Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
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Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
I thought this deserved a thread of its own, although I have mentioned much of it in an off topic way on other threads.
Way back when I first tackled the job of making my own Raider block, it was due to all of the hats back then looking wrong. Most just had too much taper when compared to the Raiders film. And, I had already spent right at 7500 bucks buying various brands in 3's, trying to find one that looked more like the film. But there was always something that just did not look right to me at the time with these other hats. The best was the Optimo Indy, but that early felt would taper too easily, as I wear my hats in the elements, and always have. But at least their block shape was the closest for me, and everyone who bought one recalls the fine workmanship in those Optimos. The finest hat most of us had ever seen, other than vintage.
My early attempts at making a Raiders block were such an improvement to me over everyone else that I was instantly pleased, and even offered free reblocks with this block with any brand of hat, IF you wore my size. At least the hat did not have that taper that most Indy fedoras had at the time. And most were pleased, as me, because they had suffered the inaccuracies over the years along with me with the other brands.
As time passed, I would watch the film with hat in hand and started to see some slight differences, and that got me started tweaking the block. I would tweak it, reblock a hat on the new block and then watch the film again. I did this alot. And it was done over a few years. Slight modifications, nothing ever major.
At the time, I really thought the block had to be a perfect match to the film block, in order to turn out a good looking Indy fedora. And, I felt this same way until only recently. Today, I no longer hold that view, because I have seen several different blocks that will yield that same Raiders look. Now granted, these diverse blocks are very similiar in looks, with the major differences being the degree of taper used, and the radius that is used. If you have too much, you lose the Raiders look. If the hat is too straight, you get a caricature of the hat. But there is a degree of variation in this taper and radius angle that all will work and give good results. A max of 3/16ths of taper on the sides is all you can use, IMO. Or, you can have the sides straight up to a certain point, and then start a gentle radius that moves up to the dome. Either way will give you a good looking Raider fedora. The end result is hard to distinguish, one from the other. And of course, the trouble with many of the old offerings was that the hats just had too much taper built in to start with.
My CS block is a straighter block on the sides than my old ones. In fact, there is no taper on the sides of the CS block at all. And if you make a Raiders fedora using this block, this is what you get.
I also believe some of us have the perception that this is what the Raiders fedora should look like, with its squareness of the crown shape. But, to me, today, it is a caricature. My opinon only.
Even the CS block if creased to the Raider specs looks good from the side.
But seen from slightly above, front shot, I can see how the crown is too square, because I don't see any Raider fedoras in the film that looked as square from this view.
Sorry for the fuzzy photo, but it's all I had of this hat.
To me, this is just a bit off, but even this CS block yields a decent Raiders fedora, although it is caricatured, but some like the caricature.
The only hat that looks even close to being this square in the film is this one.
But even this hat was not as square as the CS Raiders posted above.
Then there is Terry's hat, and it looks almost square, but not really.
So, I feel that there was a little taper in the Raiders fedora, not much, but some. That taper in some scenes is more, with much of this being the way the hat was creased, with the back really low, as inside the temple scenes. As the hat was exposed to the wear and heat, it bulged, and those bulges negated any taper that you would have seen, if the hat has not bulged out. It also probably lost some crown height as well, as some hats do appear shorter than others.
Along with the shrinkage that HAS to happen with rabbit in the heat, the back will morph into a hat with a lowered back, if you had creased the hat down low in back. This happens with my own hats with wear. So, if you popped it out open crown, if it started out the same height and radius on the front and back, the back would now appear lower, with a different raidius. This is natural and what felt does. And no doubt the SOC hat had this feature, as well as the other well worn, hard to replicate hats in the film. The distressed hats. This changes the look of the hat of course, and makes it more accurate to those particular scenes. We are looking at hats in the film that shrink and morph, and we see newer ones too. This has to be considered in a big way when replicating the block and look. And this is the reason LLS's block works so well, and can present those looks with ease. But with that said, I have always worked from film stills. And when I finally studied these next two pics of Terry's hat, I saw that the hat with the crown popped up, appeared to be completely symetrical, front and back, and this is one thing that move me back to the symetrical blockshape. Peruse these.
So armed with this new "look" on my part, and me not wanting to use the same blocks I made a new block, again, my own work. It's my ego, nothing more. And apparently, Terry's hat had not morphed yet, as if you recall, his hat had shallow creases in the top from what we can see from the behind the scenes footage.
