Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
Moderator: BullWhipBorton
Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I cannot even express just HOW proud I am, to FINALLY have – what *I* consider to be - the ULTIMATE Raiders bullwhip in my hands.
I hope you don’t mind a few details on how this actually came to be – after all it took us round about one and a half years to come this far. One and a half years of studying screen grabs, pictures of screen used bullwhips, vintage David Morgan whips from the Raiders era, details upon details.
Late 2007 I was contacted by one of the most talented whip makers regarding the AB shirts, and through our conversations came the concept of making an AB bullwhip: Paul Nolan of Midwestwhips. I knew NOTHING about the topic. Well, ok, I guess nothing is relative, but compared to you guys in here, it fits pretty well. What I knew, is basically what you can read on the main pages of Indygear.com and that’s pretty much it. I had bought a few whips myself – 10’ natural tan roo hide whips – and just like a newbie purchasing a pair of officers pinks, I thought that what I had was pretty much “it”. When Paul and I began talking about the idea of an AB bullwhip, I started to really learn. I learned to crack a whip (more or less), I learned what goes into making one (no, I did NOT start plaiting – I’m talking the theory only here) and I started to look at the screen grabs that showed the Raiders bullwhips up close. As I moved on, I started to write down the differences that I could see between the Raiders bullwhips and any other whip I could get into my fingers during this phase. Obviously, Paul shared this obsession, as he did the same in the meanwhile (and had been doing so for many many years, even including having examined a screen used Raiders whip in person!). While I was writing down the optical details, Paul examined a ruined David Morgan from the very early eighties, that is still in his possession, for the technical details. EVERYTHING – no matter how small the detail – was written down and discussed. It all reminded me of the good ol’ days when Steve and I spent an hour on the phone each day to discuss THE block of the Raiders Fedora and just like back then, we (Paul and I) lost sleep over how to incorporate details that – accidentally – where added by David Morgan while he was unknowingly creating the most iconic bullwhip in movie history. I was AMAZED to see all the small details adding together – like a huge puzzle finally starting to show the picture it’s supposed to show. When done, we had no less than four(!) pages of specs. together for this project. Just like the turn on the Raiders Fedora, the bullwhips had a few “optical imperfections” (for the lack of better words), that made it so unique and so different from the visually “modernised” versions I was able to get my hands on in the meanwhile. We wrote them down. ALL of them. And whenever one of us came up with something new, it was double checked by the other.
Just to name a few:
- The thicknesses of the kangaroo leather strands were matched.
- The same species of kangaroo leather that David Morgan uses
- The strands were cut from the same areas of the skin
- The EVER so slight discoloration between each single strand, that you can only see on a brand new David Morgan bullwhip
- The slight change of force that was used during plaiting and of course in which parts of the whip to incorporate it
- The indentation on the handle just above the turks head butt knot
- The WIDE diamond shaped pattern on the handle
- The VERY subtle kinks on the stand drops
- The inner construction, which was done using the EXACT same internal construction measurements as the Morgan whips of the 1980’s. The only addition that Paul incorporated into the insides of this whip was some minimal reinforcement at the transition to increase the longevity and durability of the whip.
- etc. etc. etc. (as I wrote: we had four pages like this)
Round about one month ago, we had the feeling that all of the details had been noted, researched, compared, and accounted for. There just wasn’t a SINGLE detail to discuss any longer and after a few test plaitings – in which Paul incorporated the details we had put together – he started plaiting the very first AB bullwhip for me. I got it on Thursday, exactly one day before I left to the European summit to present this bullwhip to those attending. I only cracked it three times in the office, to make sure I wouldn’t make it dirty.
To say that I was thrilled would be a HUGE understatement. Paul incorporated EVERY little detail we had discussed. ALL of them! In my personal opinion, this is the most accurate Raiders bullwhip EVER made since Raiders. That is absolutely not meant as a pun to any other whipmaker, it’s just the result of over 18 months of hard work from two VERY EXTREME fanatics.
Paul I pull my hat for you. Due to the friendship we’ve developed over the past 1.5 years, you’ll know what that means.
And here she is:
While it usually takes a maximum of 2 roo hides to make a 10’ bullwhip, it took 5(!) to get this one just right, and approx. 50% more in time to plait it!
Due to the extreme list of specs that it takes to not “only” make a bullwhip that is exact down to the VERY last detail, but – thanks to the leather and the parts of the hides chosen – also will change its color over time EXACTLY like the screen used whips did, we have chosen to only offer a limited run of 8’ and 10’ of these. They’ll be available EXCLUSIVELY through AB and include a 3 DVD set of Robert Amper’s most excellent Whip Basics – A Beginners Guide, to guarantee safe and knowledgeable use.
Stay tuned for more details.
Regards,
Marc
I cannot even express just HOW proud I am, to FINALLY have – what *I* consider to be - the ULTIMATE Raiders bullwhip in my hands.
I hope you don’t mind a few details on how this actually came to be – after all it took us round about one and a half years to come this far. One and a half years of studying screen grabs, pictures of screen used bullwhips, vintage David Morgan whips from the Raiders era, details upon details.
Late 2007 I was contacted by one of the most talented whip makers regarding the AB shirts, and through our conversations came the concept of making an AB bullwhip: Paul Nolan of Midwestwhips. I knew NOTHING about the topic. Well, ok, I guess nothing is relative, but compared to you guys in here, it fits pretty well. What I knew, is basically what you can read on the main pages of Indygear.com and that’s pretty much it. I had bought a few whips myself – 10’ natural tan roo hide whips – and just like a newbie purchasing a pair of officers pinks, I thought that what I had was pretty much “it”. When Paul and I began talking about the idea of an AB bullwhip, I started to really learn. I learned to crack a whip (more or less), I learned what goes into making one (no, I did NOT start plaiting – I’m talking the theory only here) and I started to look at the screen grabs that showed the Raiders bullwhips up close. As I moved on, I started to write down the differences that I could see between the Raiders bullwhips and any other whip I could get into my fingers during this phase. Obviously, Paul shared this obsession, as he did the same in the meanwhile (and had been doing so for many many years, even including having examined a screen used Raiders whip in person!). While I was writing down the optical details, Paul examined a ruined David Morgan from the very early eighties, that is still in his possession, for the technical details. EVERYTHING – no matter how small the detail – was written down and discussed. It all reminded me of the good ol’ days when Steve and I spent an hour on the phone each day to discuss THE block of the Raiders Fedora and just like back then, we (Paul and I) lost sleep over how to incorporate details that – accidentally – where added by David Morgan while he was unknowingly creating the most iconic bullwhip in movie history. I was AMAZED to see all the small details adding together – like a huge puzzle finally starting to show the picture it’s supposed to show. When done, we had no less than four(!) pages of specs. together for this project. Just like the turn on the Raiders Fedora, the bullwhips had a few “optical imperfections” (for the lack of better words), that made it so unique and so different from the visually “modernised” versions I was able to get my hands on in the meanwhile. We wrote them down. ALL of them. And whenever one of us came up with something new, it was double checked by the other.
Just to name a few:
- The thicknesses of the kangaroo leather strands were matched.
- The same species of kangaroo leather that David Morgan uses
- The strands were cut from the same areas of the skin
- The EVER so slight discoloration between each single strand, that you can only see on a brand new David Morgan bullwhip
- The slight change of force that was used during plaiting and of course in which parts of the whip to incorporate it
- The indentation on the handle just above the turks head butt knot
- The WIDE diamond shaped pattern on the handle
- The VERY subtle kinks on the stand drops
- The inner construction, which was done using the EXACT same internal construction measurements as the Morgan whips of the 1980’s. The only addition that Paul incorporated into the insides of this whip was some minimal reinforcement at the transition to increase the longevity and durability of the whip.
