The various scenes and styles

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:24 pm

Everybody knows that every movie has a typical hat style. But it's also true that there is more than a style in each episode of the series, we all know that.

But I can't find some post in which the different bashes are fully analyzed. And I think it would be useful to add an analysys of this kind on the main site in the fedora section.

I can see more or less the difference beetween a SOC and a Idol Grab, but I'm not able to express it in words. I'd really like to have some text which explains and compares the various bashes.

For example, why is the Well of Souls hat typical? Does the LC Truck Chase hat have some back taper? You get my point, don't you? What I'd want is something like you can read in the fedora section of the main site, but concerning, instead of the various movies, the various scenes.

Hope this thread will help us all increase our knowledge about the topic

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:11 am

44 views, no answers

anybody? please?

Post by **Michaelson** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:16 am

Could be because this topic is so well discussed and spread throughout the fedora section each and everyday, no one has the energy to do it yet again.

Regards! Michaelson

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:35 am

you got the problem. infos and discussions are shattered in many many topics with no continuity. I tried to use the Holy Search Function, but I only found fragmented and discontinuous informations.

I know that veterans are tired to repeat every day the same old stuff, and that's the reason I asked for a well-explained, tidy classification of the various styles to be put in the main site, in order to avoid its loss in the huge amount of threads of the forum.

This way, the next newbie that comes and asks the same silly question I asked would be redirected directly on the site, and there would be no need for him or anybody to collect the informations searching and digging in ancient, forgotten discussions.

[Big, anxious smile]

EDIT: please note that I'm not criticizing anyone ore anything, I'm just giving an advice that I think would be useful for everybody. It happened before that I was misunderstood (it was mainly my fault, I didn't express myself well), and I don't want it to happen again.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:48 am

Here is a pretty good explanation on this site:

http://www.pbhats.com/INDY_CUSTOM/Default.htm

The site discusses the basic differences. The LC differs in that it is considered a medium crown height, say 4" to 4 3/8", and a relaxed front pinch. The Raiders is around 4 3/4, approximately 5" bash, and a tight front pinch.

Also, the hat ribbon is a constant, at 39 mm, or appox. 1 1/2 inches. you can use that rule to basically gauge the heights per scenes, etc.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:18 pm

Actually, I second the notion that the information should be compiled into one single post and stickied at the top of the forum.

I still consider myself a newbie here, but when I first came on the board a few months ago, I was really overwhelmed with the information and having it all in one post would be really helpful to future folks.

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:44 am

Texan Scott wrote:Here is a pretty good explanation on this site:

http://www.pbhats.com/INDY_CUSTOM/Default.htm

The site discusses the basic differences. The LC differs in that it is considered a medium crown height, say 4" to 4 3/8", and a relaxed front pinch. The Raiders is around 4 3/4, approximately 5" bash, and a tight front pinch.

Also, the hat ribbon is a constant, at 39 mm, or appox. 1 1/2 inches. you can use that rule to basically gauge the heights per scenes, etc.

sorry texan, maybe I didn't explain myself well

I'm not searching the generic differences between the hats of the four movies (these are well explained in the main site of Indygear); I'm looking for the specific differences between scene and scene. I mean, I know the difference between Raiders and Last Crusade, but not between an Idol Grab hat and a Well of Souls hat, for example.

My idea was to expand this page:

http://indygear.com/igfedora.html

by adding subchapters. For example, in the chapter "Raiders of the Lost Ark Fedora" there could be subchapters like "Outiside Temple scene", "Idle Grab", "Streets of Cairo", etc.

This would avoid future folks asking the same old questions all over again - like I'm doing right now

. This forum is a real mine of informations, but its weakness, in my opinion, is that they are too scattered.

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:21 am

I can see the need for this information as it would be very helpful for newcomers. But I have to say it would be an ENORMOUS task to complete and I don't think too many here are interested in taking it upon themselves. Not trying to be negative, but most people seem to settle with their favorite style and research just that one. And since most of that would be Raiders and CS, the other movies will be kinda left out, IMO.

Just my 2 cents.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:00 am

Who better to do it than someone who sees a need for it?

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:15 am

Texan Scott wrote:Who better to do it than someone who sees a need for it?

Well, I see a need of it, but I'm not qualified for doing it

The main reason why I started this thread is because I don't know the various differences beetween styles and bashes.

