what's wrong with the Expedition?

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:28 am

I've owned two Expeditions in my Indy Gear career -- one each in lamb and chrome seal goat. Both were exceptionally well-made jackets: dead straight stitch lines, precision tailoring, cut and built with obvious care and attention to detail. I preferred them to the Wested I had, and I can truly say that the lamb Expedition was one of my favorite jackets.

But there was one thing about the Expedition I didn't like, and it was a detail that eventually drove me to sell the lamb G&B. I alluded to it in a recent post in a thread by someone considering buying an Expedition, and it's been on my mind enough that I thought I'd raise it here for a discussion if people are interested or have any opinions.

The issue I had with my Expeditions, and the one I see in almost every shot of one being worn, is the sleeves, particularly the upper arms. They just don't drape right. They fold and crease vertically in a weird way.

The only real way to describe it is to show it in pictures. This is me in my lamb Expedition (look at the sleeves from the elbow up):

This was after months of wear, and me scrunching up the sleeves to try to break them in to cure them of this habit. It didn't work. Other than the sleeve crease issue (and the sleeves being slightly too short), the Expedition fit me great and was true to size.

Here's one in goat with the same issue:

Now, to be clear, not every Expedition I've seen worn has this problem. And I have also seen similar issues from time to time in pictures of other makers' jackets. But it seems somewhat endemic in the Expedition and a rarity with other jackets.

Some additional photos I've collected showing further examples of the sleeve issue are below. They are all different jackets. (I've cropped out the wearer's faces where they were included in the original to protect the innocent.) As you can see, it occurs in both goat and lamb jackets, whether the jacket is zipped or not, and even in a non-Expedition jacket (a G&B M422).

Why does this happen with the G&B when otherwise it appears to be an extremely high-quality jacket? Anyone have any ideas? Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill?

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... /Expo1.jpg

Three quarters shot:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... arters.jpg

Side shot:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... poSide.jpg

M422:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... s/M422.jpg

Zipped up:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... Zipped.jpg

Others:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... /Expo4.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... /Expo3.jpg

Post by **Holt** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:42 am

shoulder are to wide, armholes might be a bit big, the upper sleeves has to much room.

this is in the wested jackets aswell from time to time. no biggie..

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:35 am

As I noted, I have seen this in other makers from time to time. But why does it happen so often with G&B? If we consistently see that the "shoulder are to wide, armholes might be a bit big, the upper sleeves has to much room" on G&Bs, isn't that a design flaw?

And do Expedition owners really consider it "no biggie"? Cuz I didn't.

Post by **Holt** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:41 am

this is their jacket pattern, this is stanarized. so they come like this on every jacket.

if you dont like it, try to get a jacket form another maker. becasue they wont change sleeve pattern, because they dont work like that. I only know that they are willing to work with sleeve length for a extra buck.

maby try to go one size down and get the extra sleeve length. it might work for you...

Also, a member here know as 'rundquist' knows ALOT more about GB then I do. Im just passing the message from someone who works at GB.

but to me, it doesnt look bad at all. I think it looks good. Im seeing this on the original jacket to from time to time too. so I wouldnt loose any sleep over it...

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:49 am

I guess this is exactly my point... why is the G&B design is standardized to include a rather obvious flaw? We don't see Indy's sleeves draping like this in any of the movies, and irrespective of Indy, I don't think a jacket's sleeves should hang like that.

Post by **Holt** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:54 am

Well tough luck then, cuz we cant do anything about it. The G&B IS copied from an original stunt jacket So it should be pretty close.... The GB jacket is not fan made or copied form screens grabs like many other makers have done.

as I said, I wouldnt worrie about it.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:14 pm

Holt, I appreciate your feedback. But the G&B issue goes beyond the Expedition, so I don't think it's a detail that was copied from the Raiders stunt jacket. I think it's something inherent in how G&B builds their jackets. We also know that the Expedition had changes made to its design early on (pockets, for instance), and certain nitpicky details are not always consistent (for instance, the collar extending to the center of the storm flap), so I don't think we can chalk it up to the 100% fealty of G&B to the original design.

Thanks also for the pic, but you can't tell about the drape issue if the arm is bent. A bent arm will necessarily cause wrinkles and creases that aren't present when the jacket is hanging loose.

bobjones · Post by **bobjones** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:46 pm

Hi that-dog. The pic with the brown goat expo looks too big on the wearer, so that might be why the sleeves are also just too large and drape like curtains.