So, with my fairly new understanding that several blockshapes would make a good Raiders fedora, and not knowing exactly how they finessed the block to lend that look, I used again what I could see from studying the film. I added taper, but nothing like you see on HJs and some Christys. And certainly not the kind you see on Stetson Temples. I studied a wide variety of vintage blocks, all with some taper added, and all without the domey domes that were used for tradtionally c dents, telescopes and teardrops. But more along the lines of what you see with a front to back center top crease, like the homburg that utilized the Indy type crease on top. Face it, domes or dome shapes were created for particular final looks of the hat. Each had its purpose. And so many modern fedoras came with a domey dome, while the Raiders fedora was not this sort at all. But remember, the Indy type top crease was common in English hats, while the c dents and teardrops were common in the USA. I recall an old pic of an English crowd from the 30's and most of the hats had the Indy crease. If you had a pic of the same era from the USA, you would have seen mostly tear drops and c dents.
My quest for the perfect Raiders block has come to an end. And not because I think I have found the perfect block. It is just that with my new epiphany, I realize that several blocks will make very accurate Raider fedoras, and unless I happen to get a pristine real Raiders fedora in my hands, prior to shrinkage, I am simply wasting my time. I no longer feel there is a magic involved with the blockshape, just that it has to have certain features that many vintage blocks already have. Fedora
Way back when I first tackled the job of making my own Raider block, it was due to all of the hats back then looking wrong. Most just had too much taper when compared to the Raiders film. And, I had already spent right at 7500 bucks buying various brands in 3's, trying to find one that looked more like the film. But there was always something that just did not look right to me at the time with these other hats. The best was the Optimo Indy, but that early felt would taper too easily, as I wear my hats in the elements, and always have. But at least their block shape was the closest for me, and everyone who bought one recalls the fine workmanship in those Optimos. The finest hat most of us had ever seen, other than vintage.
My early attempts at making a Raiders block were such an improvement to me over everyone else that I was instantly pleased, and even offered free reblocks with this block with any brand of hat, IF you wore my size. At least the hat did not have that taper that most Indy fedoras had at the time. And most were pleased, as me, because they had suffered the inaccuracies over the years along with me with the other brands.
As time passed, I would watch the film with hat in hand and started to see some slight differences, and that got me started tweaking the block. I would tweak it, reblock a hat on the new block and then watch the film again. I did this alot. And it was done over a few years. Slight modifications, nothing ever major.
At the time, I really thought the block had to be a perfect match to the film block, in order to turn out a good looking Indy fedora. And, I felt this same way until only recently. Today, I no longer hold that view, because I have seen several different blocks that will yield that same Raiders look. Now granted, these diverse blocks are very similiar in looks, with the major differences being the degree of taper used, and the radius that is used. If you have too much, you lose the Raiders look. If the hat is too straight, you get a caricature of the hat. But there is a degree of variation in this taper and radius angle that all will work and give good results. A max of 3/16ths of taper on the sides is all you can use, IMO. Or, you can have the sides straight up to a certain point, and then start a gentle radius that moves up to the dome. Either way will give you a good looking Raider fedora. The end result is hard to distinguish, one from the other. And of course, the trouble with many of the old offerings was that the hats just had too much taper built in to start with.
My CS block is a straighter block on the sides than my old ones. In fact, there is no taper on the sides of the CS block at all. And if you make a Raiders fedora using this block, this is what you get.
I also believe some of us have the perception that this is what the Raiders fedora should look like, with its squareness of the crown shape. But, to me, today, it is a caricature. My opinon only.
Even the CS block if creased to the Raider specs looks good from the side.
But seen from slightly above, front shot, I can see how the crown is too square, because I don't see any Raider fedoras in the film that looked as square from this view.
Sorry for the fuzzy photo, but it's all I had of this hat.
To me, this is just a bit off, but even this CS block yields a decent Raiders fedora, although it is caricatured, but some like the caricature.
The only hat that looks even close to being this square in the film is this one.
But even this hat was not as square as the CS Raiders posted above.
Then there is Terry's hat, and it looks almost square, but not really.
So, I feel that there was a little taper in the Raiders fedora, not much, but some. That taper in some scenes is more, with much of this being the way the hat was creased, with the back really low, as inside the temple scenes. As the hat was exposed to the wear and heat, it bulged, and those bulges negated any taper that you would have seen, if the hat has not bulged out. It also probably lost some crown height as well, as some hats do appear shorter than others.
Along with the shrinkage that HAS to happen with rabbit in the heat, the back will morph into a hat with a lowered back, if you had creased the hat down low in back. This happens with my own hats with wear. So, if you popped it out open crown, if it started out the same height and radius on the front and back, the back would now appear lower, with a different raidius. This is natural and what felt does. And no doubt the SOC hat had this feature, as well as the other well worn, hard to replicate hats in the film. The distressed hats. This changes the look of the hat of course, and makes it more accurate to those particular scenes. We are looking at hats in the film that shrink and morph, and we see newer ones too. This has to be considered in a big way when replicating the block and look. And this is the reason LLS's block works so well, and can present those looks with ease. But with that said, I have always worked from film stills. And when I finally studied these next two pics of Terry's hat, I saw that the hat with the crown popped up, appeared to be completely symetrical, front and back, and this is one thing that move me back to the symetrical blockshape. Peruse these.