@Bullit: I see what you mean, but I also think that every expert around here would be capable, if not of doing an accurate and deep research on EVERY little difference between the hats, of writing at least a simple note in which he states "the Idle Grab scene hat is typycal because this and that". I mean, one could start by providing the basic infos, and on that basis others could add their on contribute.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:25 pm

The problem is, everyone has a different opinion on what they see, even when the exact same photo is viewed by everyone involved. How do you come up with something useful when no one can agree on what they're seeing? This has gone on and on in both the jacket and fedora sections for years, and that's why you don't already see something like this stickied at the top of this section.

This is not being sidestepped at all, but be honest....do you think this hasn't been already thought of, discussed and/or attempted before after all these years? All it causes is headaches, arguments, and eventually folks walk away after throwing their hands in the air in either disgust or complete frustration.

I mean, the debate over the color of the travel hat (grey or brown) in Raiders went on for well over a decade!!!

So, if this is something you want to pursue, have at it, but believe me, there are a LOT of bodies along the side of the road behind you trying to do what you suggest.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:06 pm

You mean the travel hat was a different color?

maboot38 · Post by **maboot38** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:07 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:You mean the travel hat was a different color?

bink, you're not helping!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:08 pm

We need a new smilie holding a shotgun.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:12 pm

maboot38 wrote: bink, you're not helping!

I never said I was!

But Michaelson's right, I've seen these kinds of threads rise and fall over the years, too. In theory it's a great idea. In practice, however, it's shown itself to be quite the opposite.

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:59 pm

Ok, I see what you mean.

But I repeat, I'm not asking people to provide any little/invisible detail of every hat. I understand that, when speaking of details that cannot be examined, speculations and theories may vary, leading even to debates.

I was simply asking something like: "you talk about Idle Grab and Well of Souls, but which is the main difference between these two?". This is just an example, but coming to think about it, I don't know why are they considered different

I mean, people may disagree on minor details, but I think the majority agrees on the most typical features of the hats. For example: everybody knows that the TOD hats are more or less tapered, even if almost nobody knows how much in degrees was a particular hat tapered

Here's a good example of what I'm thinking about:

3) What are the differences between the 4 movie hats?
Raiders: Tall crown height. Distinct, tight pinch. Wide brim.
Temple of Doom: Shorter, slightly tapered crown. Relaxed pinch.
A variety of looks depending on the scene due to various suppliers.
Last Crusade: Taller crown then TOD, un-tapered. Pinch not quite as tight as Raiders. Narrower brim but with more swoop.
Crystal Skull: Very Raiders in size and shape, with a Raiders style block, but with a Last Crusade style loose pinch in front.

So I was thinking about something like:

Outside Temple: this hat is particular because it seems that it was not turned

SOC: this hat is particular because bla bla bla

Raven Bar: etc.

Not a full analysis (that could contain arbitrary details), but a generic definition of the various styles, one that nobody (or almost) would take as pretentious or argue about.

[Please note that I'm not trying to insist; it's just that I wanted to be sure I made myself perfectly clear. Given this, if still nobody is interested in delving further in this topic, I will desist]

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:04 pm

Outside Temple: this hat is particular because it seems that it was not turned

You've already stumbled, as you left the door open on this one..... "seems that it was not turned"? According to who?

That's when the fire first starts and the message gets lost in the wind storm.

Like I said, if you believe you can create something, give it a shot.

Regards! Michaelson

maboot38 · Post by **maboot38** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:05 pm

Skim through some of the jacket threads that try to decide on even one scene, and then decide if you really want to try this. (Insert suicide smiley here)

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:27 pm

Like I said, if you believe you can create something, give it a shot.

Like I said before, I don't think I could actually create anything. indeed, I'm looking for aswers, not looking forward to give answers

But I get your point. Still, if we start getting "scared" about this kind of stuff, every attempt of making new theories should be suppressed, and I don't think this would be a good thing.

I mean, it seems that nobody found anything to contest about the statements I quoted that can be found in the FAQ. And that's because they are generic, simple, "dull". And if it was done between movie and movie, why can't it be done between scene and scene?

I don't get it.

But anyway, let's put it this way: let's forget the idea about giving a stable definition to be put in a sticky topic, if the moderators consider this potentially dangerous for the wellness of the community. But at least could somebody give me an UNOFFICIAL (and then arbitrary, non-definitive, contestable) explaination about the topic?