The first linked pic you used is me, and I was leaning forward - not standing up straight so the jacket was not going to look right.

I just put the jacket on again (funny enough wearing the same grungy sweatshorts) and I noticed what you are alluding to, and I think it has to do with:

1-the stiffness of the hide when new, as it is much less pronounced now one year into ownership
2-the way the jacket is stored folded when first manufactured and shipped out, it spends alot of its first few days to few weeks in that folded position.

There was also a crease in the jacket back when its was new, and that is also flattening out.

Personally, I think it is amongst the best leather jackets I've seen or worn, and feel that your concerns, while legitimate as there is an initial crease, are no a major concern for it over time.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:42 pm

I think the Expedition is one of the better quality jackets around and I really like mine. But, while, it carries an Indy vibe, it doesn't carry the vibe as much as some other jackets. If you want your jacket to drape, crease, and flap around like Indy's then the Expedition may not be your jacket. The hides (I'm speaking as a goat owner) are just too tough and stiff to do this. I'm not saying they are "brittle" tough but Indy's jacket flopped and draped like a cotton windbreaker. The Expedition just won't do that.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:23 pm

dog, what do your sleeves measure at bicep and cuff (flat) ?.....and what size is your jacket ?

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:47 pm

Just putting my two cents in - only in regards to stunt jackets. A stunt jacket is always (9 times out of 10) cut larger to the hero jacket for specific gags - this is done to allow for pad placement within the jacket for protection. I am not saying this is the case with the pattern - but it's what is usually done. And I know what I am talking about as I am a stunt performer (20 years in the industry)

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:16 pm

Bob -- thanks for your thoughts. Yours doesn't do it nearly as bad as some of the others I've seen. But as for the creases going away with time, that just isn't the case, at least for me. The pic of me in my Expedition was taken more than a year after I got it and wore it frequently. I also spent lots of time scrunching up the sleeves to try to make the folds go away, but it didn't work.

Crismans -- there is no doubt that the Expedition is a quality jacket as I tried to make clear in my initial post. They are very well built. As for the drape issue, you are absolutely right. The goat Expo I had was built like a freaking tank, and if I had to be dragged behind a truck while wearing an Indy jacket, the goat Expo would probably be no. 1 on my list. But it just didn't have the drapy, floppy look of the Raiders jacket when worn. That's why I sold the goat Expo and a few years later picked up one in lamb. I loved the lamb Expo, which had the drape I was looking for along with the consistency in pattern and quality you get with G&B. Unfortunately, it also had the sleeve issue which eventually bugged me enough that I sold the jacket.

Hatch -- Unfortunately I no longer have the jacket to take measurements. It was a 40 tall, which is my regular jacket size and which fit me almost 100% of the time off the rack.

Nick-- thanks for the insight on stunt jackets. At this point I think the issue may lie with G&B's production methods rather than the Expedition pattern, as I've seen it in some of their other offerings (the M422 I posted, as well as some of their A2s).

I hope it's clear that I respect G&B as a builder and vendor of jackets. I am just curious about this aspect of their jackets that seems to recur irrespective of size or leather used. (I've also become much more sensitive to issues of jacket fit, construction, and detail thanks to this forum over the years!

)

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:17 pm

I've noticed that too about the sleeves via pictures. So, even though I always hear the construction is top notch I have to stay away since it does look a little odd to my eyes. On some people the sleeves probably look just fine, but since I'm kind of a skinny dude, I figure that would not be me. Maybe it was originally cut for a pretty "buff" guy with substantial musculature in those "looser" areas.

Lao Feng · Post by **Lao Feng** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:31 pm

Something I would never ascribe to the G&B Expo is sleeves and arm holes that are too big/wide. If anything, there are among the smallest. Compare with a US Wings jacket. Cheers -- Lao Feng

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:03 pm

Lao Feng wrote:Something I would never ascribe to the G&B Expo is sleeves and arm holes that are too big/wide. If anything, there are among the smallest. Compare with a US Wings jacket. Cheers -- Lao Feng

I guess it is true, they look small, funny because they also look loose at the same time. Huh.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:46 pm

...tell me if you have had this problem...what I call, jacket "creep" in the reverse. That is it has a tendency to want to slip backwards off your shoulders, pulling the upper portion of the jacket tight against the chest? Anyone else have that issue?