- etc. etc. etc. (as I wrote: we had four pages like this)
Round about one month ago, we had the feeling that all of the details had been noted, researched, compared, and accounted for. There just wasn’t a SINGLE detail to discuss any longer and after a few test plaitings – in which Paul incorporated the details we had put together – he started plaiting the very first AB bullwhip for me. I got it on Thursday, exactly one day before I left to the European summit to present this bullwhip to those attending. I only cracked it three times in the office, to make sure I wouldn’t make it dirty.
To say that I was thrilled would be a HUGE understatement. Paul incorporated EVERY little detail we had discussed. ALL of them! In my personal opinion, this is the most accurate Raiders bullwhip EVER made since Raiders. That is absolutely not meant as a pun to any other whipmaker, it’s just the result of over 18 months of hard work from two VERY EXTREME fanatics.
Paul I pull my hat for you. Due to the friendship we’ve developed over the past 1.5 years, you’ll know what that means.
And here she is:
While it usually takes a maximum of 2 roo hides to make a 10’ bullwhip, it took 5(!) to get this one just right, and approx. 50% more in time to plait it!
Due to the extreme list of specs that it takes to not “only” make a bullwhip that is exact down to the VERY last detail, but – thanks to the leather and the parts of the hides chosen – also will change its color over time EXACTLY like the screen used whips did, we have chosen to only offer a limited run of 8’ and 10’ of these. They’ll be available EXCLUSIVELY through AB and include a 3 DVD set of Robert Amper’s most excellent Whip Basics – A Beginners Guide, to guarantee safe and knowledgeable use.
Stay tuned for more details.
Regards,
Marc
Last edited by Marc on Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
- TheExit148
- Professor of Archaeology
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Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
The AB name on anything = Top quality and super SA!
Great job Marc and Paul on this wonderful Raiders whip. It looks the part exactly, especially with the plaiting. The way its a little bulgy, like not super smooth across the plaiting looks EXACTLY like the hero whip from the film. Everything that the AB brand touches, is pure gold in this hobby. And Paul, great work building this beast of a whip You guys have made one heck of a whip.
Great job Marc and Paul on this wonderful Raiders whip. It looks the part exactly, especially with the plaiting. The way its a little bulgy, like not super smooth across the plaiting looks EXACTLY like the hero whip from the film. Everything that the AB brand touches, is pure gold in this hobby. And Paul, great work building this beast of a whip You guys have made one heck of a whip.
Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
Awesomeness. And you can pretty much name your price and have a guaranteed sell-out, especially if it's only available in a limited run. Good luck!
Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
That is beautiful, time to save up I guess.
*sitting patiently at the door waiting for my coming paycheck.
*sitting patiently at the door waiting for my coming paycheck.
-
- Legendary Adventurer
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- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:21 pm
Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
Marc, you have done it again my friend. wow!
- Canuck Digger
- Professor of Archaeology
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Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
Very nice one Paul!
But let's not forget that Lauren was there first...
Franco
But let's not forget that Lauren was there first...
Franco
Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
Sorry guys... gotta go to the AB site...
Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
It is always great to see how much passion all of you guys put in everything you do! Congratulations!!! (Yep, I didn't find anything about the whip in the AB site yet... )
Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
Wow, guys, that's fantastic! Marc always has something in the works and this is one I wasn't expecting. So much respect for your attention to detail, Marc. It looks like you picked the right tool for the job. Paul makes a great looking whip.
Gimme a call sometime, Marc, if you get the chance. We haven't spoken in a while.
Gimme a call sometime, Marc, if you get the chance. We haven't spoken in a while.
Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
I've come to thing of Paul and Lauren as a unit: The PauLauren...Sort of like Brangelina, or Benifer. Like that, but you know...With genuine talent and personality.Canuck Digger wrote:Very nice one Paul!
But let's not forget that Lauren was there first...
Franco
And knowing them as I do, I think I can clearly say that because it was a good idea, it was DEFINITELY Lauren's!
(they didn't make it to Annie Oakley this year, and neither did I, so I have to get my annual "Digs In" on Paul a little differently this year... )
- tomek9210
- Professor of Archaeology
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Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
Could you show us that ruined Morgan whip Paul ?
- Ranger36
- Professor of Archaeology
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- Location: I'm here to view the tapestries!
Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
That is beautiful!!! Fantastic news! I know this whip won't disappoint, due to the incredible work of Marc and Paul!
- Ranger36
- Professor of Archaeology
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:47 pm
- Location: I'm here to view the tapestries!
Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
If I may ask, is it too early to know the price?
Re: '81 Hero Bullwhip – A Dream (MY Dream) comming True
Thanks guys
The whip is now back on its way to me again, after Robert Amper of Whip Basics has taken upon himself to give it a very close technical inspection. While I can only see if the whip is made to the specs. discussed with Paul, I'm NO WHERE a professional whip artist, so I wanted Robert to check it in these regards. I received his review the other day and must say that I was pretty darn happy
Here it is:
Our favorite movie hit theatres in '81, right? And we all know, it's set in '36. So, these are the numbers
81 AB whips in 10' and 36 AB whips in 8'. That will give those who REALLY want one the chance to actually be able to do so (in opposite to 10-20 pieces) and both Paul, Lauren and I can then continue with our "normal lives" (yeah, right) ;D
The price will be up there with the Morgans, but I'll post more on that as soon as we've put a bottom line to it.
Regards,
Marc
The whip is now back on its way to me again, after Robert Amper of Whip Basics has taken upon himself to give it a very close technical inspection. While I can only see if the whip is made to the specs. discussed with Paul, I'm NO WHERE a professional whip artist, so I wanted Robert to check it in these regards. I received his review the other day and must say that I was pretty darn happy
Here it is:
Paul and I have discussed the number of whips that would be handlable for both Paul and Lauren (considering the time that goes into making such a whip) and me (considering I've still got a few other things to do ) and I came up with the following idea:Hi guys,
per Marc’s request, I’ve been testing the first AB whip, which was sent to me a couple of weeks ago. According to Marc, the goal was to create a whip that is 100% identical to the whips that were used in Raiders of the lost Ark and as far as I know, David Morgan made 16 of his 450 series for the movie back then. One of them was closely inspected (among other David Morgan bullwhips from that time) and notes taken to get all the details together for the whip I’m holding in my hands here.
I must admit, that I couldn’t care less, whether a whip is „screen accurate“ or not. It’s just not something that makes a whip good or bad IMO. To be perfectly honest, in fact there are a few things, that I would have preferred differently (which of course would take away from the screen accuracy but as I said, that is not my PERSONAL interest), however these things are only private preference and as such I won’t go into details on how I would have preferred a wider wrist loop ect.
Ok, back to the whip: the plaiting is spottless and continious all the way from the handle to the fall hitch. The strands are cut extremely exact and hence there are no gaps at all. The transition area is equally rounded – which gives the whip both durability and at the same time flexibility, to guarantee an equal transmission of the force comming from the handle all the way through the thong.
The heel knot is lead lined, which makes the entire whip moves equally and exact at ease. All it takes is a slight movement on the handle. Considering the immense length of 10’ (remember: I’m usually into 6-8’ target whips) this is highly appreciated. I’ve been testing the whip that Marc sent to me in every way possible and these are the results: The whip reacts very „clean“ to the movements I gave it and continioued straigh into the direction given. With some force, you can even use it for more complex routines. What I mean with „force“ is that due to the length, a 10’ whip in general is rather made for single cracks then routines. So while you can force the whip / your arm into making routines with it, it isn’t possible to make elegant figures with it. That is ONLY due to the weigth of this whip though and has nothing to do with the quality – which is top notch.
