HJ and their "poet"

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:40 pm

Seeing as the Herbert Johnson "Poet" isn't made from the original block as the Raiders fedora, how accurate is it? And if it's not perfect is there a more accurate fedora? I really want a Raiders shape.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:46 pm

The modern HJ poet, as I understand it, is basically the same hat as the Christy's Adventurer, save for the crown height.

Depending on how screen accurate you want it to be, for some, it's not a suitable Raiders hat.

But there's no shortage of good Raiders hats sold by some friendly vendors here....the AB Henry, Penman Raider, Garrison Hatters all have Raiders hats.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:13 pm

I'd go so far as to say that for *most* of the people here, it's not a suitable Raiders hat - neither in terms of the look nor the durability.

@snapbrim - if you want a great Raiders hat, I have a short list of 4 hats that would fit the bill. Just so you know, these hats are not listed in any particular order.

1. Adventurebilt - http://www.adventurebilthats.com/
2. Adventurebilt Henry - http://www.adventurebiltdeluxe.com/henry.php
3. Penman Hat Co. - http://www.penmanhats.com/
4. Garrison Hatters - http://www.garrisonhatters.com/

Any of these will make GREAT Indy hats, although I should note a couple of caveats:

*number 1 has obscene wait times (up to a year and a half right now)
**numbers 2 and 4 are not pure beaver felt, which means they won't be as durable (although they'll still be far better than what Herbert Johnson can provide.
**not really a caveat, but numbers 1 and 3 are custom hatters, meaning that your hat will be made by hand by the guy you're buying it from.

Happy buying! -M

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:18 pm

The original Raiders hat wasn't a pure Beaver hat though.....

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:32 pm

Offhand, I'd recommend two, if waiting is a problem. The AB Henry sold by Penman could be on your doorstep in less than a week. John can style it, if needed, and it is a rabbit/beaver felt blended fedora. Price is $250 plus $20 shipping. The other would be Peters Brothers, custom made, soft rabbit/beaver blend for $205, plus shipping. I ordered one about two weeks ago, and it should be on my doorstep within the next week, so turnaround time right now is about 3 weeks, currently.

The Raiders hat was rabbit, but the rabbit/beaver blend will add more stability and durability to the felt over time.

Travelsonic · Post by **Travelsonic** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:47 pm

Funny, last I looked, they said 12 weeks on their website.

On e-bay I saw [can't post a link, so I won't, pictures are below] a HJ [non-poet?] in chocolate brown from 1982 - one year after Raiders came out. Blue HJ crest [when they were situated at 13 Old Burlington Rd, Saville Row], really good indy color.

I'd get it myself but it is about a size-and-a-half too small for me.

Is that when they were still using the Brazilian fur felt? If so, if somebody were to (first get it), re-ribbon and re-block/re-bash it, IMO, it would probably be hands down the closes thing anybody - aside from ScreenUsed who has the real thing - would have to a real raiders fedora.

####, I wished it were in my size, if only...

EDIT: pics from the auction on e-bay I saw:

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:21 pm

jlee562 wrote:The original Raiders hat wasn't a pure Beaver hat though.....

Does it matter? There are differences, yes, between rabbit and beaver, but you're going to get a very accurate Raiders hat either way. The beaver might not be as floppy, but if you intend to actually use and abuse your hat, it's the way to go. And besides, Snapbrim didn't say he wanted absolute perfection (thank god he didn't, as that would involve both breaking into the Lucasfilm archives and extremely expensive cosmetic surgery to make your skull identical to that of Harrison Ford), he just said he wanted a really good Raiders shape, and you can get that whether you go for beaver or rabbit. -M

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:30 pm

The Raiders hat wasn't beaver, but if you want your hat to last you, you'll get beaver. Rabbit just doesn't hold up. Once beaver softens up, it begins reacting more like the Raiders hat. In my opinion, if you want a Raiders hat, there are three guys you go to: Penman, Adventurebilt, and Adventurebilt Deluxe. My second choices would be Garrison and the Adventurebilt Henry. You don't want to go with rabbit as it just won't last even though the Raiders hat was rabbit. Trust me.

Dave

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:38 am

@ Dr Ulloa - just a small correction - AB Deluxe is officially shut down right now as Marc is trying to catch up with his orders. That's why I didn't include them in the list. So the choices for beaver are really down to AB regular and Penman. -M

Travelsonic · Post by **Travelsonic** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:40 am

Does anybody have a picture of a non-replix, non-Todd's Costume, non-magnoli Herbert Johnson Poet from very very recent? Just to get an idea of what they look like if I were to get one? Or is the picture on swaineadeney.co.uk an accurate picture?

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:43 am

I forgot about that, Mulceber. Thanks.

Travelsonic, SAB is the only other place to purchase an HJ Poet, that I am aware of. It seems pretty accurate to the stuff I've seen come out of there before.

