What to look for in a well made hat

squidkidd · Post by **squidkidd** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:01 am

Granted we all have our own laundry list of essential features we look for in a good Raiders hat – from well rounded camel humps, straight sides, brim swoop, reverse taper, the list goes on, but what about things to look for in a well made fedora, Indy or otherwise? There is a lot less talk on that subject here so I thought I’d share a couple of things I look for in a well made hat. I’m really curious to hear what others look for too, seeing as it all comes down in the end to taste.

One of the first things I look at on a hat is how well the sweatband is installed. An easy way to tell is by doing what I call the snap test, where I pull the reed away from the hat and see if it “snaps” back into place. If it’s been sewed in nice and tight, it should make an audible pop and always lay flush up against the felt. I like to see the sweatband sunk deep down into the crown. I should never be able to see a gap between the edge of the sweatband and the felt where the arrow is in this picture. Note that there is absolutely no gap in the picture here of my Penman

My golden rule of sweatbands is while wearing the hat, the sweatband should hardly be visible.

Another thing that really matters to me is the quality of the pouncing. You might not be aware that there are actually variations in pouncing techniques which lead to slightly different finishes. Most obvious is the smoothness of the finished hat. Generally custom hats have a much smoother finish than factory hats – a direct result of the amount of time spent pouncing. Some factory hats may not even get any pouncing treatment at all. Getting more specific though, you could also describe the pounce job by how long the surface hairs are, or by how (or even if) they lay down. Does the felt feel smooth rubbed in both directions, or is it more like velvet if you rub against the grain? This is one area where different hatters can really show off and stand out from one another. Keep in mind though there’s no one way that’s better than the rest. As with most things it comes down to personal preference.

I believe ribbon work on a hat can be very telling of the quality of the hat overall. The ribbon is kind of like the finishing touch of a hat, and if care has been taken on the installation of the ribbon, chances are for likewise on the rest of the hat. First I look at the ribbon in general and make sure that it's free of wrinkles and creases that aren't supposed to be there. This is really basic stuff and if the ribbon is wrinkled I lose interest quickly. It’s on the ribbon where the most visible of stitches on the hat lie. I generally say that the less obvious the stitches are on the ribbon the better. Some hatters do such a great job at hiding stitches that they practically become invisible. This is great for the tack down stitches especially because it ensures an even and smooth ribbon all around the hat. One exception might be on a raiders hat, where as we know from the screenused pictures, the stitches on the hero hat were very obvious. If you’re going for screen accuracy, you may want the ribbon stitches placed very noticeably in the middle of the ribbon. A ribbon should also fit extremely tight all around the crown. If you run your finger along the upper edge of the ribbon, you should not be able to pick up any “slack” in the ribbon as your finger moves around. A well made bow should be able to hide it’s own construction. I don’t like having any end of the ribbon visible behind the bow. This area should be clean like the red arrows in the picture. I also look at where the bottom of the knot
of the bow touches the hat and make sure none of the sweatband stitching is showing through under the knot (blue area in photo).

I also want to mention the quality of the ribbon itself. Ribbon quality varies widely. Hat ribbon, in my opinion should be grosgrain, meaning the edges of the ribbon are finished. This just makes everything look a lot nicer than seeing an unfinished ribbon. Also notice how wide the folds in the ribbon material are. The narrower they are, the higher the thread count and the better the ribbon. Vintage ribbon usually trumps here.

So those are just a few of the bigger things I look for in hats. What else do you find important?

Regards,
Brian

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:41 am

Very well put, Brian. The pounce is what I look at most on hats. If I don't like the pounce, I probably won't wear the hat very often. Something else about sweatbands that I look for is a nice belling. If a sweat doesn't bell out, it isn't a well made hat. I also not only look for ribbon stitching but how uniform that stitching is all around the hat. I don't sit there with a ruler or anything like that, but I do eyeball the tacking and judge by what I see.

Dave

Russian Raider · Post by **Russian Raider** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:31 am

Thank you for input Brian, very well said. Sweaband is main thing i check in hats. On my Fed IV sw is sewn too low, and when hat is on my hat you can see it sticking out from the felt. It is very distracting and makes me loose my mind when i see it in the mirror. Problem is, when main option for majority is to buy hats online, often we get what we get. And there are some vendors with quality control per se is unique, while others is mix and match.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:21 am

First of all, I see if the hat fits! If not, I move along.

