HELP!! On the fence....Wested...U.S.Wings....

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:43 pm

Wested.....U.S.Wings....You get the picture

I have been throwing the idea back and forth for the past 2 months on which one to buy. I left FS out of the equation because I can't afford one, and the Wested and U.S.Wings look awesome.
I've read every debate in the COW more than once, and am still unsure.
I'm the type of person who will decide on one, and always wonder about the the other. The grass is always greener as they say.
I know, most of you hardcore gearheads have more than one, but It's not in the budget right now. I also want to order one soon because I'd like to have it for this winter, and it's starting to get there up in PA.
Sorry, I'm rambling, but I guess I need to choose wisely, and get one that is quality made. I'm sure they both are, and I'm not exactly worried about screen accuracy. Help!

P.S I'm 5'9', 230lbs, not fat but definatly husky. If someone here that is about the same build and owns a U.S.Wings, what is the appropriate size, because they say they run a little snug.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:28 am

You'll probably need a 'large' in the Wings sizing. Bear in mind, the differences are that Wested's are custom made. You give Peter and co. your specs, and once made, you KNOW it will fit YOU. Wings, on the other hand, is off the rack sizing, and you know how that works....YOU adjust to the jacket. WIngs are great jackets, especially for off the rack stock, and I've owned and loved every one I've had to date. Wested's on the other hand, are all to YOUR specs. (did I say that enough? (grins)) Either way, you're going to be a happy camper. Regards. Michaelson

Indiana Janice · Post by **Indiana Janice** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:38 am

I have owned several westeds and another is on the way. I think Peter is amazing and I don't see why anyone would buy anything else. After all, he DID do the original jackets. Everything else is a copy of his work.

Before I get yelled at, I have never seen or owned a FS jacket.

Someone with both may have a less biased opinion than me.

Now excuse me while I hide from the FS owners 8-[

Janice

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:50 am

WESTED. Period, I like the Sarge, and what hes doing, but in my opinion US Wings is overpriced, and lower quality than Wested. Also, you can buy a jacket from the guy that made the originals!! For only $250-$260!
Cant beat that with a stick.

I J

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:09 pm

Thanks for the input. I'm going for the Wested.

Now. Which one, Raiders, TofD, or LC. HMMmmmm.

I think I like the Tof D best, because it's a little longer, and doesn't have the bigger collar.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:21 pm

You're not out of the woods yet.....what leather are you going to order? Cowhide, lambskin, goatskin? authentic or standard? non or predistressed? With or without press studs? One or two inside pockets? With or without zips on those pockets? with or without your name inside? LOTS more to sort through, but man, when you receive it, it will be YOUR jacket. Enjoy the ride!! Regards. Michaelson

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:44 pm

...with sliders or with D-rings, with gussets or with no gussets, with brass hardware or with nickel hardware, with cotton lining or with satin lining, or with a combination of both, with fish n’ chips or just the chips..., er, well maybe not the last one.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:52 pm

Heck, who knows, Rixter. Peter may try and ship that too!

Regards. Michaelson

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:52 pm

I say go for the classic Raiders, lambskin with cotton lining. That's the true original and the quintessential Indiana Jones jacket that started it all.

Cheers,
Sebas

Whip Master · Post by **Whip Master** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:16 pm

Go for the Wested Raiders

SAB · Post by **SAB** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:22 pm

I could understand if someone wanted a flightsuit jacket over a Wested. If you've got the money, they are apparently super high quality.

But why a US Wings ?
I don't understand this. I never really hear people rave about them like an FS or a Wested.
(US Wings owners please post your rave!)

The Wested is far cheaper, you can have it totally custom made with modifications for no extra cost and it is by THE Indy jacket maker...

Quality wise, Wested is the only one I can speak for personally. I'm wearing my ToD cowhide right now, and Wested quality is top notch.

Something to keep in mind as well:
When ToD is called 'the longer jacket' this is only in reference to the Raiders jacket. Its still a short jacket compared to the majority of most modern day jackets. I was (pleasently) suprised at its shortness

I say go for the classic Raiders, lambskin with cotton lining. That's the true original and the quintessential Indiana Jones jacket that started it all.