Dave

Travelsonic · Post by **Travelsonic** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:47 am

DR Ulloa wrote: Travelsonic, SAB is the only other place to purchase an HJ Poet, that I am aware of. It seems pretty accurate to the stuff I've seen come out of there before.

Dave

The SAB site's image makes the current Poet offerings look - not "great" compared to past works when it comes to what an IJ fan wants them to look like, but not terrible like some people make the current poets out to be. That's why I asked.

Tremolo · Post by **Tremolo** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:52 am

You can see some more pictures of recent HJ on the movieshop.com site, and if you compare it with the Christy´s you can see here in various threads you will easily see that they are the same hats except for the crown height and the price tag.

I think they make a nice Raiders style hat but an even better LC or Young Indy hat. So if you got the money you can´t go wrong with the options listed above and get a fantastic Raiders hat.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:33 am

That is a nice 82 HJ. Now, I can't see Raiders in that hat, and that reinforces the idea that the Raiders fedora was special indeed. Looks like right after HJ made the Raiders fedora, the Poet came with TLC bow work. Complete with exterior fold on the middle know of the bow. Fedora

Travelsonic · Post by **Travelsonic** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:05 pm

Tremolo wrote:You can see some more pictures of recent HJ on the movieshop.com site...

I think the photos on the movieshop were a slop job, and not at all that accurate for seeing what the recent Poets are like.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:18 pm

My friend, if all the pictures you are seeing of the Poet look bad, its not the pictures, but the hat. It simply doesn't make a good Raiders hat.

Dave

Travelsonic · Post by **Travelsonic** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:02 pm

DR Ulloa wrote:My friend, if all the pictures you are seeing of the Poet look bad, its not the pictures, but the hat. It simply doesn't make a good Raiders hat.

Dave

I'm not in it for the raiders hat style. I was talking about the HJ poet's construction quality in general. The movie shop makes the poet in general look like @#$% (terrible bash, ribbon job/placement, brim, etc), but from what I've seen everywhere else (especially in Fedora's topic with the pictures of vintage / new HJs), the construction of the hat isn't THAT terrible, and it still looks like a good hat for TOD/LC/Young Indy styling.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:17 pm

The block used on these does lend itself to the ToD, LC, and YIJC styles. If you really are set on the HJ, that is fine, but the Christy's is the same hat for a fraction of the price. But, the modern HJ is a horrible hat, in my opinion. I'm no longer talking about SA in terms of Raiders, just in construction. The materials are terrible and its construction is just as bad.

Dave

Travelsonic · Post by **Travelsonic** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:16 pm

Fedora wrote:That is a nice 82 HJ.

Was it when they still were using Curry (didn't butcher the name, did I? I hope not) as a felt supplier?

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:25 pm

That isn't confirmed. The Raiders felt may have been changed by '82, maybe not. It is possible that that hat has the same felt that the Raiders hat had. As Steve pointed out, though, it appears as though that hat was made after that ffirst factory change after Raiders was made.

Dave

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:00 pm

jlee562 wrote:The modern HJ poet, as I understand it, is basically the same hat as the Christy's Adventurer, save for the crown height.

So which hat is taller?

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:13 pm

The HJ is 5 1/2'' while the Christy's is supposed to be 5 3/4''.

Dave

Tremolo · Post by **Tremolo** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:33 pm

Yep, but you can tell them you want a lower crown, they´ve just confirmed that to me last week.
To me they also look very identical otherwise.
The HJ crest is nice, but to me it isn´t worth the extra 150 pounds compared to the Christy´s.
10 years ago HJ still had some "magic" around it and it was something very special to own one.. but today there are so many great looking Indy hats available that seem to be a much better buy that it became quite easy to find your Indy hat.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:04 pm

but from what I've seen everywhere else (especially in Fedora's topic with the pictures of vintage / new HJs), the construction of the hat isn't THAT terrible

The old vintage HJs were very nice, and on par with the hats of that era. Today, the HJs are a big joke. Everything about the hat wreaks of low quality. And they fetch WAY too much for them.

Now, the HJs I get in for Indy Mag, are 5 3/4 open crown. The Christys I have gotten in were 5 1/2 open crown. I don't know if this is the rule or the exception on the Christys. Fedora

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:31 pm

Bink, I didn't even notice it was the same hat, but you are absolutely right

Regards, Geert

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:17 am

The auction H-J is a nice hat, but unless you absolutely have to have a vintage h-J you can get a just as nice or better hat in Beaver at a nicer price from one of the vendors here.

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:05 am

RCSignals wrote:The auction H-J is a nice hat, but unless you absolutely have to have a vintage h-J you can get a just as nice or better hat in Beaver at a nicer price from one of the vendors here.

I agree.The ebay HJ was a nice hat ,it would make a passable LC hat.I stopped watching at £252.00..maybe the high price was something to do with having pictures of it plastered all over COW while the auction was still running?.I wouldn't have been pleased to see those pics if I had been bidding on that hat.Posting pics is just the same as posting a link IMO.