CM · Post by CM » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:11 am

Dog, to me that jacket looks too boxy and big in that photo - sorry Rundquist. My G&B doesn't do the sleeve thing as much as yours, but mine is a tighter fit at 42 tall. I've got to say, some Expeditions really don't look right... as many have said, not everyone can wear one and look right. Some of them look very boxy and awkward.

MACHONE · Post by **MACHONE** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:44 am

Overall look of the jacket aside..Holt's right from what I can tell about the sleeve. It's just the pattern. It is what it is. I'm sure it fits some people differently due to arm size. It looks like it's just the cut of the sleeve, the excess material has no where to go and drapes like that. I did a quick search and found this:
http://www.vintagesewing.info/1940s/42-mpd/mpd-04.html
Just by looking at the differnt cuts and pattterns it's easy to see how a little extra material on one edge, or curvature of the shoulder could impact the sleeves characteristics.
-Ben

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:56 am

A tailor once told me that many off the rack suit jackets have the sleeves attached wrong at the am hole. He said they often need to be rotated back, or forward. Maybe that's what is going on with some of these jackets? The sleeve needs to be rotated to the back slightly to remove the crease?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:00 am

Texan Scott wrote:...tell me if you have had this problem...what I call, jacket "creep" in the reverse. That is it has a tendency to want to slip backwards off your shoulders, pulling the upper portion of the jacket tight against the chest? Anyone else have that issue?

The TN Raider jacket does that, falls to the back moving off the shoulders, moves around on the shoulders. It's becase the original jacket was not constructed correctly.
But creeping back and making the jacket tight at the chest, no.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:59 am

RCSignals wrote:A tailor once told me that many off the rack suit jackets have the sleeves attached wrong at the am hole. He said they often need to be rotated back, or forward. Maybe that's what is going on with some of these jackets? The sleeve needs to be rotated to the back slightly to remove the crease?

Maybe that's it... surely a good maker wouldn't screw up that badly? Who knows?

bobjones · Post by **bobjones** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:07 am

One thing about the jacket that does bother me - and it might be the case with just the Expo, or all of the Indys', is the position of the shoulder seam.

If looked at from the front, the shoulders slope well over where a proper jacket's should end, so that the seam between the shoulder and sleeve is 1/4 to 1/3 down the person's deltoid rather than landing at the "acromion" (yeah I had to look that up), which if you feel along your shoulder is the "corner point".

If you have a properly fitting suit jacket, you will see the point or corner of the shoulder falls precisely at that spot, not rolling over it the way the Indy jacket does.

This gives the appearance that the jacket is too large, boxy and oversized like your high school girlfriend wearing your school team jacket...

These 2 pics from above show it best:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... /Expo1.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... arters.jpg

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:21 am

I think the sleeves folding onto themselves in that way isn't a design flaw, as much as it has to do with the very smooth soft leather G&B uses.
G&B leather is very soft and drapey, but it's tough to get it to hold a wrinkle. There is no real "stiffness" to the skin, so it doesn't retain any sort of character. It just lays there.

Now, I love my G&B goat. I bought it from Rundquist awhile back, and it's my favorite Indy jacket I own. I haven't done it, but I plan to throw the sucker in the washing machine, and break it down a bit. When it dries, it will stiffen up slightly, and this will help it hold all those wrinkles and creases we all love so much.

Mike

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:28 am

IndyBlues wrote: Now, I love my G&B goat. I bought it from Rundquist awhile back, and it's my favorite Indy jacket I own. I haven't done it, but I plan to throw the sucker in the washing machine, and break it down a bit. When it dries, it will stiffen up slightly, and this will help it hold all those wrinkles and creases we all love so much.

Mike

I hope that works for you.

But I threw mine in the washer after a freak Pepsi accident. The shine was muted and some really nice graining popped out but the jacket still didn't hold creases that well.

Again, I love my G and B, but I consider it a "street"jacket with an Indy vibe that can be with you for years. If you're looking for an Indy jacket that flops around like his and has that "beat to heck" character, then the Expedition probably isn't your jacket.

moses · Post by **moses** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:12 pm

bobjones wrote:One thing about the jacket that does bother me - and it might be the case with just the Expo, or all of the Indys', is the position of the shoulder seam.

