by **Holt** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:44 pm

I will recommend the goatskin wested use. it is tanned to handle and look like the lambskin but has the strength of steel. due that it is goat

here is my jacket. I dont know if you have read my thread ''IMO let me introduce the most SA wested''

this is the jacket 9 or 10 months later.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g182/ ... CF4093.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g182/ ... CF4098.jpg

just to ad wested will ad snaps to the jacket if you want them.

and be sure to order the jacket with a tad longer sleeves, becasue they will ride up 0.5'' to 0.75 '' with wear.

no need to ask for leather collarstand. this is standard

JRabbit · Post by **JRabbit** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:00 pm

Thanks Holt, and I think I have read that thread... I've read so many, by you, Michaelson, and others, that it's all starting to blur together.

Gorgeous jacket, I take it that's not the washed goat?

On the sleeve length, you say to order it long, I measured from the tip of my shoulder to the first knuckle of my thumb and that is the number I chose. Are you saying I should add 0.5" to 0.75" to that?

Thanks!

JRabbit

Post by **Holt** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:06 pm

it all depends how long you like your sleeve.

I hate short looking sleeves. it looks stupid.

so I order them at 26''. after some wearing they are now at 25.5'' and they stop just above my first thumb knuckle.

its all up to you. but they will bunch up. especially after getting it wet.thats a garantee.

the skin is new ''unwashed'' soft goat.

JRabbit · Post by **JRabbit** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:12 pm

I'm with you, I hate short sleeves. I'll add 0.5" to the sleeve. Glad you said something.

I'm ordering this on September 1st, man, it's killing me to wait.

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:22 pm

Good luck, a little luck can never hurt when dealing with Wested, sometimes you win, sometimes you don't, a bit of a gamble at times, but they do bend over backwards to try to accommodate the fans.

IndyGeek78 · Post by **IndyGeek78** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:36 am

Nw this is the kind of ground work I wish I had put in. Unfortunatley I didn't know about COW till I purchased my Novapelle jacket.

Still a cracking jacket though.

Hope it goes smoothly for you. Don't forget to post pictures ASAP.

P.S. Welcome to the club

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:03 am

bigrex wrote:Good luck, a little luck can never hurt when dealing with Wested, sometimes you win, sometimes you don't, a bit of a gamble at times, but they do bend over backwards to try to accommodate the fans.

Your post made me laugh! Maybe some feel different, but when I whip out my credit card crossing my fingers, rubbing a rabbit's foot, or wondering if it's Friday the 13th shouldn't be part of the transaction!

Doesn't matter who we're talking about, but wouldn't taking the element of luck or chance out of a purchase be the best way to accomodate?

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:54 am

Raider S wrote:
bigrex wrote:Good luck, a little luck can never hurt when dealing with Wested, sometimes you win, sometimes you don't, a bit of a gamble at times, but they do bend over backwards to try to accommodate the fans.
Your post made me laugh! Maybe some feel different, but when I whip out my credit card crossing my fingers, rubbing a rabbit's foot, or wondering if it's Friday the 13th shouldn't be part of the transaction!

Doesn't matter who we're talking about, but wouldn't taking the element of luck or chance out of a purchase be the best way to accomodate?

Raider S,

I agree, taking the element of chance out of a purchase is ideal, but when you have a lot of specs and are dealing with a custom job, there are more chances for something to go awry.

Dr. Evil · Post by **Dr. Evil** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:26 am

This is my first post, but I've been reading these things for a while. I too own a ROLA from WESTED, in washed goat. I bought this jacket because I wanted the 80's cut. After buying this jacket, I noticed that the back is straight. There is no taper to this jacket, whatsoever. It's about a slim as a garbage bag and the back is like a cape. I did, however, purchase an off-the-rack jacket, and perhaps this has something to do with my jacket not being tapered. I am not sure if the custom ROLA is tapered, but I did call Wested to see about getting it tapered. I was told by a woman on the phone that the ROLA is really a straight-backed jacket and that they could only take it in about an inch on each side after the jacket was made. Due to the fact that I'm not sure how these ROLA's are customized, I don't know how slim you could really expect them to be. Just beware of going witht the "80's ROLA", because when you get Wested on the phone, they'll tell you straight up that the ROLA is not tapered. Now, perhaps the ROLA is slimmer than an off-the-rack ROTLA made in-house at Wested, but I wouldn't risk it. I'd go for a custom ROTLA made in-house. The pictures of these jackets are far superior in appearance, especially if you want your jacket to fit. That's just what I've seen from the photos. I can only imagine the ROLA custom being an already-made out-sourced jacket from India that is simply modified and, according to the folks at WESTED, there's only so much modification that can be performed on an already-made jacket.