Montana Jones · Post by **Montana Jones** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:18 am

mark seven wrote:
RCSignals wrote:The auction H-J is a nice hat, but unless you absolutely have to have a vintage h-J you can get a just as nice or better hat in Beaver at a nicer price from one of the vendors here.
I agree.The ebay HJ was a nice hat ,it would make a passable LC hat.I stopped watching at £252.00..maybe the high price was something to do with having pictures of it plastered all over COW while the auction was still running?.I wouldn't have been pleased to see those pics if I had been bidding on that hat.Posting pics is just the same as posting a link IMO.

I was quietly watching the hat and when the pics got posted here I knew it would fetch a pretty penny. Sure enough after a day or so the hat shot up several hundred dollars. There is nothing wrong with posting pics of the hat for reference but all hope of winning the hat died when they were posted before the auction ended. I hope someone on here got it and will post pictures when they have it in hand.

Regards to all,
Hollis

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:21 am

agree.The ebay HJ was a nice hat ,it would make a passable LC hat.I stopped watching at £252.00..maybe the high price was something to do with having pictures of it plastered all over COW while the auction was still running?.I

Very possible. A bidder's nightmare!!

I bought some of mine back at a very good price. One was from a private entity, and it went for a bit more. Back when I was really into HJs, I only wanted the really old ones though. Back when they were known for their fine hats. Pre WW2. They were made by HJ back then. Fedora

LANDINGPARTY · Post by **LANDINGPARTY** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:59 am

So who won the hat on ebay?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:10 pm

LANDINGPARTY wrote:So who won the hat on ebay?

That's what I want to know too.

Funny enough, this very forum MAKES the prices on certain items on ebay! That hat ended for $510,00 (about 362,49 euro). I bought a super rare vintage watch for far less... if it was anyone on this forum we're all curious to see high quality pictures of it! It has to be someone from here (I doubt it would have ended for the same price if it was the contrary)
Come on Steve, it's you isn't it?

Yeah I'm jealous, it was my very size too!!! I didn't place any bid because I knew it would have ended for that kind of money. I know that Adventurebuilts are more expensive than that but for some reason I find $510 far too much for it... it's simply personal opinion of course, I don't blame who bought it. I'll be happy to see some images of it because from the ebay pics I couldn't determine the amount of taper nor the width of the brim.

Snapbrim76 · Post by **Snapbrim76** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:26 am

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:54 am

That's the main reason why Magnoli and AB came up with their HJ offering. It's still an HJ, but put together by better hands.

jones the whip · Post by **jones the whip** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:48 am

Snapbrim76 wrote:I've just been to HJ again. The waiting list for next orders is until late October to early November.

Also, on closer inspection of the hat and after asking a few questions i've come across a few hidden traps that the dedicated Indy fan should be cautious of:

• The sweatband is stiff like card and doesn't seem comfy (they didn't have my size so I couldn't try it on)
• The sweatband appears to be glued (and sticks to the lining)
• For £190 (roughly $300 US) you don't get the ribbon the right colour and it will cost extra to send it away to the factory to get a more authentic one.
• The brim will also need the dimensional cut which will cost extra

Remember this is a machine made rabbit felt hat (durability issues not authenticity) and alterations are done off the premises. If you're like me and you want accuracy and good quality for your money, I personally feel the HJ is a bit of a let-down. If you just want HJ for the name then fine, but remember the man who made the real hat left HJ many years ago and according to many COW members, he is no longer alive Your hat won't be high quality or well made by hand but since when did poor stitching on a Nike stop the masses. It's up to you. But i'd rather go elsewhere.

Hi buddy,
I just want to come to HJ's defence slightly.
When I ordered my Poet (in person) from Swaine Adeney early in 2008, I also was warned of much that you have mentioned, therefore I went armed with documented requests for the finished hat that could be kept with the order and updated as the process went on.

The style I chose was LC (start of Castle Brunwald) which probebly lends itself a little better to the modern Poet than ROTLA, and I must say that I am extremely happy with it.

I honestly believe that if one is ordering from HJ (St James St, London) the more information you can provide for them, the better the finished product will be. The staff at the London store are friendly and helpful and the back room staff at their factory in Barhill, Cambridge are both approachable and keen to to assist you with the order, not to mention their easily accessed and on-going after care.

You have to remember that even though Swaine Adeney are the current custodians of the HJ Poet, that does'nt mean that they are Indy experts. IMO if want a good reproduction movie hat and you're prepared to provide them support in the endeavor, an HJ can bring great pleasure.
(You'll see the hat on the 14th

)
Cheers,
JTW.

IndyBrit · Post by **IndyBrit** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:38 am

Sorry to disagree but the modern HJ is not worth the money. It was my first fedora and it is now trashed. For sure the SAB people are friendly but my advice is go for a Henry. As you a Londoner, get hold of Marc as he should have them in stock.

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