200 XXX BEAVER FELT FEDORA?????

[beaverlid]

Does anyone know what the claim of 200 xxx beaver felt is. I bought a fedora and it was from a custom hatter who claimed it was 100% beaver. Well that's great! So what is the 200 xxx? Is it just the hatter trying to make the felt look more appealing or is it something that is actually important to look for in a beaver body? Any info will be greatly appreciated.

Beaverlid

[mufflowne]

Every hatted has a diferrent X standart. And it really is just to make it look more amazing. Basically what they're doing is taking a $1 bill, scribbling out the one and writing in 2000000000000 and then they go looking to 7-11 for change.

[Snapbrim76]

Yeah I had this problem when I was in Florida buying a Resistol. Mine says "4X BEAVER". So I asked the sales assistant what all the different numbers and Xs meant. He explained it like this:

Each name brand will have different qualities (and prices) of beaver felt. Mine was a low grade beaver as I couldn't afford anything else.

I think it's just how highly that company grade their own varying felts.

[beaverlid]

That is what I figured. The felt is great. I have no complaints. Being a novice in quality felts I really only know that the Beaver feels alot better then the wool felt I had prior. I just have not seen it on Adventurebilt's ad or Penmans. S oI wanted to know what it was. I bet in the old days it actually ment something. Some for chiming in.

Beaverlid

[mississippilong]

well post pics of this 200 X hat. See what the experts here will grade it.

[beaverlid]

Ok I would love to post the pic. Do I have to post from an offsite account or can I attch the pics directly into the thread. It would not let me post directly into a thread and I don't have any photo sharing sites as yet. Any recommendations?

[Holt]

photobucket.com

[maboot38]

Yeah, I think photobucket works really well. I've been using the same account for postings on several forums and it really has worked fantastic. In addition to hosting photos, you can also edit, crop, adjust size, etc.

[beaverlid]

obviously not. Lets try again.

[beaverlid]

thanks for the photobucket advice. Very easy...

[Holt]

Sure. Very nice hat!

[maboot38]

What river is that, beaverlid?

[beaverlid]

That is the James River in Virginia. The beaver felt held up very well to the rain and one unintentional swim. That pic is two days after a good soaking. I had no choice but to let it dry on my head by direct sunlight. The ribbon suffered a little but the fedora is as good as before it got wet.

[beaverlid]

Thanks for the compliment of the hat. I just emailed Steve on getting an adventurebilt before the August 31 price hike. I am eagerly awaiting his response to see if that deal is still good. I am learning that fedoras are like smoking pipes. If you are really into them you end up owning multiple different ones. I can see me spending way to much money on all of the wonderful fedoras out there. I feel an adventurebilt is a must and also Penman Hat co. is on my list.

[Snapbrim76]

I am partial to a pipe and I know exactly what you mean. Both pipes and hats are very personal and I'd like to get one of each of my favourites (both pipes and hats). AB, AB Deluxe and Penman seem to be the collector's must-have.

[BendingOak]

Hard to tell with that photo and I can only comment on a hat if I have it in my hands at one point or a truck load of high res. photo's from every angle possible. The reason you don't see XXXXX on our hats because they would mean nothing. We use nothing but 100% beaver and its the best in the country. The only beaver body I like better would be what Marc uses and it's the best you will find. The x's meant something at one point but there is no standard anymore.

[Band Director Jones]

Here is an excerpt from "Stetson Hats 1865-1970 and the John B. Stetson Company" that talks about the subject of "X's" in hats.



While this was Stetson's policy, most hat makers used the same system. Now day, the "X" mean nothing. For example, a local hatter (who has made hats for some very famous people) custom makes hats from 1X to 1000X and beyond. The thing that determines the "X" rating in his hats are 1) the quality of felt (few of which are pure beaver, more on that later), 2) the extras (hat band, sweatband, liner, brim edge), 3) is he personally makes it instead of one of his employees (he has admitted that a hat made by him usually triples the "X" rating).

As to the amount of beaver felt in a hat, this really comes down to the hatter to reveal this as the "X" doesn't indicate this any longer. The hatter I spoke of earlier has repeatedly told me that pure beaver hats come in only natural color (a greyish, light tan) or silver belly/white. According to him, pure beaver felt cannot be made any "color" such as brown, black, medium to dark grey, etc. due to the fact that the hat will not accept the dye. As such, most of his high "X" rated hats are not pure beaver. Heck, most of them feel like sand paper compared to my apparently pure beaver, beaver AB (by the way, he has seen it, felt it, and claimed it to be a non-beaver hat, then claimed to to a better job, but not in beaver felt since that color in beaver felt doesn't exist ). But enough of that...