So armed with this new "look" on my part, and me not wanting to use the same blocks I made a new block, again, my own work. It's my ego, nothing more. And apparently, Terry's hat had not morphed yet, as if you recall, his hat had shallow creases in the top from what we can see from the behind the scenes footage.
So, with my fairly new understanding that several blockshapes would make a good Raiders fedora, and not knowing exactly how they finessed the block to lend that look, I used again what I could see from studying the film. I added taper, but nothing like you see on HJs and some Christys. And certainly not the kind you see on Stetson Temples. I studied a wide variety of vintage blocks, all with some taper added, and all without the domey domes that were used for tradtionally c dents, telescopes and teardrops. But more along the lines of what you see with a front to back center top crease, like the homburg that utilized the Indy type crease on top. Face it, domes or dome shapes were created for particular final looks of the hat. Each had its purpose. And so many modern fedoras came with a domey dome, while the Raiders fedora was not this sort at all. But remember, the Indy type top crease was common in English hats, while the c dents and teardrops were common in the USA. I recall an old pic of an English crowd from the 30's and most of the hats had the Indy crease. If you had a pic of the same era from the USA, you would have seen mostly tear drops and c dents.
My quest for the perfect Raiders block has come to an end. And not because I think I have found the perfect block. It is just that with my new epiphany, I realize that several blocks will make very accurate Raider fedoras, and unless I happen to get a pristine real Raiders fedora in my hands, prior to shrinkage, I am simply wasting my time. I no longer feel there is a magic involved with the blockshape, just that it has to have certain features that many vintage blocks already have. Fedora
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Very interesting and fun read, Steve. I'm glad your quest for THE Raiders block has come to an end, though I'm sad to hear that it has lost its magic. Though many vintage blocks make a good Raiders hat, yours makes a GREAT Raiders hat and the closest there is (though I must admit, I think you and John are tied for first place). And you both reached that place with different blocks. Different styles is all. Thank you, Steve, for all the hard work you've put into this block.
Dave
Dave
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Great read. Honestly, I feel that you could write an autobiography of your quest for a Raiders hat. I'm sure that it would be a great read among Indy fans, gear heads, fedora wearers, and even film historians. Always looking forward to reading your posts.
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Oh, the hat will always have its magic, mainly because of the turned hat and the warped brim. It makes the hat look different than a regular fedora. Just has a certain quality to it that you don't see much.though I'm sad to hear that it has lost its magic.
But I reckon a guy can only chase a block just for so long. But, it has been great fun. I enjoyed every single minute of it. For others, keep the quest going. Because the trip itself is the fun, and not so much the destination. When you try every block shape there is, and you still see something different on the screen, the difference exists only in the mind. In perception. It took me many hours of trying this and that, wearing out a sander in the process, and in the end it is kinda disapointing that there indeed was nothing magical about that blockshape. Sure, it has to fall within certain parameters, but that's all it is
As we all know, much of that look is from the sort of felt used. It's as much about the felt itself as it is the block. Got to have both of them. Trouble is, I have not seen that sort of felt much, except in a vintage HJ I used to own.
At least I won't have to sand anymore! That can become a chore. And I reckon I finally got my sanity back in the process.
Plus some guys can take almost any hat and with finesse of style, can make em look great. Then some guys can take a hat that will lend the look really well, and post a monstrosity of a hat. I say this in a kidding manner, but it's the truth. Fedora
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Fedora wrote:
Steve, can you take a picture of your new final Raiders block that matches this picture? There is a close one in your other thread but its too much downward angle. I'd love to see a couple good front on shots of that hat and see how it stacks up to the CS blockshape.
I think you are correct with the new Raiders block but I still want to see a picture that really sells it to me. Because right now the CS is selling me in the above picture because of that tall crown and stovepipe sides.
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
So, when one of us requests a Raiders hat when we purchase an AB from you the hat will be made using this *final* Raiders block?
Yeah, I'd like to see some pics of a hat made from the new block too.
Yeah, I'd like to see some pics of a hat made from the new block too.
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
I will get some pics of the final block soon.
Basically, you still have a choice from me. My old block, or my new. I realize that perception is the key, and the old block will give you a look similiar to the CS Raiders hat above. I have posted enough pics of it here on COW, so you should be able to find many of my old block.
You can also get the new block if you like a more compact looking crown, and it is still very straight compared to other non Indy hats, but is in my mind, closer to what the hat really was. Again, perception is part of the equation. And I know the new block works better with rabbit, which I will again offer in the future, probably through Indy Mag, as I think the heavier HJ bodies may be what I have been looking for, in replicating the Raiders look better.