The entire whip rolls out very, very straightly, so in fact I could even use it for targeting purposes. To be more precisely, here’s what I did. I have cut some paper squares that I attached to my target stand. 6“x6“, 4“x4“, 2“x2“ and 1“x1“. The first squares – 6“x6“ and 4“x4“ – were easy to hit at the length of the whip plus my arm length. The hit rate of the 2“x2“ square was still over 90%. Only at 1“x1“ it became difficult to hit the target. However(!) to take such a small square as a reference would be plain unfair. Target whips are constructed entirely differently and hence you can’t expect the same results from a bullwhip of this length.
The entire whip made a valuable, high quality and solid impression on me. Its „behaviour“ is above critism and in fact my expectations were topped. I believe that this whip will be a gain for both – the collector, who wants an exact replica of the original Raides whip, as well as the one who’s seeking a high quality and well made whip for cracking purposes.
Once again: just because I prefer my whips slighly different, doesn’t mean that this isn’t a great whip. Of course this review is solely based on the whip I was handed from Marc. However, if all whips of this limited edition will be of the same quality – knowing Marc I don’t expect anything else – you’ll find these qualities in all of these whips.
Our favorite movie hit theatres in '81, right? And we all know, it's set in '36. So, these are the numbers
81 AB whips in 10' and 36 AB whips in 8'. That will give those who REALLY want one the chance to actually be able to do so (in opposite to 10-20 pieces) and both Paul, Lauren and I can then continue with our "normal lives" (yeah, right) ;D
The price will be up there with the Morgans, but I'll post more on that as soon as we've put a bottom line to it.
Regards,
Marc
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Hmmm. Not sure I really get the point of this. Morgan's prices are way way too high for a bullwhip - but then that's because he's the original maker. To pay that amount for two guys' aproximation of a screen used bullwhip (using 5 hides!?!) doesn't make sense to me. Okay, one of them is a respectable whipmaker and the other is an infamous nitpicker. It's still subjective conjecture - and it still won't be a better whip than a Del Carpio, a Strain, one of Nolan's regular Indy whips etc etc. And to make claims like "It will darken exactly the same as the screen used whips" is rather misleading. Any darkening is going to depend on many factors including exposure to heat and light and how and how often the whip is used. But then again, there are those who will unquestioningly go with it just because it says "AB". As if that's a fool proof gaurantee that it must be the best, most perfect, most screen accurate, value for money deal in geardom. Well, I for one am a sceptic. I've seen hats that look much more screen accurate than ABs and I've seen many whips that look more screen accurate to MY eyes. But of course, it's all subjective conjecture because I've never held the hero items in my hand. And I have held an 80s Morgan. And it didn't look much like this new offering (the butt knot was much courser for one thing). But then again I've rarely seen two Morgan whips that looked exactly alike.
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
I'll start off by agreeing with Moses on some conditions. I have to agree, the price is a big turn off. A lot of people around here are resorting to used whips, IOABS, and whips from Gus. While some may not be getting whips from the last few I mentioned, it's still high. Even a person who goes above and beyond the Indy whip like myself, I'd like to hear how you can justify that high of a price. I was still under a couple hundred less when I bought my 2 tone, 16 plait stocks (two of them) from a highly reputable whip maker. Those have more capabilities in performance compared to an Indy whip which will be limited on performance due to weight, handle length, and overall length of the thong. Of course a stock that's 5 foot will do more or anything shorter in general, but why pay that much for just general cracking purposes and basic targeting? I know this one of few whips out there that is highly accurate, but is it the accuracy that can justify such a price? There must be more than to it then I realize or that's being shared. Please do share Marc and Paul.
And of course I'll end off on a good note. I do think the whips looks rather good. I like the color and how accurate it does appear. Nolan does make a good whip so I'm sure it performs pretty well just as Robby stated. It would be nice to see some video footage of the whip being used and doing a little bit of target work.
And of course I'll end off on a good note. I do think the whips looks rather good. I like the color and how accurate it does appear. Nolan does make a good whip so I'm sure it performs pretty well just as Robby stated. It would be nice to see some video footage of the whip being used and doing a little bit of target work.
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Good luck with these.
Last edited by Dr._J on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
I think David's current Indy whips are significantly overpriced for their quality as of late, and I think HIS whips should be in the $2-300 range. This whip is going to be a much better quality, but I'm not sure it's going to be of such massive amazing pant-wetting quality that it should be twice the price of a Del Carpio or a Strain. It looks really nice... but so do a lot of other whips.
I'm not sure that investing so much time into making a whip THIS detailed is really worth it, is it? You can hardly tell the details are there, they're so small! There were different whips and each was different anyway! That's the beauty of having a whip! Sure, there's the width of the strands and the taper, and the ring knot being darker than the rest of the whip, and you can copy that... but to use 5 hides? And to say "It'll darken just like the originals?" How is that forseeable, let alone plannable? I don't know about all that. It seems like people would just be paying for the brand name, at this point. JMHO.
Shane
I'm not sure that investing so much time into making a whip THIS detailed is really worth it, is it? You can hardly tell the details are there, they're so small! There were different whips and each was different anyway! That's the beauty of having a whip! Sure, there's the width of the strands and the taper, and the ring knot being darker than the rest of the whip, and you can copy that... but to use 5 hides? And to say "It'll darken just like the originals?" How is that forseeable, let alone plannable? I don't know about all that. It seems like people would just be paying for the brand name, at this point. JMHO.
Shane
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Congratulations Marc
Is a peace of art, really, very beatifull whip.
Can you post a few pics with whip in your hand, for more ideia the knot and handle size?
Best regards.
Gaucho.
Is a peace of art, really, very beatifull whip.
Can you post a few pics with whip in your hand, for more ideia the knot and handle size?
Best regards.
Gaucho.
- Canuck Digger
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Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Woah Nelly! Hold on guys! Slow down here a minute.
First, it IS VERY SA, and for those who care very much about that, here is your chance. If you don't give a rat's behind about SA, then leave it alone and go your way. Someone will be very happy to have the chance to be able to get one. Yes, others have made them before, and it is always one's prerogative to buy their whip from whomever they wish.
Saying it will darken just like the screen-used whips is, I presume, a generalized statement; Paul knows what he is doing and he, like any other whipmaker, will tell you, use them and take care of them and they will ALL pretty much darken the same way; dark! End of story. Whatever small differences one may see in the tones of the leather when it is new, will tend to even out with time into a dark brown. I have a five year old that is very dark these days, but when I made it, then leather was so light it was almost white... There is no need to nit-pick...
As for the price, well that's Paul's business isn't it? If it's too expensive for you, fine, don't buy it. He doesn't need to justify anything. If I sound like I'm on the defensive it's because most people don't fully appreciate the work that goes into making a fine whip.
2-300$ for a Morgan? Come on, be serious. Why should THE MASTER sell his whips for cost? Even I won't do that! I would rather GIVE a whip to someone I like, rather than sell it at a deficit. Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. I won't say he couldn't bring his prices down a bit, sure that'd be great, but I'm sure he would if no one was buying them right? So there ARE people who are willing to pay that much for an original Morgan-Brand bullwhip, and so he has no reason to lower his prices. Remember, he is running a business, not a charity, and whatever one decides to charge is their own business and if folks are willing to pay top dollar for their work, then good for them I say!
If one prefers a stockwhip to a bullwhip, that's great! Stockwhips are amazing whips no doubt about it, and a well-made one deserves all the praise it gets. But one shouldn't compare the two to try and support a point of view that is already against the idea of paying XXX for a SA Indy bullwhip. You don't need to put one down just because it's not for you, you can simply pass on it.