The only ways to tell if a hat is pure beaver felt, or to determine how much beaver is in it (short of performing forensic testing) is to find a hatter you trust, learn how a beaver hat feels (once you know how beaver feels, you won't have to ask), or just take it on faith.

[BendingOak]

Who's the hatter?

[beaverlid]

Bending Oak, you will hopefully soon be examining my fedora up close as I am on your waiting list for a reblock, new ribbon, and possible pounce.

Band director Jones, thanks for the good article and answer you posted. It gives me a better clue about the x factor from hatters. I also want to compliment the hatters that stand on the quality of their craft vs useless labels that serve no real purpose. I am of the belief that if you have to tell everybody how great your product is, there might be a reason.

[binkmeisterRick]

I love the pic, beaverlid! (But do you mind reducing the size a bit, as per the image rules? 640x480 pixels )

But I agree with those who say the x's don't necessarily mean much these days. Yes, it did once, but the standard is long gone. Now it seems to be a marketing ploy by some to convince folks that it must be higher quality just because it's labeled with more x's.

[beaverlid]

I will indeed reduce the size. Sorry about that. Let me go to photobucket and fix.

[BendingOak]

Bending Oak, you will hopefully soon be examining my fedora up close as I am on your waiting list for a reblock, new ribbon, and possible pounce.

Band director Jones, thanks for the good article and answer you posted. It gives me a better clue about the x factor from hatters. I also want to compliment the hatters that stand on the quality of their craft vs useless labels that serve no real purpose. I am of the belief that if you have to tell everybody how great your product is, there might be a reason.

right on. I'll give you my opinion over the phone.

[beaverlid]

I look forward to the inspection you will give the fedora. Just be brutal and honest as I am thick skinned. I like the fedora and it has held up very well tot the wet elements. I will say that for what I paid for it it was poorly pounced. If I scrutinize it I can see minut longer than normal hairs in places that really could be pounced out I am guessing. When you receive it bending Oak, I am guessing you will feel sorry for the poor beaver and repounce it. You don't even have to ask. I authorize whatever you feel is necessary and trust you will charge a fair price.

[Band Director Jones]

Who's the hatter?

The hatter is Paris Hatters.

[kiltie]

Ahhhhh, Paris. Strange place that.
I've had hats reblocked there, washed, new sweatband...various other things done. The guy is friendly enough, but he knows he's the only game in town ( not counting the western wear places ). I used to hang on his every word ( been going in there since high school; about eighteen or so years... ), but it's only been recently that I've kinda had to scratch my head at some of the things he's got to say. After picking up some stuff at Fedora Lounge and here... Naturally it's up to the individual to weed out what's true and useful to him - and that goes for any venue. I did go in wearing an Adventurebilt one time, though. Twice, actually. Once I talked to the head cheese; he was pretty impressed with it and he didn't contend the hat wasn't pure beaver. The other time was talking to one of the shop guys ( who tried to tell me the new Open Roads in the higher X were great hats - ), who also thought the AB was a great hat - though both thought the crown was too tall. I had to explain the whole thing....
In any event, I think that, almost like the X system, they've got something different they tell everyone, and if you roll in there like you've got money to spend ( which I don't ), they'll tell you whatever story they think'll sell their stuff.
However, I don't even know if they know, for sure. The place has been around since - what? - almost a hundred years or something. They're obviously not making their money in customs, anymore. I know they do a lot of conventions and supply movies and stuff ( didn't they do Lonesome Dove? )...

[Fedora]

The hatter I spoke of earlier has repeatedly told me that pure beaver hats come in only natural color (a greyish, light tan) or silver belly/white. According to him, pure beaver felt cannot be made any "color" such as brown, black, medium to dark grey, etc. due to the fact that the hat will not accept the dye. As such, most of his high "X" rated hats are not pure beaver. Heck, most of them feel like sand paper compared to my apparently pure beaver, beaver AB (by the way, he has seen it, felt it, and claimed it to be a non-beaver hat, then claimed to to a better job, but not in beaver felt since that color in beaver felt doesn't exist ). But enough of that...

