The Bantu Wind discussions
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Look at the pic I posted and mac's the jacket has the same distressing pattern around the pocket flap and the same kind of collar. therefore it is a Raiders jacket !!
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Is the jacket in Mac's post the Butterfield auction from 1984? If it is it would be a Raiders stunt jacket, according to this old writing by _ either the Grace jacket or the jacket he studied in 2000 and attributed to Terry Leonard.
"As a result, all but five original Raiders jackets have been lost. Those that survived? The hero jacket resides in George Lucas’ office at Skywalker Ranch. Vic Armstrong and Terry Leonard have their copies from the third order placed with Leather Concessionaires. Two other jackets made their way to Paramount – one was Martin Grace’s jacket from the third order and the other was a jacket in marginal condition that had Leonard’s name written in its lining. Reportedly, this last jacket had been pulled aside in order to fit a Wilson’s jacket for Leonard to wear during the truck dragging gag in Tunisia. The Grace jacket and the “marginal” Leonard jacket (presumably the only surviving jacket from the second order placed with Leather Concessionaires) were auctioned for charity in 1984 by Butterfields in Los Angeles. Grace’s jacket is lost, however the jacket with Leonard’s name in the lining was located and examined in August of 2000 and was the basis for the Flight Suits Expedition as well as having contributed to the ultimate specifications for Todd Coyle’s designs in 2007"
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
the photo you posted must be of better quality on your screen Dutch.Dutch_jones wrote:Look at the pic I posted and mac's the jacket has the same distressing pattern around the pocket flap and the same kind of collar. therefore it is a Raiders jacket !!
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
It's difficult to see if it has a hem stitch or not.Kt Templar wrote:Hem stitch.
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Perhaps you need some screen cleaner.RCSignals wrote:It's difficult to see if it has a hem stitch or not.Kt Templar wrote:Hem stitch.
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
It's been distressed around the bottom edge sure, but a stitch isn't apparent in the photo. Am I saying there couldn't be one? No, I'm not.
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
it has a hem stitch.
and I believe it is a raiders jacket, maby an originl or maby a jacket provided after the production. there is absolutley no LC give away features at all besides the distressing.
look, see something familiar to this vintage leather concess jacket?
Pockets. flaps. piping. placement. collar. stormflap width and top corner.
and I believe it is a raiders jacket, maby an originl or maby a jacket provided after the production. there is absolutley no LC give away features at all besides the distressing.
look, see something familiar to this vintage leather concess jacket?
Pockets. flaps. piping. placement. collar. stormflap width and top corner.
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Dear god! Look at that match with the lower left corner of the pocket!
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
I KNOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Kt Templar wrote:Dear god! Look at that match with the lower left corner of the pocket!
wow !!!
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Except that's not the same jacket as in Mac's photo.Indiana Holt wrote:it has a hem stitch.
and I believe it is a raiders jacket, maby an originl or maby a jacket provided after the production. there is absolutley no LC give away features at all besides the distressing.
look, see something familiar to this vintage leather concess jacket?
Pockets. flaps. piping. placement. collar. stormflap width and top corner.
I suspect that particular jacket in the Butterfields auction is a jacket provided after the production.
It looks more like a 1984 or so from Leather Concessionaires that Lee Keppler had.
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
You have pictures of that???RCSignals wrote:Except that's not the same jacket as in Mac's photo.Indiana Holt wrote:it has a hem stitch.
and I believe it is a raiders jacket, maby an originl or maby a jacket provided after the production. there is absolutley no LC give away features at all besides the distressing.
look, see something familiar to this vintage leather concess jacket?
Pockets. flaps. piping. placement. collar. stormflap width and top corner.
I suspect that particular jacket in the Butterfields auction is a jacket provided after the production.
It looks more like a 1984 or so from Leather Concessionaires that Lee Keppler had.
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
so now your saying that 2 possible raiders jackets had the LC distressing..yeah right.
it IS the same jacket. just look really close
I kinda know what im doing when I am working with detailed work....
it IS the same jacket. just look really close
I kinda know what im doing when I am working with detailed work....
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Ah yes - they both have exactly the same blue circles!! How did I miss that before??!
Sorry
Sorry
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Seems pretty close, Holt.
Now, regarding the Bantu Wind...
viewtopic.php?p=289245#p289245
Click to enlarge.
- Mac
Now, regarding the Bantu Wind...
