Bates worked on Raiders hat???

[Snapbrim76]

One of the hat shops I've been visiting in London (Bates Hats) have made a claim that I'd like verified. They claim to have been involved in the making of Indy's hat "for the first film". I've never had the nerve to call someone a liar just in case I'm mistaken. The first time they made this claim (which I had forgotten until my visit recently) it was before I'd heard of HJ. But I was in Bates the other day and they said it again and I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing? Surely they wouldn't lie to someone who admitted to being an Indy fan!

So is there a chance that HJ used them (or their workshop) for the making of the Raiders fedora? Am I just ignorant and should already know this? Or are they one of the companies that were approached to give a sample for consideration?

Can anyone shed any light?

[Michaelson]

I'll have to say, in all the years I've been involved in this hobby, and that's going back a LONG ways, I've never heard of this company.


Here's their website, and I see absolutely NO mention of it, so that's kind of odd considering the potential sales they could have had all these years if it were true.

http://www.bates-hats.co.uk/soft_felt.html

Regards! Michaelson

[gwyddion]

Where is this company located? What street and address?

Regards, Geert

[Michaelson]

Edward Bates Ltd, 21a Jermyn Street, St. James's, London, SW1Y 6HP

Regards! Michaelson

[Snapbrim76]

They're in Jermyn Street about a 5 minute walk from SAB.

[Snapbrim76]

Any possibility they wanted to remain low key and not be flooded by orders. Or maybe one of they guys who work there used to work for HJ in some form or other?

[kiltie]

I've got an old hat from that shop...

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj29 ... G_0090.jpg

The hat ( non-Indy ) is in this thread:

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41311

[Michaelson]

Any possibility they wanted to remain low key and not be flooded by orders. Or maybe one of they guys who work there used to work for HJ in some form or other?

Anything is possible, but 'low key' for a merchant is sure contrary to the rule. How else do you make money?

I just re-read the linked post, kiltie. Do you think that Stetson homberg of yours came from the shop, or was it just in that box when you got it?

Regards! Michaelson

[gwyddion]

Where is this company located? What street and address?

Regards, Geert

Well, that rules out my hunch that they were in the building HJ used to be at in 1980

Regards, Geert

[kiltie]

Any possibility they wanted to remain low key and not be flooded by orders. Or maybe one of they guys who work there used to work for HJ in some form or other?

Anything is possible, but 'low key' for a merchant is sure contrary to the rule. How else do you make money?

I just re-read the linked post, kiltie. Do you think that Stetson homberg of yours came from the shop, or was it just in that box when you got it?

Regards! Michaelson

I get the impression, Michaelson, that the hat came from that shop. The hat fits snugly into the box, which has the form that the crown fits in. Both the box and the hat had that odd, yellow/orange celophane whatever it is that old, disused hats tend to get on them ( what is that stuff, anyway? ). In any event, the quasi-custom nature of the box tends to point to it being original, though I wouldn't necessarily testify in open court ( or, God help me, on this forum ) that I'm certain.

[Michaelson]

Well said, my friend!


Regard !Michaelson

[Fedora]

At one time, Stetson sold hats through retailors or hat shops in the U.K. This may have been what your hat was. A Stetson from Bates.

Interesting claim from Bates. The history of the Raiders fedora is shrouded in mystery. But this is a new one. Who knows? Well, Mr. Swales, but he ain't talking. Fedora

[moses]

I like the look of the "antelope"- would look very nice in brown. might have to drop in on them.

[binkmeisterRick]

I'd just be 100% certain they DID work on the Indy hat (as opposed to just selling the officially licensed hats) before spreading such a claim around. Other hatters have tried to lay such claims only to have been proven wrong, yet the damage is still done and the lies get perpetuated. There's enough muddy water in this hobby as is!

[theinterchange]

I thought we were talking NORMAN Bates.. not a hat company!

Randy

[Erri]

Both the box and the hat had that odd, yellow/orange celophane whatever it is that old, disused hats tend to get on them ( what is that stuff, anyway? ). In any event, the quasi-custom nature of the box tends to point to it being original, though I wouldn't necessarily testify in open court ( or, God help me, on this forum ) that I'm certain.

I have the exact same box and VERY similar artwork but it's from Lock & Co., they do look "vintage" although they are not older than the 90's (possibly even 2000). I believe all these St. James Street hatters buy EVERYTHING from the same suppliers to save money or perhaps because not many hattery suppliers are left nowadays.

I never heard of Bates claim to Indy-fame but I have seen the shop when passing that street and it looked so nice. I didn't have time to stop (I noticed it from the bus a couple of times) but it definitely has an old-time appeal.

From flikr...


(what's with the stuffed cat??? )

[theinterchange]

Norman owns the company.... nuff said.

randy

[Michaelson]

Well, that would definitely explain the cat.....

Regards! Michaelson

[Erri]

wonder what they keep in the basement, Mrs Bates' mummy perhaps?

[Michaelson]

Next time you're in town, Erri, YOU go ask.

Regards! Michaelson

[Erri]

I certainly will. With my charm I can get information even from the most stuck-up Londoner of St. James Street



But first I want to hear WHERE this claim came from. Snapbrim76 was an employee in the shop to tell you about Indy? And how did it come up in the conversation? And what did they exactly tell you? Please let me(/us) know more

[bigrex]

Surely they wouldn't lie to someone who admitted to being an Indy fan!