Anyways, I did get what was being said in some of the posts; I'm not an idiot. If I am taking these comments on in point-form it's because despite the fact I agree a Morgan should be priced lower and a few other things I also agree with, they way it was put forth put me off; Many are those who make great claims about their work who don't honestly deserve it, and here these guys went and put together something FOR YOU, THE FANS, and all some can find to say is why this and justify that. Well, I'm sorry but I don't agree with that tone and I feel it's out of place here. Not putting anyone else down, but Paul IS a really good whipmaker and a genuinely nice guy and he deserves your respect if nothing else. So please, you can say what you want, but try to remain polite.
Thanks,
Franco
First, it IS VERY SA, and for those who care very much about that, here is your chance. If you don't give a rat's behind about SA, then leave it alone and go your way. Someone will be very happy to have the chance to be able to get one. Yes, others have made them before, and it is always one's prerogative to buy their whip from whomever they wish.
Saying it will darken just like the screen-used whips is, I presume, a generalized statement; Paul knows what he is doing and he, like any other whipmaker, will tell you, use them and take care of them and they will ALL pretty much darken the same way; dark! End of story. Whatever small differences one may see in the tones of the leather when it is new, will tend to even out with time into a dark brown. I have a five year old that is very dark these days, but when I made it, then leather was so light it was almost white... There is no need to nit-pick...
As for the price, well that's Paul's business isn't it? If it's too expensive for you, fine, don't buy it. He doesn't need to justify anything. If I sound like I'm on the defensive it's because most people don't fully appreciate the work that goes into making a fine whip.
2-300$ for a Morgan? Come on, be serious. Why should THE MASTER sell his whips for cost? Even I won't do that! I would rather GIVE a whip to someone I like, rather than sell it at a deficit. Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. I won't say he couldn't bring his prices down a bit, sure that'd be great, but I'm sure he would if no one was buying them right? So there ARE people who are willing to pay that much for an original Morgan-Brand bullwhip, and so he has no reason to lower his prices. Remember, he is running a business, not a charity, and whatever one decides to charge is their own business and if folks are willing to pay top dollar for their work, then good for them I say!
If one prefers a stockwhip to a bullwhip, that's great! Stockwhips are amazing whips no doubt about it, and a well-made one deserves all the praise it gets. But one shouldn't compare the two to try and support a point of view that is already against the idea of paying XXX for a SA Indy bullwhip. You don't need to put one down just because it's not for you, you can simply pass on it.
Anyways, I did get what was being said in some of the posts; I'm not an idiot. If I am taking these comments on in point-form it's because despite the fact I agree a Morgan should be priced lower and a few other things I also agree with, they way it was put forth put me off; Many are those who make great claims about their work who don't honestly deserve it, and here these guys went and put together something FOR YOU, THE FANS, and all some can find to say is why this and justify that. Well, I'm sorry but I don't agree with that tone and I feel it's out of place here. Not putting anyone else down, but Paul IS a really good whipmaker and a genuinely nice guy and he deserves your respect if nothing else. So please, you can say what you want, but try to remain polite.
Thanks,
Franco
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Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Canuck Digger wrote:Woah Nelly! Hold on guys! Slow down here a minute.
First, it IS VERY SA, and for those who care very much about that, here is your chance. If you don't give a rat's behind about SA, then leave it alone and go your way. Someone will be very happy to have the chance to be able to get one. Yes, others have made them before, and it is always one's prerogative to buy their whip from whomever they wish.
Saying it will darken just like the screen-used whips is, I presume, a generalized statement; Paul knows what he is doing and he, like any other whipmaker, will tell you, use them and take care of them and they will ALL pretty much darken the same way; dark! End of story. Whatever small differences one may see in the tones of the leather when it is new, will tend to even out with time into a dark brown. I have a five year old that is very dark these days, but when I made it, then leather was so light it was almost white... There is no need to nit-pick...
As for the price, well that's Paul's business isn't it? If it's too expensive for you, fine, don't buy it. He doesn't need to justify anything. If I sound like I'm on the defensive it's because most people don't fully appreciate the work that goes into making a fine whip.
2-300$ for a Morgan? Come on, be serious. Why should THE MASTER sell his whips for cost? Even I won't do that! I would rather GIVE a whip to someone I like, rather than sell it at a deficit. Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. I won't say he couldn't bring his prices down a bit, sure that'd be great, but I'm sure he would if no one was buying them right? So there ARE people who are willing to pay that much for an original Morgan-Brand bullwhip, and so he has no reason to lower his prices. Remember, he is running a business, not a charity, and whatever one decides to charge is their own business and if folks are willing to pay top dollar for their work, then good for them I say!
If one prefers a stockwhip to a bullwhip, that's great! Stockwhips are amazing whips no doubt about it, and a well-made one deserves all the praise it gets. But one shouldn't compare the two to try and support a point of view that is already against the idea of paying XXX for a SA Indy bullwhip. You don't need to put one down just because it's not for you, you can simply pass on it.
Anyways, I did get what was being said in some of the posts; I'm not an idiot. If I am taking these comments on in point-form it's because despite the fact I agree a Morgan should be priced lower and a few other things I also agree with, they way it was put forth put me off; Many are those who make great claims about their work who don't honestly deserve it, and here these guys went and put together something FOR YOU, THE FANS, and all some can find to say is why this and justify that. Well, I'm sorry but I don't agree with that tone and I feel it's out of place here. Not putting anyone else down, but Paul IS a really good whipmaker and a genuinely nice guy and he deserves your respect if nothing else. So please, you can say what you want, but try to remain polite.
Thanks,
Franco
Thank you very much. I don't think I can add much. I think Marc and Paul have spent a great deal of time and effort to make this whip and this is what they walk into. Come on guys. Please re-read what Marc first posted. Look at the effort that went into the smallest of details. Details that you will not see in a photo. I don't understand the attitude at all. People almost beg vendors to get more SA gear and props and this is the thanks when one puts the effort into it.
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Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
That's a very nice whip. Regarding SA, it certainly projects that hard-to-capture Raiders ruggedness which I usually only see in Morgans - very well done, Paul and Marc!
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Well, I for one wasn't trying to be rude. I have every respect for Paul Nolan as a whipmaker. I'm not sure I see the point of such a project. It seems to be a lot of cost and effort based on conjecture. And my concern is that the less experienced buyer might believe the only way to get an accurate Indy whip - that will darken like the movie whip - is to buy it from AB at a huge price. But really, unless you are an absolute SA nutter (we hardly even see Indy's whip very cleary in the movie so details are a matter of opinion), you can have just as good an Indy whip for much less money. As I said before, Joe Strain's, Bernardo's, and Nolan's whips are all very screen accurate, very well made, very good whips. And they will all darken like the movie whips. And notice the plural!!
So pardon me for not embracing this work that is being done FOR ME by these guys. I don't personally see the point of this whip. And before I get the usual SA arguments - remember it's all conjecture. Or was David Morgan involved in the project?
So pardon me for not embracing this work that is being done FOR ME by these guys. I don't personally see the point of this whip. And before I get the usual SA arguments - remember it's all conjecture. Or was David Morgan involved in the project?
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Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
It should be clear by now that it came off rude and still is. I don't think Marc meant that only this whip will darken like the movie whip. Only that it will darken and not stay the way it is in the photo. If you don't see the need for someone working hard for the small details and to be SA as possible. Maybe all these years I have been coming to the wrong place.moses wrote:Well, I for one wasn't trying to be rude. I have every respect for Paul Nolan as a whipmaker. I'm not sure I see the point of such a project. It seems to be a lot of cost and effort based on conjecture. And my concern is that the less experienced buyer might believe the only way to get an accurate Indy whip - that will darken like the movie whip - is to buy it from AB at a huge price. But really, unless you are an absolute SA nutter (we hardly even see Indy's whip very cleary in the movie so details are a matter of opinion), you can have just as good an Indy whip for much less money. As I said before, Joe Strain's, Bernardo's, and Nolan's whips are all very screen accurate, very well made, very good whips. And they will all darken like the movie whips. And notice the plural!!