Now, the new block does not work really well with a shellac added beaver body. I just tried that combo yesterday. I had an old AB here, in for a reblock and I used the new block on it. And, I think the customer actually added even more stiffener, as I have had a few that like stiff hats. I think he added some because when I pounced the hat out, it turned white, which is an indication extra was added. I would have freaked out years ago, but with so many hats under my belt, I knew how to get rid of it! The hat turned out good, but I can tell the stiffer felt does not move just right and does not show this blockshape off as well as a no shellac body, or a no or low shellac rabbit body would. Marc and I recognized years ago that on a stiffer body, you actually have to caricature the block in order that the final creased hat to "act right". And this is where the caricature first started with us. Or at least with me. My early felt runs, always seemed to have shellac in the bodies, although none is supposed to be added at the factory for pure beaver dress bodies. But, they screw up from time to time, although you can't get them to own up to it. But, I am sure all who use their dress bodies have seen this. It's snake surprise on the shade of brown and whether or not they use shellac or not! Very frustrating for hatters. But even the finest feltmaker in the world, Portugal, have issues with the colors as we found out during the Indy 4 project. Marc's first run were just a bit darker than my own run, and that led Bernie to choose my felt, only based upon the lighter color. In order for Marc to be legit on our claims that he not only helped make the hats, but he also had felt in the film, thankfully he got in another run that was a light as my run was, and we could then use his felt in the film to get a match in color. So the colors issue is common, and always has been, as I found out later. It's more about the fur, as all beaver underfur is not the same color to start with, in its natural state. So, it absorbs the dye differently. But all bodies are left in the dye the same amount of time. This ends up lending the end color as not being identical, from run to run, or from fur batch to fur batch. And it only occurs in the darker colors, because the light colored bodies like silver belly, natural, or white have to have the same colored fur or you get splotches once it is dyed. So, they sort this fur for the lighter bodies differently, or use the same color of underfur for these colors. If they mess up, they don't throw these away, they just dye them a darker color! Off topic yet?? Boy, I can start on one thing and end up somewhere else. But when the thoughts hit me, good info thoughts, I have to get them out, or else I forget them! You never know what I will end up talking about on my posts. Probably drives the mods nuts! Fedora
Basically, you still have a choice from me. My old block, or my new. I realize that perception is the key, and the old block will give you a look similiar to the CS Raiders hat above. I have posted enough pics of it here on COW, so you should be able to find many of my old block.
You can also get the new block if you like a more compact looking crown, and it is still very straight compared to other non Indy hats, but is in my mind, closer to what the hat really was. Again, perception is part of the equation. And I know the new block works better with rabbit, which I will again offer in the future, probably through Indy Mag, as I think the heavier HJ bodies may be what I have been looking for, in replicating the Raiders look better.
Now, the new block does not work really well with a shellac added beaver body. I just tried that combo yesterday. I had an old AB here, in for a reblock and I used the new block on it. And, I think the customer actually added even more stiffener, as I have had a few that like stiff hats. I think he added some because when I pounced the hat out, it turned white, which is an indication extra was added. I would have freaked out years ago, but with so many hats under my belt, I knew how to get rid of it! The hat turned out good, but I can tell the stiffer felt does not move just right and does not show this blockshape off as well as a no shellac body, or a no or low shellac rabbit body would. Marc and I recognized years ago that on a stiffer body, you actually have to caricature the block in order that the final creased hat to "act right". And this is where the caricature first started with us. Or at least with me. My early felt runs, always seemed to have shellac in the bodies, although none is supposed to be added at the factory for pure beaver dress bodies. But, they screw up from time to time, although you can't get them to own up to it. But, I am sure all who use their dress bodies have seen this. It's snake surprise on the shade of brown and whether or not they use shellac or not! Very frustrating for hatters. But even the finest feltmaker in the world, Portugal, have issues with the colors as we found out during the Indy 4 project. Marc's first run were just a bit darker than my own run, and that led Bernie to choose my felt, only based upon the lighter color. In order for Marc to be legit on our claims that he not only helped make the hats, but he also had felt in the film, thankfully he got in another run that was a light as my run was, and we could then use his felt in the film to get a match in color. So the colors issue is common, and always has been, as I found out later. It's more about the fur, as all beaver underfur is not the same color to start with, in its natural state. So, it absorbs the dye differently. But all bodies are left in the dye the same amount of time. This ends up lending the end color as not being identical, from run to run, or from fur batch to fur batch. And it only occurs in the darker colors, because the light colored bodies like silver belly, natural, or white have to have the same colored fur or you get splotches once it is dyed. So, they sort this fur for the lighter bodies differently, or use the same color of underfur for these colors. If they mess up, they don't throw these away, they just dye them a darker color! Off topic yet?? Boy, I can start on one thing and end up somewhere else. But when the thoughts hit me, good info thoughts, I have to get them out, or else I forget them! You never know what I will end up talking about on my posts. Probably drives the mods nuts! Fedora
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Off topic? Maybe. Do I care? No.