I disagree.
It was lambskin because that looked nicest on screen but the jacket was obviously supposed to be made of something far tougher considering what Indy put it through.
Big can of worms, I know

Han Jones · Post by **Han Jones** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:27 pm

I would absolutley go with the wested. The jacket is custom made and very inexpensive, but you you could not tell. The only draw back with getting a wested is that it will make you want to get another, and another....

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:46 am

Rave about a Wings!? Ok, I LOVE WIngs jackets. They're well made, tough as nails, and will probably last as long as anything Wested or FS can make. I've probably owned as many, if not more Wings jackets over the years than the other two makers, but we're comparing apples to oranges here....(well, red apples to yellow ones, ok?

) Wings are off the rack sizing. Period. No choices, no changes, no alterations, just what they have is what you get! I've been pleased with every one of the Wings jackets I've had, and I've had everything from the first cowhide, to lambskin (not my MOST favorite, but lots of folks like them), to a VIP (to date my VERY favorite cowhide of any jacket maker. I'm seriously thinking about saving my pennies and possibily getting one of their VIP A-2's someday), and of the three makers have ALWAYS been first to be willing to experiment with different leathers to satisfy us. They introduced a fine distressed cowhide, the 'Old Cow Indy' (no longer available) in order to fill the bill for the pre distressed crowd that folks were asking for at this forum, and were the first to make the cotton Raiders jacket. The only problem they really have is that once they reach a certain level on a design, they stop dead in their tracks. If they had made the changes on the jacket that _ was pushing for, there MAY not have even BEEN an FS Expedition, at least at the level and acceptance that it now enjoys.They refused to offer the cotten Indy in dark brown, offering only khaki, and Peter finally picked up the challenge and his is absolutely perfect. (well, duh, what did I expect? (grins)) Are they worth the monies? I think so, as the prices HAVE been dropping over the past year. They remind me of some cars of the past. Once you get one that has no problems, it will last forever. They've had some REAL customer service/return snafu's in the past year or so that have really killed their business, but from what I've recently read, maybe those have finally be ironed out. Time will tell. If you're wanting quick turnaround, and are happy with the standard off the rack sizing, they can't be beat. Custom they ain't, but they never claimed to be.

So, enough rant on that, and back to the topic at hand!

Regards. Michaelson

Michigan Smith · Post by **Michigan Smith** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:14 pm

I like my USW Vintage Cowhide as much as my Wested. I think USW has made much progress in their jackets since I first found Indy jackets and this site online. USW changed the strap configuration from backward pull to the correct forward pull. They changed the lining from the puffy quilted nylon stuff they were using to a brown cloth twill type. They just recently started doing Long sizes (which is how I finally got one that fit). On mine, I altered the sleeve length myself, squeezing out another inch of sleeve length. I also removed and raised the side straps 1.5" up, the original stitching holes are barely visible due to the nature of the Vintage Cowhide leather coloring and texture. I did a return on my current jacket, having first ordered and med/long, and returned it no fuss/no muss for a large/long.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:37 pm

No, they do not, but standard snaps can be easily installed. I did on several of mine. Regards. Michaelson

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:05 pm

Please note, that what Michaelson is saying is that HE HIMSELF added the
studs. Wings will not, I repeat, NOT, do any custom things to any of
their jackets what-so-ever.

If you want any custom stuff, you will either have to get the studs
yourself, and then install them yourself, or have someone else do it
for you if you can even find them. And God forbid if you need a sleeve
shortened or made longer! They will rip you a new one if you ask
about this. If you need any alterations to the jacket upon its arrival,
you will have to find someone local to you to do it, as Wings will not.

And then, if you do alter it in anyway, and something else goes wrong
with it, they will NOT take it back for a refund. They will say that you
altered it, and its not their responsibilty for any problems that another
person did to it. Even though you may have only made the sleeves
shorter, and now the body hem is starting to fall apart!! They will blame
you for it, and you will be out of luck!

You are much better off going with a Wested. They will make the
jacket to your specs, and even with the customs fees, and PBB Global's
fee, the jacket will still be almost a hundred bucks cheaper than an
inferior Wings product.

Since Wings is no longer using Cooper to make their jackets, they
are not nearly as well made as they were a year ago or more.