On a side note, I like my jacket, but I have to take in the straps all that way and then tuck them over and under so they don't get snagged by the traffic wizzing by as I'm walking down the street. The leather is nice, but pekard's is a must, because it really does look dry. Other than that, it's a great jacket and the quality is great. I've worn mine almost everyday for six months. No kidding. This may be wierd, but just take it as a great field test. The threads are still intact and the leather looks great.

Post by **Holt** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:06 am

the of the racks ROLA 80's are slimmer and not tapered.smaller and higher armholes. slimmer sleeves at the top and untapered sleeves towards the cuff. 6''

the ROLA 80's made in the house are tapered towards the waist but full cut in the rest.chest.sleeves.shoulders

so ordering a 80's made in the house is ok. its just a tapered waist jacket.

the full cut ROTLA is a straight full cut jacket. no tapereing.

JRabbit · Post by **JRabbit** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:52 pm

In house custom ROLA it is then.

Arca Perdida · Post by **Arca Perdida** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:27 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:the of the racks ROLA 80's are slimmer and not tapered.smaller and higher armholes. slimmer sleeves at the top and untapered sleeves towards the cuff. 6''

the ROLA 80's made in the house are tapered towards the waist but full cut in the rest.chest.sleeves.shoulders

Hey, Holt

is this anecdotal or is it really how it is with all their off the rack ROLA 80's versus their custom ROLA 80's?

Thanks

Post by **Holt** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:44 pm

yes this is it.

the of the racks 80 rola's outsorced from India are pretty different from the custom 80's rola's made in the house.

if you had them next to eachother you could easily tell them apart. I could anyways... blindfolded

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:42 pm

Just read through this thread. Just curious as to why you're going Wested? All these specs are giving me a headache to the point that, yet again, makes one wonder WHY all these specs are needed.

If you have something wrong with your car, would you be happy if you had to step the mechanic through everything in the process? Wouldn't you think he could get it right by himself? Especially if he allegedly designed and built the car in the first place...

But I digress. If I were in your position, I would be seriously considering a Todd's. Sure it's not custom, but it doesn't have to be because it's ALREADY accurate. It's just a matter of making sure it's available in proportions that suit.

At least you'll know what you order is what you'll get without having to make all the excuses for why a small (or big) mistake is ok like everyone else that orders a Wested seems to end up having to do.

Post by **Holt** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:59 pm

I can understand the headache part... but I think that there is just something about to have it fromt he original maker...

to me, it doesnt matter from where they get it from. as long as they are happy wit it...

they are all really cool jackets to me...

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:33 am

I get where you're coming from, Holt. And at the end of the day we are just talking about minutiae that the average person would never notice.

But JRabbit obviously does care about such things or he wouldn't be asking for all these details and angsting about it for so long as many of us do.

And so the problem is that often the buyer isn't going to know whether they're happy with their choice until after someone has their money. That's why with Wested's track record (that there hasn't been any evidence of being any better of late) I'm just trying to offer another option before any hard earned money is laid down.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:32 am

The problems are often more serious than just nuances most people wouldn't notice, though. For example, I still remecall the former COW member who received a jacket with sleeves that were a darker shade of brown than the rest of the jacket.

He sent it back (more than once, as I recall, and at his own expense) and Wested simply sent it right back to him, saying it looked good enough to them. He had to start a thread about it and post photos before they would help him out

Although problems like this have come up again and again over the years, Wested has done little or nothing (as far as I am aware) to improve the quality of their service; and why should they, as long as enough customers who receive shoddy work continue to make excuses for them and buy more of their jackets?

Wested used to be your only option if you wanted a relatively authentic Indy jacket; now they are a far cry from being even your best option.

The "original maker" perk has lost some of its lustre lately, and wears even more thin once you've received a couple of jackets with serious defects like loose stitching and one sleeve that's an inch shorter than the other, as I have. Why on earth would I want to buy another Wested, when there are other vendors who not only make more accurate jackets backed up with stellar service, but who also tend to get everything right the first time?

But whatever you ultimately decide, you are doing the right thing by asking questions and doing research NOW, before you buy anything. You always need to do that, but especially so when dealing with a company with a customer service track record as shaky as Wested's.

Caveat Emptor,
Jack

Kevin Anderson · Post by **Kevin Anderson** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:03 am

Exactly. Any COW member that can read should hardly be surprised if and when they receive poor service (or product) from Wested.