If looked at from the front, the shoulders slope well over where a proper jacket's should end, so that the seam between the shoulder and sleeve is 1/4 to 1/3 down the person's deltoid rather than landing at the "acromion" (yeah I had to look that up), which if you feel along your shoulder is the "corner point".

If you have a properly fitting suit jacket, you will see the point or corner of the shoulder falls precisely at that spot, not rolling over it the way the Indy jacket does.

This gives the appearance that the jacket is too large, boxy and oversized like your high school girlfriend wearing your school team jacket...

These 2 pics from above show it best:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... /Expo1.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... arters.jpg

Indy's jacket in Raiders does the same so that wouldn't bother me.
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ns/r95.jpg
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ns/r50.jpg
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ns/r79.jpg
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/030.jpg

bobjones · Post by **bobjones** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:25 pm

moses wrote: These 2 pics from above show it best:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... /Expo1.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k171/ ... arters.jpg

Indy's jacket in Raiders does the same so that wouldn't bother me.
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ns/r95.jpg
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ns/r50.jpg
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ns/r79.jpg
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/030.jpg[/quote]

Moses, ths for the pics, you can really see it hanging way over his shoulder on the last shot.

One thing that one can pick up from those photos is the amount of distressing and the fact that it is almost without question IMO, cowhide - as opposed to lamb or goat. The drape, shaping, and texture of the jackets in the pics solidify it for me...

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:55 pm

It's hard to tell from photos, but, respectfully, that jacket doesn't look like cowhide to me. Plus, other than the Wilson's used for the truck gag, there's never been mention of the jackets being anything other than lamb (now, what kind of lamb is a whole other story

).

Post by **Holt** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:22 am

I have to say that the jacket in the 2nd picture allways looked like a thivcker skin to me, like cowhide...

but Im sure it is sheepskin. all Raiders jacket aresheepskin with the exception of the truck drag which is not made by peter. all jackets peter supplied were sheepskins, with thickness variations...

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:33 pm

This shot provides a good look of how the upper arms of an Indy jacket should look.

This is obviously not how the G&B sleeves hang on the examples I've provided.

As for this "issue" having been copied directly from the stunt jacket used as the model for the Expedition, I don't buy it. We know the stunt jacket copied came from Leather Concessionaires, because it had the action back and other details that the Wilsons jackets didn't. So why would this one Leather Concessionaires jacket be constructed so differently as to have the sleeves hang wrong? According to the jacket writeup, the differences between the Leather Concessionaires jackets were "the placement of the collar along the top of the storm flap, the size of the patch pockets, and the configuration and design of the gussets." There's nothing in there about any of the jackets having different sleeve configurations.

As for it being the G&B leather, I doubt it... the lamb Expo I had was incredibly soft and drapy, and really nailed the Raiders look in almost every way except the upper arms. I agree that the goat G&B uses is so tough and stiff as to cause draping issues, but I think that's separate and apart from the sleeve problem.

Finally, saying "it is what it is" and that "it's no biggie" doesn't really address the issue. Some people have stayed away from the Expedition because of the sleeves (bigrex). Some have gotten rid of jackets they otherwise liked because of it (OK, maybe just me

). It's not a "screen accurate" look, and it doesn't really look appropriate for a high-end leather jacket, IMO. Now, I'm not trying to make people unhappy with their jackets -- if you like your G&B, great! As far as I'm concerned, if someone is happy with their jacket, that is all that matters for them. But in a world in which every detail of the jacket is hashed and rehashed over and over, I'm curious to know why G&B jackets do this and if there is a simple remedy for the problem.

[edited to cut down the pic of Indy and Satipo]

Lao Feng · Post by **Lao Feng** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:07 pm

Texan Scott -- Jacket creep in reverse? You betcha. Mine has always wantes to slip back. I have often mused that this is because the placement of the back of the collar is too far forward. Try pulling your G & B Expo foward off your shoulder and you will find the back of the collar precluses you from doing so. Cheers -- Feng

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:19 am

I have to say, I never noticed the sleeve issue in any photos until you pointed it out, that_dog. I don't own a G&B, but I have always wanted one. I really must look tomorrow at my non-G&B's to see if I spot anything similar. You have got me looking, and thinking.