Some hats (like the vintage Stetson Stratoliner I'm wearing today) have the sweat sewn in so tightly and close that you can't pull it back for the "snap" test. I agree that the sweat shouldn't be visible when you wear the hat, but keep in mind that your head shape may affect this, as well. Still, how the sweat is installed is a good sign of quality, especially with custom hats.

(On a side note, how many years you've been making hats is not always indicative of the quality of your work. I had a new sweatband installed in a vintage Dobbs a few years ago by a local and very renowned hat maker who had been doing this for 60 years. His work was atrocious. I could've done a better job with duct tape.)

Good post, Brian!

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:39 am

You might want to give me his number, Rick. I have a vintage Dobbs that will be needing the sweat re-installed soon.

Dave

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:05 am

Better yet, let me use a staple to attach the sweatband to itself and then a glue gun to hold it in place while I stitch it into the hat... Oh, wait, he did that already. Yeah, no joke. I guess 60 years in the business teaches you new ways to use a stapler and glue gun.

And this guy has a good reputation?!

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:24 am

binkmeisterRick wrote: Better yet, let me use a staple to attach the sweatband to itself and then a glue gun to hold it in place while I stitch it into the hat... Oh, wait, he did that already. Yeah, no joke. I guess 60 years in the business teaches you new ways to use a stapler and glue gun. And this guy has a good reputation?!

I got a hat in by a customer for a re-block and I couldn't for the life of me understand why there was glue under the sweatband. Now it makes sense. This hat was glue into place and then sewn. I would have never expect it from this label.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:32 am

Some use a spot of glue to hold the liner in place, but not the sweatband. It wouldn't be so bad if it were a small daub of Elmer's or another water soluble glue, but a hot glue gun? Anyhow, that's something I look for in a quality hat — no glue in assembly!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:35 am

Some hatters do such a great job at hiding stitches that they practically become invisible. This is great for the tack down stitches especially because it ensures an even and smooth ribbon all around the hat.

The master of the hidden stitches is the girl who does the ribbon work at Optimo. You see no visible stitches on the ribbon or bow at all!

But, you will be hard pressed to find a vintage hat that has hidden stitches. I have never owned one. All of mine had visible stitches. This was not a feature of vintage hats, it is new, in my opinion. Something that someone came up with to set their hats apart from others. And generally speaking, a hidden stitch hat, will not take as much abuse, due to how the hidden stitches are done. But, these hats, are mainly for dress wear anyways, and not intended for knocking about, off the beaten path. I have made probably only a handfull of hats with the hidden stitches. And all were mainly dress hats.

The pounce job is important, but we must not forget that there are several different finishes, and to confuse a hat with more nap as inferiour is a mistake. Some vintage hats feature different finishes, ranging from practically no nap to everything in between, until you reach the long hair finish. And yes, even some vintage hats came with what I once would consider an inferiour finish, when in fact, it was intended, and on purpose.

To me, the thing I notice first, is if the sweat is flared out enough(reeded sweats) and if it is sunk deep enough into the hat. And if the sweat itself is tapered, being biggest at the bottom and getting smaller as it moves to the top. This makes a hat more comfortable to wear, and also does not fit so tight at the bottom of the sweat, as to allow some air to move between the sweat and the head.

I never ever popped out a sweat to see if it springs back. My biggest concern is that the sweatband stays in the hat, and I use nylon braided thread to hold it there. Nylon does not rot so quickly due to the salt it sees. But few hatters use it. You could own a hat that popped back great, but if the thread rots with use, this popping back is useless. So, to me, the important part of this, is that the sweat stays in the hat, for a LONG, LONG time.