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:54 pm

I don't know, at least for myself, they have been great to deal with as far as customer service. I send out emails to Gemma and always get a reply back, usually the next day. I've sent out dozens of emails. For me, the problem is that they still get things wrong despite returning of items, etc. sometimes I kind of feel sorry for them, it seems like they are trying, but I imagine with all the custom job stuff, etc., the staff isn't too well equipped to handle the volume they are dealing with? Maybe that's not the case, but it sure seems like it to me.

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:07 pm

Here are the things I am wondering about.

What are the percentage of these "dud" jackets compared to well made ones?

Are the reason for these "duds" due to Wested's lack of quality, or unrealistic and confusing expectations?

I have asked a few times on this forum what is SA and I get no less than 20 different answers every time. I can only imagine what Peter must think when he gets these super long request lists. As far as I can tell Peter is one of the few businesses that offers custom jackets with a fixed cost. If I were him I would charge a $5.00 for every requested change that was above and beyond sizing.

I have only owned a cotton Wested so I can only talk about my experience and so far it's been quite good. I wore my jacket for years and it only now has gotten to a point where it's becoming unwearable. A while ago I suggested that as a community we all spend our time pounding out the agreed upon specs for that year, submit them to Peter and then then accept that if you order a Wested that year, you'll get those exact specs. It was largely rejected by this community, but I still think this would eliminate 70% of the issues.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:28 pm

I'm glad your experiences with them have been good. Mine have not, and I won't mince words about it.

A couple of years ago I ordered a Stonewashed Denim Indy (the last Wested I'll evere buy). Peter posted here that he had mistakenly included D-rings instead of sliders with the initial orders, and offered to send a set of sliders free to anyone who asked. A simple problem, easily resolved-- right?

I requested the sliders, and Gemma emailed me she was sending them. Shortly afterward, I received a torn envelope with only 1 slider inside.

I sent Gemma another polite email describing what happened, and she told me she was sending me another set of sliders, and would even include 2 extra ones this time.

What I received was anothjer torn envelope with only 1 slider inside it. Finally I told Peter about it. He not only did nothing, but implied (on this forum) that I was lying about the problem.

I did briefly entertain the remote possibility that the torn envelopes could have been an amazingly coincidental double post office snafu-- until I read a post by another COW member describing an almost identical situation happening to him-- being told that he was being sent a set of sliders, only to receive a torn envelope-- an empty one in his case (I guess I rate a little higher with Wested than he does

). My problem was never resolved, I hope he had a better outcome.

Contrast this level of "service" with Tony Nowak's, who not only quickly repaired the zipper pull on my CS jacket when it broke, but sent me two free jackets as compensation.

Jack

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:51 pm

Jack,

So I guess there are two logical conclusions that one could come to. Peter was putting one slider in an envelope, ripping them and then sending them out because this somehow benefited his business. Two people were unfortunate enough to have an envelope rip open during shipping while many others got theirs without issue.

Also, I'm not saying you're a liar, but TN sending you two free $700 jackets for a zipper error? That seems like about the worst business practice on the planet and it seems quite unlikely.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:05 pm

crazylegsmurphy wrote:Here are the things I am wondering about.

What are the percentage of these "dud" jackets compared to well made ones?

Are the reason for these "duds" due to Wested's lack of quality, or unrealistic and confusing expectations?

I have asked a few times on this forum what is SA and I get no less than 20 different answers every time. I can only imagine what Peter must think when he gets these super long request lists. As far as I can tell Peter is one of the few businesses that offers custom jackets with a fixed cost. If I were him I would charge a $5.00 for every requested change that was above and beyond sizing.

I have only owned a cotton Wested so I can only talk about my experience and so far it's been quite good. I wore my jacket for years and it only now has gotten to a point where it's becoming unwearable. A while ago I suggested that as a community we all spend our time pounding out the agreed upon specs for that year, submit them to Peter and then then accept that if you order a Wested that year, you'll get those exact specs. It was largely rejected by this community, but I still think this would eliminate 70% of the issues.

Considering all the I-j jacket makers around now, Wested is not one of few who offer Custom jackets at fixed cost. (You could still argue there are few I-J jacket makers I suppose) I can think of only two at the moment who don't offer a custom at fixed cost, and at that some people have reported extra cost from Wested for Custom requests.

I don't think you'd get many to agree to a 'fixed' list of specs from Wested for an entire year, but the idea is interesting for those who want to buy a 'SA' jacket from Wested.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:07 pm

crazylegsmurphy wrote:Jack,

So I guess there are two logical conclusions that one could come to. Peter was putting one slider in an envelope, ripping them and then sending them out because this somehow benefited his business. Two people were unfortunate enough to have an envelope rip open during shipping while many others got theirs without issue.