Maybe _ can clear this up:RCSignals wrote:The dockside/still jacket does most resemble the jacket worn by TL for the truck drag sequence (as well as on horse back which I consider part of the sequence) The only discrepancy is the jacket worn in the dockside/still does appear to have a real back pleat, quite different from the jacket TL is wearing.
viewtopic.php?p=289245#p289245
_ wrote:That's the one.agent5 wrote:Could this one be it? Hmmm?I examined number 2, which was in much worse shape - the forearms being torn and one patch pocket hanging on by the thinnest of threads.
Click to enlarge.
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
I'm surprised you don't DutchDutch_jones wrote: You have pictures of that???
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested4.jpg
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested3.jpg
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested2.jpg
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested1.jpg
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Yes, and all your circling has done is show even more they aren't the same jackets.Indiana Holt wrote:so now your saying that 2 possible raiders jackets had the LC distressing..yeah right.
it IS the same jacket. just look really close
I kinda know what im doing when I am working with detailed work....
If your photo is from the 1984 auction, remember there were two jackets in that auction. One was the one _ was able to examine in 2000.
I'm thinking that jacket you posted with the odd pocket shape is the one _ examined.
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
THANK YOU for posting those ! Never saw these ! Look at those pocket flaps ! perfection !!!RCSignals wrote:I'm surprised you don't DutchDutch_jones wrote: You have pictures of that???
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested4.jpg
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested3.jpg
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested2.jpg
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested1.jpg
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Dutch_jones wrote:THANK YOU for posting those ! Never saw these ! Look at those pocket flaps ! perfection !!!RCSignals wrote:I'm surprised you don't DutchDutch_jones wrote: You have pictures of that???
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested4.jpg
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested3.jpg
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested2.jpg
http://s291.photobucket.com/albums/ll30 ... ested1.jpg
LOL Perfection?
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
I don't understand RC. The distress-marks are absolutely identical on those two jackets I don't see how pointing out those similarities can show it isn't the same jacket Could you explain?RCSignals wrote:Yes, and all your circling has done is show even more they aren't the same jackets.Indiana Holt wrote:so now your saying that 2 possible raiders jackets had the LC distressing..yeah right.
it IS the same jacket. just look really close
I kinda know what im doing when I am working with detailed work....
If your photo is from the 1984 auction, remember there were two jackets in that auction. One was the one _ was able to examine in 2000.
I'm thinking that jacket you posted with the odd pocket shape is the one _ examined.
Regards, Geert
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
RC.
Whatever!
oh btw, and not only the distress mark but also the crease that goes under the pocket corner.
geez.. this is just like 'dont want to see it even though I see it but dont want to admit it because I know they are not the same jacket'. what do you actually know besides the identical distressing marks I pointed out?....
Whatever!
oh btw, and not only the distress mark but also the crease that goes under the pocket corner.
geez.. this is just like 'dont want to see it even though I see it but dont want to admit it because I know they are not the same jacket'. what do you actually know besides the identical distressing marks I pointed out?....
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Holt I respect your abilities in being able to examine these things, but in this case I think you are mistaken. these are not 'identical'Indiana Holt wrote:RC.
Whatever!
oh btw, and not only the distress mark but also the crease that goes under the pocket corner.
geez.. this is just like 'dont want to see it even though I see it but dont want to admit it because I know they are not the same jacket'. what do you actually know besides the identical distressing marks I pointed out?....
Look at each photo in detail in something like Photoshop, zoom in etc. Then the differences become even more apparent. Even the leather surface is different between them
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
yes spot lights on the jacket create shadows and makes the leather look different from what it really is. you know that right?............and different dummies to hold the jacket does quite a bit to the leather too.
the 'butterfield jacket' was pictured under proffesional lighting and a displayed on a way more maskuling dummie, so the appearance of the jacket looks way different
the 'butterfield jacket' was pictured under proffesional lighting and a displayed on a way more maskuling dummie, so the appearance of the jacket looks way different
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Umm, Yeah that must be all it isIndiana Holt wrote:yes different lighting that make shadows and different dumies to hold the jacket does quite a bit to the leather.
If it's one jacket or two it doesn't really matter that much. There are a few odd things about it isn't there.
Your premise about it being a jacket provided after the production is a good one.
