The Bantu Wind discussions

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:00 pm

Look at the pic I posted and mac's the jacket has the same distressing pattern around the pocket flap and the same kind of collar. therefore it is a Raiders jacket

!!

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:05 pm

Is the jacket in Mac's post the Butterfield auction from 1984? If it is it would be a Raiders stunt jacket, according to this old writing by _ either the Grace jacket or the jacket he studied in 2000 and attributed to Terry Leonard.

"As a result, all but five original Raiders jackets have been lost. Those that survived? The hero jacket resides in George Lucas’ office at Skywalker Ranch. Vic Armstrong and Terry Leonard have their copies from the third order placed with Leather Concessionaires. Two other jackets made their way to Paramount – one was Martin Grace’s jacket from the third order and the other was a jacket in marginal condition that had Leonard’s name written in its lining. Reportedly, this last jacket had been pulled aside in order to fit a Wilson’s jacket for Leonard to wear during the truck dragging gag in Tunisia. The Grace jacket and the “marginal” Leonard jacket (presumably the only surviving jacket from the second order placed with Leather Concessionaires) were auctioned for charity in 1984 by Butterfields in Los Angeles. Grace’s jacket is lost, however the jacket with Leonard’s name in the lining was located and examined in August of 2000 and was the basis for the Flight Suits Expedition as well as having contributed to the ultimate specifications for Todd Coyle’s designs in 2007"

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:06 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:Look at the pic I posted and mac's the jacket has the same distressing pattern around the pocket flap and the same kind of collar. therefore it is a Raiders jacket !!

the photo you posted must be of better quality on your screen Dutch.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:10 pm

Kt Templar wrote:Hem stitch.

It's difficult to see if it has a hem stitch or not.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:18 pm

RCSignals wrote:
Kt Templar wrote:Hem stitch.
It's difficult to see if it has a hem stitch or not.

Perhaps you need some screen cleaner.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:24 pm

It's been distressed around the bottom edge sure, but a stitch isn't apparent in the photo. Am I saying there couldn't be one? No, I'm not.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:24 pm

it has a hem stitch.

and I believe it is a raiders jacket, maby an originl or maby a jacket provided after the production. there is absolutley no LC give away features at all besides the distressing.

look, see something familiar to this vintage leather concess jacket?

Pockets. flaps. piping. placement. collar. stormflap width and top corner.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:29 pm

Dear god! Look at that match with the lower left corner of the pocket!

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:41 pm

Kt Templar wrote:Dear god! Look at that match with the lower left corner of the pocket!

I KNOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wow !!!

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:41 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:it has a hem stitch.

and I believe it is a raiders jacket, maby an originl or maby a jacket provided after the production. there is absolutley no LC give away features at all besides the distressing.

look, see something familiar to this vintage leather concess jacket?

Pockets. flaps. piping. placement. collar. stormflap width and top corner.

Except that's not the same jacket as in Mac's photo.

I suspect that particular jacket in the Butterfields auction is a jacket provided after the production.

It looks more like a 1984 or so from Leather Concessionaires that Lee Keppler had.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:51 pm

RCSignals wrote:
Indiana Holt wrote:it has a hem stitch.

and I believe it is a raiders jacket, maby an originl or maby a jacket provided after the production. there is absolutley no LC give away features at all besides the distressing.

look, see something familiar to this vintage leather concess jacket?

Pockets. flaps. piping. placement. collar. stormflap width and top corner.

Except that's not the same jacket as in Mac's photo.

I suspect that particular jacket in the Butterfields auction is a jacket provided after the production.

It looks more like a 1984 or so from Leather Concessionaires that Lee Keppler had.

You have pictures of that???

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:00 pm

so now your saying that 2 possible raiders jackets had the LC distressing..yeah right.

it IS the same jacket. just look really close

I kinda know what im doing when I am working with detailed work....

moses · Post by **moses** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:07 pm

Ah yes - they both have exactly the same blue circles!! How did I miss that before??!