So pardon me for not embracing this work that is being done FOR ME by these guys. I don't personally see the point of this whip. And before I get the usual SA arguments - remember it's all conjecture. Or was David Morgan involved in the project?
You don't have to embrace this work but maybe understanding that this thread is an announcement of a project and not a thread about who someone should buy from. Remember that Marc is a fan first here for many years before turning hat maker. He is very excited about this project that took a year and a half. Try to put yourself in his Aldens and imagine what it's like when someone post why he shouldn't have worked for that long or hard.
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Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
All right, before everyone starts getting bent out of shape; Take a time out...
For some reason since this post went up I’ve gotten several e-mails, txt messages, and even a couple phone calls asking me what I thought of this new whip. Well first and foremost I think this is a very good representation of a Raiders bullwhip made by Midwest whips. Clearly it’s designed to include many minute details accurate to the whips made by David Morgan during that time period.
This might come a shock to some but I have a little experience with the Raiders bullwhips and Indy whips in general . I’ve spent a lot of time and effort researching these whips not only for the Indy Gear site but also for my own personal interest and I've had the good fortune of examining late 70s and early 80s Morgan bullwhips, including screen used bullwhips (Raiders included) both in person and in photos. Over the years I’ve enjoyed discussing those many nuances in detail with various whip makers, including Paul. One thing I can tell you from my experience is that tying to recreate these bullwhips in exacting detail is no easy task. I know Paul and Lauren though, they are both excellent whip makers and I have no doubt in their ability to supply Marc with high quality, period accurate Raiders style bullwhips based on Marcs specifications, that also perform well. Besides this whip looks pretty similar to my own Raiders whip, so I think Paul did a good job in that regard too.
Clearly more effort, work and additional leather will cause the price to go up, that’s only natural and should be expected. Midwest whips are only the supplier though, not the retailer. Adventurebilt has the final say on how much they will cost and Marc has the right to charge what ever he sees fit. Now if you don’t agree with that, that’s ok. As long as it’s done respectably and you’re not being uncivil in this forum you can disagree with him about that until your blue in the face and that’s fine. If you don’t understand why there wouldn’t be a demand for a bullwhips like this, that’s fine too but regardless there are many others who do like the look of these older Indy whips and want them. Now I doubt David Morgan was involved directly with this project but knowing Paul, like myself I suspect he has corresponded with him in great detail about the old 450 series bullwhip and the fact that Paul has had several of those old whips in his possession over the years tells me that the details incorporated into this whip are a result of more then just the speculation of a couple of fans, I’m guessing Paul could confirm that himself.
So far though I haven’t come across anything that I’d consider distinctly rude in this thread; blunt, questioning and to the point, yes but not really rude and I expect this thread to stay like that. So perhaps that extra level of detail is worth that additional cost, perhaps it’s not. While this whip might be expensive compared to other similar whips, if Adventurbilt can justify the cost and get that asking price, more power too them. If this isn’t the whip for you though because of that reason, Thankfully there are other Indy bullwhips being made in a wide range of prices and quality.
Clearly Marc is excited with his new whip and by this project as well he should be. With that said though, I can’t help but think that some of the points he stressed in his opening sales pitch are a bit exaggerated and may even come off as a bit condescending if taken literally to those who know whips in greater detail and who know better. By his own admission though he isn’t really a “whip guy” so I doubt this was done deliberately. But claims like “The same species of kangaroo leather that David Morgan uses” or “The strands were cut from the same areas of the skin” for example or statements like these whips will “also will change its color over time EXACTLY like the screen used whips did” could easily be considered misleading because, one most whip makers already reproducing the Indy whips based off of David Morgan’s designs already cut the sets from the same area of the skin. Two they also get the same species kangaroo hide from the same tannery David gets his kangaroo skin. Three, natural tan kangaroo hide darkens and even though individual hides darken differently and at different rates based on all sorts of things even from the same species, no two Raiders whips are the exact same color anyway. Lastly, Regarding that slight discoloration between each single strand, “that you can only see on a brand new David Morgan bullwhip” I’ve seen countless new natural tan whips both by David Morgan and many other whip makers, sometimes they have that that discoloration between each strand and sometimes they don’t, that all depends on individual hides used to make the whip.
This whip to my knowledge though is a combination of the David Morgan Raiders bullwhips, It's not based off of any one specific film used whip but rather it's made to incorporate many of the elements present in the whips made by David Morgan during that time period and it clearly does just that. Of course I’m sure some of you will understand why I might disagree this is the most accurate Raiders bullwhip EVER made since Raiders . But in any case it’s clearly a great whip that very much looks the part and both Paul and Marc should be very pleased with it.
Dan
For some reason since this post went up I’ve gotten several e-mails, txt messages, and even a couple phone calls asking me what I thought of this new whip. Well first and foremost I think this is a very good representation of a Raiders bullwhip made by Midwest whips. Clearly it’s designed to include many minute details accurate to the whips made by David Morgan during that time period.
This might come a shock to some but I have a little experience with the Raiders bullwhips and Indy whips in general . I’ve spent a lot of time and effort researching these whips not only for the Indy Gear site but also for my own personal interest and I've had the good fortune of examining late 70s and early 80s Morgan bullwhips, including screen used bullwhips (Raiders included) both in person and in photos. Over the years I’ve enjoyed discussing those many nuances in detail with various whip makers, including Paul. One thing I can tell you from my experience is that tying to recreate these bullwhips in exacting detail is no easy task. I know Paul and Lauren though, they are both excellent whip makers and I have no doubt in their ability to supply Marc with high quality, period accurate Raiders style bullwhips based on Marcs specifications, that also perform well. Besides this whip looks pretty similar to my own Raiders whip, so I think Paul did a good job in that regard too.
Clearly more effort, work and additional leather will cause the price to go up, that’s only natural and should be expected. Midwest whips are only the supplier though, not the retailer. Adventurebilt has the final say on how much they will cost and Marc has the right to charge what ever he sees fit. Now if you don’t agree with that, that’s ok. As long as it’s done respectably and you’re not being uncivil in this forum you can disagree with him about that until your blue in the face and that’s fine. If you don’t understand why there wouldn’t be a demand for a bullwhips like this, that’s fine too but regardless there are many others who do like the look of these older Indy whips and want them. Now I doubt David Morgan was involved directly with this project but knowing Paul, like myself I suspect he has corresponded with him in great detail about the old 450 series bullwhip and the fact that Paul has had several of those old whips in his possession over the years tells me that the details incorporated into this whip are a result of more then just the speculation of a couple of fans, I’m guessing Paul could confirm that himself.
So far though I haven’t come across anything that I’d consider distinctly rude in this thread; blunt, questioning and to the point, yes but not really rude and I expect this thread to stay like that. So perhaps that extra level of detail is worth that additional cost, perhaps it’s not. While this whip might be expensive compared to other similar whips, if Adventurbilt can justify the cost and get that asking price, more power too them. If this isn’t the whip for you though because of that reason, Thankfully there are other Indy bullwhips being made in a wide range of prices and quality.
Clearly Marc is excited with his new whip and by this project as well he should be. With that said though, I can’t help but think that some of the points he stressed in his opening sales pitch are a bit exaggerated and may even come off as a bit condescending if taken literally to those who know whips in greater detail and who know better. By his own admission though he isn’t really a “whip guy” so I doubt this was done deliberately. But claims like “The same species of kangaroo leather that David Morgan uses” or “The strands were cut from the same areas of the skin” for example or statements like these whips will “also will change its color over time EXACTLY like the screen used whips did” could easily be considered misleading because, one most whip makers already reproducing the Indy whips based off of David Morgan’s designs already cut the sets from the same area of the skin. Two they also get the same species kangaroo hide from the same tannery David gets his kangaroo skin. Three, natural tan kangaroo hide darkens and even though individual hides darken differently and at different rates based on all sorts of things even from the same species, no two Raiders whips are the exact same color anyway. Lastly, Regarding that slight discoloration between each single strand, “that you can only see on a brand new David Morgan bullwhip” I’ve seen countless new natural tan whips both by David Morgan and many other whip makers, sometimes they have that that discoloration between each strand and sometimes they don’t, that all depends on individual hides used to make the whip.