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Ok, back to the Bantu Wind, literally:
Look at the white part of the ship (below the bridge) and you will see rust stains going from the window downwards. Note the shape and compare. How big is this set that they built on a low budget movie and matched so perfectly? Did they have a dry dock, etc?
Look at the white part of the ship (below the bridge) and you will see rust stains going from the window downwards. Note the shape and compare. How big is this set that they built on a low budget movie and matched so perfectly? Did they have a dry dock, etc?
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
I was thinking about the "giveaway" that the clouds don't move during the entire scene. I sat in a deckchair in my garden this afternoon and the clouds didn't move for over an hour! The Bantu scene is - what - 2 minutes? Maybe it was a studio, but I don't think the clouds are proof.
Regarding low yokes and the such. I've noticed with my jacket, that when standing, the yoke appears to be above the sleeve seam. In fact it isnt. I think the leather bunches in a particular way when I wear it. Perhaps something similar could be happening with one or two raiders jackets - some might actually have a higher yoke, some might not, but they generally look similar. I don't think we see Indy sitting hunched in the movie like in that dockside shot. Perhaps that's just how the yoke looks in that position?
Regarding low yokes and the such. I've noticed with my jacket, that when standing, the yoke appears to be above the sleeve seam. In fact it isnt. I think the leather bunches in a particular way when I wear it. Perhaps something similar could be happening with one or two raiders jackets - some might actually have a higher yoke, some might not, but they generally look similar. I don't think we see Indy sitting hunched in the movie like in that dockside shot. Perhaps that's just how the yoke looks in that position?
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Well I didn't want to post this at first but I did some asking around:Yojimbo Jones wrote:Ok, back to the Bantu Wind, literally:
Look at the white part of the ship (below the bridge) and you will see rust stains going from the window downwards. Note the shape and compare. How big is this set that they built on a low budget movie and matched so perfectly? Did they have a dry dock, etc?
She was there in 1980. And she hasn't been in that many big pictures after that, so her recollection should be one of the most clear.Hi. All the Bantu Wind stuff was filmed in France in La Rochelle as well as everything on the submarine.All the best. Karen
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
WRT the yoke, it is more than just sleeve seam position, it's the actual depth of the yoke panel at the shoulder, and bottom seam across the back .moses wrote:......
Regarding low yokes and the such. I've noticed with my jacket, that when standing, the yoke appears to be above the sleeve seam. In fact it isnt. I think the leather bunches in a particular way when I wear it. Perhaps something similar could be happening with one or two raiders jackets - some might actually have a higher yoke, some might not, but they generally look similar. I don't think we see Indy sitting hunched in the movie like in that dockside shot. Perhaps that's just how the yoke looks in that position?
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Good info Dutch, but would she know if they had to do a re shoot of some scene related to the Bantu on a set at Elstree?Dutch_jones wrote:
Well I didn't want to post this at first but I did some asking around:She was there in 1980. And she hasn't been in that many big pictures after that, so her recollection should be one of the most clear.Hi. All the Bantu Wind stuff was filmed in France in La Rochelle as well as everything on the submarine.All the best. Karen
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
I asked her if any of the bantu wind was shot on elstree, the answer was:RCSignals wrote:Good info Dutch, but would she know if they had to do a re shoot of some scene related to the Bantu on a set at Elstree?Dutch_jones wrote:
Well I didn't want to post this at first but I did some asking around:She was there in 1980. And she hasn't been in that many big pictures after that, so her recollection should be one of the most clear.Hi. All the Bantu Wind stuff was filmed in France in La Rochelle as well as everything on the submarine.All the best. Karen
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Dutch_jones wrote: I asked her if any of the bantu wind was shot on elstree, the answer was:
WOW! Thanks Dutch!
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
If it's original, why is the leather not shruken lamb?Indiana Holt wrote:
Pockets. flaps. piping. placement. collar. stormflap width and top corner.
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Trouble maker?CM wrote:If it's original, why is the leather not shruken lamb?Indiana Holt wrote:
Pockets. flaps. piping. placement. collar. stormflap width and top corner.
you might also ask 'why is it so pristine?'
Have you looked at teh photos of Lee Keppler's mid '80s Leather concessionaires jacket?
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
The only Keppler's I've seen was the archive jacket - made by Flight Suits now G&B. Different look - especially those pockets. The Kepplers look a bit more like TN's CS jacket.