Flathead

Jeephoto · Post by **Jeephoto** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:13 am

SAB wrote: But why a US Wings ?
I don't understand this. I never really hear people rave about them like an FS or a Wested.
(US Wings owners please post your rave!)

I LOVE my USWings Goatskin jacket. And I speak highly of it in every post regarding USWings (search the archives).

I, also, agonized over the decisions involved in deciding on my first jacket. I narrowed it down to goatskin, but Wested or Wings? Here is why I chose USWings for my first jacket: it was "close enough" to the original, it was "off-the-rack" sizing so no measurement problems, it was here in the states so no additional fees, and I could get it FAST.

Sure, I could have gone the other route, and I know that Wested is the best as far as accuracy and custom fit is concerned. But to me, I chose USWings for the reasons above and I have never regretted it. It fits fine, it is rugged, it is extremely comfortable in most weather, I try to wear it everyday (tough to do in Texas), and it looks Indy enough for me. Sure I paid a little more than I could have, but I am happy with what I got, so the money issue is a moot point. Also, I cannot speak to the customer service issues at Wings lately because I bought mine early last year, and the service was fantastic.

Just one more point: there may be some IndyFans and GearHeads that for them accuracy in the outfit is not paramount, or they cannot afford the "official" items that others can. I am of that camp. My entire outfit is "close enough" for me. I am very happy with it. My USWings jacket, Federation fedora, Mark IV bag with homemade strap, LLBean pants, Orvis shirt, and whatever brown boots I can find is the total of my outfit. I proudly wear my outfit at the many summits we have here in Dallas/FtWorth, because I am part of the group.

I have never bought a jacket as expensive as my Indy jacket, and when I ordered it I really thought I would never be able to afford as nice a jacket ever again. It took quite a chunk of change from my family expenses, so I wanted to get exactly what I wanted in the first shot. Again, I am extremely happy with my USWings Goatskin jacket.

So, if you are content enough to buy the off-the-rack USWings jacket with no customization and details close enough to the original, then the goatskin is a fine jacket. If on the other hand, accuracy is important to you, a fit perfect for your body and waiting the time it takes to get a Wested I know you will not be disappointed. If fact, I would like to order a cotton Wested when I can because I didn't care much for what USWings was offering.

Ah, the joy of IndyGear and the choices and opportunities that exist. My thanks to IndyDawg and Michaelson for the advice they gave me in my search for my jacket.

Larry

GB_Cinch · Post by **GB_Cinch** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:03 am

I have 2 Westeds, but from what I've heard here on the forum, you should go with the jacket that seems like the right choice to you. I love my Westeds, but in my search for extreme accuracy, I almost want to order another and have it customized even more. But then, would it be an accurate Indy jacket, or just my own great custom jacket. It all comes down to your own personal flavor. Get the jacket you think will satisfy you the most. You should be very happy.

Just be careful. I've seen many testimonials here were Gearheads buy one item, but slowly finding themselves buying another... and another...(Guilty). Either way this a great hobby, and I encourage anyone and everyone to join in the fun however deeply they choose. NO matter what, we all have a common interest:

Our love of these movies, and from that we all have a special bond, and that's what makes this so much fun, the company of friends we've aquired here.

GB

P.S. Just thought I'd say hey and how are ya to Jeep!

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:20 am

I have 3 Indy Jackets now, my Expo, and two USWings. A Dark Goatskin and the Distressed Cowhide. They're wonderful jackets. Period. The only thing I had to tweek on them is bring the sleeves up an inch or so. That's it. They have a nice cotten lining and have a great ToD/LC look to them (a longer length with ToD pockets and a LC style collar). You could call it a mix of the 3 movies if you will. The Goatskin is darker than my Seal Chrome Goat Expo and thicker/heavier too. The Cow is even more thick/heavy. So my Expo is my jacket of choice for warmer weather. The US Wings Goat for late fall/early spring, and the Cow for winter.

Left to Right - USWings Cow - Expo Seal Chrome Goat - USWings Goat

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:16 pm

[quote]I disagree.
It was lambskin because that looked nicest on screen but the jacket was obviously supposed to be made of something far tougher considering what Indy put it through.
[/quote]

Well allow me to retort!