Also, I'm not saying you're a liar, but TN sending you two free $700 jackets for a zipper error? That seems like about the worst business practice on the planet and it seems quite unlikely.

You maybe don't mean to but it reads to me like you are calling Jack a liar.

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:24 pm

I don't think you'd get many to agree to a 'fixed' list of specs from Wested for an entire year, but the idea is interesting for those who want to buy a 'SA' jacket from Wested.

You maybe don't mean to but it reads to me like you are calling Jack a liar.

6 Months then...I dunno. The point is that if we want Peter to produce a consistent product then we should be the same with him. The thing is that no one can agree with what is actually SA, yet people slam vendors when they don't get it right. I don't think any vendor is going out of their way to make bad products, but I can imagine how hard it must be when you get a laundry list of requests down to the thread. It's one thing if you're paying big money, its another thing when the vendor is doing is doing it for minimal cost.

I don't think it would be unreasonable for this community to put out a set of agreed upon standards for gear every 6 months to a year. That way everyone is on the same page. I realize this will never happen because it takes the fun out of it for some, and no one would agree (even if it were put to vote). The thing is, this site has been running for a long time, but there never seems to be much progress on the SA front. Threads still pop up daily with some new theory on something....

I like science and in many ways getting the perfect SA gear is science. The problem is that while we can all have our own theories and opinions there isn't a unified consensus like there is in science. I think it would be an amazing experiment to have it where each half year or year gear is reviewed. Anyone that can make a case for a change can submit the "evidence" to be reviewed by us all. Then, we can post the findings in a sticky for that year.

That way vendors could see what the community considers SA for that time and if they want, try to match it. If someone comes up with a better argument for the next review, then it's added or changed.

Ya, I know this will never happen, but I think it would be cool.

Also, I'm not saying he's lying....but it feels like there are some parts to those stories that are missing.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:32 pm

crazylegsmurphy wrote: Also, I'm not saying you're a liar, but TN sending you two free $700 jackets for a zipper error? That seems like about the worst business practice on the planet and it seems quite unlikely.

Actually, Tony sent me a free jacket as a result of us just shooting the breeze about Arnie Schwarzenegger. He's done similar things for many.

Based on what I've seen here in the past year, I'd say Wested actually gets away with far more than other vendors; so to me the "unrealistic expectations" argument doesn't wash. Do you see the same ratio of satisfied:dissatisfied threads about Magnoli, Todd's or Nowak? No. But Wested continually gets off the hook because they're the "original maker".

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:37 pm

crazylegsmurphy wrote:Jack,

So I guess there are two logical conclusions that one could come to. Peter was putting one slider in an envelope, ripping them and then sending them out because this somehow benefited his business. Two people were unfortunate enough to have an envelope rip open during shipping while many others got theirs without issue.

Also, I'm not saying you're a liar, but TN sending you two free $700 jackets for a zipper error? That seems like about the worst business practice on the planet and it seems quite unlikely.

I'm not lying about the two free jackets-- they were Arnold Classics, not CS jackets-- but other COW members including Yojimbo have posted that Tony sent them free Indy jackets. I thanked Tony on the THIS IS TONY NOWAK thread, and he responded.

I'm not lying about the torn envelopes Gemma sent me, either. I'll just leave it at that.

Jack

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:52 pm

eazybox wrote:
crazylegsmurphy wrote:Jack,

So I guess there are two logical conclusions that one could come to. Peter was putting one slider in an envelope, ripping them and then sending them out because this somehow benefited his business. Two people were unfortunate enough to have an envelope rip open during shipping while many others got theirs without issue.

Also, I'm not saying you're a liar, but TN sending you two free $700 jackets for a zipper error? That seems like about the worst business practice on the planet and it seems quite unlikely.
I'm not lying about the two free jackets-- they were Arnold Classics, not CS jackets-- but other COW members including Yojimbo have posted that Tony sent them free Indy jackets. I thanked Tony on the THIS IS TONY NOWAK thread, and he responded.

I'm not lying about the torn envelopes Gemma sent me, either. I'll just leave it at that.

Jack

A little more to the story reveals a lot. I wonder if anyone has any Wested stories that are similar. I never said you lied about the envelopes, what I am saying is that I think it's a tad harsh to be badmouthing a company over something that clearly wasn't their fault.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:01 pm

crazylegsmurphy wrote:
eazybox wrote:
crazylegsmurphy wrote:Jack,

So I guess there are two logical conclusions that one could come to. Peter was putting one slider in an envelope, ripping them and then sending them out because this somehow benefited his business. Two people were unfortunate enough to have an envelope rip open during shipping while many others got theirs without issue.