This whip to my knowledge though is a combination of the David Morgan Raiders bullwhips, It's not based off of any one specific film used whip but rather it's made to incorporate many of the elements present in the whips made by David Morgan during that time period and it clearly does just that. Of course I’m sure some of you will understand why I might disagree this is the most accurate Raiders bullwhip EVER made since Raiders . But in any case it’s clearly a great whip that very much looks the part and both Paul and Marc should be very pleased with it.
Dan
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Actually, that's basically what I wanted to say. I didn't want to be offensive, just state my misgivings. I'm sure it's an excellent whip, but personally I think Pauls whips are screen accurate and good enough anyway. And so are the whips of many other whipmakers. But I guess there are some people who desire more - fair enough.BullWhipBorton wrote: Clearly Marc is excited with his new whip and by this project as well he should be. With that said though, I can’t help but think that some of the points he stressed in his opening sales pitch are a bit exaggerated and may even come off as a bit condescending if taken literally to those who know whips in greater detail and who know better. By his own admission though he isn’t really a “whip guy” so I doubt this was done deliberately. But claims like “The same species of kangaroo leather that David Morgan uses” or “The strands were cut from the same areas of the skin” for example or statements like these whips will “also will change its color over time EXACTLY like the screen used whips did” could easily be considered misleading because, one most whip makers already reproducing the Indy whips based off of David Morgan’s designs already cut the sets from the same area of the skin. Two they also get the same species kangaroo hide from the same tannery David gets his kangaroo skin. Three, natural tan kangaroo hide darkens and even though individual hides darken differently and at different rates based on all sorts of things even from the same species, no two Raiders whips are the exact same color anyway. Lastly, Regarding that slight discoloration between each single strand, “that you can only see on a brand new David Morgan bullwhip” I’ve seen countless new natural tan whips both by David Morgan and many other whip makers, sometimes they have that that discoloration between each strand and sometimes they don’t, that all depends on individual hides used to make the whip.
This whip to my knowledge though is a combination of the David Morgan Raiders bullwhips, It's not based off of any one specific film used whip but rather it's made to incorporate many of the elements present in the whips made by David Morgan during that time period and it clearly does just that. Of course I’m sure some of you will understand why I might disagree this is the most accurate Raiders bullwhip EVER made since Raiders . But in any case it’s clearly a great whip that very much looks the part and both Paul and Marc should be very pleased with it.
Dan
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Personally, I didn't see anything that I would call unduly rude. I can certainly see why people in the business of hand crafting things (whips, hats, etc.) may have seen it that way, but I think it's a matter of perspective. While it is perfectly within a business' rights to charge whatever they want when the market supports it, I would think it's also perfectly ok for a potential customer to ask 'why'. In asking 'why', it gives the business more opportunity to chime in and clarify and/or justify the price and reasons (even though the first post was pretty detailed), and this will either convince the customer that it's worth it, or convince him that he would be satisfied with a less expensive product.
Personally, a few years ago, I would have said you're crazy for spending x amount on a screen accurate whip or custom hat, but now I have done just that. Am I ready to spend an even larger sum on one of these new ultra SA whips, no, but I've learned by being in this hobby to never say 'never'.
Regards,
Kenton
Personally, a few years ago, I would have said you're crazy for spending x amount on a screen accurate whip or custom hat, but now I have done just that. Am I ready to spend an even larger sum on one of these new ultra SA whips, no, but I've learned by being in this hobby to never say 'never'.
Regards,
Kenton
Last edited by ksteryous on Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Thanks for chiming in, Dan. You pretty much explained my point of view too (like Moses) but better, and also helped make some things clear to me.
Firstly though, with respect to Canuck Digger - I was exaggerating a little when I said DM should sell his whips for $2-300. That's crazy, I know. I just don't think his whips are anywhere near worth $770. Not anymore, anyway. But that's another thread...
Moving on...
I'm one of those people that just doesn't see the need for such time to be spent on this whip looking for the details and making it like that. The details being included are so minute that I don't know who would notice. What makes this whip better than a Borton Raiders DelCarpio Mk III, or the Strain 25th Anniversary Raiders whip? Sergei already took measurements of a screen used Raiders whip and they're up for everybody to use on the main page.
Yes!: This whip looks like a beautiful whip. I'm not saying it's @#$%. Yes!: This whip looks like an old school Morgan.
This is what I'm saying... it looks to me like if you bought something like this, you'd be paying about $300 more than a standard Midwest Indy Whip - which looks just as good - except this one will take twice as long to make, use twice the hide, and include all those awesome details you won't be able to distinguish from a "wrong" whip.
If disagreeing or questioning is being frowned on now, I'll stay out of this thread.
Shane
Firstly though, with respect to Canuck Digger - I was exaggerating a little when I said DM should sell his whips for $2-300. That's crazy, I know. I just don't think his whips are anywhere near worth $770. Not anymore, anyway. But that's another thread...
Moving on...
I'm one of those people that just doesn't see the need for such time to be spent on this whip looking for the details and making it like that. The details being included are so minute that I don't know who would notice. What makes this whip better than a Borton Raiders DelCarpio Mk III, or the Strain 25th Anniversary Raiders whip? Sergei already took measurements of a screen used Raiders whip and they're up for everybody to use on the main page.
Yes!: This whip looks like a beautiful whip. I'm not saying it's @#$%. Yes!: This whip looks like an old school Morgan.
This is what I'm saying... it looks to me like if you bought something like this, you'd be paying about $300 more than a standard Midwest Indy Whip - which looks just as good - except this one will take twice as long to make, use twice the hide, and include all those awesome details you won't be able to distinguish from a "wrong" whip.
If disagreeing or questioning is being frowned on now, I'll stay out of this thread.
Shane
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Ok, lemme chime in here.
This whip is what I - in my very personal opinion - consider to be the ultimate replica. Just BECAUSE it even has the details that most people wouldn't even notice. To come up with specs. that are beyond good and evil, that's me in a nutshell Go ahead and ask my felter / sweatbandmaker / Alden who's their most insane customer when it comes to specs. Not everyone's cup of tea - by FAR not - but that's just me.
Some friends that I discussed this project with, while it was going on, said that I'm nuts, others asked me when they could place an order. Everyone's free to have their own opinion, all I'm asking for, is to let me have mine.
Though I could HARDLY add anything to what Dan wrote, I'd just like to confirm that if I came off as deliberately mentioning details that are standard on a high end whip as being exclusive on this one, please accept my apologies. This was not my intention. It's solely due to my lack of knowledge - as Dan expected. That is also why I sent it to Robby for closer technical inspection.
As Dan ALSO expected, the price is due to the higher amount of leather and time used to create these. Again, while this may not be everyones cup of tea, it is my PERSONAL preference as well as a few others. There is however yet another factor on the price, that - like it or not (I for one surely don't) - makes the price go up. German taxes (import, export, sales, VAT etc. etc. etc.). Yes, I've mentioned that on other topics and no, to this date I still haven't found a legal way of getting around that subject. I don't like it neither, but that's the law over here and as long as I live here I'll adapt to this.