Most of the custom vintage hats with a hand sewn in sweat, don't use a large number of stitches to hold in the sweat. They seem to use the minimum number to hold in the sweat. The reason? Most vintage hats were refurbed many times during the life of the hat. These stitch holes become a perforated or dotted line over time, which can cause the brim to tear off in a reblock. So, the hats were made with refurbs in mind, later on. Fedora

squidkidd · Post by **squidkidd** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:03 pm

Fedora wrote:Most of the custom vintage hats with a hand sewn in sweat, don't use a large number of stitches to hold in the sweat. They seem to use the minimum number to hold in the sweat. The reason? Most vintage hats were refurbed many times during the life of the hat. These stitch holes become a perforated or dotted line over time, which can cause the brim to tear off in a reblock. So, the hats were made with refurbs in mind, later on. Fedora

Oh wow, that's something I never thought of before, but makes perfect sense!

I recently heard a pretty random fact from the depths of hat lore I was wondering if anyone had heard before and that is that the little bow on the back of the sweatband was designed to resemble the bones from a skull and crossbones to signify that the felt was made with (poisonous) mercury. When they stopped using mercury it became tradition.

Barcelona Jones · Post by **Barcelona Jones** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:12 pm

squidkidd wrote: Oh wow, that's something I never thought of before, but makes perfect sense!

I recently heard a pretty random fact from the depths of hat lore I was wondering if anyone had heard before and that is that the little bow on the back of the sweatband was designed to resemble the bones from a skull and crossbones to signify that the felt was made with (poisonous) mercury. When they stopped using mercury it became tradition.

Well, that is just an invented explanation for a feature that has, in reality, another origin: yesteryear, hats were adjustable, by means of a tape which was then tied at the back of the sweatband. The little bow present in hats is a vestige, symbolic of that functional feature.

Regards!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:21 am

Well, that is just an invented explanation for a feature that has, in reality, another origin: yesteryear, hats were adjustable, by means of a tape which was then tied at the back of the sweatband. The little bow present in hats is a vestige, symbolic of that functional feature.

That one is accurate. Hats used to have a draw string, with the ends coming together in back, in the form of a bow. Early hats were round, and were made larger than the head size, for comfort, but would not fit an oval head(which most folks have) So, the draw string could be cinched up to take up the slack so the hat would fit. Over time, they dropped it, but kept the bow in back, totally useless, but became a tradition. Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:34 am

I still like squid's story, though. Nice and 'gothic' in nature.

Regards! Michaelson

Mitch LaRue · Post by **Mitch LaRue** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:39 pm

Me too, Michaelson... I prefer squid's version.

Regardless, though... I wanted to say THANKS squidkidd for starting this thread.
I've learned (& re-learned) a lot reading through this thread!
Cheers,
Mitch

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:39 pm

...and each and everytime I read the subject title, "What to look for in a well made hat", the answer that invariably comes to my mind is......"ME"! $\:D/$

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:44 pm

Michaelson, give me back my hat, please.

maboot38 · Post by **maboot38** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:50 pm

Michaelson wrote:...and each and everytime I read the subject title, "What to look for in a well made hat", the answer that invariably comes to my mind is......"ME"! $\:D/$

Regards! Michaelson

NICE!

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:18 pm

Notice I didn't say 'who'.....

Regards! Michaelson

squidkidd · Post by **squidkidd** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:14 am

I just remembered something I had to add to my list of things to look for, or in this case, things you hope *NOT* to find in a well made hat, and that is glue - and I'm talking about glue of any sort, whether to hold the liner in place or the ribbon, there is no use for any glue in a well made hat. Glue in a hat is merely an indication time saving measures were employed in an effort to rush a hat through production. This is a no-no boys and girls.

Phew, sorry just had to rant about that as I just discovered some glue in one of my hats as I was trying to swap out the liner *grumble grumble* Now back to your regularly scheduled witty one liners between Bink and Michaelson.

Regards,
Brian

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:46 pm

Who? Us?

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:42 pm

Michaelson wrote:Who? Us?

Regards! Michaelson

Guilty

squidkidd · Post by **squidkidd** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:31 pm

BendingOak wrote:
Guilty

Pretty sure I said one "liners" not "worders". That's it, you're out Oak, thanks for playing, Bink, tell him what what he's going home with.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:19 pm

Thanks for playing, Oak! As a consolation prize, we're sending you home with a lifetime supply of Dorfmans!

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:15 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:Thanks for playing, Oak! As a consolation prize, we're sending you home with a lifetime supply of Dorfmans!