Anyhow, to address the issue as best I can at the moment, my current train of thought is this; You really can't go by the look of an on-screen jacket. Too many variables in play (what's worn underneath, level of distressing, weight of the hide), the most important being that we will never know exact how any particular jacket fit it's wearer. At least some Raiders jackets were made for Tom Selleck, as I have heard, not Harrison or Leonard. How a jacket fits a wearer has much to do with drape, including sleeves. All brands, especially high-end brands, of clothing have very different cuts. Not everyone can look the same (or even good) in every makers clothes.

For example, I can't buy a blazer or suit by some makers because the cut sets the armholes too far back for my body. Looks great, trim, neat. But it's very restricting and uncomfortable. If I were starring in a movie, though, I might have to wear something cut that way to get the right look. In fact, I generally look great in clothes that are one size too small. But I feel like I'm shrink-wrapped! One false move and - riiippp!

The thing to remember here is that, Indy jacket or not, the design and cut of each offering out there is different. This is probably not a flaw, but rather the reality of off-the-rack sizing (even high-end). You can not design one garment to fit and flatter all body types. That's probably why not all G&B's are found to look this way, just some. I'll even leap off the edge with you and say most. But that sounds just about right, mathematically speaking.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:57 am

_ had lot of original input on the 'Expedition' didn't he.........do you guys think it could be he 'upsized' the arms to fit a bodybuilders arms ??

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:53 am

No, he didn't.

They just took the specs he supplied and created the patterns, then made a few adjustments to the pocket flaps etc, but the basic platform was taken directly from those measurements of the stunt jacket in the private collection.

Regards! Michaelson

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:05 am

Thanks for clearing that up , do you have a link to his original measurements/specs etc ?

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:13 am

I know someone recently dregged them up from the old Indyfan.com archives. Do some 'rooting around', as it hasn't been that long ago that was re-posted. I don't have them at the moment.

Regards! Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:26 pm

Leather has everything to do with the drape. On top of that, how well the jacket fits you also has a lot to do with it. I wouldn't read much more into it than that. The cowhide CS jacket hangs differently than any other movie jacket for instance. Yeah a TN Raider jacket is not quite the same as a G&B expo., but the thing that really makes them different is the leather. Leather is what really gives a jacket its character.

This is a TN Raider.

The leather is completely different from any leather on any of my expos. The expo has its own characteristics for sure, but the leather is what gives the jacket its defining characteristics, besides the construction. Tony had the benefit of inspecting the hide on an original. As a boutique jacket supplier, he’s really able to deliver on the hide.

When Paterson inspected the original that he had access to, the hide was probably the last thing on his mind. He had many measurements to take and everyone evolved with the project says that he took meticulous measurements. As far as the hide goes, G&B has what it has. They have good hides. Is it the same sheepskin/lambskin used in the original? No, but it makes a fine jacket.

Bottom line, buy what you want. Every jacket maker has to deal with fans/crackpots that have “issues” with their product. It’s part of the game, really. Most of them (if not all of them) laugh at customers, I guarantee that. I mean that in the most non-offensive way possible, but it’s true.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:25 pm

Rundquist wrote:Leather has everything to do with the drape. On top of that, how well the jacket fits you also has a lot to do with it. I wouldn't read much more into it than that. The cowhide CS jacket hangs differently than any other movie jacket for instance. Yeah a TN Raider jacket is not quite the same as a G&B expo., but the thing that really makes them different is the leather. Leather is what really gives a jacket its character.

Rundquist, I pretty much agree with all of this, but it doesn't explain the G&B sleeve issue, as it recurs in both goat and lamb... and based on personal experience, the G&B goat and lamb are very, very different leathers, with very different draping characteristics.

I could buy the "fit" issue as a potential explanation if I didn't see so many photos of Expeditions with the wonky sleeves. For an off-the-rack jacket, the Expedition seems to have this problem across a broad spectrum of wearers.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:39 pm

that_dog wrote:
Rundquist wrote:Leather has everything to do with the drape. On top of that, how well the jacket fits you also has a lot to do with it. I wouldn't read much more into it than that. The cowhide CS jacket hangs differently than any other movie jacket for instance. Yeah a TN Raider jacket is not quite the same as a G&B expo., but the thing that really makes them different is the leather. Leather is what really gives a jacket its character.
Rundquist, I pretty much agree with all of this, but it doesn't explain the G&B sleeve issue, as it recurs in both goat and lamb... and based on personal experience, the G&B goat and lamb are very, very different leathers, with very different draping characteristics.

