A visit to HJ

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:56 pm

I just visited Swain Adeney Brigg to check out the Poet, up close and personal. I've been before but since joining COW I had to go back.

I must admit the felt was a lovely colour and looked quite nice. However, the ribbon wasn't dark like in the films and the brim was very wide. I think it's the hat before any of the Raiders alterations. The ribbon looked wide as well which, as you might know, was replaced to make the hat appear taller. The brim was also tapered for the film and I'm pretty sure the Poet wasn't.

They only had small and large sizes in stock, I was informed there's a waiting list for medium sizes.

Obviously I can't tell from the shop how durable they are but it did look quite nice but without my size in stock I couldn't see it on. I'm pretty sure it's not the same block as the fedora in the film. I do get the impression that the shop aren't in the slightest bit interested in Indy. The shop mainly supplies upper class equestrian clothing to people like the royal family - I did feel a bit out of place.

I did once (in 2001 *edit* for clarity) have the pleasure of meeting Richard Swales (who designed the original fedora) but he left SAB several years ago. He was very nice and was dressed a bit like Walter Donovan in his homburg. He was very welcoming and not in the least bit condiscending.

Has anyone bought a Poet, and if so, how satisfied are you?

Tremolo · Post by **Tremolo** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:51 pm

Sounds a like good visit to me, well except that they didn´t have any Poets in your size.

However, the ribbon wasn't dark like in the films and the brim was very wide. I think it's the hat before any of the Raiders alterations. The ribbon looked wide as well

Sounds very interesting, would you say it looked like the Young Indy hat here
http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... s/yi26.jpg ?

I thought that they only had the Indy Poet in stock that they show on their website, but if they had the normal YIJ Poet in stock it would be quite nice to know.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:22 pm

WOW that is a great post ! And Swales is still alive !? How cool that you got to meet him too !

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:56 pm

It's not clear from my post but I met Mr Swales in about 2001 when he still worked at SAB. I haven't seem him since. I have no idea if he's still alive. At the time I didn't know he was "the man" but he was a pleasure to talk to.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:21 pm

I believe Swales has since left the building, so to speak.

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:28 pm

Oh sad to hear. So glad I met him!

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:37 am

Snapbrim76 wrote:Oh sad to hear. So glad I met him!

GOTCHA ! i thought you just went there and Met Swales !

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:11 pm

No you didn't get me. I met Richard Swales the FIRST time i went to SAB back in 2001. Read the above posts again!

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:02 pm

If my source was reliable (ex-HJ employee) Swales is dead.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:12 pm

It's my understanding that DL designed the hat and Swales did the labor. Not to take anything from him but after seeing a couple of interviews i have no doubt she is the creative mind behind the hat ( and the whole outfit).

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:07 pm

If my source was reliable (ex-HJ employee) Swales is dead.

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:30 am

BendingOak wrote:It's my understanding that DL designed the hat and Swales did the labor. Not to take anything from him but after seeing a couple of interviews i have no doubt she is the creative mind behind the hat ( and the whole outfit).

Yes you're right. She even distressed the jacket by hand with a knife. Do you know whether or not the tapered brim was RS's innovation?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:03 am

I believe your talking about the dimensional cut brim. Thats a hard one to confirm. I would put my money on her because she had such a clear idea of what she wanted for Ford and it was important to her to make sure the brim didn't cover his eye's. I really think she worked out every little detail.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:04 am

Snapbrim76 wrote:
BendingOak wrote:It's my understanding that DL designed the hat and Swales did the labor. Not to take anything from him but after seeing a couple of interviews i have no doubt she is the creative mind behind the hat ( and the whole outfit).
Yes you're right. She even distressed the jacket by hand with a knife. Do you know whether or not the tapered brim was RS's innovation?