Your dead.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:04 am

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:34 am

You know, the flanged, or flared reeded sweat, that you see in some hats has a purpose. It is supposed to help in keeping the sweat from soaking in on the bottom of the brim break. So, you don't get that white line around the brim, when the salt appears.

But many fine Borsalinos and other brands used a totally different kind of sweat. Some of you have probably seen them on old hats. There is no reed, and the only way to install this type of sweat is with a special sewing machine. So, back when I used to get a few in to work on, if I took out the sweat, I had to replace it with a reeded sweat.

The non reeded sweats look nice, and take less labor to make and install them at the factory. But I think they were designed for a cleaner look, not really sure.

The HJs and Christys use a reeded sweat, but they forget to flange them(flare) probably because the reed is not stiff enough to actually make the flare. So, they just sew em' in, without the flare. At least these days. Which also explains why they put the retaining stitches for the sweat right at the brim break. Any higher, with this sweat and the sweatband would be pulled up inside the hat.

To me, the only true sign of a well made hat is if you still own it 20 years after you bought it, and it stood the real test of being reblocked without tearing, somewhere, in those years.

I know of a hatmaker that makes the nicest looking hats, just perfect in the details. But, it's beauty, once it's gone cannot be brought back with a refurb. You generally don't have enough hat to work with, due to the severe shrinkage of the felt. So, beauty sometimes is more than skin deep. So many things to consider when talking about a well made hat.

Some hatmakers use a finishing powder, to even out the color of the felt. Stetson's dress line is this way. But once you get in a rain, that powder tends to leach out and run down your collar, leaving a stain, in my case, a brown stain on my shirt.

And you get a severely mottled hat once the powder is washed out. So, it was used for a purpose. Now, nothing wrong with the powder, as it has been used by hatters for years, and makes the felt look great, as long as you use it for fair weather. But many times, the powder is used to camoflauge a poor quaility felt these days. And one reason Akubra at one time advertised that they did not use the stuff on their hats. Fedora

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:39 am

Steve, thats another thing we have in common. the brown stain shirt from a modern Stetson.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:34 pm

The dye from mine ran down between my eyes, to my then two young daughters utter delight.

Regards! Michaelson

sallah4 · Post by **sallah4** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:13 pm

I just noticed how similiar a Penman and Akubra are.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:18 pm

sallah4 wrote:I just noticed how similiar a Penman and Akubra are.

I'm curious, in what way do they look similar to you? Regardless, there are some fundamental differences between the two hats: felt, ribbon, block shape, just to name a few. The Akubra is a great factory made hat. The Penman is a custom hand made hat. Both will produce great Indy fedoras, though there's a big difference in quality and workmanship between the two.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:22 pm

sallah4 wrote:I just noticed how similiar a Penman and Akubra are.

Holy cow!

Don't let John read that!

Travis

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:28 pm

Now, don't bash sallah4!

Seriously, we have folks at all points of the spectrum as far as what they see and how they appreciate hats. There's nothing wrong with any of them. His comment is not necessarily a slam, which is why I asked how they appear similar to him. A real car and a toy counterpart can look similar, even though they are two different things. I'm trying to discern what he meant. THEN I'll bash him.

(Kidding!

)

Actually, if you look at the current Downtowner thread, you'll see a side by side comparison of the Downtowner and the Akubra Federation. They may or may not be far apart in terms of quality, but they LOOK pretty darn similar in that pic!

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:55 pm

Regarding glue, I would have to say that the Fed IV is a darn nice hat and well made, but it has glue. Perhaps it's the exception that proves the rule, but point being is, I would not write off the Fed IV because the liner is glued in.

I realize of course that as nice as an Akubra is, it's not going to match a custom hat (AB, Penman, et al), but I think it's unfair to disqualify it as a "quality hat" because the liner is glued.

sallah4 · Post by **sallah4** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:07 pm

I retract my statement.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:23 pm

First off, the title of the thread is " What to look for in a WELL made hat." The key word there is Well. The Akubra is a good factory hat and well worth what they are asking for it. I would send someone to buy an Akubra for that price range but not much more. It's good not great.