Sorry

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:15 pm

Seems pretty close, Holt.

Now, regarding the Bantu Wind...

RCSignals wrote:The dockside/still jacket does most resemble the jacket worn by TL for the truck drag sequence (as well as on horse back which I consider part of the sequence) The only discrepancy is the jacket worn in the dockside/still does appear to have a real back pleat, quite different from the jacket TL is wearing.

Maybe _ can clear this up:

viewtopic.php?p=289245#p289245

_ wrote:
agent5 wrote:
I examined number 2, which was in much worse shape - the forearms being torn and one patch pocket hanging on by the thinnest of threads.
Could this one be it? Hmmm?

That's the one.

Click to enlarge.

- Mac

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:18 pm

Dutch_jones wrote: You have pictures of that???

I'm surprised you don't Dutch

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested4.jpg

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested3.jpg

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested2.jpg

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested1.jpg

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:22 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:so now your saying that 2 possible raiders jackets had the LC distressing..yeah right.

it IS the same jacket. just look really close

I kinda know what im doing when I am working with detailed work....

Yes, and all your circling has done is show even more they aren't the same jackets.

If your photo is from the 1984 auction, remember there were two jackets in that auction. One was the one _ was able to examine in 2000.
I'm thinking that jacket you posted with the odd pocket shape is the one _ examined.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:26 pm

RCSignals wrote:
Dutch_jones wrote: You have pictures of that???
I'm surprised you don't Dutch

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested4.jpg

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested3.jpg

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested2.jpg

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested1.jpg

THANK YOU for posting those ! Never saw these ! Look at those pocket flaps ! perfection !!!

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:33 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:
RCSignals wrote:
Dutch_jones wrote: You have pictures of that???
I'm surprised you don't Dutch

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested4.jpg

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested3.jpg

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested2.jpg

http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested1.jpg
THANK YOU for posting those ! Never saw these ! Look at those pocket flaps ! perfection !!!

LOL Perfection?

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:35 pm

RCSignals wrote:
Indiana Holt wrote:so now your saying that 2 possible raiders jackets had the LC distressing..yeah right.

it IS the same jacket. just look really close

I kinda know what im doing when I am working with detailed work....

Yes, and all your circling has done is show even more they aren't the same jackets.

If your photo is from the 1984 auction, remember there were two jackets in that auction. One was the one _ was able to examine in 2000.
I'm thinking that jacket you posted with the odd pocket shape is the one _ examined.

I don't understand RC. The distress-marks are absolutely identical on those two jackets

I don't see how pointing out those similarities can show it isn't the same jacket

Could you explain?

Regards, Geert

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:42 pm

RC.

Whatever!

oh btw, and not only the distress mark but also the crease that goes under the pocket corner.

geez.. this is just like 'dont want to see it even though I see it but dont want to admit it because I know they are not the same jacket'. what do you actually know besides the identical distressing marks I pointed out?....

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:50 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:RC.

Whatever!

oh btw, and not only the distress mark but also the crease that goes under the pocket corner.

geez.. this is just like 'dont want to see it even though I see it but dont want to admit it because I know they are not the same jacket'. what do you actually know besides the identical distressing marks I pointed out?....

Holt I respect your abilities in being able to examine these things, but in this case I think you are mistaken. these are not 'identical'
Look at each photo in detail in something like Photoshop, zoom in etc. Then the differences become even more apparent. Even the leather surface is different between them

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:54 pm

yes spot lights on the jacket create shadows and makes the leather look different from what it really is. you know that right?............and different dummies to hold the jacket does quite a bit to the leather too.

the 'butterfield jacket' was pictured under proffesional lighting and a displayed on a way more maskuling dummie, so the appearance of the jacket looks way different

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:07 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:yes different lighting that make shadows and different dumies to hold the jacket does quite a bit to the leather.