The only tangible fact here is that the Raiders jacket IS lambskin. Period. About it being "obvious" that it was supposed to made out of some other type of leather, is pure speculation on your part. However, this is where individual tastes come into play. You obviously prefer a thicker, more rugged, leather but that doesn't change the fact the jacket Harrison Ford wore and the Indy jacket in all those magical scenes is a Wested lambskin. You cannot get more accurate than that.

Cheers,
Sebas[/quote]

SAB · Post by **SAB** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:13 pm

The picture of the US Wings cowhide looks amazing!
It looks like its been through its share of tombs and jungles

Well allow me to retort! The only tangible fact here is that the Raiders jacket IS lambskin. Period. About it being "obvious" that it was supposed to made out of some other type of leather, is pure speculation on your part. However, this is where individual tastes come into play. You obviously prefer a thicker, more rugged, leather but that doesn't change the fact the jacket Harrison Ford wore and the Indy jacket in all those magical scenes is a Wested lambskin. You cannot get more accurate than that.

Well its not PURE speculation. There are some pointers.

Indy did a lot of stuff in that jacket that you wouldn't dream about doing in a lambskin jacket. It would be literally torn to shreds.

(although I do realise some stunts, ie. being dragged by a truck, would be enough to destroy any leather)

Within the context of the storyline, it would have to be something like goatskin (which wouldn't be too warm in the hot weather either)

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:45 pm

Actually, if we want to look at what Indy's jacket WOULD have been
made out of, you must consider the time it is supposed to be taking
place.

If indeed, it is the late 1930's to early 1940's, then his jacket would
probably be made from Horsehide.

Why? Because america was just coming out of the horse and buggy
days, and there was an abundance of horsehide around.

That is the main reason that most A-2 jackets were made from horsehide
also. Because it was plentiful at that time.

And most of the lamb/sheepskins were being used for high altitude
jackets like the B-3, the B-6 and RAF Irvins. They would have first
shot at any of the sheep around.

Just my two cents on this.

Flathead

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:15 pm

Well, that's settled. I went for the Wested. Indiana Sith had a near mint LC Wested for sale. I should have it by the end of the week. Thanks for all the input.

Good point on most A2s being made from horse hide, though.

Imagine wearing a nice comfortable, horsehide Indy jacket.

Swweeeet!

Malenfant · Post by **Malenfant** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:10 am

I have both (purchased within a month of each other) and let me say this:

I love 'em both.

That siad, I can't wait to order another Wested - cut a little fuller (I measured small). After watching the Indy trilogy (again) on DVD I am convinced I need a goatskin Wested Temple to compliment my Lambtouch Raiders. I never thought I'd say that..

One thing, though - I don't object to crawling around under my car changing the tire and whatnot in the Wings jacket. The wested, despite the fact I want it to age, looks too nice for those types of activities.

- Malenfant

SAB · Post by **SAB** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:36 pm

Actually, if we want to look at what Indy's jacket WOULD have been
made out of, you must consider the time it is supposed to be taking
place.

If indeed, it is the late 1930's to early 1940's, then his jacket would
probably be made from Horsehide.

I've never worn a horsehide jacket.
Are they heavier and hotter than cowhide ?

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:42 pm

They sure are. Heavier and, when new, MUCH stiffer. Once broken in, though, they last several lifetimes.Top end of the 'leather toughness' scale, even higher than goatskin. Regards. Michaelson

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:46 am

Once broken in, though, they last several lifetimes.Top end of the 'leather toughness' scale,

Just another reason that Indy's jacket would have been
made from Horsehide since the timeframe was indeed
the late 30's to early 40's.

With all the things that Indy does, horse is the only leather
that would have even come close to holding up to all
the things that he did, and last as long as it has supposed
to have lasted in the timeframe of the three movies.

Flathead

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:12 am

Isn't it supposed to be a different jacket each movie?

Indy loses his gear on the bantu wind in Raiders, including his jacket.
In TOD, he loses it (but miraculously gets it back at the finale), but in TOD the style is very diferent.

I also tend to imagine the jacket as being cowhide for some reason - particularly in LC, it just looks like cowhide to my eye...although of course they used lambskin in the movies for the better drape.

Al

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:11 pm

Isn't it supposed to be a different jacket each movie?