First I think we need to know what you mean by "tapered brim". Is it the flanging at the back, the dimensional cut, the uneven warping of the sides of the brim resulting from turning the hat or something else? We have a specific terminology here and I for one have trouble figuring out what it is you are referring to

, wich makes me curious ofcourse

Regards, Geert

Post by **Mike** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:28 am

As for the dimensional cut, the story has always been that Deb wanted it cut back to show the eyes, etc. but Swales did the cut right on the spot for her. According to Swales, each one was done by hand with scissors thus some came out chunky (when ordered through SAB) and no 2 ever quite the same as he just eyeballed them.

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:54 pm

yes i meant dimensional cut - terminology not my strong suit... yet! With a little help from COW, I'll get there in the end!

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:57 pm

Mike wrote:As for the dimensional cut, the story has always been that Deb wanted it cut back to show the eyes, etc. but Swales did the cut right on the spot for her. According to Swales, each one was done by hand with scissors thus some came out chunky (when ordered through SAB) and no 2 ever quite the same as he just eyeballed them.

thats my understanding as well. It really does seem that she is the creative mind behind the hat.

ANJALI · Post by **ANJALI** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:47 pm

Erri wrote:If my source was reliable (ex-HJ employee) Swales is dead.

???? I'd like to have more information about that !
That's strange because since the beginning, that Man is THE MAN !
and nobody has really search about him...
The felt, the body...all these informations = R Swales !

I hope he's still alive !

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:13 pm

Well, since the retirement he stopped being a public figure so it wouldn't suprise me if no one on COW would have heard about it. Afterall I doubt anyone knew him personally around here. I was told this last year from a former Herbert Johnson employee in a little email exchange we had.
That's all I can say. I have no means of checking this information, I don't even live in the UK... usually. Somebody in London could go up (or phone up) SAB shop and ask about him... some older employee must know.

ANJALI · Post by **ANJALI** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:38 pm

It could be a "strategy" to let this man in "peace".
It's no difficult to imagine how he was disturbed at the end by fans...asking always about Indy fedoras.
he wanted to be quite but...I repeat : it's strange that nobody (except you) was looking about him !
Perhaps, he has left HJ with the body !
Incredible that at HJ, there are not able to give us an exact "replica" (correct body and correct felt !) since the time !
??? I'm asking plenty of question about that Erry !
(Personnaly, I think the Christy is not far...a better felt (thicker !) and it's good !)
You find R Swales and you find the "Graal"

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:04 pm

ANJALI wrote:It could be a "strategy" to let this man in "peace".
It's no difficult to imagine how he was disturbed at the end by fans...asking always about Indy fedoras.
he wanted to be quite but...I repeat : it's strange that nobody (except you) was looking about him !
Perhaps, he has left HJ with the body !
Incredible that at HJ, there are not able to give us an exact "replica" (correct body and correct felt !) since the time !
??? I'm asking plenty of question about that Erry !
(Personnaly, I think the Christy is not far...a better felt (thicker !) and it's good !)
You find R Swales and you find the "Graal"

The thing is Christys current felt is the correct thickness for a Raiders LC and TOD hat ! it seems to be the same thickness as the movie hats;) if you go with thicker felt you get a hat that doesn't look "quite right" anymore. I have to agree on the strategy part! I heard stories of him not liking all the calls that much!

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:11 pm

I really think if he retired and wanted to be left alone he wouldn't be hounded. I don't think he's in hiding.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:17 pm

BendingOak wrote:I really think if he retired and wanted to be left alone he wouldn't be hounded. I don't think he's in hiding.

You could also be quite right, but It might have been an reaction to multiple questions about Swales. But it also could be true ! Maybe we'll never find out

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:22 pm

If Fords not in hiding why would someone like Swales? Lets put a little common sense out there.

I myself if had the chance to talk with him I would but much rather talk with DL. As after that recent interview I saw in that Fan DVD movie. She is the creative mind behind the Raiders hat.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:23 pm

Well I guess a little phonecall could clear all doubts. Perhaps he's just retired and surely he's not checking COW to say otherwise. How old is he supposed to be now anyway? And how can HE help us? I mean no one has asked him anything in all these years he was working there and do you want to annoy him now that he's retired?