I could buy the "fit" issue as a potential explanation if I didn't see so many photos of Expeditions with the wonky sleeves. For an off-the-rack jacket, the Expedition seems to have this problem across a broad spectrum of wearers.

The TN Raiders is the only Indy jacket that I've had that did emulate the drape of the sleeves, and I've had Westeds, G&B's, and US Wings. I attribute it to the hide. Just because G&B has different hides doesn’t mean that they don’t display the same characteristics. Their lamb is not the same as the TN lamb. If the drape diminishes your enjoyment of a jacket, find something else. That’s the bottom line.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:47 pm

I would say that you need to have a combination of two things to emulate those sleeves. You need a leather that retains creases and you need a leather that is not so heavy that the creases pull out from the leather's own weight. That's not exactly an easy combination.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:00 pm

Well, I've got a TN Raiders in the 747 cowhide on order, so I look forward to making a comparative analysis in person.

As for the G&B, I agree 100% that it's a matter of personal preference. I was just curious as to the cause of the sleeve issue, and also interested in a discussion that would hopefully lead to a more informed customer base. If you like the Expedition in spite of (or even because of) the way the sleeves fit, then more power to you -- buy it, wear it, enjoy it. I just wished I'd been aware of the issue before I got my Expeditions.

It's actually been over a year since I owned an Indy jacket... I got rid of my ca. 2002 Wested because some of the details weren't right (those "U" shaped pocket bottoms finally drove me nuts), and got rid of the Expos because of the drape (goat) and sleeve (lamb) issues. Then I got into repro A2s (John Chapman of Goodwear Leather is an absolute wizard with A2s... he has new horsehide and new patterns and they just look sick. Yes, that is a plug!), which took up my available jacket capital for awhile. I tried a Todd's standard, but it wasn't for me. Then TN came along and seemed to have nailed the Raiders jacket. Can't wait to get mine!

Edit: LOL at the auto edit... I had it originally as "[alternative term for 'vacuumed'] up my available jacked capital," and it was turned into "stunk up my available jacket capital." Context is everything.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:22 pm

Rundquist wrote:
that_dog wrote:
Rundquist wrote:Leather has everything to do with the drape. On top of that, how well the jacket fits you also has a lot to do with it. I wouldn't read much more into it than that. The cowhide CS jacket hangs differently than any other movie jacket for instance. Yeah a TN Raider jacket is not quite the same as a G&B expo., but the thing that really makes them different is the leather. Leather is what really gives a jacket its character.
Rundquist, I pretty much agree with all of this, but it doesn't explain the G&B sleeve issue, as it recurs in both goat and lamb... and based on personal experience, the G&B goat and lamb are very, very different leathers, with very different draping characteristics.

I could buy the "fit" issue as a potential explanation if I didn't see so many photos of Expeditions with the wonky sleeves. For an off-the-rack jacket, the Expedition seems to have this problem across a broad spectrum of wearers.

The TN Raiders is the only Indy jacket that I've had that did emulate the drape of the sleeves, and I've had Westeds, G&B's, and US Wings. I attribute it to the hide. Just because G&B has different hides doesn’t mean that they don’t display the same characteristics. Their lamb is not the same as the TN lamb. If the drape diminishes your enjoyment of a jacket, find something else. That’s the bottom line.

Rundquist I'm confused by what you are saying there.

Are you saying the TN Raiders you have emulates the drape of the sleeves of the movie jacket, or of your G+B?

" Just because G&B has different hides doesn’t mean that they don’t display the same characteristics."

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:08 pm

RCSignals wrote:

Rundquist I'm confused by what you are saying there.

Are you saying the TN Raiders you have emulates the drape of the sleeves of the movie jacket, or of your G+B?

" Just because G&B has different hides doesn’t mean that they don’t display the same characteristics."

The TN has the sleeve ripples like the movie jacket. I'm saying that the reason is the hide. It was stated that the G&B's all had the sleeve "flaw" because of something inherent in its design (I only use the term “flaw” because that is the context in which some in these posts describe it). I say that the non “rippled” sleeve comes more from the leather used in a G&B jacket. Just because G&B leathers are different is not proof of anything in my opinion. G&B leather pretty much all possess the same qualities. I like their leathers myself, but if you want the Raiders ripple effect, a TN would be better suited. Cheers

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:32 pm

Thanks for the clarification Rundquist.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:44 pm

Rundquist wrote:Just because G&B leathers are different is not proof of anything in my opinion. G&B leather pretty much all possess the same qualities.