Indy loses his gear on the bantu wind in Raiders, including his jacket.
In TOD, he loses it (but miraculously gets it back at the finale), but in TOD the style is very diferent.

I also tend to imagine the jacket as being cowhide for some reason - particularly in LC, it just looks like cowhide to my eye...although of course they
used lambskin in the movies for the better drape.

Your comparing apples to oranges here. We are not talking
about the actual jackets made in the movie, which are all
indeed slightly different in style.

We are comparing what the jacket would have been made
out of back in the late 1930's or early 1940's.

Work jackets made back then would not be made of lambskin
but probably horsehide.

Now, the jackets that are made for movies, to be worn
only a short time, can be made from just about anything
you wish, as they are thrown away when shooting of the
movie is done. Usually.

But we are talking about, is if it was 1938 right now, this
very minute, and you went to a leather place to get a
jacket, and it was going to be used as a WORK jacket,
you would most probably get one made from horsehide,
as they were VERY abundant back in 1938.

You would not have been given a lambskin jacket for
two reasons. One, is that they were mostly using the lamb/
shearling pelts for flightjackets, and two, for a work jacket,
then as it is now, lambskin would never, ever hold up under
a daily hardworking environment.

Thats what we are talking about in this case.

The things you said are true, but what we are refering to
is what the jacket would have been made out of if it was
1938 right now, and you needed a jacket for your work.

Flathead

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:58 pm

what the jacket would have been made out of if it was
1938 right now, and you needed a jacket for your work.

Well, according to...

http://www.flightjacket.com/faq.aspx

...it may have been a goatskin jacket.

"By the time that WWII arrived and the demand for A-2 jackets was extremely high, and the horsehide supply diminished (the end of the horse and buggy era, and machinery introduced in farming) the Army spec was revised to goat skin, and the color spec to “Seal Brown” which is known today as Medium Brown."

But here in the UK, we had clothing coupons and no leather availability at all to the average man, so I guess my work jacket would have been something not quite so stylish, like 'potato sack' or something...

I'll ask my ole grandfather when next I see him.

Regards

Al

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:30 pm

I'll ask my ole grandfather when next I see him.

Now that is a resource I would trust to know!! Since he was
there, he will know more than most about this!!

Not too many military WWII jackets were made of Goatskin. Some
where, but not many. As a matter of fact, most military A-2 jacket specs
called out for only horsehide.

And once they realised that the leather was getting very expensive
due to the fact that it took more and more hides to make the jackets,
they discontinued making the A-2 leather jackets, and opted for other
materials.

Once the military started to make their jackets from other things, the
leather jackets became more of a prize, and flight crews still wanted them.

If you look at the B-2 shearling caps, they were replaced in the early
40's by better head protection, but the bomber crews liked the style
so much, you can see them wearing them straight until the end of the
war.

But, still, if Indy was indeed doing any adventures, it would have been
in horsehide, as he had supposedly had the jacket he wore in Raiders
for a few years. And that would put his purchase of the jacket in the
early to mid 1930's, and that would really sinch the horsehide.

Flathead

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:36 pm

Oh, and one thing I forgot. The use of horsehide was much more
acceptable because due to the size of the back panel on most jackets
of the time being made of just one big piece, like the A-2, you needed
to have a larger animal to produce that size hide in order to make
that size panel.

It wasn't until you started to see multi-panel jackets, that smaller
animals like the goat came into place. You could get away with using
smaller hides once you changed your jacket specs to have multi-panel
backs and sleeves.

Thats also the reason some will argue that steer/cow hides were used
for the flight jackets as well. But if you look at just the WWII jacket
specs, it calls out for horsehide, not steer/cow.

The Navy G-1 is a good example of a multi-panel military jacket.
Because of the bi-swing back, like our Indy jackets, you could use
smaller animals, and thus save on the amount of hides that would
have normally been thrown away because they were too small.

Flathead

SAB · Post by **SAB** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:59 pm

They sure are. Heavier and, when new, MUCH stiffer. Once broken in, though, they last several lifetimes.Top end of the 'leather toughness' scale, even higher than goatskin. Regards. Michaelson

Thanks for the reply!

So have people annoyed Peter about adding horsehide as an option ?

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:46 am

Flathead - thanks for that, very interesting stuff.