Nobody is forced to purchase one of these whips - it's just an offering of something I hadn't been able to find before and something that I like. No more, no less. If the so often quoted "good enough" is what you're after - NOTHING wrong in that. Heck, I have customers who tell me NOT to turn a Raiders Fedora, as it was an ACCIDENT. However I personally think this is part of the Raiders gear. Just like the off center pocket placement on (at least SOME of) the jackets. To incoorperate such details - unfortunately - are a price driver. You could as well ask why to buy a Nowak, G&B, Todd's custom made Raiders jacket, if you can get a Wested (the original maker) for less. And I guess you'll get as many different answers as you'd ask people. So if you ask me, why should buy such an expensive whip from me, the answer would be the same: if you like it and you want to spend that money for it - do so. If you don't like it or it's too expensive, just don't. I've never pushed anyone into buying something from me and I won't start doing so now.
Regards,
Marc
This whip is what I - in my very personal opinion - consider to be the ultimate replica. Just BECAUSE it even has the details that most people wouldn't even notice. To come up with specs. that are beyond good and evil, that's me in a nutshell Go ahead and ask my felter / sweatbandmaker / Alden who's their most insane customer when it comes to specs. Not everyone's cup of tea - by FAR not - but that's just me.
Some friends that I discussed this project with, while it was going on, said that I'm nuts, others asked me when they could place an order. Everyone's free to have their own opinion, all I'm asking for, is to let me have mine.
Though I could HARDLY add anything to what Dan wrote, I'd just like to confirm that if I came off as deliberately mentioning details that are standard on a high end whip as being exclusive on this one, please accept my apologies. This was not my intention. It's solely due to my lack of knowledge - as Dan expected. That is also why I sent it to Robby for closer technical inspection.
As Dan ALSO expected, the price is due to the higher amount of leather and time used to create these. Again, while this may not be everyones cup of tea, it is my PERSONAL preference as well as a few others. There is however yet another factor on the price, that - like it or not (I for one surely don't) - makes the price go up. German taxes (import, export, sales, VAT etc. etc. etc.). Yes, I've mentioned that on other topics and no, to this date I still haven't found a legal way of getting around that subject. I don't like it neither, but that's the law over here and as long as I live here I'll adapt to this.
Nobody is forced to purchase one of these whips - it's just an offering of something I hadn't been able to find before and something that I like. No more, no less. If the so often quoted "good enough" is what you're after - NOTHING wrong in that. Heck, I have customers who tell me NOT to turn a Raiders Fedora, as it was an ACCIDENT. However I personally think this is part of the Raiders gear. Just like the off center pocket placement on (at least SOME of) the jackets. To incoorperate such details - unfortunately - are a price driver. You could as well ask why to buy a Nowak, G&B, Todd's custom made Raiders jacket, if you can get a Wested (the original maker) for less. And I guess you'll get as many different answers as you'd ask people. So if you ask me, why should buy such an expensive whip from me, the answer would be the same: if you like it and you want to spend that money for it - do so. If you don't like it or it's too expensive, just don't. I've never pushed anyone into buying something from me and I won't start doing so now.
Regards,
Marc
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Hi Marc,
Thanks for popping back in to give your thoughts. I hope I haven't offended you or Paul with my own opinions, but I congratulate you and him on coming up with such a good looking bullwhip. Good luck with this!
Shane
Thanks for popping back in to give your thoughts. I hope I haven't offended you or Paul with my own opinions, but I congratulate you and him on coming up with such a good looking bullwhip. Good luck with this!
Shane
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Very well said Dan. I'm not sure where people thought that the thread was going rude. I just have to agree with what was said. I did not demand that Marc justify his price, but simply ask him to explain out of curiosity. I'm glad some of the claims made in the very first post were explained as some came off misleading. One of the great things about COW is that we can freely discuss items with the vendor and I'm glad that Marc has posted in return! I would love to own one of these myself but don't have the money available. In general, I think questioning a vendor can help them out. If they decide to explain their price, I think it can persuade more people to buy assuming they set their price within legitimate reasoning.
And as for Canuck, I was simply using the stockwhip idea to try to show what I was asking. I know I can't compare, but I wasn't getting how a price could go up much higher then 2 whips combined. But now I see.
Also...is the final price around that of Morgans due to the fact that the dvd's are being included? Or are the dvd's not tacked onto the price yet either? That could make the difference.
And as for Canuck, I was simply using the stockwhip idea to try to show what I was asking. I know I can't compare, but I wasn't getting how a price could go up much higher then 2 whips combined. But now I see.
Also...is the final price around that of Morgans due to the fact that the dvd's are being included? Or are the dvd's not tacked onto the price yet either? That could make the difference.
- midwestwhips
- Vendor
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Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
First of all, thank you for all of your comments. As Marc mentioned, we have been working out the details of this whip for a very long time now, and athough it has certainly been an enjoyable undertaking, any whipmaker will agree that making a whip to such exacting specifications is no easy task either (Hi Bernardo ). This individual whip is not physically constructed with five kangaroo skins, but instead this specific final whip took a total of cutting five hides to get every single detail just right to achieve the exact look in the braiding of the thong and handle that Marc was looking for (and this was even after the multitude of prototypes and test pieces). I am certainly hoping that the future whips in this limited run will not require as many, as it adds quite a bit more time and work than these details already require! Some of the other details Marc listed also might seem obvious and maybe even condescending to a lot of us, but they're honestly not always obvious to everyone. And I think that the "darkening exactly like the screen used whips" comment refers both to the natural tan color (because some folks do prefer to skip straight to ordering a saddle tan or whiskey whip) and to the fact that Marc specifically didn't want the ring knot or butt knot to be artificially darkened using the common methods (which can give the leather a slightly peach/tangerine hue) before they were tied, but instead very slightly darkening them using the oils from our hands after tying the knots. While this is extremely subtle when new, it should give a bit of a head start as the whip continues to darken naturally through use and time. The logic behind this detail that we both agreed on is that the original Raiders whips didn't have artificially darkened knots when they were brand new either. Dirt and grease from the user's hands are the main factor in giving the knots a darker appearance, and this doesn't occur straight out of the box brand new, but instead with time and use.
I have always personally considered MidWestWhips' best specialty to be our ability to create truly custom whips, and in the Indy world in particular, that means that a lot of the Indy fans who buy whips from us are able to talk at length with us about exactly what details they consider to be important in an Indy whip, and we do our best to incorporate those details into the finished whip. This whip, and the whips to come in this limited edition, are the result of an extra long conversation with a customer - namely Marc. From my personal experience and from the experiences I've heard about from many other avid Indy fans, Adventurebuilt's reputation is built on both screen accuracy and durability, and those two virtues were Marc's priorities in developing the details that we incorporated into this bullwhip.
Like Dan mentioned, we are of course the "suppliers," the same as we also supply other places like Western Stage Props. And just like we don't have control over their prices, Marc from Adventurebuilt also has the the ability to decide what price he will sell these whips for, based on the same factors that go into providing any of his products. Someone earlier said that with this whip, people would just be paying extra for a "brand name." While I can understand why it may seem that way at first glance to some people, that's not exactly the way I see it. With whips in this run, a person is paying for the qualities that Adventurebuilt has staked its reputation on - screen accuracy married with durability, the year and a half of time, research, and dedication Marc has put into the details, and of course - as with all products coming from any sort of business - some amount of profit to compensate for that effort. With a David Morgan whip, it does seem there is a certain amount that you're paying for a name, I agree. But with Adventurebuilt, I think the distinction can be made that you're paying for a reputation instead, along with of course a lot of hard work. Like Adventurebuilt's Raiders hats and boots and shirts, this whip is Marc's Raiders bullwhip. With some decision-making and research of his own, along with advice and conversation based on our own personal research and experience, Marc has developed a design that he feels excited about adding to his line of Adventurebuilt products, and we are excited to produce them.