There IS a Richard Swales in London but who would dare to phone up and say "er... sorry sir, are you THE Richard Swales who worked for Herbert-Johnson? Ah yes, I'm phoning up because there are rumors that you were dead"

I might do that actually

...but it's always a shame to hear a Brit annoyed over the phone

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:21 pm

Erri wrote:Well I guess a little phonecall could clear all doubts. Perhaps he's just retired and surely he's not checking COW to say otherwise. How old is he supposed to be now anyway? And how can HE help us? I mean no one has asked him anything in all these years he was working there and do you want to annoy him now that he's retired?

There IS a Richard Swales in London but who would dare to phone up and say "er... sorry sir, are you THE Richard Swales who worked for Herbert-Johnson? Ah yes, I'm phoning up because there are rumors that you were dead"
I might do that actually

...but it's always a shame to hear a Brit annoyed over the phone

I agree, there is no reason to bug the guy if he is still alive. What does the people say who took over the Biz?

CairoIndy · Post by **CairoIndy** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:36 pm

BendingOak wrote:What does the people say who took over the Biz?

"Indiana who?"

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:01 pm

CairoIndy wrote:
BendingOak wrote:What does the people say who took over the Biz?
"Indiana who?"

No about Swales.

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:24 pm

Ok guys I'll go into the shop and politely ask. I'll probably be around that way tomorrow. I'll be nice!

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:46 pm

Just ask if a certain Richard Swales still works there, say you remember him from years ago working there. They'll probably tell you. Curious to know too

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:11 pm

Here's something from May 10, 2008 from the London Times:

May 10, 2008

Dr Indiana Jones, where did you get that hat?
Legend has it that Spielberg and Ford personally approached the London hat specialists Herbert Johnson to make Jones’s famous fedora. Richard Swales, now retired, was the man given the responsibility. “He adapted it from a classic outdoor rain hat called a Poet,” explains Tom Williams, the store’s current manager.

“They ordered stacks of them, as they needed them in various states of conditions,” says Williams.

“The hat was used for the first three films, and has been a trademark item for us. We get e-mails from all over the world requesting them – some people even want one with a nick out of the brim, like Jones’s after he dodges a bullet in the second movie. We supply bullwhips as well, and fans come to the shop in their leather jackets to have their photo taken

So, as of last year just before CS was released, he was still alive. Nothing found from that date forward.

Regard! Michaelson

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:21 pm

Michaelson wrote:Here's something from May 10, 2008 from the London Times:

May 10, 2008

Dr Indiana Jones, where did you get that hat?
Legend has it that Spielberg and Ford personally approached the London hat specialists Herbert Johnson to make Jones’s famous fedora. Richard Swales, now retired, was the man given the responsibility. “He adapted it from a classic outdoor rain hat called a Poet,” explains Tom Williams, the store’s current manager.

“They ordered stacks of them, as they needed them in various states of conditions,” says Williams.

“The hat was used for the first three films, and has been a trademark item for us. We get e-mails from all over the world requesting them – some people even want one with a nick out of the brim, like Jones’s after he dodges a bullet in the second movie. We supply bullwhips as well, and fans come to the shop in their leather jackets to have their photo taken
So, as of last year just before CS was released, he was still alive. Nothing found from that date forward.

Regard! Michaelson

Wait a minute bullit dodged ??nick out of the brim??? Did I miss that?? Michaelson it doesn't really say if he was alive or not, just that he is retired...?

EDIT sorry really late here !

So yes there might be a chance he's still alive. But swales didn't like to be bothered by fans with questions regarding the hat back in the day. So I'm guessing he would not now either.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:36 pm

BendingOak wrote:It's my understanding that DL designed the hat and Swales did the labor. Not to take anything from him but after seeing a couple of interviews i have no doubt she is the creative mind behind the hat ( and the whole outfit).

I agree with that.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:40 pm

What bullet nick????? Just proves how little they know.

ANJALI · Post by **ANJALI** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:29 am

I don't want to disturb Mr swales but...we have so many interviews of people around him

(Deborah Noodelman by example...) and nothing from him

, that, if he is always alive, to have only once, seriously, an interview of this man will be a good thing.
Just my opinion...