Also, I'm not saying you're a liar, but TN sending you two free $700 jackets for a zipper error? That seems like about the worst business practice on the planet and it seems quite unlikely.
I'm not lying about the two free jackets-- they were Arnold Classics, not CS jackets-- but other COW members including Yojimbo have posted that Tony sent them free Indy jackets. I thanked Tony on the THIS IS TONY NOWAK thread, and he responded.

I'm not lying about the torn envelopes Gemma sent me, either. I'll just leave it at that.

Jack
A little more to the story reveals a lot. I wonder if anyone has any Wested stories that are similar. I never said you lied about the envelopes, what I am saying is that I think it's a tad harsh to be badmouthing a company over something that clearly wasn't their fault.

What does it reveal?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:05 pm

crazylegsmurphy wrote:
I don't think you'd get many to agree to a 'fixed' list of specs from Wested for an entire year, but the idea is interesting for those who want to buy a 'SA' jacket from Wested.

You maybe don't mean to but it reads to me like you are calling Jack a liar.
6 Months then...I dunno. The point is that if we want Peter to produce a consistent product then we should be the same with him. The thing is that no one can agree with what is actually SA, yet people slam vendors when they don't get it right. I don't think any vendor is going out of their way to make bad products, but I can imagine how hard it must be when you get a laundry list of requests down to the thread. It's one thing if you're paying big money, its another thing when the vendor is doing is doing it for minimal cost.

I don't think it would be unreasonable for this community to put out a set of agreed upon standards for gear every 6 months to a year. That way everyone is on the same page. I realize this will never happen because it takes the fun out of it for some, and no one would agree (even if it were put to vote). The thing is, this site has been running for a long time, but there never seems to be much progress on the SA front. Threads still pop up daily with some new theory on something....

I like science and in many ways getting the perfect SA gear is science. The problem is that while we can all have our own theories and opinions there isn't a unified consensus like there is in science. I think it would be an amazing experiment to have it where each half year or year gear is reviewed. Anyone that can make a case for a change can submit the "evidence" to be reviewed by us all. Then, we can post the findings in a sticky for that year.

That way vendors could see what the community considers SA for that time and if they want, try to match it. If someone comes up with a better argument for the next review, then it's added or changed.

Ya, I know this will never happen, but I think it would be cool.

Also, I'm not saying he's lying....but it feels like there are some parts to those stories that are missing.

Are you suggesting that Wested does not make an SA jacket without these lists?

What are you saying here?

It's one thing if you're paying big money, its another thing when the vendor is doing is doing it for minimal cost.

You should expect less if you aren't paying "big money" ?

Help me understand your meaning with that.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:09 pm

JRabbit wrote:Thanks Holt, and I think I have read that thread... I've read so many, by you, Michaelson, and others, that it's all starting to blur together.......

YOU'RE experiencing a 'blur'. Heck, what do you think WE experience after all these years of posting this stuff!??

Regards! Michaelson

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:33 pm

eazybox wrote:...being told that he was being sent a set of sliders, only to receive a torn envelope-- an empty one in his case (I guess I rate a little higher with Wested than he does ). My problem was never resolved, I hope he had a better outcome.

Jack

I would assume that it is best to not send sliders in an envelope for long distance travel, probably went through sorting machines and by the time it rattled around to anyone's home, sounds like the result has a high probability of being the same, damaged packaging and lost contents.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:34 pm

I'm sure that people are becoming worried that this is turning into a Nowak vs Wested thread. I'm not saying get a Nowak over a Wested. We're in a very lucky time, gear-wise, that there are several quality vendors to deal with. One vendor, however, seems to get a bit of a pass with some people when it comes to these mistakes.

"It doesn't look that bad, wear and enjoy!" "At least you didn't have to pay customs!" It seems there's a standard list of platitudes that gets trotted out when a person has a legitimate gripe. I fully realize that we're talking custom jackets and there's going to be mistakes. I wouldn't expect every pocket to be within a mm. But I ordered my last Wested in washed goat, three days later I switched it to regular goat and got a confirmation email that the switch was catalogued. Three months later, it came in washed goat. Several of the early orders of the ToD jackets had mistakes in the vent construction. That's not a huge deal, in itself, but, once the problem was pointed out, the pattern was changed but nothing was offered to those that had received an incorrect jacket. No new jacket, no partial refund, nothing. If they wanted a correct jacket, they had to buy a new one. Not exactly how I would like to be treated as a customer.

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:34 pm

What does it reveal?