This one certainly looks like a Wested. Did Keppler also have Wested make him some jackets?
This one certainly looks like a Wested. Did Keppler also have Wested make him some jackets?
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Yeah it's not the same as the 'archive' jacket attributed to him that was used for LC and CS.CM wrote:The only Keppler's I've seen was the archive jacket - made by Flight Suits now G&B. Different look - especially those pockets. The Kepplers look a bit more like TN's CS jacket.
This one certainly looks like a Wested. Did Keppler also have Wested make him some jackets?
Those photos are his 'Raiders' jacket from the mid '80s. He had Leather Concessionaires make it for him. I don't know how many or if even if he sold any.
It looks like the Butterfield auction jacket, at least the one Holt posted, but not too much like the movie jackets in many respects.
Makes one wonder about the Butterfield auction jacket(s)
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
I found a pic of Martin Grace wearing his jacket.
I apologise for the quality,I can't scan the pic.
I apologise for the quality,I can't scan the pic.
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Yeah heres a better pic:
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Hard to make out any details, even in the higher res pic, but it certainly seems very similar from the front. Too bad there's not a picture of the back as it would (hopefully) go a long way to ending this particular debate.
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
The 1994 Butterfield auction description didn't actually attribute the jacket to Grace. It also didn't mention more than one jacket, even though we are told it included the Grace jacket and the jacket that _ was able to examine in 2000.
The jacket pictured is also not the jacket sent to Tony. If the jacket sent to Tony was the Grace jacket, then the jacket in the auction was not Grace's. If the jacket pictured in the auction was Graces, it was not the same jacket sent to Tony.
The auction description wording is clever. It doesn't actually claim the jacket is a screen used Harrison Ford worn item, even though it says it is accompanied by a letter of authenticity. That letter may only say that the jacket is 'representative of'.
After a lot of reading and looking at photos, I think the auction jacket may be an early Leather Concessionaires like the ones made for Lee Keppler.
Also note in the auction description the jacket has an inside pocket on the right side.
This would also explain why Sebas early '90s wested looks similar to the auction jacket photo, but not so much like the jacket in the movie.
The jacket pictured is in too good condition to be the jacket _ examined (see previous posts in this thread)
Jacket & FedoraItem #5561 Harrison Ford Hat from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" Paramount, 1981 Indiana Jones', Harrison Ford, trademark handmade deep brown 100% fine felt fur hat. Inside label on white lining, reads: Herbert Johnson 13. Old, Burlington st., London WIX ILA. Inside brown simulated leather banding has the initials IJ stenciled in gold. From the first film in the Indiana Jones trilogy. Together with photograph still and letter of authenticity. Size: 7-1/4 Estimate: $2,500/$3,500
Item #5562 Harrison Ford Jacket from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" Paramount, 1981 Deep brown kid leather bomber jacket with flat pockets with scalloped detailing on front left and right. Zipper closure, buckles on lower slits and inside right breast pocket. Jacket has intentional distress. Harrison Ford's leather jacket has become a trademark of the swashbuckling adverturer Indiana Jones in the Indiana Jones Trilogy. From the first film in the trilogy. Together with photograph still and letter of authenticity. Size: 38-40 Estimate: $6,000/$7,000
The jacket pictured is also not the jacket sent to Tony. If the jacket sent to Tony was the Grace jacket, then the jacket in the auction was not Grace's. If the jacket pictured in the auction was Graces, it was not the same jacket sent to Tony.
The auction description wording is clever. It doesn't actually claim the jacket is a screen used Harrison Ford worn item, even though it says it is accompanied by a letter of authenticity. That letter may only say that the jacket is 'representative of'.
After a lot of reading and looking at photos, I think the auction jacket may be an early Leather Concessionaires like the ones made for Lee Keppler.
Also note in the auction description the jacket has an inside pocket on the right side.
This would also explain why Sebas early '90s wested looks similar to the auction jacket photo, but not so much like the jacket in the movie.
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
So basically we agree that the Butterfield jacket is a red herring in the search for that bantu wind picture's jacket?
Regards, Geert
Regards, Geert
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
I think sogwyddion wrote:So basically we agree that the Butterfield jacket is a red herring in the search for that bantu wind picture's jacket?