I am so surprised by this hatter saying this. He must have forgotten that the original beaver hats, top hats, were mostly all......black!!!! Yep, that pure beaver took the dye quite well, and it was a dye that was inferiour to modern dyes.


You have to be careful when forming opinions, based upon what some hatters say. I am still astounded when I read something like the above quote.

On the X system, at one time, it was an indication of beaver fur content. Not anymore! The X system has been vulgarized to mean almost ANYTHING today. I once heard of a million X hat!!!

I liked the way the old Stetson Company used the X system, because they clearly told folks what the X's meant. Later on, the marketing folks took this and ran with it, forever changing the original meaning of the term.

For me, I like the more honest method of just telling what the beaver content is. Like a 80/20 hat, 80 per cent beaver, 20 per cent rabbit, or hare, or whatever

One old timer, in the D. Henderson, Hat Talk Book, even showed his "old timers" disease by making the statement to her, that there were never any pure beaver fur hats!! His claim was that pure beaver fur had no barbs, and therefore would not "felt"! Of course this was totally insane. When Marc sent me pics of the microscopic analysis of beaver fur, the pics clearly showed that not only did beaver fur have barbs, but many more barbs than rabbit fur, which was the reason beaver was the most desirable fur to use back in the 18th century for making great hats. The barbs is what allows the fur to interlock, or "felt" thereby creating the material known as felt. The more barbs, the better the felting, and the stronger the felt. Not to mention that beaver fur is much smaller in diameter than rabbit, and other furs, which creates a tighter felted hat, more dense.

There was a reason the beaver went extinct in Europe!!! But not the rabbit. And our American West was opened up, due to the beaver fur trade with Europe, who still wanted beaver fur, but had ran out basically. And America and Canada had plenty of those rodents!!! What put a hurting on the fur trade was the move to silk, for top hats.

One more thing. Since beaver was the desired fur for hats, for eons, once it was discovered that mercury would turn rabbit and other furs into something close to beaver in tighness of weave(for lack of a better term) and give it a more beaver like "feel", the cheaper rabbit furs suddenly took off, and became the standard for hats in the early 20th century. Beaver was expensive, compared to rabbit, because you can domesticate rabbits, and we have done so. While beaver has to remain wild. The cheaper rabbit fur, when treated with mercury, made a very good hat, considering you were using rabbit, instead of beaver.

One last fact. Beaver fur, without using mercury, (or any other chemical that raises up the barbs or scales on fur) will "felt" and make the felt used for hats. And this fact is one reason it was so sought after. It "felts" naturally, while other furs need some help, in this case, a chemical that raises up the barbs. But, if you use mercury on beaver fur, you get a hat that is par none, in the world of felt.

Mercury was used by the Old West ladies of the evening on their eye lashes, an early mascara, if you will. The mercury actually fluffs up hair, swelling it up so as to appear fuller, the way mascara does except with mercury, the actual hair swells. And of course, this swelling causes the barbs to stick out from the shaft even more. This puffing up of the fur, gives the hat a totally different feel. If you touch a real mercury hat, and then a modern one, the difference is very noticable. Mercury gives a very expensive feel to any fur, especially rabbit, which needed it anyways, to compete with beaver hats. So, mercury allowed lessor furs to enter into the hat market, and then these lessor furs stayed with us, even after mercury was banned. The main reason was the cost of rabbit compared to beaver.

Gosh, I can't seem to stop......... Ok, one last thing. Promise. Do you guys know WHY the lightweight hats came into existence? Not because of demand. They came into existence when we experienced fur shortages, like during WW1. The major hatters, like Stetson, had trouble getting enough fur to meet their quotas. So, in a move to stretch out what they could get, they decided to make the hats thinner, and lighter in weight. The public at first balked, as they were use to more fur in their hats, which meant the hats would last longer. (refurbs was a flourishing business) But, with time, the thinner felts became the norm.

What cracks me up today is to read some guy who maintains only a thin dress felt is pure vintage, and sets the standard for dress felt. Like the thin felt is the only felt worth considering for a fine hat!! What they don't realize is the thinner felts were made as a cost cutting measure! Then folks got used to it, and it suddenly became the standard for dress felt. It is funny how the need to cut costs, becomes the rosetta stone for determining quality.

