The Bantu Wind discussions

[Raider S]

Geert, what else do you have to make you believe it was a created set? You think all that's been pointed out in the last day are mere coincidences? I think there's good evidence to show where this was shot.

Occam's razor.

[Yojimbo Jones]

Besides, although this does make it possible that it was shot on location, it doesn't make it impossible to have been shot at a soundstage. Because of all this I'm still leaning towards believing the soundstage story, unless someone can prove that it definately cannot have been shot at a soundstage.
Regards, Geert

Are you serious?

Well, putting aside the Aristotlean logic for a second... all the proof is there that is WASN'T shot on a soundstage. In fact that it was shot in a very specific location. You just don't want to see it. There's also undeniable proof that it COULDN'T have been shot on a backlot with any sort of realistic budget. If they did, they replicated not only the ship precisely, but the tiles, the railway tracks, bollards, crane, etc. etc. - why would they do this on a "cheapie" shoot? AND you have images of everything to show evidence each way. How much more would it take to convince you?

[gwyddion]

I'm hanging on to this primarily because if I didn't I would have to believe that either several key players remembered things wrong in the same way, or that _ is lying. I'm not prepared to do either without very solid evidence.


Oh, and should I come across to someone as angry in any of my posts on this, don't worry: this is not something I could even get angry or frustrated about, as I don't have a need to be right, but it's just hard to make the assumptions I mentioned. And if I come across as rude to someone, my apologies as I never mean to, but it is late, hot & humid so my writing skills are a bit sub-par

Regards, Geert

[Yojimbo Jones]

If it helps mate, no tone coming through here. I hope it's the same vice-versa.

[gwyddion]

If it helps mate, no tone coming through here. I hope it's the same vice-versa.

Don't worry, no tone coming through here either

Regards, Geert

[moses]

Maybe there is some muddling of scenes. Top folks say the Bantu scene was reshot. Maybe a different Bantu scene? IN the boat? On the deck? Or maybe only part of the scene was reshot, and cut together with the location footage?

[Dutch_jones]

Maybe there is some muddling of scenes. Top folks say the Bantu scene was reshot. Maybe a different Bantu scene? IN the boat? On the deck? Or maybe only part of the scene was reshot, and cut together with the location footage?

Well obviously the scene in the Cabin between indy and Marion is a set shot. and YES that does have the jacket in there but the scene where he takes the jacket off was cut from the movie, I saw a still of it last week but couldn't find it.

[CairoIndy]

There is only one edit in the dock scene-the very first shot of the people clapping and dancing-that could POSSIBILY have been a pick-up,but HF is not in that shot,so even if that was a pick-up(and HF was there when they filmed it wearing Martin Grace's jacket),we're still not seeing Grace's jacket on the screen.
I wish some of the hat people here would chime in and match that hat.I see the same hat on the screen as in the daylight dockside pic-and I don't see that hat in any other scenes in the film,it has a very specific look.
..oh,and nice work Raiders S! (sorry,I didn't mean to leave you out before!)

[Mike]

If certain converations were fabricated, who is also telling you these things re Lucasfilm?

Um…I am.

There are 3 of us here who have ties/friends/acquaintances with LFL. We KNOW we're watched and have been for years…and have been saying so.

I have no stake in this fight, but don't take kindly to the conspiracy theory that we're (the staff) all lying to you. Statements like this could be construed as baiting or flaming.

Be careful "Cooler King" Yojimbo in how you state things.

[Don't Call Me Junior!]

People will have to make their mind up based on what has been offered I guess.

This is not aimed directly you, YJ. I am just drawn to that statement.

This seems to imply that what has been "offered" is of limited value. Very often around here unless someone's statement comes with some type of "Certificate of Authenticity" it is assumed by some as virtually meaningless which is a shame. I suppose some skepticism is a fairly healthy thing but at some point or another you would think that a person's credibility would speak for itself. Over time a person's true character will ultimately reveal itself for better for worse. A great many members of COW have certainly revealed their true character over the years - for better and for worse.

We have a great many members that are seemingly excellent on poring over images and inferring the most minute details from those said images, others that have an amazing tenacity to hunt down those hard to find facts and tidbits with their expertise in using search engines, many that have revealed their ability to philosophize and/or argue semantics and technicalities with other members who have been attempting to do the same, members that can mimic some of those iconic moments from the movies involving their favorite character and/or gear, etc the list goes on.

And then we have a number of members who are seemingly the juiciest of them all: The ones "in the know". Members that actually have some connection to the Indiana Jones "machine". This is one of our very best sources of information! And some are all to quick to throw this information away and disregard it because said persons did not provide proof. Their character could potentially be all the proof or lack of proof that you need. You just need to look! What has motivated that member to make the statement that they just made?

The irony is that some of these people have already proved themselves time and time and time again if you care to look back in time at the information that has been brought forth thus far. I would imagine some of these members are getting tired of having to prove what they have already proven. I'm thankful that some are still interested in the magic of movies and are passionate fans themselves and of course I'm thankful that some of them still find hanging out here with some of us fun and interesting.

This is not to say that I have not enjoyed the overhead shipyard links and examining some of the details that I could make out for myself in comparison to the various shots and caps provided. It certainly introduces new elements to the search for information. The arguments are all very interesting and pretty good cases have been made on a number of fronts. But don't overlook some of the best resources we have! It can be, if it is the right person supplying the information, like rock, paper, scissors but you get to pull out something that trumps them all and win that round.

[St. Dumas]

Then detente it is.

[Raider S]

Wow, a lot of drama over what I see as a straightforward discussion: A couple people have suggested the Bantu Wind dock scene was a set, and a couple people don't agree and are seeking facts/evidence/details to support their suspicions. Sounds like a healthy exercise.

