Raiders Butterfield Auction jacket - What the...?

[CM]

Hi All,

Is there a shared understanding of just what exactly the Butterfield auction jacket is or was? Was it made for Raiders; made after Raiders; or used on Raiders?

In the Bantu Wind thread there was some dicussion that it may have been made by Peter's old pre-Wested company a few years after the film was made. Is there any reliable information on this jacket?

[Satipo]

The thing that catches my eye is the large distance between the left (wearer's) pocket and the stormflap stitching. I don't recall seeing that detail in Raiders.

[CM]

Indeed. It is not the Martin Grace jacket, surely?

[RCSignals]

Look at the left pocket/flap distance on this jacket

click

Click

[Dutch_jones]

RCs do you have picture of the back of that jacket?

[sebas]

The pocket size is accurate, however on the Marin Grace jacket (as well as the early Westeds) have the side strap sewn directly on the bottom of the hand warmer openneing. Interesting nonetheless. What jacke is this again RC?

[RCSignals]

Sebas, there is no definitve proof I've found that the Butterfield auction jacket is the Martin Grace jacket.

The jacket pictured is Lee Kepplers jacket from the mid '80s, and likely the basis for your '90s jacket.

[Mac]

Look at the left pocket/flap distance on this jacket

That mid 1980’s Leather Concessionaires appears to have a wider storm flap than current Westeds, possibly 1.75” like the Raiders jacket that Nowak copied. That makes the pockets appear farther apart (well actually they are!) Also, as I recall, the standard Nowak Raiders pocket placement on the storm flap side is 1.5” from the stitching and the Concessionaire jacket also appears to be in that ballpark. Coincidence?

The Butterfield jacket, though, seems to have the pockets even farther apart, as on Holt's photo:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g182/ ... eld2-1.jpg

Here’s Holt’s comparison with another vintage Concessionaires:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g182/ ... rfield.jpg

- Mac

[RCSignals]

Look at the left pocket/flap distance on this jacket

That mid 1980’s Leather Concessionaires appears to have a wider storm flap than current Westeds, possibly 1.75” like the Raiders jacket that Nowak copied. That makes the pockets appear farther apart (well actually they are!) Also, as I recall, the standard Nowak Raiders pocket placement on the storm flap side is 1.5” from the stitching and the Concessionaire jacket also appears to be in that ballpark. Coincidence?

The Butterfield jacket, though, seems to have the pockets even farther apart, as on Holt's photo:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g182/ ... eld2-1.jpg

Here’s Holt’s comparison with another vintage Concessionaires:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g182/ ... rfield.jpg

- Mac

Sorry Mac. your estimated sizes of a Nowak storm flap are off. You don't have one to measure do you?

The storm flap width will not make the left pocket seem farther away, it has to do with the pocket distance from the seam.

[Mac]

Sorry Mac. your estimated sizes of a Nowak storm flap are off.

Chris King's requested an exact copy of the hero (with a few changes, and storm flap width wasn't one of those.)

viewtopic.php?p=513500#p513500

Interesting to note that the storm flap IS wider than all other jackets I've owned. It's 1.75" wide on Tony's jacket.

The 1.5" pocket placement was from a PM with Chris, who thought that's what the standard was (he requested 1" instead.) I believe Chris was mistaken and the pocket is actually 1.25" from the stitching, per some post or other around here.

If those measurements aren't right, it would be helpful if you could provide them; then we can discuss why Chris's storm flap differs from the original hero jacket.

A wider storm flap physically places the pockets further apart (really it does RC, do I have to make a photoshop jacket with a one foot wide storm flap!), and both the vintage Concessionaires and the Nowak Raiders place the pocket more than an inch from the flap stitching.

- Mac

[RCSignals]

Sorry Mac. your estimated sizes of a Nowak storm flap are off.

Chris King's requested an exact copy of the hero (with a few changes, and storm flap width wasn't one of those.)

viewtopic.php?p=513500#p513500

Interesting to note that the storm flap IS wider than all other jackets I've owned. It's 1.75" wide on Tony's jacket.