The best way to install a liner is by sewing not glueing. The Henry has a liner glued in but the glue they use is easy to remove, not so with the Akubra.

As for the comparing a Akubra to one of my hats maybe everyone would see more clearly if I raise my prices to where they should be.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:58 pm

BendingOak wrote:

As for the comparing a Akubra to one of my hats maybe everyone would see more clearly if I raise my prices to where they should be.

Now...see what has come of this!

At least wait untill I have ordered a rabbit raiders and a beaver grey.

Travis

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:02 pm

sallah4, no need to be shy. Some of us around here have been into hats so long that we've become "hat snobs" while others on the boards are only beginning to discover the many things that make hats rate high or low on the quality scale. Others yet are still perfectly happy with their Dorfman Pacifics, the hat that gets ragged on the most around here. Despite what you may read around these parts, there is nothing wrong with any of these camps. The problem is that we hat snobs sometimes tend to forget that we were once new at this, too, and not able to tell the difference between a wool hat and a expensive beaver hat. Sometimes we fly off the handle a bit in our opinions and attitudes, forgetting that not everyone is as crazy over hats as we are.

It also doesn't help that there are many more options for an Indy hat now than ever before. It can be a bit daunting.

So I am still honestly interested in what appears similar to you between the Akubra Federation and the Penman. If it's purely a visual thing, I'd like to know. Really. No judgments from me, either. Heck, you'll see folks play "guess the hat" around here once in hopes of stumping people on the maker of a given fedora.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:21 pm

Well, you can't really tell quality (usually) in photos. So I can understand not understanding how a handmade hat is far superior to a factory hat and not similar at all. But, visually, there are differences. They are similar in that they are both brown fedoras. The block shape is completely different and even the color of the felt is drastically different. I too would like to know what is similar. The sable color that Christy's offers is similar to the Penman brown, but the Federation brown is very different. I'm just curios, just like Rick.

Dave

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:07 am

Hollowpond wrote:
BendingOak wrote:

As for the comparing a Akubra to one of my hats maybe everyone would see more clearly if I raise my prices to where they should be.
Now...see what has come of this! At least wait untill I have ordered a rabbit raiders and a beaver grey.

Travis

Travis, don't worry that was a bit of a joke. Notice me going off in the video. I have taken it on the chin this past couple of days. Ounce at another forum, ounce on my youtube on how to bash a raiders hat and now here. So, I decided to be a smart mouth, It's the New Yorker in me.

I think Bink is right. If you haven't seen to many hats it's easy to get them mixed up. It's very easy to come off the wrong way if you are not completely clear on what you are trying to say. I know I have done it so many times, ask Batman

and Robin

.

kiltie · Post by **kiltie** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:35 am

Oak -
Someone harped on your video? That's lame... I'm no wizard, but I remember after someone showed me the neuances of creasing Raiders' style ( via a similar short vid ), I was surprised and, frankly, a bit disappointed at how easy it really is. You've got this build up in your mind about how it's going to be, then you go up on the mountain to see the guru. He takes the hat off your head, creases it in about a minute, then slaps you with it because you made such a big deal out of the thing.
Even if a person hates the Raiders' style crease, one of the best parts of the video is the way it de-mystifies creasing an open crown hat; that's really great to see in action!
Still picture tutorials remind me of those old books on how to draw cartoon characters: they start with a couple of lines and circles, some fiddling here, fiddling there, then...SHAZAM! They've drawn this really intricate character, always after it seems like they've left out five or six steps. Your video? Well, it's all there, right before your eyes. No secrets, no missing steps. Easy Peasy.
I like to think I've graduated past that demo, but it's still great to see someone sharing and showing you don't have to be afraid of the open crown. I can't imagine why somebody would have anything but good things to say about the time and effort.

Arright - enough of that. Getting back on topic, I like to see a quality ribbon on a hat. Not necessarily the tacking or bow, but the ribbon itself. The ribbon on my AB Raiders is my favorite. It has a really cool trick in which the ribbon itself is flat, but the edges take on an almost iridescent quality. It doesn't show in pictures; you have to turn it in your hands. I wish I could get ribbon like that on some of my other hats. Conversely, I have a really great Stetson Whippet with a really excellent body and guts. Unfortunately, the ribbon was replaced with something that looks like it would be used to wrap a gag gift with. I really gotta get that fixed. Anyone know a good hatter?