Saying, "He sent me two free jackets" could be misconstrued. I assumed he was talking about Indy jackets. Sending a customer less valuable items isn't a new thing. I have gotten a few freebies from computer companies. The difference is that TN charges almost $400 more for the same jackets that Wested is making, so it's pretty easy to see why some vendors are able to offer these types of things. Wested may simply not have the ability to do this yet posts like the one above paint it like they're cheap and incompetent.

Peter sent out sliders to everyone who got the wrong ones. That is pretty good if you ask me because I have spent more money on many other things in my life and it's rare for a company to do that without being forced to. In Jack's case he had bad luck, and after a few "ripped enveloped" he got upset....ok fine, but why does he feel the need to put his anecdotal story into a post where the OP doesn't seem interested in the personal problems others have had with the company.

Are you suggesting that Wested does not make an SA jacket without these lists?

I'm suggesting that many vendors are fighting a battle they can't ever win. If Peter came on here and said, "You know what, I made the #### jackets, I know what is SA, so you can all take it or leave it!" that wouldn't be good enough for many.

You should expect less if you aren't paying "big money" ?

Here is a story.

I used to be a special make-up FX artist. Many times I would have a director come to me and want the worlds best effect for almost no money. There were times when they got all cranky because I simply couldn't give them what they wanted because time and materials cost money. There are also techniques that you can use when you have more money, and ones you're forced to use when you don't.

When I worked on some films where the budget was in the $10,000 + mark they got a much better product than the ones who had $500. This wasn't because we didn't treat them the same, it was because they simply didn't have the money for us to do everything right. Sure we wanted everything to look amazing, but we were running a business and as such we had to draw the line somewhere. Sometimes we would borrow from the good stuff and not charge the client, but that can get costly.

Wested doesn't charge a lot for their jackets, and as far as I know doesn't charge a lot for custom jackets yet everyone thinks they're perfectly within reason to ask for the worlds most custom jacket without regard of how much extra time it takes. X-box stitching costs him money in time and materials for example, but he does them because we ask. I personally think he's pretty generous with what lengths he goes to - to try and please the generally unpleasable.

When I walk into Wested in October I will treat Peter like I would anyone I'm buying from. If I don't like the final result then it's within my rights to not pay for it.

That's not a huge deal, in itself, but, once the problem was pointed out, the pattern was changed but nothing was offered to those that had received an incorrect jacket. No new jacket, no partial refund, nothing. If they wanted a correct jacket, they had to buy a new one. Not exactly how I would like to be treated as a customer.

Fair enough. I just bought a $3200 Macbook and less than 3 months later they chopped $500 off the price and upgraded a bunch of the hardware. Was I annoyed, ya of course... Would it stop me from buying another one...nope (although other reasons will). Again, I have no idea how long there was between when it was fixed and when the originals went out. I bet that if you contacted Wested and explained your thoughts they might help you out....but that's just speculation.

I'm not saying that Wested is perfect. They're a small company dealing with an international market (my understanding) and that market can be very picky. There are going to be issues and there are going to be perfect jackets...that's the nature of things. What I am getting at is that it's a little underhanded to start slamming one vendor to someone who isn't even asking that question.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:48 pm

Unfortunately, I think your post has some holes in (totally my opinion, of course). First, Tony does charge more for his jacket (as does Magnoli, G+B, or Todd's for his customs), whether they are worth the extra cost is up to the buyer to decide. Again, in my opinion as someone who has owned each of the above mentioned jackets, they are NOT the same.

As for the sliders, that was nice that Peter sent out new ones, but see my above post on the ToD jackets. The big selling point of that jacket was the fact that it was based on pattern from an original jacket. The SA factor was a huge selling point with it. When the first ones to order received an inaccurate jacket, they were stuck with them. Not even a discount for a new ToD jacket was offered.

I do agree that there shouldn't be a need for the laundry lists. Peter made the jackets. He should be able to reasonably recreate them. I don't know why we need the lists to get a close SA jacket.

I hope that you have a great experience with Wested. Unfortunately, if you're overseas, you don't know your not happy with the product until you've already payed for it.

And I thought hard before posting. But if someone is thinking of buying a Wested, they should be aware of the pros and cons of such a purchase.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:52 pm

If you experience repeated, poor service from a company and decide to tell others about it, it's not badmouthing, in my opinion-- it's trying to alert other potential customers about problems you've had with a company.

One torn envelope would be something beyond Wested's control, but 3--that I am aware of-- is a serious customer service issue that a company needs to address. In any case, they could have easily resolved the problem as most companies would have done,but never did so.

Again, I'm not badmouthing the company. I hope they resolve these issues for the sake of future customers.