The 1.5" pocket placement was from a PM with Chris, who thought that's what the standard was (he requested 1" instead.) I believe Chris was mistaken and the pocket is actually 1.25" from the stitching, per some post or other around here.

If those measurements aren't right, it would be helpful if you could provide them; then we can discuss why Chris's storm flap differs from the original hero jacket.

You are assuming Chris King's measurement was accurate.

A wider storm flap physically places the pockets further apart (really it does RC, do I have to make a photoshop jacket with a one foot wide storm flap!), and both the vintage Concessionaires and the Nowak Raiders place the pocket more than an inch from the flap stitching.

- Mac

Yes, a one foot wide storm flap would be reasonable

The left pocket is placed from the stitch seam, which is also the zipper position, it doesn't matter the width of the storm flap as any extra width will always be to the opposite side of the stitch seam.

I'm not sure of your purpose here with your line of thought and how it relates to the Butterfield auction jacket.

[Michaelson]

I have to agree, since this is a discussion regarding the Butterfield jacket, why was the Nowak jacket even brought up? This makes as much sense as someone starting a topic on a Raiders used HJ and someone dragging in a Garrison 'Raiders' rabbit fedora comparsion.

Let's keep things to topic, if you don't mind, that being the Butterfield jacket. WE KNOW IT wasn't a TN, so let's move along.....

Regards! Michaelson

[Dutch_jones]

The jacket from the Butterfields auction is the jacket Tony Nowak had? I thought that was what was posted in that really long thread about TN having an original to copy?

[Michaelson]

Not that I'm aware of, Dutch.

If you can find, then cut and paste that information here, and we mean 'fact', NOT someones theory, please do so.

Otherwise, let's go no further down this path.

Regards !Michaelson

[Dutch_jones]

Not that I'm aware of, Dutch.

If you can find, then cut and paste that information here, and we mean 'fact', NOT someones theory, please do so.

Otherwise, let's go no further down this path.

Regards !Michaelson

I'll do so in the morning right now i'm halfway from hitting my head into the desk for an early night! I might be mistaken ofcourse, will sort it out in the morning!

[Michaelson]

That's how I was last night! Rest well!

Regards! Michaelson

[Mac]

Apologies for mudding the waters, but as the pocket spacing on the Butterfield was mentioned and RCSignals introduced a mid 80’s Concessionaires jacket for comparison, I felt it was good place to point out the early Concessionaires ostensible similarity to the (alleged?) wider storm flap and pocket placement of the Nowak Raiders.

Clearly agreement here will be akin to pulling teeth , so back to your regularly scheduled thread…

Dutch was probably referring to this thread where the Butterfield and TN are discussed at length:

viewtopic.php?p=498015#p498015

- Mac

[Michaelson]

Dutch was probably referring to this thread where the Butterfield and TN are discussed at length:

viewtopic.php?p=498015#p498015

- Mac

Could be. Let's keep that one there so we don't have to lock one of these for duplication of topics.

Regards! Michaelson

[Dutch_jones]

Apologies for mudding the waters, but as the pocket spacing on the Butterfield was mentioned and RCSignals introduced a mid 80’s Concessionaires jacket for comparison, I felt it was good place to point out the early Concessionaires ostensible similarity to the (alleged?) wider storm flap and pocket placement of the Nowak Raiders.

Clearly agreement here will be akin to pulling teeth , so back to your regularly scheduled thread…

Dutch was probably referring to this thread where the Butterfield and TN are discussed at length:

viewtopic.php?p=498015#p498015

- Mac

Thank you mac

Both jackets came from the same "collector" and the first was the Martin Grace jacket sold at Butterfields.

So there you have it

[Michaelson]

Very good!

Question answered, this one is done.

Since the OTHER thread was locked, it's easy to see how this particular topic seems to go off track. 'Volitile' is the word that comes to mind. We don't need to re-invent THAT wheel. Review that old thread, and you'll find a LOT more information that was hashed out there.

Thanks!

Regards! Michaelson