Very intesting about the dying, though.
Could you reblock a CS AB on one of these new Raiders blocks with ease? I've been thinking about turning the first one you sent me, Steve, into a Raiders hat. What do you think?
Dave
Very intesting about the dying, though.
Could you reblock a CS AB on one of these new Raiders blocks with ease? I've been thinking about turning the first one you sent me, Steve, into a Raiders hat. What do you think?
Dave
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
how do you get that bash
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
I have to agree, that is one amazing bash/block! It may not be technically screen accurate, but it looks amazing to me. -M
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Steve, what can I say.
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
please tell me ho to bash like that
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
please respond
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
When we saw Terry riding the horse on the ridge above the road, I think we all though- What HAPPENED to the HAT?!! .... oh, that must be a stuntman. - With a make-do, little hat. I doubt seriously Terry's hat was off the Raiders block.
Last edited by 3thoubucks on Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:35 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Practice.indyjonesstudent1 wrote:please respond
Dave
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
The crease in Terry's hat is almost completely popped out. Not a really good example against that profile shot of Ford with his hat creased. With the top crease popped out, you can really see how symetrical the block is. I think I'm slowly becoming obsessed with the CS block, though. I think that CS blocked Raiders hat is one of the best I've ever seen!3thoubucks wrote:When we saw Terry riding the horse on the ridge above the road, I think we all though- What HAPPENED to the HAT?!! .... oh, that must be a stuntman. - I doubt seriously that hat used the Raiders block.
Dave
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
If that had been Ford, with his top bash pushed up in back, the hat turned back toward center, it still wouldn't look as completely wrong as Terry's. It would look like a screwed up Raiders hat, but instantly recognizeable as the Raiders hat. IMO.
Last edited by 3thoubucks on Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Your right. The pics of Ford's hats with the back popped up don't look like that. Could it be that Leonard has a regular oval head while Ford has a long oval? If the brim is affected to the point that it swoops in that dramatic fashion, wouldn't the crown be affected as well?
Dave
Dave
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
As you turn a hat, you get more taper in the front and back. Ford's hat is turned, Terry's hat isn't turned, and it's taperd in back. If Terry's head is a rounder oval than Ford's, he should be geting even MORE reverse taper in back than Ford.
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
That's the same thing I get with some hats, and I'm a long oval, so I agree with 3K$ on this.3thoubucks wrote:As you turn a hat, you get more taper in the front and back. Ford's hat is turned, Terry's hat isn't turned, and it's taperd in back. If Terry's head is a rounder oval than Ford's, he should be geting even MORE reverse taper in back than Ford.
Regards, Geert
Edit for clarity: what I get is taper in the back, not reverse taper, so that's why I agree with 3K$
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Yes, no problem there.Could you reblock a CS AB on one of these new Raiders blocks with ease? I
This hat does not appear to be the same as this one!When we saw Terry riding the horse on the ridge above the road, I think we all though- What HAPPENED to the HAT?!!
But of course we know that it is the same hat!! So why is that degree of taper NOT showing up on the pics before he goes under the truck?? I don't think the angle of the shot is the culprit.
One word, SHRINKAGE. The first place a hat tapers in the heat is on the front and back. Also, his top crease is barely in and any taper on the front or back would be seen when the hat was creased in this manner. This hat, the horse hat, if creased down would yield a straight back, just like Ford's. Taper does crease out. And most blocks are tapered on the back and front. If you have no taper, you get true reverse taper, that is certainly not accurate to the film hat. We see true reverse taper on the hat that is lying on the wing(I think) but the back of the brim is curled upward in that shot, and with the soft felt, you get true reverse taper. But that was put in by the brim pressing in on the back of the hat. I just replicated that on my own hat, and you can too, even if the back had taper that you creased out.
There are enough pics of Terry in the behind the scenes videos, one with him sitting next to Ford, and the hats look too close to be "different hats". And in that footage, you never see the hat as tapered as it is while he is riding the horse. I have studied this footage for eons. Logically, we have to assume that the hat shrunk up, and this shrinkage can be seen on Ford's hats as they morph, and present different looks. And one reason it is difficult to make one block that yields all of those various "looks". Most pick out a fav hat from this film, and zero in on that as what they want. But we all know, that it is hard to pull off the SOC look, just by creaseing a hat, a new hat that is. Gotta do alot more to it to get that look. I would bet if you owned a hat in that same felt, and wore it in the heat, doing stunts, etc, your hat too would change as time progressed, giving you the various looks of this one blockshape. All have experienced hat shrinkage, if you had the hat long enough. That's what hats do, some faster than others, depending upon the felt used.