For my own good

I'm tired of reading thing I don't get, so it would be grand for me to have at least basic definitions of the various styles.

Any help is appreciated and every opinion will be good for me

Don't try to be perfect or absolutely precise, I just want to know what you mean when you say, for example, "Steve please, I want my hat bashed with the Raven Bar style".

[BIG smile]

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:41 pm

Still, if we start getting "scared" about this kind of stuff, every attempt of making new theories should be suppressed, and I don't think this would be a good thing

Scared? You're not understanding. We're tired. Scared has absolutely nothing to do with it at all.

Like I said, anyone wanting to give this a shot, go for it, but once it leaves the rails, it will be locked.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:52 pm

Heck, if we were scared, we would've shut this site down years ago!

theinterchange · Post by **theinterchange** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:55 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:Heck, if we were scared, we would've shut this site down years ago!

nope.. we're not scared.

Randy

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:08 pm

Like I said in another thread.....there's the 'deer in the headlights look' that happens so often around here.

Regards! Michaelson

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:17 pm

Michaelson wrote:
Still, if we start getting "scared" about this kind of stuff, every attempt of making new theories should be suppressed, and I don't think this would be a good thing
Scared? You're not understanding. We're tired. Scared has absolutely nothing to do with it at all.

Like I said, anyone wanting to give this a shot, go for it, but once it leaves the rails, it will be locked.

Regards! Michaelson

I said "scared", not scared. Note the " "

You've got to forgive me, it's quite a challenge sometimes trying to explain things in a language that does not belong to you, and that's why sometimes I mistranslate things or say something that can be misunderstood. I should have said "worried".

Well then... I hope someone pops in and helps me. So much talking, and still I don't know anything about what I asked

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:36 pm

Restless Dreamer,

I understand your frustration in there being so much information spread out over the board, but I have to agree with Michaelson and Bink. I still feel new around here and I've been a member for almost a year. I've been an Indy fan since Raiders and whereas when I joined COW I had a vague idea the hats in each of the films were different I was really surprised to learn how the hats vary through any given movie. That being said I learned about the variations by digging in and doing a lot of reading. It took time to do so, but I also learned how opinions will vary so much about a given hat in a given scene.

There are no absolute dimensions to give about any of the hats in any of the scenes of any of the movies. As soon as someone types, "the X hat in X scene has X dimensions" there will be three people saying that same hat is Y or Z. I'm only repeating what's already been said, but there's too much opinion involved in the nuances scene to scene to make any kind of meaningful list of characteristics.

Frankly, I couldn't tell you a Raven Bar from an Idol Grab from a Well of Souls. To me, the only distinctive ROLA hat is the SOC hat. I bet cash money someone will quote this with some reasons how they are different. And then someone else will quote those explanations with other reasons why they are the same or different.

Again, as Michaelson said (boy, it's like he's a knower of things), there were, and are, debates about the hats and jackets that have raged for years that continue to this day. Heck, there isn't 100% agreement on what the pocket flaps on the pants look like! A comprehensive list isn't possible. My best piece of advise is to use the search function for each scene hat you are interested in learning about and then just read. More times than not I've been facinated by how a thread evolved and seeing the process has been more enriching than getting to the final product.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

theinterchange · Post by **theinterchange** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:37 pm

I got your meaning. I've been waiting to use that little photo and this seemed like a good opportunity.

Randy

maboot38 · Post by **maboot38** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:44 pm

Indiana Jeff wrote:I bet cash money someone will quote this with some reasons how they are different. And then someone else will quote those explanations with other reasons why they are the same or different.

It's actually quite simple, you see. The idol grab hat is obviously the same hat as the Bantu Wind hat because....oh nevermind!

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:54 pm

Ok, I've taken the liberty of making the list myself. Hope this helps.

Raiders:

Kipu Falls/Outside Temple: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

Inside Temple: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

Idol Grab: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

Plane Scene: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

Ravenbar: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

Streets of Cairo: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

Well of Souls: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

German Mechanic Fight: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

Truck Chase: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

Bantu Wind: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

Washington: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

I'm working on a Temple of Doom one, but I'm finding it rather difficult. Hopefully this will tide you guys over.

Dave

Ranger36 · Post by **Ranger36** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:55 pm

Now that made me laugh out loud!