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:06 am

I might now a guy.

Dave

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:34 am

kiltie wrote:Oak -
Someone harped on your video? That's lame... I'm no wizard, but I remember after someone showed me the neuances of creasing Raiders' style ( via a similar short vid ), I was surprised and, frankly, a bit disappointed at how easy it really is. You've got this build up in your mind about how it's going to be, then you go up on the mountain to see the guru. He takes the hat off your head, creases it in about a minute, then slaps you with it because you made such a big deal out of the thing.
Even if a person hates the Raiders' style crease, one of the best parts of the video is the way it de-mystifies creasing an open crown hat; that's really great to see in action!
Still picture tutorials remind me of those old books on how to draw cartoon characters: they start with a couple of lines and circles, some fiddling here, fiddling there, then...SHAZAM! They've drawn this really intricate character, always after it seems like they've left out five or six steps. Your video? Well, it's all there, right before your eyes. No secrets, no missing steps. Easy Peasy.
I like to think I've graduated past that demo, but it's still great to see someone sharing and showing you don't have to be afraid of the open crown. I can't imagine why somebody would have anything but good things to say about the time and effort.

Arright - enough of that. Getting back on topic, I like to see a quality ribbon on a hat. Not necessarily the tacking or bow, but the ribbon itself. The ribbon on my AB Raiders is my favorite. It has a really cool trick in which the ribbon itself is flat, but the edges take on an almost iridescent quality. It doesn't show in pictures; you have to turn it in your hands. I wish I could get ribbon like that on some of my other hats. Conversely, I have a really great Stetson Whippet with a really excellent body and guts. Unfortunately, the ribbon was replaced with something that looks like it would be used to wrap a gag gift with. I really gotta get that fixed. Anyone know a good hatter?

It's not that the guy didn't like the video but he put me and my skill down to uplift his buddy. Very tacky and show's no class.

Back on target. I agree a good quality ribbon is a must but if it's put on like the person lost his site or something thats whats the point. It's like putting make-up on a pig.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:42 am

Hey, it may not look good, but it sure as all #### tastes good!

Dave

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:50 am

Kiltie,

Couple more things. I have some vintage ribbon that might work for you depending on what color you are looking for and size of course. There's always the Indy ribbon if you need.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:41 am

Regarding glue, I would have to say that the Fed IV is a darn nice hat and well made, but it has glue. Perhaps it's the exception that proves the rule, but point being is, I would not write off the Fed IV because the liner is glued in

Please don't confuse a well make hat with whether they use glue or not. The fact of the matter is to my knowledge, only many
custom hats come with the stitched in liner today. Whereas, most all hats of an earlier era had sewn in liners. Just a change in the business that probably happened when hats went belly up, and the companies that did stay open, had to cut costs, i.e. labor.

Now, I do think hot glue is the WRONG glue to use, but that's just my own opinion, arrived at when I had to reblock these sorts of hats. I always seem to pull a chunk of felt out with the liner!!! That can develop a weak point in the hat, that can become a hole later on. That's my only gripe with hot glue. Other glues work as well, and come loose easy for the refurb job.

John, hate to hear you got dumped on, by someone regarding your video. Uncalled for. After all, you took the time to make this, and then post it, in an attempt to help folks who needed help. It was a slap in the face.

But understand one thing John. No matter how good your hats are, there will always be a few, with an agenda, that has nothing to do with your quaility. I once got a hat back, that the buyer had a laundry list of things wrong with the hat. I was not surprised to get it back, pull it out, and see absolutely nothing wrong with the hat. Sometimes folks just want their money back, for something else, and their newly purchased hat is the only thing they can get money back on. So, they blame it on a hat.

What you do, is you make a list that stays on top of your work orders. With names that you would never make a hat for ever again. And come hades or high water, you stick to your vows. There are loads of customers out there that are honest, and will appreciate your work, the guys who actually know a great hat when they see and feel one. And make that list I spoke of.