Umm, Yeah that must be all it is

If it's one jacket or two it doesn't really matter that much. There are a few odd things about it isn't there.

Your premise about it being a jacket provided after the production is a good one.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:38 pm

Ok, back to the Bantu Wind, literally:

Look at the white part of the ship (below the bridge) and you will see rust stains going from the window downwards. Note the shape and compare. How big is this set that they built on a low budget movie and matched so perfectly? Did they have a dry dock, etc?

moses · Post by **moses** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:48 pm

I was thinking about the "giveaway" that the clouds don't move during the entire scene. I sat in a deckchair in my garden this afternoon and the clouds didn't move for over an hour! The Bantu scene is - what - 2 minutes? Maybe it was a studio, but I don't think the clouds are proof.

Regarding low yokes and the such. I've noticed with my jacket, that when standing, the yoke appears to be above the sleeve seam. In fact it isnt. I think the leather bunches in a particular way when I wear it. Perhaps something similar could be happening with one or two raiders jackets - some might actually have a higher yoke, some might not, but they generally look similar. I don't think we see Indy sitting hunched in the movie like in that dockside shot. Perhaps that's just how the yoke looks in that position?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:54 pm

Yojimbo Jones wrote:Ok, back to the Bantu Wind, literally:

Look at the white part of the ship (below the bridge) and you will see rust stains going from the window downwards. Note the shape and compare. How big is this set that they built on a low budget movie and matched so perfectly? Did they have a dry dock, etc?

Well I didn't want to post this at first but I did some asking around:

Hi. All the Bantu Wind stuff was filmed in France in La Rochelle as well as everything on the submarine.All the best. Karen

She was there in 1980. And she hasn't been in that many big pictures after that, so her recollection should be one of the most clear.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:05 pm

moses wrote:......

Regarding low yokes and the such. I've noticed with my jacket, that when standing, the yoke appears to be above the sleeve seam. In fact it isnt. I think the leather bunches in a particular way when I wear it. Perhaps something similar could be happening with one or two raiders jackets - some might actually have a higher yoke, some might not, but they generally look similar. I don't think we see Indy sitting hunched in the movie like in that dockside shot. Perhaps that's just how the yoke looks in that position?

WRT the yoke, it is more than just sleeve seam position, it's the actual depth of the yoke panel at the shoulder, and bottom seam across the back .

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:09 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:
Well I didn't want to post this at first but I did some asking around:
Hi. All the Bantu Wind stuff was filmed in France in La Rochelle as well as everything on the submarine.All the best. Karen
She was there in 1980. And she hasn't been in that many big pictures after that, so her recollection should be one of the most clear.

Good info Dutch, but would she know if they had to do a re shoot of some scene related to the Bantu on a set at Elstree?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:19 pm

RCSignals wrote:
Dutch_jones wrote:
Well I didn't want to post this at first but I did some asking around:
Hi. All the Bantu Wind stuff was filmed in France in La Rochelle as well as everything on the submarine.All the best. Karen
She was there in 1980. And she hasn't been in that many big pictures after that, so her recollection should be one of the most clear.
Good info Dutch, but would she know if they had to do a re shoot of some scene related to the Bantu on a set at Elstree?

I asked her if any of the bantu wind was shot on elstree, the answer was:

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:35 pm

Dutch_jones wrote: I asked her if any of the bantu wind was shot on elstree, the answer was:

WOW!

Thanks Dutch!

CM · Post by CM » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:08 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:
Pockets. flaps. piping. placement. collar. stormflap width and top corner.

If it's original, why is the leather not shruken lamb?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:50 pm

CM wrote:
Indiana Holt wrote:
Pockets. flaps. piping. placement. collar. stormflap width and top corner.

If it's original, why is the leather not shruken lamb?

Trouble maker?

you might also ask 'why is it so pristine?'

Have you looked at teh photos of Lee Keppler's mid '80s Leather concessionaires jacket?