How do I crease hats? The same as everyone else, I reckon. Child's play. But alot of practice is very beneficial.Fedora
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
I just pulled my own off my head and took these by the pc. I will show different angles so you get a good idea of what it looks like.Steve, can you take a picture of your new final Raiders block that matches this picture?
Not much difference from any Raiders hat I have made and sold. This illustrates to me that the block can vary a bit and still look decent. It made me a true believer in this blockshape deal. This block has taper, front and back, and even some on the sides, with an arc involved on the sides worked into the taper. And I ended up only replicating a vintage block I owned, almost to the 't". I discovered this after I had made the block. My luck. It seems not matter what I do to the block, all my hats seem to always look the same. Go figure. I am cursed. Fedora
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Yeah, but if they are all awesome, is that a bad thing?
Dave
Dave
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Steve, you've got a PM from me.
Dave
Dave
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
I just finished this one up, off of my final block. Dusted it down with a mix of natural and red fuller's earth for a more worn look.
Here she is tilted back a bit.
I pressed the upper sides in to give it a bit of Raven Bar, posed by the mantle look.
Then I adjusted the sides, to get them straighter and it just looks like a generic Raiders fedora to me here.
This sorta looks close to the cafe scene, where Indy faced off Belloq.
And lastly, the back shot.
As I said earlier, I tried to take out what I considered to be caricatures in my other blocks. A bit more finesse involved, to pull off a decent Raiders look, while still sticking with a traditional vintage blockshape in the process. And, it is my own vision of the Raiders fedora. Visions can vary.
This body is beaver, and with the right felt, like some bulgy rabbit, I think this would work really well. Heck, even if it doesn't look accurate, I think it is a cool looking fedora, at least inspired by the Raiders fedora. But, the old blocks are still here as well, for those that prefer the blockier crown. So, I do offer a choice. The AB original Raiders block, and the Final Raiders block. Ought to be easy to keep that straight. Fedora
Here she is tilted back a bit.
I pressed the upper sides in to give it a bit of Raven Bar, posed by the mantle look.
Then I adjusted the sides, to get them straighter and it just looks like a generic Raiders fedora to me here.
This sorta looks close to the cafe scene, where Indy faced off Belloq.
And lastly, the back shot.
As I said earlier, I tried to take out what I considered to be caricatures in my other blocks. A bit more finesse involved, to pull off a decent Raiders look, while still sticking with a traditional vintage blockshape in the process. And, it is my own vision of the Raiders fedora. Visions can vary.
This body is beaver, and with the right felt, like some bulgy rabbit, I think this would work really well. Heck, even if it doesn't look accurate, I think it is a cool looking fedora, at least inspired by the Raiders fedora. But, the old blocks are still here as well, for those that prefer the blockier crown. So, I do offer a choice. The AB original Raiders block, and the Final Raiders block. Ought to be easy to keep that straight. Fedora
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Oh my gosh!
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
I nevr get tired of looking at your work Steve.
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Steve, she is beautiful. That second front shot is one of my favorite Raiders looks I've ever seen. Beautiful work as always, my friend.
Dave
Dave
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Thanks to all of you. After watching the CS fedora in action, which is completely straight up on the sides, until it reaches the flattish dome, I knew the Raiders hat looked more compact. Of course, I always knew this, but the CS film reminded me again of that fact. It was obvious to me, the Raiders fedora had to be different, and this is the result of that observation. My new block is still straight up, from the bottom, but it starts the taper lower on the sides than my old block. And we are not talking about much taper here, but there is some. About 1/8 an inch per side, once it reaches a certain point on the block. It then has that little taper until it reaches the point of the side radius. These hats are still straight looking once you crease them, as I can't stand much taper at all. I can get this new block to show taper, just by creasing them in a particular way. But any taper I can get by the crease job is still fairly accurate to the film, while still being able to pull off the straighter hats too.
I guess one important fact is, a block does not have to be blocky looking, to pull off the look. But the blocky block is the easiest way to approach the raiders fedora when you are trying to replicate it. I just felt the original block was not blocky is all. The CS block is blocky, and today I feel as if that caricatures the Raiders fedora. But, just one hatters opinion. Certainly not a fact. We each have our own vision of this fedora. And all of us sell our visions. Between all of the offerings, you will find a hat that suits your own particular vision. That is the best part of this.
At least Marc and I have the blocks used for the CS hat. And we don't have to guess much with that hat. And we don't have to worry that we are not accurate enough! What a relief! Fedora
I guess one important fact is, a block does not have to be blocky looking, to pull off the look. But the blocky block is the easiest way to approach the raiders fedora when you are trying to replicate it. I just felt the original block was not blocky is all. The CS block is blocky, and today I feel as if that caricatures the Raiders fedora. But, just one hatters opinion. Certainly not a fact. We each have our own vision of this fedora. And all of us sell our visions. Between all of the offerings, you will find a hat that suits your own particular vision. That is the best part of this.