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:59 pm

Then mission accomplished.

Dave

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:26 pm

Plane Scene: Indy wears a brown, tall, wide brim fedora

Uh oh. We already have a problem....

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:50 pm

And it's not me this time! HA!

theinterchange · Post by **theinterchange** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:06 pm

I'm going on record to say I think the travel hat was purple! Superfly Indy

Randy

Ranger36 · Post by **Ranger36** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:07 pm

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:11 pm

Ok, this is totaly unofficial and purely how I see it, but it might give you something to think about. Again, this is pure subjective and by no means definitive.

To me it appears that the hats used at all the Elstree shoots have more taper to them as the other hats.
The waterfalls hat looks to be the most squareish of them all, which could be (in my eyes) atributed to the center dent being so high in the back. To me it also appears to have les of the brim warp associated with the turn.
The SOC hat bulges above the ribbon and has a dip above the right eye, at least to me it seems it has. It also seems to have a verry relaxed brimbreak.
The flying wing hat looks to me as it is the exact same hat as the SOC.
The seaplane hat and the washington hat appear to be grey in my eyes, and the ribbon could be anywhere between black, dark grey and a brownish colour for as far as I can tell, so I think it's probably black as that can take on the most hues I think.

That's all I can come up with without spending some weeks solely looking at screengrabs of the hats and vieuwing raiders non-stop. considdering it's all pretty subjective it's not worth a darn realy, but let's see if you yourself can come up with something better when checking out if I'm right

Regards, Geert

Ranger36 · Post by **Ranger36** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:33 pm

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:34 pm

Well, one thing is certain, Speilberg himself has said the travel hat was gray.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:02 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:Well, one thing is certain, Speilberg himself has said the travel hat was gray.

I know, but some maintain it was something else. Burma has been sugested recently

Regards, Geert

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:04 pm

And so it begins!

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:15 pm

Hey, I did say it was subjective, Right?

Regards, Geert

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:27 am

well, thanks for your help, gwyddion.

it's a good start

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:18 am

gwyddion wrote:Ok, this is totaly unofficial and purely how I see it, but it might give you something to think about. Again, this is pure subjective and by no means definitive.

To me it appears that the hats used at all the Elstree shoots have more taper to them as the other hats.
The waterfalls hat looks to be the most squareish of them all, which could be (in my eyes) atributed to the center dent being so high in the back. To me it also appears to have les of the brim warp associated with the turn.
The SOC hat bulges above the ribbon and has a dip above the right eye, at least to me it seems it has. It also seems to have a verry relaxed brimbreak.
The flying wing hat looks to me as it is the exact same hat as the SOC.
The seaplane hat and the washington hat appear to be grey in my eyes, and the ribbon could be anywhere between black, dark grey and a brownish colour for as far as I can tell, so I think it's probably black as that can take on the most hues I think.

That's all I can come up with without spending some weeks solely looking at screengrabs of the hats and vieuwing raiders non-stop. considdering it's all pretty subjective it's not worth a darn realy, but let's see if you yourself can come up with something better when checking out if I'm right

Regards, Geert

FINALLY, someone who isn't tired and offers a little bone of help. I can see why you all have reservations and will not question your motives, you are being up front and honest about your thoughts, but personally I like debate, that is what makes a forum, and yes unfortunately sometimes some begin throwing rocks and it is a headache, but that goes with the format and territory, I know that's easy for me to say. Ok, for some reason I don't think I'm helping here, or some might perceive it that way, so

I can see your frustration, hope you'll see mine.

I will add "pound for pound" Michaelson and Bink are still probably the two most helpful guys on the forum. Ok, I'll go find something else to do.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:36 am

I don't think the issue is a fear of future debate. It's just that specific scene hat characteristics have already been debated. Trying to create one thread with all the scenes from all the movies would be redundant and make the thread so difficult to read I don't think it would serve the purpose Restless Dreamer is hoping for.

For example, the first post is about the SOC hat. Several people respond to that, but then someone brings up the LC Pier hat and responses come in. Then someone comments on the SOC hat needing to lengthen their post with quotes to put their comments in context. Then a TOD hat, cockpit or bridge, gets mentioned; back to LC, but this time the chalice room; then SOC; then Raven Bar; back to TOD; then Well of Souls; Young Indy Hat Pre-War (why not); back to LC Pier, etc.