The best furs for hats come from wild animals. Because the underfur, that keeps the animal warm is thicker on wild critters. And generally finer in size. Which make a better hat. At one time, the Australian rabbit was the best rabbit to be had, for hatmaking. Because they were wild. And, they were overrun with them. Akubra used to use them, and this is why Akubra at one time made really great hats. Now, I have heard, and I cannot verify this, just heard it from an old man who owned nothing but vintage Akubras, that they no longer use their wild rabbits. I hope this is not factual, but he insisted that it was. He told me that they are importing their rabbit fur today, from Europe, the domesticated rabbit, eaten by the French. For economic reasons. I have to give him some credence, because the vintage Akubras that he pulled out and let me handle were on par with vintage Borsalinos!!! And they were pure rabbit, and hare hats. And he said this change was done within the last few decades. Seems like he said they changed in the 1960's, but don't hold me to that. Could have been later.

Now, this change he spoke of, MAY have been nothing more than comparing a mercury made Akubra with a non mercury Akubra. I just know that the vintage Akubras were much better looking hats, but the same can be said of comparing a real Stetson from Phili, with the modern ones from Hatco.(they recently sold out by the way) But I do know something changed at Akubra, just not exactly sure if it was the fur used, or if mercury was the culprit. I saw it with my own eyes. Fedora

[Hollowpond]

Awesome info Steve! What year did they stop using Mercury in hats? If they didn't stop untill the late 50's that may be a reason why Indy saw aliens in KotCS!


Travis

[mcmanm]

That was really funny!

[BendingOak]

Awesome info Steve! What year did they stop using Mercury in hats? If they didn't stop untill the late 50's that may be a reason why Indy saw aliens in KotCS!


Travis

[binkmeisterRick]

I believe it was in the '40s that they stopped using mercury. That said, there are always long term effects, I suppose.

[Michaelson]

...for the hat maker, yes.

For the owner of said treated hat, no.

Regards! Michaelson

[binkmeisterRick]

Dang, it Michaelson, stop ruining my excuses!

[Michaelson]

Oh, er.... Yeah, that's true, bink!



Regards! Michaelson

[Hollowpond]

I believe it was in the '40s that they stopped using mercury. That said, there are always long term effects, I suppose.

WARNING SCIENCE CONTENT!!!

Ok, I know my High School Science Teacher is coming out...but, I can't help it. Mercury is a cumulative toxin. Meaning that once ingested (or absorbed throught the skin) most of it NEVER leaves the system, thus accumulating. This is the reason there are mercury warnings on fish, especially fatty fish such as tuna or salmon, as the mercury is stored in the fatty tissues. Eat a little bit today, no problem. Eat a little bit everyday of your life, and the problem gets worse as time passes. I would ASSUME (and yes I know what this does) that hats would be the same thing. Touching a hat with mercury in it over long periods of time could slowly eat away your mind, thus giving us the phrase (and I'm sure most of you already know this) "As mad as a hatter."

Back to our regularly scheduled topic, and I promise to here on out stick to my normal mindless banter.

Travis

[binkmeisterRick]

The "mad as a hatter" came from the hatters who actually handled the mercury with their fingers while felting and making hats. They had a much higher chance of going coo-coo for cocoa puffs than the average hat wearer.

[Michaelson]

True, and in the mercury felting process, it's the vapor that was used to cause the barbs to link up. Once the mercury was evaporated in the steaming process, there was no residue left on the felt.

Regards! Michaelson

[Hollowpond]

Wow! I did not know that. I wonder how they knew no residue was left. Not doubting you, just wondering. I had a small mercury spill in my lab (Old open barometer) and they literally tore that place apart, floor tiles counter tops, the works. I would have thought that at least a trace of mercury would have remained, just like the traces of mercury that exist in fish.

Travis

[Hollowpond]

Oh...and where did the vapor go?

[binkmeisterRick]

The air and up the nostrils of the hatter is my guess.

[Ranger36]

[Michaelson]

Yep. I'm sure there has to be a trace....but like anything else, the EPA has gone so overboard on 'toxins', it's hard to determine what is and is NOT 'safe' these days.

My Mom wanted to have a shower bath installed in the corner of our old family home last year, and looked into the cost. Before they would issue a building permit, she was told the EPA would have to do a completely house inspection to determine how much lead based paint and abestos insulation was in the house first (the house was over 120 years old, so what do you think the chances of finding that kind of material? ), the projected cost of inspection would be around $10,000, and then the cost of removal, which would be figured at the time of the job. For a shower stall?

They do good work, but they're working too hard to protect us from ourselves!

She sold the house and moved to a retirement community.