CM · Post by CM » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:34 am

The only Keppler's I've seen was the archive jacket - made by Flight Suits now G&B. Different look - especially those pockets. The Kepplers look a bit more like TN's CS jacket.

This one certainly looks like a Wested. Did Keppler also have Wested make him some jackets?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:51 am

CM wrote:The only Keppler's I've seen was the archive jacket - made by Flight Suits now G&B. Different look - especially those pockets. The Kepplers look a bit more like TN's CS jacket.

This one certainly looks like a Wested. Did Keppler also have Wested make him some jackets?

Yeah it's not the same as the 'archive' jacket attributed to him that was used for LC and CS.

Those photos are his 'Raiders' jacket from the mid '80s. He had Leather Concessionaires make it for him. I don't know how many or if even if he sold any.
It looks like the Butterfield auction jacket, at least the one Holt posted, but not too much like the movie jackets in many respects.
Makes one wonder about the Butterfield auction jacket(s)

CairoIndy · Post by **CairoIndy** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:23 am

I found a pic of Martin Grace wearing his jacket.
I apologise for the quality,I can't scan the pic.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:29 am

Yeah heres a better pic:

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:09 am

Hard to make out any details, even in the higher res pic, but it certainly seems very similar from the front. Too bad there's not a picture of the back as it would (hopefully) go a long way to ending this particular debate.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:32 pm

The 1994 Butterfield auction description didn't actually attribute the jacket to Grace. It also didn't mention more than one jacket, even though we are told it included the Grace jacket and the jacket that _ was able to examine in 2000.

Jacket & FedoraItem #5561 Harrison Ford Hat from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" Paramount, 1981 Indiana Jones', Harrison Ford, trademark handmade deep brown 100% fine felt fur hat. Inside label on white lining, reads: Herbert Johnson 13. Old, Burlington st., London WIX ILA. Inside brown simulated leather banding has the initials IJ stenciled in gold. From the first film in the Indiana Jones trilogy. Together with photograph still and letter of authenticity. Size: 7-1/4 Estimate: $2,500/$3,500
Item #5562 Harrison Ford Jacket from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" Paramount, 1981 Deep brown kid leather bomber jacket with flat pockets with scalloped detailing on front left and right. Zipper closure, buckles on lower slits and inside right breast pocket. Jacket has intentional distress. Harrison Ford's leather jacket has become a trademark of the swashbuckling adverturer Indiana Jones in the Indiana Jones Trilogy. From the first film in the trilogy. Together with photograph still and letter of authenticity. Size: 38-40 Estimate: $6,000/$7,000

The jacket pictured is in too good condition to be the jacket _ examined (see previous posts in this thread)
The jacket pictured is also not the jacket sent to Tony. If the jacket sent to Tony was the Grace jacket, then the jacket in the auction was not Grace's. If the jacket pictured in the auction was Graces, it was not the same jacket sent to Tony.
The auction description wording is clever. It doesn't actually claim the jacket is a screen used Harrison Ford worn item, even though it says it is accompanied by a letter of authenticity. That letter may only say that the jacket is 'representative of'.
After a lot of reading and looking at photos, I think the auction jacket may be an early Leather Concessionaires like the ones made for Lee Keppler.

Also note in the auction description the jacket has an inside pocket on the right side.

This would also explain why Sebas early '90s wested looks similar to the auction jacket photo, but not so much like the jacket in the movie.

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:25 pm

So basically we agree that the Butterfield jacket is a red herring in the search for that bantu wind picture's jacket?

Regards, Geert

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:15 pm

gwyddion wrote:So basically we agree that the Butterfield jacket is a red herring in the search for that bantu wind picture's jacket?

Regards, Geert

I think so

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:54 am

RCSignals wrote:The jacket pictured is also not the jacket sent to Tony. If the jacket sent to Tony was the Grace jacket, then the jacket in the auction was not Grace's. If the jacket pictured in the auction was Graces, it was not the same jacket sent to Tony.