Here's another link which is kinda relevant to the 'leather toughness' debate, although it's actually talking about gun holster leather...

http://www.horseshoe.co.uk/which.htm

Cheers

Al

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:23 am

I know horsehide was considered when _ and Peter were discussing changes, but I don't think it was ever followed through on. Regards. Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:24 am

I know horsehide was considered when _ and Peter were discussing changes, but I don't think it was ever followed through on. Regards. Michaelson

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:40 pm

sebas wrote:
I disagree.
It was lambskin because that looked nicest on screen but the jacket was obviously supposed to be made of something far tougher considering what Indy put it through.
Well allow me to retort! The only tangible fact here is that the Raiders jacket IS lambskin. Period. About it being "obvious" that it was supposed to made out of some other type of leather, is pure speculation on your part. However, this is where individual tastes come into play. You obviously prefer a thicker, more rugged, leather but that doesn't change the fact the jacket Harrison Ford wore and the Indy jacket in all those magical scenes is a Wested lambskin. You cannot get more accurate than that.

Cheers,
Sebas

It’s been said that lambskin was chosen because it looked like cowhide and was much cooler to wear in hot climates. They knew that the film would be made in very hot climates. A real adventurer would never wear lambskin. I mean come on. I like lambskin, but I don’t particularly go on any real adventures. Heck, if you’re not careful, you can snag lambskin on some decidedly “pedestrian” outings. If you really want to split hairs, the Raiders jacket was not even a “Wested”. Wested didn’t exist at the time. The jacket was made by Peter Botwright as a subcontract from Berman’s and Nathan’s.

FLATHEAD wrote:
Once broken in, though, they last several lifetimes.Top end of the 'leather toughness' scale,
Just another reason that Indy's jacket would have been
made from Horsehide since the timeframe was indeed
the late 30's to early 40's.

With all the things that Indy does, horse is the only leather
that would have even come close to holding up to all
the things that he did, and last as long as it has supposed
to have lasted in the timeframe of the three movies.

Flathead

I’m not debating that Indy’s jacket might have been made from horsehide, had he been a real person. I disagree with the statement that horsehide is the only leather that would have held up to “Indiana Jones” type abuse. Of the original A-2’s that are still around, the goatskin ones have held up the best over the last 60 years.

FLATHEAD wrote:
Not too many military WWII jackets were made of Goatskin. Some
where, but not many. As a matter of fact, most military A-2 jacket specs
called out for only horsehide.

Flathead

The Navy M-422 (G-1) was made exclusively from goatskin. The Navy was trying to “one up” the Army/Air corps (which already had the A-2), when they designed their flight jacket. They succeeded. The G-1 is a much more serviceable jacket than the A-2, partly due to the goatskin jacket material. Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:48 pm

I always describe lambskin as best for the 'urban adventurer' myself.

Regards. Michaelson

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:13 pm

The Navy M-422 (G-1) was made exclusively from goatskin. The Navy was trying to “one up” the Army/Air corps (which already had the A-2), when they designed their flight jacket. They succeeded. The G-1 is a much more serviceable jacket than the A-2, partly due to the goatskin jacket material. Cheers

The reason that the navy went to goat over any other hide, is
because goat is the only leather that is naturally water repellant. No
other hide, except for maybe Deerskin, is naturally water repellent.
Not horse, not cow, not lamb. Just goat and deer. If you look at actual Navy
specs from WWII, that is the main reason for using goat. The only other
way to make other hides shead water, is to add things in the tanning
process, which costs money. Deerskin is not anywhere near tough enough
for any kind of work jackets, so that lets that out.

What I am talking about is when Indy's stories actually took place. They took
place before the war started, so the jackets you describe did not exsist
yet. I am not saying that a goatskin jacket would not have held up to
hard wearing like a horsehide jacket, I am saying that it is most probable
that a work jacket, made in 1935, would have been made from horsehide.
Does goat hold up as well as horse? Yes. Would a work jacket, made
in the 30's have been made from goat? Probably not, as jacket designs
were still using large patterns, and you can not get large size pattern jackets from
a goat. You can get them from a cow, or a horse. Once the smaller
pattern jackets came around, like the Navy G-1 that you describe
then you can use smaller animal hides.