Regards, Geert
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Just curious, but do you know this for sure? Are you going by how Tony's reproductions look compared with this one, or did you get a chance to see the jacket Tony borrowed?RCSignals wrote:The jacket pictured is also not the jacket sent to Tony. If the jacket sent to Tony was the Grace jacket, then the jacket in the auction was not Grace's. If the jacket pictured in the auction was Graces, it was not the same jacket sent to Tony.
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Here's another shot of the Terry Leonard jacket.
It has a low yoke, same as the bantu and the truck scene
I don't think it's a Wilsons
I don't think it's the bantu, but could be
*edit*
forgot to say that image is edited (brightness) to reveal the details
It has a low yoke, same as the bantu and the truck scene
I don't think it's a Wilsons
I don't think it's the bantu, but could be
*edit*
forgot to say that image is edited (brightness) to reveal the details
Last edited by PLATON on Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
and you can clearly see a pleat
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Agreed, but its already pushed out by lots of padding it seems or that jacket is skin tight!Indiana Holt wrote:and you can clearly see a pleat
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
I don't think he wears padding in that photo, do you?
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
A bit yes.
But LOOK at this:
Terry's jacket is zipped up thats why it looks shorter. But those could be twins !
But LOOK at this:
Terry's jacket is zipped up thats why it looks shorter. But those could be twins !
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
From the main IndyGear site:
Concerning the Raiders jacket:
There are other explanations but this would seem to explain the similarities of the jackets in the context of the write-ups.
Concerning the Raiders jacket:
Concerning the ToD jacket:Test fittings were done at Western Costumes with Tom Selleck and it became clear that there were functional problems with the Wilson’s jackets. Namely, the jacket would hang-up on the gun belt and the whip. Additionally, the leather used for the Wilson’s jackets did not lend itself well to artificial aging as the finish would flake off. Western Costumes stepped in and provided a mock-up jacket in cloth, the design of which included an open action pleat that resolved the pattern issues. It should be noted here that while it has been reported that Western Costumes provided finished leather jackets, this is not quite accurate.
If the above is true, then it follows that the Wilson jacket was made, deemed unusable because of design issues and distressing issues. Western Costumes retains the overall design of the Wilson but adds the action pleats. Cooper designs his submission off this mock-up. Later when he gets the Temple license, he comes reuses this design (or parts thereof) for the Temple jacket.Neal Cooper had previously claimed to have submitted prototype jackets to Deborah Nadoolman for “Raiders.” While this could not be substantiated in any way beyond anecdotal recollections by David Hack, the design used by Cooper implied a remarkably detailed knowledge of the state of the jacket design at the time Deborah Nadoolman left Los Angeles and before Peter Botwright created his final design. The Cooper design had the short bi-swing pleat opening, smaller pockets, and slightly lower shoulder yoke design of the Western Costume mock-up. This mock-up was, at the time of “Temple of Doom” preproduction, in the property of Berman and Nathans along with unused jackets from Raiders. While no documentation or other corroboration could be obtained to prove Cooper’s claims of involvement in “Raiders,” this similarity to the unused mock-up implies some knowledge of its specific design.
There are other explanations but this would seem to explain the similarities of the jackets in the context of the write-ups.
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
Fellas, again, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the above question.sebas wrote:In my view, a key question to be answered is:
-Why are the patterns of the early (90s) Wested's and the Bantu Wind/Martin Grace jackets so similar?
Some refresher pics of the 90s Wested compared the Grace Jacket.
Have a better one, fellas!
Thanks.
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Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
First point out and confirm the Martin Grace jacketsebas wrote:Fellas, again, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the above question.sebas wrote:In my view, a key question to be answered is:
-Why are the patterns of the early (90s) Wested's and the Bantu Wind/Martin Grace jackets so similar?
Some refresher pics of the 90s Wested compared the Grace Jacket.
Have a better one, fellas!
Thanks.
-
- Legendary Adventurer
- Posts: 3665
- Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:32 pm
- Location: Twin Galaxies
Re: I guess you didn't know this - The Bantu Wind jacket
I wouldn't have said it otherwiseSatipo wrote:Just curious, but do you know this for sure? Are you going by how Tony's reproductions look compared with this one, or did you get a chance to see the jacket Tony borrowed?RCSignals wrote:The jacket pictured is also not the jacket sent to Tony. If the jacket sent to Tony was the Grace jacket, then the jacket in the auction was not Grace's. If the jacket pictured in the auction was Graces, it was not the same jacket sent to Tony.