Are you saying that the G&B goat and lamb "possess the same qualities"? If so, what qualities are those? (I mean beyond being high-quality leather... there is no dispute that G&B uses very nice skins.) I ask because in my experience the goat and lamb are very different materials, and the jackets they are made of behave and wear very differently.

As for "ripples," if you look at the first picture in this thread of me in my lamb Expo, you will see the lower sleeves have some nice wrinkles setting in (which, BTW, the goat Expo never came close to having). I think the lamb Expo could be a great Raiders jacket -- drape and everything -- if it weren't for the upper sleeves.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:57 pm

I've seen a LOT of jackets on this site, and I think the leather / tanning quality & style has a HUGE part to play in the look. Some people focus on measurements to the umpteenth degree, but even if your specs are spot on, it still CAN'T look like the real deal without the right TYPE of lamb processing. I didn't truly realise this until I got my shrunken lamb Indy1 from Tony. You look at those shoulder / upper arm wrinkling in ALL those shots from the movie? The Nowak does it ALL THE TIME.

Just because it's lamb doesn't mean it's right.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:13 pm

Yojimbo Jones wrote:I think the leather / tanning quality & style has a HUGE part to play in the look.

I don't think anyone would disagree with this (I certainly don't), but the issue with the Expedition sleeves recurs irrespective of whether the jacket is made with G&B's goat (stiff, pebbly, very tough finish) or lamb (soft, smooth, wears and abrades fairly easily). Thus, I don't think the "problem" (recognizing that not everyone sees it as such) stems from the leathers G&B uses.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:46 pm

that_dog wrote:
Yojimbo Jones wrote:I think the leather / tanning quality & style has a HUGE part to play in the look.
I don't think anyone would disagree with this (I certainly don't), but the issue with the Expedition sleeves recurs irrespective of whether the jacket is made with G&B's goat (stiff, pebbly, very tough finish) or lamb (soft, smooth, wears and abrades fairly easily). Thus, I don't think the "problem" (recognizing that not everyone sees it as such) stems from the leathers G&B uses.

Unless you get a vegetable tanned goatskin from G&B, their goatskins tend not to hold creases. Their lambskin certainly doesn't naturally hold creases. They use leathers that are smooth. You really have to wear the heck out of one of their jackets for the wear to show. Many people like this attribute. Many Indy fans do not for obvious reasons. Again, I like the leathers that G&B uses. Their jackets possess a real world quality that I like. However, everything that you see in the pictures is duplicated naturally by the hide that TN uses. The stuff that TN uses reacts like the movie jackets right out of the box. I'm telling you, it's the hide.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:10 pm

that_dog wrote:
Yojimbo Jones wrote:I think the leather / tanning quality & style has a HUGE part to play in the look.
I don't think anyone would disagree with this (I certainly don't), but the issue with the Expedition sleeves recurs irrespective of whether the jacket is made with G&B's goat (stiff, pebbly, very tough finish) or lamb (soft, smooth, wears and abrades fairly easily). Thus, I don't think the "problem" (recognizing that not everyone sees it as such) stems from the leathers G&B uses.

Yeah mate, I agree. They're 2 different issues that have ended up intertwined (as usual!)

Could it be that this is a case where the 2 factors are coming into play to create what we see in these jackets? Because I disagree that we see this effect in the movie.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:22 pm

I certainly haven't seen the G&B sleeve look in Raiders, or any of the frame grabs or stills I've seen on this forum over the years. That's why I think it's a problem for the Expedition to have this feature.

There are all sorts of variables that could cause this issue, including pattern, leather, and G&B's method of constructing its jackets. I don't think it's the pattern as such -- I doubt the stunt jacket the Expedition was copied from had this issue for reasons I outlined above. I also don't think it's the leather because it occurs irrespective of the Expo being lamb or goat, which are two very different materials. I think it must be the way G&B builds its sleeves and/or attaches them to the bodies of their jackets. Not being a tailor or jacket maker or designer, I have no idea what specifically would cause the sleeve issue, but I'mcurious to figure it out.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:01 pm

that_dog what other makers jackets have you seen that 'G+B effect' on? In the first post you mentioned you have noticed on some other makers jackets.

I have also seen similar issues from time to time in pictures of other makers' jackets. But it seems somewhat endemic in the Expedition and a rarity with other jackets.