Jack

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:54 pm

I hope that you have a great experience with Wested. Unfortunately, if you're overseas, you don't know your not happy with the product until you've already payed for it.

I hope so as well, but doesn't Wested have a good return policy?

I guess the question I would ask is...would you pay $700 for a Wested if you knew it would be as SA as Tony's? As I said above, maybe the reason he needs a list is because it costs him too much to do them 100% SA, yet he caters to people who want a $700 for $300.

I almost guarantee if you walked into Wested and said, "I have $700 to make the best jacket ever!" you would get something very close.

If you experience repeated, poor service from a company and decide to tell others about it, it's not badmouthing, in my opinion-- it's trying to alert other potential customers about problems you've had with a company.

That's fair...I only have two questions then. Did the OP ask for this opinion? Did you ask the OP if he wanted this opinion?

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:06 pm

I hope so as well, but doesn't Wested have a good return policy?

I guess the question I would ask is...would you pay $700 for a Wested if you knew it would be as SA as Tony's? As I said above, maybe the reason he needs a list is because it costs him too much to do them 100% SA, yet he caters to people who want a $700 for $300.

If it were as SA as Tony's with the same customer service and same construction, yes, I would buy from Wested at that price. But all three factors comes into play. I'm nortoriously cheap and definitely not one of those that will pay an extra 400 just because it's 400 more (if you understand what I'm talking about). It's a matter of personal preference for each buyer to decide if the benefits you get justify the extra cost. To me, they do.

This will have me burned at the stake I'm sure, but I don't think that the problems, lack of communication, etc. justifies the price tag Wested currently has. I'm one of those people who like to buy a new jacket every now and then and would buy from Wested just to try out a new hide, what have you, if I could expect a reasonably well-constructed jacket. But I've had problems with Wested's construction as well as issues like jackets being made in the wrong hide. To me, it's just not worth the gamble right now. Others seem to get a good jacket that lasts them years and I'm happy for those that can manage this.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:09 pm

Odd question, Crazlegsmurphy; if I were the OP, I would appreciate getting everyone's viewpoint, because it would help me make my decision-- it wouldn't occur to me to ask, but if the OP doesn't want my input, I have no problem with that-- it's his money, after all.

Jack

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:15 pm

crazylegsmurphy wrote: The difference is that TN charges almost $400 more for the same jackets that Wested is making, so it's pretty easy to see why some vendors are able to offer these types of things.

There's quite a bit more difference between a Wested jacket and a Nowak jacket than the price, they aren't the same by a long shot!

Personally, I could care less what someone else buys as long as they're happy. But it seems fair to let people know about the real differences between things. And Nowak jackets are not at all like Wested jackets. That's not saying one is "bad" just there is a difference.

I wanted a couple jackets I could be proud of, were made to the highest standard, and were something I'd be proud to own and hopefully wear(out) over many years. Luckily, through this board, I found my man. It took me a few other jackets to get there and only wish I had listened to what a few brave people were trying to tell me in the first place!

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:58 pm

crazylegsmurphy wrote:
What does it reveal?
Saying, "He sent me two free jackets" could be misconstrued. I assumed he was talking about Indy jackets. Sending a customer less valuable items isn't a new thing. I have gotten a few freebies from computer companies. The difference is that TN charges almost $400 more for the same jackets that Wested is making, so it's pretty easy to see why some vendors are able to offer these types of things. Wested may simply not have the ability to do this yet posts like the one above paint it like they're cheap and incompetent.

Peter sent out sliders to everyone who got the wrong ones. That is pretty good if you ask me because I have spent more money on many other things in my life and it's rare for a company to do that without being forced to. In Jack's case he had bad luck, and after a few "ripped enveloped" he got upset....ok fine, but why does he feel the need to put his anecdotal story into a post where the OP doesn't seem interested in the personal problems others have had with the company.

Are you suggesting that Wested does not make an SA jacket without these lists?
I'm suggesting that many vendors are fighting a battle they can't ever win. If Peter came on here and said, "You know what, I made the #### jackets, I know what is SA, so you can all take it or leave it!" that wouldn't be good enough for many.

You should expect less if you aren't paying "big money" ?
Here is a story.

I used to be a special make-up FX artist. Many times I would have a director come to me and want the worlds best effect for almost no money. There were times when they got all cranky because I simply couldn't give them what they wanted because time and materials cost money. There are also techniques that you can use when you have more money, and ones you're forced to use when you don't.