The trace amount of mercury in a hat is not enough to make someone go screaming into the streets, I assure you. If that were the case, our parents/grandparents/GREAT GREAT GREAT grandparents would not have survived past their 50s! Heck, I'm old enough to remember children's chemistry sets that CAME with a sample of liquid mercury as part of the chemical set, and as late as the mid 1960's.

Regards! Michaelson

[jbbowers]

When Crofut & Knapp (makers of Knapp-Felt, Dobbs, Disney, and later Cavanagh, Knox, Dunlap, and Berg) built their modern factory in 1923, they built air-tight rooms and enclosed blowers for the mixing of the fur to protect workers from the mercury vapors, as there was concern for their health even back then. I would imagine that Stetson, and some of the large Danbury plants did something similar.

As for the "trapped" vapors...it wouldn't surprise me if they were just vented out the factory chimneys and settled over the city.

Mercury was outlawed for use in hatmaking in America in 1941.

Brad

[Michaelson]

Interesting, and yet during that same time period they were still using radium to hand paint luminous dials on watch and clock hands, knowing the hazardous nature of the material (it's documented). Women used fine brushes, and would tip them before each application by licking the brush between each application.

They were pretty fast and loose on what they 'recognized' as a hazard, and what was convienent, weren't they?

Anyway, that is the history of the 'xxx' designation . It once meant something, but no longer.

Regards! Michaelson

[Hollowpond]

Ok, I always suspected it but now its official...COW makes you smart! And Michaelson, I know just where your coming from. Gov. agencies protect us at our own peril!

Travis

[Michaelson]

Oh, I don't about making you 'smart', but it sure gives you ammo should you go to a cocktail party and need something to talk about....

Regards! Michaelson

[Fedora]

for the hat maker, yes.

For the owner of said treated hat, no.

I heard that much of the exposure to the hatmakers was when they were working the felt, with hot water and steam. The mercury would escape in the form of gas, that the workers breathed. I think mercury nitrate, or nitrite was used, which may not be exactly what you see in old thermometers. I am not a chemist so.......but I got the impression it was not the liquid metal we generally associate with mercury. Could be wrong, as I said, I am not a chemist. Fedora

[Michaelson]

....though he once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express....

Kind of a 'timely' article today on MSNBC:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32192895/ns ... alth_news/

Regards! Michaelson

[Fedora]

A tip, or caveat emptor. If a hatter tries to sell you a thousand X hat, or some such ridiculous number, don't walk, but run as fast as you can from the shop. He is trying to empty your wallet. X does mark the spot, or in this case, you, the "mark" are about to be taken by a confidence man. "Marks" always have those X's on their foreheads. Or better yet, a bulls eye. And he has you dead in his sights.

More importantly, just ask what the fur content is on the hat. But with a thousand X hat, or million X hat, involved, you MAY not get the truth anyways.

I once bought 3 hats from a well known hatter, who told us we were buying beaver hats. Turned out, we bought rabbit hats, that were called beaver. And this was from a so called reputable hatter!!! I thought the 400 dollar price for one of these hats was a bargain for a beaver hat, as I had already priced them from other hatters online. So, I jumped on the 400 dollar price!!! Turned out, I got a 5 dollar rabbit body, and not a great rabbit body at that. And paid 1200 bucks for the 3 hats I bought. Not to worry Mods, I WON'T mention their name. But, I have a very low opinon of this hatter. His customers think he is the bees knees. But other hatters KNOW what he is. But, he is a very profitable businessman. So, the point here, is caveat emptor. Especially when it comes to hats. I think prior employees of P.T. Barnum got into hatting after the side shows went belly up myself. Same tactics, and they were taught an idiot is born every minute. Sorry for my rancor. I am still wincing from getting "took". But who would walk away from a fool and his money? I don't mind paying the asking price for a hat, but it HAS to be what it is billed as being. I don't like being sold a lower end quality rabbit hat, thinking I was buying a beaver hat!(at least they could have sold me a high end rabbit hat) That is false advertising, and a crime, I think.

But the good news is, 99 per cent of hatmakers, are honest hardworking guys. Jacksonbilt, J.W. Hats, Art Fawcett at Vintage Silhouettes, John Morris at Montana Hatters, Nathaniel who made the Digging for the Truth hat sported by Josh Bernstein, old Gus who is from the Northwest, Rand, the list is endless. And of course our resident hatters here. Fedora