Knowing salesmen, there is always a chance he may have just said it because you said you were an Indy fan! I'm sure he would not be aware that there are fan(atic)s that trace the origin of makers for everything from Indy whips to shoes, and about the cat, maybe they've dabbled in cat hair hats.

[Snapbrim76]

I've just phoned them asking if they do an indy style and I even mentioned Herbert Johnson making the hat. They said "yes, well HJ keep getting bought by different companies. But we actually SUPPLIED the hats for the FIRST TWO films, but not the last one."

A few things about that conversation:

1) They didn't seem to realize that there were more than just 3 films
2) They didn't mention any of the films by name
3) They didn't say they actually made them, just "supplied"

Erri it's time for you to work your magic, they know my face too well! I think I'm not assertive enough to challenge and scrutinize them too deeply. Something about the posh accent makes me feel like I'm being rude to someone important - I know that's ridiculous.

So see what you can do mate!

[Erri]

That's really interesting!

The fact that there are not aware of a fourth film does not surprise me. Not everyone goes to the cinema or cares about it too much. I know it's a blasphemy around here but not all people are like that.

The fact that they said "supplied" is even more interesting. They didn't actually say they "made" them... that still leaves some space to truth. If they had sayd "we made them" you could have just walked out of the shop without listening further.

I wish I could come to London more often... aside from Italy, I'm Glasgow-based and that's far from The City. I'll be in Scotland in August but unfortunately there are no plans of travelling to London during my stay (otherwise I would have attended the Royal Masonic College summit). So, yes I'll definitely go there and work my magic but I'm not sure when... London is so expensive man! (and yet so fashinating)

I noticed this image on their website
and other things which certainly make this hat shop VERY intriguing... from an Indygear point of view. I might contact them by email and see where this goes.

One last question, when was the last time you were in contact with them?

[Snapbrim76]

well, the phone call I mentioned was this morning. And my last visit in person was a day or 2 after I first started this thread - about week ago.

[Erri]

ok it's best then to let them forget about it first. I'll probably contact them in september. I don't want them to think there is something going on or that too many people are interested in it otherwise, like Sherlock Holmes says, they always shut like oysters!

Patience is the key.

[Snapbrim76]

What about an anon phone call to HJ to see if they used Bates as some sort of supplier? I'm sure HJ would be interested to hear this claim and maybe even shed some light on the subject?

What do you think Mr Holmes?

[Erri]

Well if Swales was still available for interrogation I would say yes, he surely would know... but I doubt that the people currently working in Swaine Adney Brigg knows anything about anything. And they would surely not tell you anything anyway because if you run a business you want customers to come to you, not to your (cheaper) supplier.

Consider that already in the mid-80's, HJ shop was just a shop not a hattery anymore and hats came in already boxed. Only the manager would know where they were coming from (employees rarely know these details, or care about)... so if you're phoning be sure you talk to the manager. I'm very curious on the subject.

[Ranger36]

The game's afoot' !

[Fedora]

The fact that they said "supplied" is even more interesting.

Going by the pic of the Bates shop, with those big stacks of raw bodies.....they could have indeed sold Swales the bodies, that he used to create the Raider fedora. That would make ALOT of sense. Because, if Swales had ordered hats, from his supplier, the lead time would have been longer, and hence Swales would not be able to get them in, in time to bespoke the hat. There may be grain of truth in this Bates claim. The key word is "may". And of course, being a businessman, he would never "fess" up to using Bates. Not good for HJ.

But it makes sense that Swales needed bodies with no eyelet holes, per the Aussie hat that as used as the model, and since I now how long it takes to get an order of hats from their current supplier of the Poet, Swales had to have used some source, in the interest of the time factor involved in the film. This source could have been Bates, for the raw bodies. So, he goes and gets the brown bodies, from Bates, and this eventually became the bespoke Raiders fedora. All of this is so logical, and not only that but was used by hatters, even to this day. You need a body, the time frame does not allow you to wait for months on an order being made for you, so you borrow, or buy from another hatter who has bodies in stock. I used Art for those side seamed liners. And other hatters borrow all the time when time is of the essence in producing a hat. Fedora

[binkmeisterRick]

Next thing that'll happen is the ribbon shop will start advertising, "We made the ribbons for the hats that were supplied to the guy who sent them to HJ who cut and shaped them for the costumer for the first two Indiana Jones movies but not the last one."

[Ranger36]

[Snapbrim76]

nice one Bink! "I supplied the food for the rabbits for the felt for the suppliers for the hatters..." etc etc

You're right - where does it end?

@Steve, its hard to tell from a photo but I'm not sure those are raw bodies. I've been in the shop and I'm pretty sure they're tweed flat-top caps or 'cheese cutters' as we call them.

[Fedora]

@Steve, its hard to tell from a photo but I'm not sure those are raw bodies. I've been in the shop and I'm pretty sure they're tweed flat-top caps or 'cheese cutters' as we call them.

Oops, I think you are right! On second look, that is what they appear to be. But if anyone was still making their own hats during this period, they would of course have extras bodies to be borrowed. For all we know, Swales my have had some in the basement of HJ. Remember those pure beaver bodies PB found in their basement, and then sold these for really big bucks to a few here? They had come across a few bodies of vintage mercury treated felt. Fedora

[Snapbrim76]

On Wednesday I'm going down to St James with another COW member to dig some more. If this claim is all lies then I'd feel bad that I've given so much publicity to a rogue. Maybe well have more answers to this mystery Wed evening (GMT).