Personally, I think Rinzler is a pretty thorough guy and his making of book did a yoeman's job of documenting the Raider's shoot nearly day-by-day. After reviewing the Bantu scenes, given my own understanding of sets and the special effects of the time, I believe if the dock were a set it would have been very big, very involved and therefore documented just like the other sets were. I do not believe this was something thrown together in a few hours or even a day and feel there's now convincing evidence showing almost to the foot where these scenes were shot.

I've tried really hard to see this as a set, or a matte or a miniature (I love that stuff so it's of great interest just like the flying boat magic), but keep coming to the same conclusion.

I guess at this point it is up to people to read through this and decide what they think for themselves based on the weight they give elements of what's been presented.

[RCSignals]

People will have to make their mind up based on what has been offered I guess.

This is not aimed directly you, YJ. I am just drawn to that statement.

This seems to imply that what has been "offered" is of limited value. Very often around here unless someone's statement comes with some type of "Certificate of Authenticity" it is assumed by some as virtually meaningless which is a shame. I suppose some skepticism is a fairly healthy thing but at some point or another you would think that a person's credibility would speak for itself. Over time a person's true character will ultimately reveal itself for better for worse. A great many members of COW have certainly revealed their true character over the years - for better and for worse.

We have a great many members that are seemingly excellent on poring over images and inferring the most minute details from those said images, others that have an amazing tenacity to hunt down those hard to find facts and tidbits with their expertise in using search engines, many that have revealed their ability to philosophize and/or argue semantics and technicalities with other members who have been attempting to do the same, members that can mimic some of those iconic moments from the movies involving their favorite character and/or gear, etc the list goes on.

And then we have a number of members who are seemingly the juiciest of them all: The ones "in the know". Members that actually have some connection to the Indiana Jones "machine". This is one of our very best sources of information! And some are all to quick to throw this information away and disregard it because said persons did not provide proof. Their character could potentially be all the proof or lack of proof that you need. You just need to look! What has motivated that member to make the statement that they just made?

The irony is that some of these people have already proved themselves time and time and time again if you care to look back in time at the information that has been brought forth thus far. I would imagine some of these members are getting tired of having to prove what they have already proven. I'm thankful that some are still interested in the magic of movies and are passionate fans themselves and of course I'm thankful that some of them still find hanging out here with some of us fun and interesting.

This is not to say that I have not enjoyed the overhead shipyard links and examining some of the details that I could make out for myself in comparison to the various shots and caps provided. It certainly introduces new elements to the search for information. The arguments are all very interesting and pretty good cases have been made on a number of fronts. But don't overlook some of the best resources we have! It can be, if it is the right person supplying the information, like rock, paper, scissors but you get to pull out something that trumps them all and win that round.

Right. And Yojimbo is referring to all the information that has been offered I'm sure.
Studying anything like this involves study of all sources. Eyewitnesses don't always make the best witnesses, and experts make mistakes.
This is one area of the movie that seems to have conflicting evidence and conflicting information. Every corner has another question. Nothing is yet definitive and all sources have to be examined.
This is still about one jacket we see in one particular small part of the movie. The answers to that are still not here, and road to it is still not completely clear.

[Yojimbo Jones]

People will have to make their mind up based on what has been offered I guess.

This is not aimed directly you, YJ. I am just drawn to that statement.

This seems to imply that what has been "offered" is of limited value. ...

Right. And Yojimbo is referring to all the information that has been offered I'm sure.
Studying anything like this involves study of all sources. Eyewitnesses don't always make the best witnesses, and experts make mistakes.
This is one area of the movie that seems to have conflicting evidence and conflicting information. Every corner has another question. Nothing is yet definitive and all sources have to be examined.
This is still about one jacket we see in one particular small part of the movie. The answers to that are still not here, and road to it is still not completely clear.

Actually, though it should be applied to all, I was referring to all the shots & video of the dock that myself, RaiderS and Agent5 have most recently offered. ...so no, not limited value at all.
But as I've said above, all of the evidence for this little mystery is out for use to make a decision on, be it tangible or intangible. People can come to their own conclusions.

And yes, RC, as I mentioned a few posts back - I for one would like to go back to discussing the Bantu Wind jacket and away from this particular little red fish.

[Mike]

But I bet there's not another "Marosy" in that rolodex.

(though scarily enough, I just googled myself out of curiosity from that joke and the first entry was an obituary. )

[Yojimbo Jones]

Actually, yeah, by Googling "Robert Raymond" now I realise there are a few in the industry. But only one was involved in Schindler's List. He and I were "in development" on a feature a few years ago and thus has a few meetings, long lunches, etc. as you do. In the course of that, he told many stories, some of which were about that film, and how it came about.

I was hoping for some info beyond what could be found on the web, that could be grabbed in the course of the normal idle chit-chat after a meeting or whatever. I realise that may not be possible and wouldn't want to impose if it's too hard to come by.

[Michaelson]

Not sure what's to be gained at this point by all this.

Anything that has been offered by _ as being taken from 'chit chat' or personal discussions has been ignored as being 'unsubstantiated', and since _ has never MET this "Robert Raymond" himself, there's not much that can be offered in that respect, so there's not much point for this exchange to continue. You two can hammer this out via PM, should you so choose, or start a dedicated discussion in Lao Che.

Since the jacket discussion has COMPLETELY disappeared from radar, and was the subject topic of this thread in the first place, it's time to ring down the curtain yet again.

Thanks for coming.

Please dispose of your popcorn boxes and empty cups in the trash cans by the exit as you leave.....

Regards! Michaelson