At least Marc and I have the blocks used for the CS hat. And we don't have to guess much with that hat. And we don't have to worry that we are not accurate enough! What a relief! Fedora
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Steve, are the hats coming off this new block shorter than before?
Dave
Dave
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Yes they are. No, they are not. Really Dave, it depends upon the hat size. The max open crown height is 5 1/2, for the larger heads. The Raiders fedora has been seen, even by me, as being taller than it actually was. It really was not as tall as many think, and you can tell this by looking at pics of folks wearing the taller AB Raider fedoras. Most look taller than the film hat appeared to be, on Harry. I am making mostly CS fedoras these days, with a Raider hat, every now and then. The hat posted above, the CS Raider hat is the right height for a Raiders hat, IMO. The Raider hat, the last pics above is 5 1/2 open crown too, but it is a larger hat for a larger head. But, should look good on that larger head size. But time will tell.Steve, are the hats coming off this new block shorter than before
For Ford's size, I am dropping the crown down, compared to my older Raider fedoras. LLS, convinced me, or nailed the nail in the design as he uses a shorter crown height, and he is between a 7 3/8 and a 7 1/2, and his hats look good on him with this shorter height. Just as long as you can still get the top creases in deep enough, is the key.
So my Raider fedora, depending upon head size will run from 5 inchs to 5 1/2 inches depending upon hat size. Same tinkering goes on with brim sizes. I am trying to keep things into proportion with the hats I make. As we found out with your CS fedora. The stock brim, per film, will not work on you. It's a pity we can't all have Ford's head shape and hat size. The art of hatting, is getting an Indy fedora to look right on each of us. And, that is the most difficult part. I have remade plenty of hats that did not look right. And in all honesty, I am still learning. For instance, a long oval, or long long oval hat should have less brim, as one would assume these heads come with narrow faces. But, here's the catch, this IS NOT always true. As I found out recently. The best insurance for a hatter is to have a picture of the head, with a hat on it, and then the customer tells me what size the brim is, or if the hat is a long oval, etc. This tells me what I need to do in order to get the proportions correct for that person. On some the 2 7/8 by 2 5/8 brim looks fine. On others, it is just too much. Or, the 2 3/4 by 2 1/2 looks good on some, but on others, it is not enough. Fedora
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Makes perfect sense to me. It's the whole idea of beeing YOU accurate and not SA. All the little nuances of the hat are recreated but to fit your face...the way it used to be.
Dave
Dave
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Here are a few pics of the new block using rabbit felt. I made this one 4 7/8 tall after creasing, instead of 5 inches. In crown heights, even 1/8 an inch is noticable. That's the thing about hats, whether you are talking about crowns or brims.
Going by the work LLS did, with his screen caps and the ruler, he came up with the Raiders fedora being shorter than most of us think of the Raiders fedora. And, I agree with him, since I was told practically the same thing by Bernie, when he originally used the 5 1/4 open crown height. I think, like LLS, it was actually 5 3/8 open crowned, as most Raider fedoras I have made in the past just look a bit too tall to be screen accurate. This was driven home again when I looked at my pic in article on me awhile back in a newspaper. I had on my old HJ, 5 1/2 open crown, and it looked like Old Abe's top hat in that pic. It's weird what 1/8 an inch looks like once the hat is creased. You really can see it! Ok, the pics. Oh, on this first pic, to me the hat looks similiar to Indy's hat in the behind the scenes footage, where he is about to be dragged behind the truck.
As you can see, my Raiders block is not as blocky as the CS block. I like this more streamlined look better, as the film hat appeared to be more streamline than the CS hat does. Fedora
Going by the work LLS did, with his screen caps and the ruler, he came up with the Raiders fedora being shorter than most of us think of the Raiders fedora. And, I agree with him, since I was told practically the same thing by Bernie, when he originally used the 5 1/4 open crown height. I think, like LLS, it was actually 5 3/8 open crowned, as most Raider fedoras I have made in the past just look a bit too tall to be screen accurate. This was driven home again when I looked at my pic in article on me awhile back in a newspaper. I had on my old HJ, 5 1/2 open crown, and it looked like Old Abe's top hat in that pic. It's weird what 1/8 an inch looks like once the hat is creased. You really can see it! Ok, the pics. Oh, on this first pic, to me the hat looks similiar to Indy's hat in the behind the scenes footage, where he is about to be dragged behind the truck.
As you can see, my Raiders block is not as blocky as the CS block. I like this more streamlined look better, as the film hat appeared to be more streamline than the CS hat does. Fedora
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
I never tire of seeing your work Steve. You truly are a master.