ANJALI

ANJALI · Post by **ANJALI** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:50 am

Dutch_jones wrote:The thing is Christys current felt is the correct thickness for a Raiders LC and TOD hat ! it seems to be the same thickness as the movie hats;) if you go with thicker felt you get a hat that doesn't look "quite right" anymore. I have to agree on the strategy part! I heard stories of him not liking all the calls that much!

Ok for the first movie ...not for the second and the third !
The hat is different because the felt is different (the sizes for the brim et the body also)!

I have 3 hats from HJ bought at the beginning of the eighties, I can easily compare !
The felt corresponding for my hats is the same than which used in the second and the third.
More dense, a little bit thicker but which is very important is the density !
For me, the quality of the felt was better for the second (end of the movie)and the third but the hat was not so "floppy" than in the first movie.

ANJALI

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:42 am

ANJALI wrote:I don't want to disturb Mr swales but...we have so many interviews of people around him (Deborah Noodelman by example...) and nothing from him

That is also very true. I would love to interview him but I'm not sure he would like to be interviewed at all, that's the only thing that keeps me from doing it (as well as the lack of information about his whereabouts). Should I try phone up this Mr. R Swales in Peckham?

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:37 am

I don't think that's a good idea - there are 7.3 million people who live in London (not including migrant workers, so prob closer to 10 million) so I think it's very likely that there may be more than one R Swales. Besides, I don't want to sound rude here but I wouldn't have thought that a well-to-do (possibly wealthy), respectable hat maker would retire to Peckham. Sorry to anyone who might live in Peckham but I would have expected him to more likely live outside the capital in a more green and easy going place.

Besides, who says he actually lives IN London? All down St James Street, most of the people working in the shops there (and from personal experience most of the people who work in Central London) live outside London in the 'Home Counties'. Many people commute a long way to London - I know people who take the train in from over 100 miles from London. So RS could live almost anywhere within 150 miles from London. And if he really was playing the hiding game, he's hardly likely to still be in the phone directory.

DeWayne · Post by **DeWayne** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:11 am

If I remember right, he retired just as the Indy DVD's were released. He is actually mentioned by name in the special features. Probably more than a coincidence that he chose it was the right time to retire.

I did speak with him on the phone when I ordered my HJ in 1998. I must have caught him in a good mood as he couldn't have been more pleasant. He told me he was going to work on my hat and have it out to me right away. He wasn't kidding because it showed up about a week later (and I'm in Cali).

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:07 am

one can't say half a thing without receiving a load of PMs. What's all the excitement about?

I was kidding before but now I'm actually considering tracking him down, how about that?

I did speak with him on the phone when I ordered my HJ in 1998. I must have caught him in a good mood as he couldn't have been more pleasant.

As with everyone, it all depends the way you speak to people. I've never been misthreated by the people I was talking with... even in those case (like Swales) where the interlocutor was known to be snobbish or harsh with fans/customers.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:58 am

I can see why he'd want to hide from us. Anyone think he may have tried to fake his death as a way to get away from us?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:58 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:I can see why he'd want to hide from us. Anyone think he may have tried to fake his death as a way to get away from us?

So, does that mean ELVIS might still be alive. Sorry couldn't help myself.
but Indy fans can't be as bad as Elvis fans.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:20 pm

Are you so sure?

That's Elvis Trooper, by the way, who used to pop up around here on occasion.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:30 pm

I knew it!

What a perfect disguise

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:55 pm

I SO needed that ! Darn Brilliance

CairoIndy · Post by **CairoIndy** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:22 pm

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:43 pm

What the.........

and I'm am outa here.

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:57 pm

Nice to know we haven't gone off topic

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:10 pm

Did you go in the shop in the end?

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:47 am

Sorry guys, I was in town, but I could hardly move for the crowds attending the 'Pride London' celebration. The streets were filled with revellers and the traffic was stationary and I needed to get to work. Sadly SAB don't open on Sundays so the next opportunity I'll get will be Monday. Sorry for the delay!