To say nothing of the inevitable comments of "this vendor makes the best X scene hat" which would lead to another mix and match of posts debating vendors in the context of the hat characteristics.

The thread would be so muddled it would be unreadable and people would still be best served using the search function for a specific scene hat and read all they can about that, then move on to another scene. Rinse and repeat.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:47 am

Indiana Jeff wrote:The thread would be so muddled it would be unreadable and people would still be best served using the search function for a specific scene hat and read all they can about that, then move on to another scene. Rinse and repeat.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

I don't know why most people hate the search function. I find it quite useful. Just about any question can be answered by using a search.

Dave

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:50 am

Indiana Jeff wrote:I don't think the issue is a fear of future debate. It's just that specific scene hat characteristics have already been debated. Trying to create one thread with all the scenes from all the movies would be redundant and make the thread so difficult to read I don't think it would serve the purpose Restless Dreamer is hoping for.

For example, the first post is about the SOC hat. Several people respond to that, but then someone brings up the LC Pier hat and responses come in. Then someone comments on the SOC hat needing to lengthen their post with quotes to put their comments in context. Then a TOD hat, cockpit or bridge, gets mentioned; back to LC, but this time the chalice room; then SOC; then Raven Bar; back to TOD; then Well of Souls; Young Indy Hat Pre-War (why not); back to LC Pier, etc.

To say nothing of the inevitable comments of "this vendor makes the best X scene hat" which would lead to another mix and match of posts debating vendors in the context of the hat characteristics.

The thread would be so muddled it would be unreadable and people would still be best served using the search function for a specific scene hat and read all they can about that, then move on to another scene. Rinse and repeat.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Yes, but at least it would be in one thread, true they get sidelined all the time, but that's a part of organic discussion. I could argue every thread is muddled I suppose.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:55 am

But this has been discussed numerous times in the short time I've been here. I can't imagine how many times it has been discussed in the sites long life. A simple use of the search function will remedy the problem. If someone wants to collect all the information in the various threads, that might be an idea. I don't mind talking about this stuff. Thats why I'm here; I love it. But I understand why this task would not be wanted or taken upon.

Dave

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:29 pm

To the author of a new thread: stay cool and dont lose it if no one answers cos you'll only get negative responses. Which is exactly what we have here. I'm happy to debate it cos I joined recently and missed out on the last threads.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:05 am

Snapbrim76 wrote:To the author of a new thread: stay cool and dont lose it if no one answers cos you'll only get negative responses. Which is exactly what we have here. I'm happy to debate it cos I joined recently and missed out on the last threads.

Hey, not only negative responses: I did actually try to help him out a bit

Not sure if I was any help though, as I am not a hat expert

Regards, Geert

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:05 pm

gwyddion wrote:
Snapbrim76 wrote:To the author of a new thread: stay cool and dont lose it if no one answers cos you'll only get negative responses. Which is exactly what we have here. I'm happy to debate it cos I joined recently and missed out on the last threads.
Hey, not only negative responses: I did actually try to help him out a bit Not sure if I was any help though, as I am not a hat expert

Regards, Geert

Yes, you've been very helpful, (and so have a few others) I was just referring to the way Restless Dreamer seemed so restless at the start of this thread.

Restless Dreamer · Post by **Restless Dreamer** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:56 am

I'm trying again.

Some weeks ago, me and other users had a nice and civil conversation about the possibility of making a comprehensive list explaining by words and images the various differences beetween Indy hat styles, in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43275

Everyone keeps hearing about SOC, Venice Pier, Cockpit Plane, but how often a new member opens a topic and asks: "what does SOC mean?". Then someone arrives and say "use the search function".

The basic idea of this thread is to help these users in their digging

we already have a Topic which explains more or less what are the differences between the various movie styles: the goal is to have one explaining the differences between the various scenes styles. A hard task, indeed, but Jason offered to accomplish this quest. I don't know if he is still interested, so I'm asking if somebody wants to try and provide is own personal and unofficial list - this meaning that no list will be definitive and unarguable, because we all know that, while we all agree with certain things, some disagree about minor nuances (example: "the Venice pier had a 0,123° taper"; "no way, it was a trick of the light"; "I'm telling you it was tapered"; "Swales is my uncle, he is righ here and he agrees with me"; "Ok, locking down the thread, guys").