Dave
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Of course I appreciate the kudos, but I certainly don't feel I am a master of anything. I am just an average hatter, in my own mind. I have had plenty of pratice, as I am sure I am in the thousands now, of handmade hats. I lost count a long time ago. Probably around 3 thousand, over the last 5 years. And, when I get back in an old AB for a reblock, I shudder at my sewing skills from that era. I am actually ashamed of most of those hats now. They certainly are sent back looking much better than my earlier work. But, I basically had little help in learning the craft. And what help I did get, was from a crazy man, who was intent of teaching me the wrong ways!! Undermining me from the get-go. FedoraI never tire of seeing your work Steve. You truly are a master.
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Well, I still think your a master and an artist. I can't wait to place my next order with you! Repeat customers, and man are there plenty of them for you, my friend, are a good indication that you are more than just an average hatter.
Dave
Dave
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
I think what sets us apart is that we do by hand, what is done by machines in a hat factory. You get more control when you do so. And, we are probably in the minority, when compared to other hatters, except the custom western hatters. They kept the hand made hat alive, until we came onto the scene.
I think with many hatters, if you took their machines away, they would be lost. Just an opinon. And if they did not have girls doing their sewing, they would be up a creek. When you get a hat from us, you get a hat made by one guy. From start to finish. (But for awhile, I did have help, but not anymore)
One thing is for sure though. I have never seen any factory hat that was as good as ours. We just take much more time with each hat. Fedora
I think with many hatters, if you took their machines away, they would be lost. Just an opinon. And if they did not have girls doing their sewing, they would be up a creek. When you get a hat from us, you get a hat made by one guy. From start to finish. (But for awhile, I did have help, but not anymore)
One thing is for sure though. I have never seen any factory hat that was as good as ours. We just take much more time with each hat. Fedora
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
That is exactly what I love about your hats and John's hats. You both pour your heart and soul into each hat that you make and it shows. Your attention to detail is unparalleled. I don't own one of Marc's hats, but I know he is in the same boat as you guys. That is why I love you guys.
Dave
Dave
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Marc is as precise as a german engineer! I think he even counts stitches so each hat is identical. I have never seen such precision from a hatter. Fedora
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
WOW! You're still perfecting the perfect.
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
No matter the angle, the tilt, the lighting, whether it's a tight shot, or a wide shot (heck, even a BLURRY shot!) ... it doesn't matter:
I could look at pictures of your hats ALL DAY LONG, Steve!
(Now, if I could just get my grubby MITS on one!)
I could look at pictures of your hats ALL DAY LONG, Steve!
(Now, if I could just get my grubby MITS on one!)
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Fedora wrote:Marc is as precise as a german engineer! I think he even counts stitches so each hat is identical. I have never seen such precision from a hatter. Fedora
I laugh because it's sooooo true.
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Darn, that hat looks just about perfect to me. I look forward to the one I ordered. Keep them coming!
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
I see now why you wanted to confirm measurements with me. I think LLS is right in that the Raiders hats were lower than previously thought. It always strikes me how small the hat looks on Harrison when compared to his head. Especially in this shot: http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/162.jpgFedora wrote:Here are a few pics of the new block using rabbit felt. I made this one 4 7/8 tall after creasing, instead of 5 inches. In crown heights, even 1/8 an inch is noticable. That's the thing about hats, whether you are talking about crowns or brims.
Going by the work LLS did, with his screen caps and the ruler, he came up with the Raiders fedora being shorter than most of us think of the Raiders fedora. And, I agree with him, since I was told practically the same thing by Bernie, when he originally used the 5 1/4 open crown height. I think, like LLS, it was actually 5 3/8 open crowned, as most Raider fedoras I have made in the past just look a bit too tall to be screen accurate. This was driven home again when I looked at my pic in article on me awhile back in a newspaper. I had on my old HJ, 5 1/2 open crown, and it looked like Old Abe's top hat in that pic. It's weird what 1/8 an inch looks like once the hat is creased. You really can see it!
I mean just compare the crown height to the width of the ribbon.
I look forward to the day budget allows me to get me one of your hats, Steve. I'm definately gonna get one before you decide to retire.
Kind regards,
Richard
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
[quote] mean just compare the crown height to the width of the ribbon.
/quote]
Yes, the SOC hat had some stuff going on with it. Most think the ribbon was slid up and the hat had no sweatband. It does look distressed from the heat of filming in that area. I think it saw some shrinkage in crown height as well, when compared to some of the other, newer hats in that film. I would be really surprised if it did not. Fedora
/quote]
Yes, the SOC hat had some stuff going on with it. Most think the ribbon was slid up and the hat had no sweatband. It does look distressed from the heat of filming in that area. I think it saw some shrinkage in crown height as well, when compared to some of the other, newer hats in that film. I would be really surprised if it did not. Fedora
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Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Steve, will the HJ Magnolis be avaiable in your new block? thanks
Re: Some thoughts on my Raiders block quest
Yes indeed. FedoraSteve, will the HJ Magnolis be avaiable in your new block? thanks
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