Yes, goat is tough. But Kangaroo is much tougher than goat. You
can actually shave down a Kangaroo hide down almost 60 percent of
its original thickness, and it will have 90 percent of its tear resistance.

You can not say that about any other leather. Not horse, not goat, not
cow. But Kangaroo is expensive, and it would not have been cost effective
to use it during this timeframe.

We are strictly talking about what Indy's jacket would have been made
out of, if it was 1930 again. It would most probably been made from
good old horse.

Flathead

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:53 pm

FLATHEAD wrote:
The Navy M-422 (G-1) was made exclusively from goatskin. The Navy was trying to “one up” the Army/Air corps (which already had the A-2), when they designed their flight jacket. They succeeded. The G-1 is a much more serviceable jacket than the A-2, partly due to the goatskin jacket material. Cheers
The reason that the navy went to goat over any other hide, is
because goat is the only leather that is naturally water repellant. No
other hide, except for maybe Deerskin, is naturally water repellent.
Not horse, not cow, not lamb. Just goat and deer. If you look at actual Navy
specs from WWII, that is the main reason for using goat. The only other
way to make other hides shead water, is to add things in the tanning
process, which costs money. Deerskin is not anywhere near tough enough
for any kind of work jackets, so that lets that out.

What I am talking about is when Indy's stories actually took place. They took
place before the war started, so the jackets you describe did not exsist
yet. I am not saying that a goatskin jacket would not have held up to
hard wearing like a horsehide jacket, I am saying that it is most probable
that a work jacket, made in 1935, would have been made from horsehide.
Does goat hold up as well as horse? Yes. Would a work jacket, made
in the 30's have been made from goat? Probably not, as jacket designs
were still using large patterns, and you can not get large size pattern jackets from
a goat. You can get them from a cow, or a horse. Once the smaller
pattern jackets came around, like the Navy G-1 that you describe
then you can use smaller animal hides.

Yes, goat is tough. But Kangaroo is much tougher than goat. You
can actually shave down a Kangaroo hide down almost 60 percent of
its original thickness, and it will have 90 percent of its tear resistance.

You can not say that about any other leather. Not horse, not goat, not
cow. But Kangaroo is expensive, and it would not have been cost effective
to use it during this timeframe.

We are strictly talking about what Indy's jacket would have been made
out of, if it was 1930 again. It would most probably been made from
good old horse.

Flathead

I never said that the Indy jacket would have been made out of goatskin. I merely commented that goatskin would holdup better than horsehide. I don’t dispute your point about goatskin being used for the M-422 because of it’s water resistance, but that wasn’t the only reason for using it. Goatskin’s ability to drape in an intricate jacket pattern was also a factor for using it (which goes along with what you said). The M-422 was born in 1938 the same year as LC. Cheers

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:01 pm

Getting back to the original post, and speaking of goatskin, I wonder if 'Blues' man ever really made a decision?

Let me toss THIS little wrench in the machinery.....if you watch the FS clearance page, you occasionally see an Expedition wander through on either a return or a prototype that costs about the same as either a Wested OR a Wings, and there isn't a THING wrong with the clearance rack either! How about THAT for a mind bender, Blues?

Regards. Michaelson

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:37 pm

Hey Michaelson. I went for the Wested. I bought Indiana Sith's used LC Cow. I came home this evening and there it was.

WOOOOOOOHHOOOO!!

I love it! What a great jacket! Now I'll wear this sucker til after Christmas, and THEN, then I will order my brand new custom Wested.

Thanks for all the input. I was leaning towards the Wested anyway.

Now, eat dinner, get a shower, put the boy to nite-nite, and....

Pose in the mirror for about an hour with my Jacket and fedora.

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:12 am

Hi guys,
Let me add another spin on the "screen accurate" debate. Well, as I said before, there is no debating that the THE Raiders jacket is lambskin(speculation on material typically used in the 30s, durability aside).

I know many of you say that it was lambskin becuse of the way it drapes, etc.

However, one of the most over-looked but distinctive things about the "screen used" Raiders jacket is the way it flaps around from side to side when Indy is in action: Exapmples: Indy taking off right after grabbing the fertility idol and especially in the epic fist fight with the Nazi mechanic. That very lightness of the jacket is, in my opinion, quintessentially "Raiders."

Cheers,
Sebas