Just curious, but do you know this for sure? Are you going by how Tony's reproductions look compared with this one, or did you get a chance to see the jacket Tony borrowed?

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:26 am

Here's another shot of the Terry Leonard jacket.
It has a low yoke, same as the bantu and the truck scene

I don't think it's a Wilsons
I don't think it's the bantu, but could be

*edit*
forgot to say that image is edited (brightness) to reveal the details

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:38 am

and you can clearly see a pleat

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:30 am

Indiana Holt wrote:and you can clearly see a pleat

Agreed, but its already pushed out by lots of padding it seems or that jacket is skin tight!

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:32 am

I don't think he wears padding in that photo, do you?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:47 am

A bit yes.

But LOOK at this:

Terry's jacket is zipped up thats why it looks shorter. But those could be twins !

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:31 am

From the main IndyGear site:

Concerning the Raiders jacket:

Test fittings were done at Western Costumes with Tom Selleck and it became clear that there were functional problems with the Wilson’s jackets. Namely, the jacket would hang-up on the gun belt and the whip. Additionally, the leather used for the Wilson’s jackets did not lend itself well to artificial aging as the finish would flake off. Western Costumes stepped in and provided a mock-up jacket in cloth, the design of which included an open action pleat that resolved the pattern issues. It should be noted here that while it has been reported that Western Costumes provided finished leather jackets, this is not quite accurate.

Concerning the ToD jacket:

Neal Cooper had previously claimed to have submitted prototype jackets to Deborah Nadoolman for “Raiders.” While this could not be substantiated in any way beyond anecdotal recollections by David Hack, the design used by Cooper implied a remarkably detailed knowledge of the state of the jacket design at the time Deborah Nadoolman left Los Angeles and before Peter Botwright created his final design. The Cooper design had the short bi-swing pleat opening, smaller pockets, and slightly lower shoulder yoke design of the Western Costume mock-up. This mock-up was, at the time of “Temple of Doom” preproduction, in the property of Berman and Nathans along with unused jackets from Raiders. While no documentation or other corroboration could be obtained to prove Cooper’s claims of involvement in “Raiders,” this similarity to the unused mock-up implies some knowledge of its specific design.

If the above is true, then it follows that the Wilson jacket was made, deemed unusable because of design issues and distressing issues. Western Costumes retains the overall design of the Wilson but adds the action pleats. Cooper designs his submission off this mock-up. Later when he gets the Temple license, he comes reuses this design (or parts thereof) for the Temple jacket.

There are other explanations but this would seem to explain the similarities of the jackets in the context of the write-ups.

sebas · Post by **sebas** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:58 pm

sebas wrote:In my view, a key question to be answered is:

-Why are the patterns of the early (90s) Wested's and the Bantu Wind/Martin Grace jackets so similar?

Some refresher pics of the 90s Wested compared the Grace Jacket.

Have a better one, fellas!

Fellas, again, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the above question.
Thanks.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:56 pm

sebas wrote:
sebas wrote:In my view, a key question to be answered is:

-Why are the patterns of the early (90s) Wested's and the Bantu Wind/Martin Grace jackets so similar?

Some refresher pics of the 90s Wested compared the Grace Jacket.

Have a better one, fellas!
Fellas, again, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the above question.
Thanks.

First point out and confirm the Martin Grace jacket

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:58 pm

Satipo wrote:
RCSignals wrote:The jacket pictured is also not the jacket sent to Tony. If the jacket sent to Tony was the Grace jacket, then the jacket in the auction was not Grace's. If the jacket pictured in the auction was Graces, it was not the same jacket sent to Tony.
Just curious, but do you know this for sure? Are you going by how Tony's reproductions look compared with this one, or did you get a chance to see the jacket Tony borrowed?

I wouldn't have said it otherwise