And not to worry, I'm not offended in the least bit. It is good that questions are asked, so that they can be answered. And if anyone has any further questions feel free to post to this thread, or email or PM either of us directly, and we will do our best to answer them to your satisfaction. There really are so many details that go into not only making this particular whip, but also the entire journey.
Regards,
Paul Nolan
www.MidWestWhips.com
I have always personally considered MidWestWhips' best specialty to be our ability to create truly custom whips, and in the Indy world in particular, that means that a lot of the Indy fans who buy whips from us are able to talk at length with us about exactly what details they consider to be important in an Indy whip, and we do our best to incorporate those details into the finished whip. This whip, and the whips to come in this limited edition, are the result of an extra long conversation with a customer - namely Marc. From my personal experience and from the experiences I've heard about from many other avid Indy fans, Adventurebuilt's reputation is built on both screen accuracy and durability, and those two virtues were Marc's priorities in developing the details that we incorporated into this bullwhip.
Like Dan mentioned, we are of course the "suppliers," the same as we also supply other places like Western Stage Props. And just like we don't have control over their prices, Marc from Adventurebuilt also has the the ability to decide what price he will sell these whips for, based on the same factors that go into providing any of his products. Someone earlier said that with this whip, people would just be paying extra for a "brand name." While I can understand why it may seem that way at first glance to some people, that's not exactly the way I see it. With whips in this run, a person is paying for the qualities that Adventurebuilt has staked its reputation on - screen accuracy married with durability, the year and a half of time, research, and dedication Marc has put into the details, and of course - as with all products coming from any sort of business - some amount of profit to compensate for that effort. With a David Morgan whip, it does seem there is a certain amount that you're paying for a name, I agree. But with Adventurebuilt, I think the distinction can be made that you're paying for a reputation instead, along with of course a lot of hard work. Like Adventurebuilt's Raiders hats and boots and shirts, this whip is Marc's Raiders bullwhip. With some decision-making and research of his own, along with advice and conversation based on our own personal research and experience, Marc has developed a design that he feels excited about adding to his line of Adventurebuilt products, and we are excited to produce them.
And not to worry, I'm not offended in the least bit. It is good that questions are asked, so that they can be answered. And if anyone has any further questions feel free to post to this thread, or email or PM either of us directly, and we will do our best to answer them to your satisfaction. There really are so many details that go into not only making this particular whip, but also the entire journey.
Regards,
Paul Nolan
www.MidWestWhips.com
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Thanks Paul for the explanation! How's my old Expedition treatin' you?
Regards, Dr. J
Regards, Dr. J
- Satipo
- Professor of Archaeology
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- Location: London, England
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Just had a thought - shouldn't you add the little leather label-tie to the wrist loop in order to complete the look?
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
And if anyone has any further questions feel free to post to this thread, or email or PM either of us directly, and we will do our best to answer them to your satisfaction.
I have a question, how will this new endeavor that you and Lauren have undertaken effect the current custom orders that you already have, Huh? huh?
Just kidding , I couldn't resist as usual, ha ha ha.
That whip looks amazing, well done, but I wouldn't expect nothing less from the likes of you two mate.
PS. I love that fall leather that I got from you, seems so much easier to round off.
All the best.
Jim J.
- binkmeisterRick
- Stealer of Wallets
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- Location: Chattering with these old bones
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
Paul, I certainly hope you can bring one of these to show folks at the Queen Mary summit this November.
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - Here's how many there'll be
That is the plan Bink
Well... time to bring out the official announcement:
Hi gents,
thanks for all the kind pm’s, e-mails and even phone calls, from those who – although anything but cheap – would like to order one of these limited editions bullwhips from me.
Incl. shipping they’ll be 649 Euro for the 10’s and 549 Euros for the 8’s (I know, I know… as I said, nobody HAS to buy one). I will be taking orders from today on and continue to do so until the lists are full (of course we’ll start shipping them as they arrive). Each whip will come with a COA, saying exactly which number your whip is. Of course, you can chose the number if you have something like a “lucky number” or you were born in ’76 for example. The only number gone is the number 1 on the 10’, as that would be the whip shown above.
If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask me. I will try to answer them as good as I can.
Regards,
Marc
Well... time to bring out the official announcement:
Hi gents,
thanks for all the kind pm’s, e-mails and even phone calls, from those who – although anything but cheap – would like to order one of these limited editions bullwhips from me.
Incl. shipping they’ll be 649 Euro for the 10’s and 549 Euros for the 8’s (I know, I know… as I said, nobody HAS to buy one). I will be taking orders from today on and continue to do so until the lists are full (of course we’ll start shipping them as they arrive). Each whip will come with a COA, saying exactly which number your whip is. Of course, you can chose the number if you have something like a “lucky number” or you were born in ’76 for example. The only number gone is the number 1 on the 10’, as that would be the whip shown above.
If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask me. I will try to answer them as good as I can.
Regards,
Marc
-
- Legendary Adventurer
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Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
Marc, putt me down for #6 in a 8 foot.
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
Will do my friend
Regards,
Marc
Regards,
Marc
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
I'd like to order a 10' please
Would it be possible for me to wait maybe 2-3 days with the payment itself? (asked my grandma to loan me the money and god-bless-her she agreed )
Would it be possible for me to wait maybe 2-3 days with the payment itself? (asked my grandma to loan me the money and god-bless-her she agreed )
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
Selvfoelgelig! Hvilket nummer skal jeg reservere for dig?
Of course! Which number would you like me to reserve for you?
Regards,
Marc
Of course! Which number would you like me to reserve for you?
Regards,
Marc
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
Jeg tror ikke rigtig på talmagi hehe, men min kammerat's lykketal er 7 så kan du reservere den?
I don't really believe in the magic of numbers, but my buddy's luckynumber is 7, so could you reserve that?
I don't really believe in the magic of numbers, but my buddy's luckynumber is 7, so could you reserve that?
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
10' no. 7 reserved
Regards,
Marc
Regards,
Marc
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
great, I'll send you a mail when I'm ready to pay, I presume it's via paypal as always.
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
Or directly to my account. As you prefer.
Regards,
Marc
Regards,
Marc
Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
We can discuss that later via e-mail, that's probably the best. I'll send you a mail when I get the money from grandma, shouldn't take too long.
- Ravenswood
- Archaeologist
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Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
I solemnly swear with one hand on the Grail Diary that I would RUSH to get this whip if my finances allowed it! I can honestly say that I have never seen a whip that incorporates so many intrinsic details unique to the Raiders whip. And I acknowledge there were several subtly different whips used for the film, but you gotta admit, that even with the inevitable variances between each Raiders screen used whip, they all have that "look".
I just wanna say that aside from my financial difficulties, I'm the guy you are catering to. I am heartened to see this kind of work and attention to detail. An I'm sure in no time at all (relatively speaking of course) there will be several satisfied customers.
I see there are already takers!
I sadly, may have to let this golden opportunity pass me by...
I just wanna say that aside from my financial difficulties, I'm the guy you are catering to. I am heartened to see this kind of work and attention to detail. An I'm sure in no time at all (relatively speaking of course) there will be several satisfied customers.
I see there are already takers!
I sadly, may have to let this golden opportunity pass me by...
-
- Moderator
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Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
Marc, Given how this thread is progressing and that now that you are officially taking orders I might suggest starting a new thread topic in the vendors or classified area to announce this project and handle the orders themselves. That way we can leave this thread open to any questions, concerns and general discussions about the new AB bullwhip itself.
Dan
Dan
- G-Roberts
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Re: Ltd. edition AB bullwhip - taking orders now
Sorry for the late input guys. I think this is a fantastic idea and a fantastic whip. If I had the money I would buy one right away. Well done to Marc and Paul for your hard work and dedication to creating THE "SA" Raiders whip for all us gear heads. I take my fedora off to you guys!
All the best, Graeme.
All the best, Graeme.