Of the various forums on the net, there are some that got used to buying second hand hats, at the bargain basement prices. Many are vintage hats. These guys would never wear hats IF they had to pay the going rate for a new hat. And most never would. What they don't think about is that 7.50 marked hat, made in the 30's translates into several hundred dollars, if you do the conversions. Especially when you use the prices of that era for pure beaver hats. I did it once, and came up with 750 to 1000 bucks, when converted, using the Stetson 10x which retailed for 100 dollars at the time the rabbit hats were selling for 7.50. Many of these guys wear hats because they can get the old ones real cheap, at least a few years ago, before the demand pushed up vintage hats on ebay. I recall when that happened. Fedoralover and I even talked about it at the time.

If vintage hats actually sold by what they would be worth, today in 1930's dollars, some of the forums would not exist. At least not with as many members as they have today. The true hat lovers are much less in number, and would prove itself if the price of vintage hats were not so relatively low. So consider that in the future. Especially if you deal with a certain forum on the net. Sure there are folks there that buy new, but they are outnumbered, but even then the ones that buy new hats stick with the cheaper 100 dollar price range. Now, not all, but most do. I sure would not go there to try to sell any hats. And don't.

I used to refurb vintage hats, which was a great learning experience, and I don't regret it. If you were to take my advice, that advice would be, don't fool with refurbs or anything else on vintage hats. But if you do, charge 100 bucks for the service. You will find that your demand for such, will become non existent. Because if you do a refurb "right" it takes as much time to do these as it does to make a new hat. These guys are just looking for the cheap way out, and your time is worth more than that. Their time certainly is!!! That is, they would not do it for your old price. Just some advice from someone who has seen it all......almost.

I still get a few surprises every now and then. Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:50 am

You know, what is so ironic to me, is none of our fav hats, the Indy fedoras were that well made. The Raiders was the best of the bunch, but honestly guys, a well made hat would not get the droopy brims, so easily!! Part of the Raiders mystique involves low quality materials.

It is very hard to get a pure beaver hat, or even the vintage rabbit and blends to droop in the time frame Raiders was shot. Part of a well made hat involves the all important brim break to stay "in place". Many old hatters took pride in the longevity of their brim breaks, and had special tools to put them there, and keep them there.

Beaver will droop, but it takes alot of work to pull that off, if done artificially. And much longer if done naturally. I get hats back made in 05 that still have no brim droop, even the ones worn as rain hats. Not Indy accurate, at least SOC accurate, but it sure makes me feel good when I see the brim break still where I put it. Fedora

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:00 am

Steve, you are too modest. Your hat is top notch! Indy wore an AB too. He finally wised up and got himself a well made hat.

Dave

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:21 am

BendingOak wrote: It's very easy to come off the wrong way if you are not completely clear on what you are trying to say. I know I have done it so many times, ask Batman and Robin .

We have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about.

Right bink?

bink?

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:32 am

Thanks Steve for the advise. I have been refurbishing vintage hats for a bunch and already had decided to raise my prices for that because it was just taking up my time way to much. Trying to save some of these hats , really does take up a lot of time like you said.

I have to agree with David, Indy wore a AB, so he did wear quality ounce.

The one who slammed my youtube video did so just to showcase his buddy's name. No big deal. It just seemed when I went though and check out all the forums and the youtube page I got tagged all in one day in three different places. I really didn't expect it. No big thing, I know what my hats are.

As for the glue issue. I can see Kidds point of view and he did say "hope not to find." I think he got a hat ounce that glue was used to hold the sweatband in place so it can be sewn in. I think he just sick of glue and I can't say I blame him.

I do think there are degree of quality made hats. I think kid is talking about the high end stuff. I don't think you can compare a handmade hat with a factory mad hat. If a hatter spends all his time making a hat by hand in every step and then at the last minute he glues in the liner,It makes me scratch my head. Why not add the ten minutes or so to finish the job right. On a factory hat I expect the liner to be glued in but using a glue that won't rip the snot out of the hat doesn't add time or cost.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:35 am

Michaelson wrote:
BendingOak wrote: It's very easy to come off the wrong way if you are not completely clear on what you are trying to say. I know I have done it so many times, ask Batman and Robin .
We have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about. Right bink? bink?

Regards! Michaelson

You know why Bink is Robin right?