When I worked on some films where the budget was in the $10,000 + mark they got a much better product than the ones who had $500. This wasn't because we didn't treat them the same, it was because they simply didn't have the money for us to do everything right. Sure we wanted everything to look amazing, but we were running a business and as such we had to draw the line somewhere. Sometimes we would borrow from the good stuff and not charge the client, but that can get costly.

Wested doesn't charge a lot for their jackets, and as far as I know doesn't charge a lot for custom jackets yet everyone thinks they're perfectly within reason to ask for the worlds most custom jacket without regard of how much extra time it takes. X-box stitching costs him money in time and materials for example, but he does them because we ask. I personally think he's pretty generous with what lengths he goes to - to try and please the generally unpleasable.

When I walk into Wested in October I will treat Peter like I would anyone I'm buying from. If I don't like the final result then it's within my rights to not pay for it.

That's not a huge deal, in itself, but, once the problem was pointed out, the pattern was changed but nothing was offered to those that had received an incorrect jacket. No new jacket, no partial refund, nothing. If they wanted a correct jacket, they had to buy a new one. Not exactly how I would like to be treated as a customer.
Fair enough. I just bought a $3200 Macbook and less than 3 months later they chopped $500 off the price and upgraded a bunch of the hardware. Was I annoyed, ya of course... Would it stop me from buying another one...nope (although other reasons will). Again, I have no idea how long there was between when it was fixed and when the originals went out. I bet that if you contacted Wested and explained your thoughts they might help you out....but that's just speculation.

I'm not saying that Wested is perfect. They're a small company dealing with an international market (my understanding) and that market can be very picky. There are going to be issues and there are going to be perfect jackets...that's the nature of things. What I am getting at is that it's a little underhanded to start slamming one vendor to someone who isn't even asking that question.

Crazylegs you are very defensive of Wested and that's fine.

You can buy what you want to buy and deal with the companies you want to. It seems to me though that it is you making assumptions and speculation of other peoples posts, not the other way around.
It's you who has brought up the cost of TN jackets compared to Wested's, not the other way around, and as if the cost of a TN has some stigma compared to a Wested.

On the Wested ToD situation, you bring up an odd comparison, and admit you don't know the details. It's all here, in old posts if you are really interested. I assure you the 'change' didn't happen after a very long time at all. In fact from reading I doubt many jackets with the incorrect collar stand and vents were even made before the change was made. Now that's off topic with the thread but I mention it since it has been brought up.
crismans is right in what he has said.

The OP only asked for advice, he didn't ask for people's experience with Wested, on that you are correct. Then again the OP did not say he did not want such information.
Maybe he will chime in and others won't have to speculate about what information he does not want

crazylegsmurphy · Post by **crazylegsmurphy** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:07 pm

RCSignals wrote:
The OP only asked for advice, he didn't ask for people's experience with Wested, on that you are correct. Then again the OP did not say he did not want such information.
Maybe he will chime in and others won't have to speculate about what information he does not want

Well, I read the OP's post and this is what it says.

I decided that for the money and the customability, Wested was the way to go. I read a lot of good reviews, and some bad ones as well. I decided to trust that Peter and Gemma have sorted out their QC and other issues and it seems like even when people have had problems, Wested has done a really good job of making things right.

Seems to me that is pretty much the same as saying, "I have made my choice based on my own research, so what I am wanting is advice relating to my choice."

He can of course correct me if I am wrong.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:51 pm

Admittedly, I might have strayed off topic some as the thread evolved. This wasn't my intention. However, I think we may still be in the parameters of the post as:

I decided to trust that Peter and Gemma have sorted out their QC and other issues and it seems like even when people have had problems, Wested has done a really good job of making things right.

This hasn't been the case in my experience and in my readings of others posts.

eazybox · Post by **eazybox** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:02 pm

crismans wrote:Admittedly, I might have strayed off topic some as the thread evolved. This wasn't my intention. However, I think we may still be in the parameters of the post as:

I decided to trust that Peter and Gemma have sorted out their QC and other issues and it seems like even when people have had problems, Wested has done a really good job of making things right.
This hasn't been the case in my experience and in my readings of others posts.

Yes-- even if I had already made up my mind, I would welcome and even expect additional input; I would not take the attitude, "I've already made up my mind, so if anyone has had a bad experience with this company, please keep it to yourself."

But Crazylegsmurphy may be right, and if so, I apologize to the OP; I only posted based on the trend the thread was taking, not on the original post, anyway.

Jack

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:11 pm

Yes it's all bigrex's fault.

He started the derailment

bigrex wrote:Good luck, a little luck can never hurt when dealing with Wested, sometimes you win, sometimes you don't, a bit of a gamble at times, but they do bend over backwards to try to accommodate the fans.