Adventurebilt & Penman: Comprehensive Review and Comparison

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:10 pm

A proper comparison of the Adventurebilt and Penman hats has not been done so I took it upon myself to write one. Photographs will follow shortly, though we all know what each hat looks like.

The felt body of a hat is, in my opinion, the most important part of a hat. It's what makes or breaks a hat. A hat with a great looking ribbon and comfortable sweatband is worth nothing if it does not have a good felt body to keep it together. Both the AB and the Penman use the highest quality beaver fur felt. Having taken both through rain storms and wearing them consistantly throughout the hot and humid climate experienced in Miami year round, I can attest to the durability of these hats. Neither has shrunken or tapered. Very few hats will hold up the way these two have. Both Steve and John source their felt from the same felter. You cannot find better felt today than what is being used by these two hatters.

The second most obvious part of a hat is the ribbon. Again, John and Steve use the same ribbon for their hats. Adventurebilt was previously the only hat company to use the original Raiders ribbon. John was able to source his ribbon from the same manufacturer. Now, neither Steve nor John will tell you where they source their ribbon but comparing the two shows that they are, in fact, identical. This is one of the more elusive parts of the Indy hat. The ribbon is very unique in the way it reacts to light, appearing black natural light and very dark brown in artificial lighting. Both of these ribbons react in the same way. The stiching on the ribbon is near invisible but upon close inspection, the tacking can be seen at the very base of each hat. This prevents the ribbon from riding up on the hat and is a sign of a very dedicated hatter.

The bow, though part of the ribbon, I feel requires its own review and comparison. Each hatter adds his own signature flair his hat. This accounts for the different looks we see on each hat available as every hatter has his own vision of what the hat is. The AB and Penman bows are very, very similar. Both have the defined "V" or "Y" that is clearly seen on the screen used hats. John Penman tends to pull his bows and ribbon a bit tighter than Steve. I prefer this, but it is just for aesthetic purposes and does not add or detract from the quality of the hat. The stitching on the bow is slightly different and is, again, due to each hatters vision of the iconic bow, but the differences are very subtle.

Sweatbands are very important, to me at least, as it is the one of two parts of the hat that will come in contact with your body. John uses vegitable tanned sheepskin while Steve uses a chocolate brown (I believe these are cowhide) sweat. In this area, the Penman is the clear winner. The Penman sweatband is one of the softest sweatbands I have ever had the pleasure of placing on my head. And, it conforms to the exact shape of the head much faster than the AB. Neither sweatband really shrinks up very much, as is customary with most sweats. The sweat installation is top notch on both. Steve uses an "X" stitching on hissweats while John employs a zig-zag stitching. I am not sure if one is more durable than the other, but both look like they were machine sewn.

The liner in both hats are sewn in, which looks much nicer than the standard dab of glue that most hats use. There seems to be a double stitching on the Penman whichleads me to believe that the liner is a bit more secure than the AB. The liner on the AB, however, is much nicer than that on the Penman. The Penman liner is white satin with the Penman logo printed in gold. The AB liner is white satin as well but has the AB logo embroidered. I cannot tell if one liner breathes better than the other so neither differs in that respect.

The pounce is what really seperates the men from the boys, in my opinion. Both John and Steve spend countless hours pouncing each and every one of their hats. The AB has a unique pounce in that the crown has a velvet finish while the brim has a silk finish. Both my ABs have this pounce job. The Penman has, in my opinion, a more consistant pounce, with the crown and brim having a velvet finish. My black Penman, however, has a silk finish on both the crown and brim. I prefer the consistant pounce on the Penman, but do not take that as the AB having a bad pounce as this is purely preference.

To say that there is one clear winner is a lie. It really all boils down to personal taste and preference. Some folks will prefer Steve's work while others will prefer John's. Whichever way you go, however, you simply cannot go wrong.

Dave

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:30 pm

Excellent and well balanced comparison, old friend!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:34 pm

I wanted to be that way, Mark. I want folks to draw their own conclusions from what I have to say...or write. Everyone knows who I like and there is no need to clutter this up with that. Photographic comparisons will come along shortly.

Dave

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:40 pm

Tundrarider wrote: I am planning on purchasing a LC fedora and am teetering between the Penman, AB and the Peters Bros Michaelson.
Michael

Michael, if I may ask, are you considering a rabbit AB, rabbit Penman, or a PBBM? That would be the only honest comparison. Though I'm biased toward the PBBM (

), keep in mind it's a rabbit fur felt hat. The AB and the Penman are beaver felts, so you're comparing Cadillac's against a Buick. All great cars, but there's definitely a difference.

Just curious.

Regards! Michaelson

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:48 pm

Michaelson wrote:
Tundrarider wrote: I am planning on purchasing a LC fedora and am teetering between the Penman, AB and the Peters Bros Michaelson.
Michael
Michael, if I may ask, are you considering a rabbit AB, rabbit Penman, or a PBBM? That would be the only honest comparison. Though I'm biased toward the PBBM ( ), keep in mind it's a rabbit fur felt hat. The AB and the Penman are beaver felts, so you're comparing Cadillac's against a Buick. All great cars, but there's definitely a difference.

Just curious.

Regards! Michaelson

Just wanted to update you Michaelson. I do offer a rabbit line as well.

JC1972 · Post by **JC1972** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:53 pm

Great review Dave!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:11 pm

BendingOak wrote: Just wanted to update you Michaelson. I do offer a rabbit line as well.

I figured you did, John, and knew that Steve was planning on getting back into the field, but since the comparison above was done regarding two beaver hats, I was a bit puzzled how the PBBM got into the plan....though, as I said, I think it's a GREAT item to consider!

(wish I got royalities.

)

Regards! Michaelson

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:16 pm

Yes. All the Penman and AB hats that I own are beaver. I cannot comment on either rabbit hat but if they are crafted by John and Steve they will not dissapoint!

Dave

theinterchange · Post by **theinterchange** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:05 pm

A thoughtful well written review of both hats Dave. I look forward to the photo comparison!

Now, you make me want to buy both and see for myself!

Randy

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:24 pm

Good work Dave! Oh, my sweats are sheepskin, from F and T. They put some sizing in the leather, whereas John's are natural, which tend to be softer. I was about to change to the source John uses now when we got the Indy 4 deal. So, I am stuck, if screen accuracy is desired. I do like John's sweats better than my own, but the best is the roohide from Marc, or it is my preference. But, at 40 bucks (his cost) I don't think I will ever use roohide!!! Afterall, his hats are "deluxe".

On the pouncing, I have a load of bodies that were not pre pounced, as the feltmaker apparently forgot to do it!! So, this set of bodies are a bit less smooth than what I normally make. I seldom use fine grits on my bodies, as it is not needed, but on this run, I have to use 1200 grit just to get them smooth! Generally I stop at 400, as this gives me the finish that I personally like. Each run of bodies can vary, and you have to be flexible, and know what to do in the finishing department. And even then, you will eventually get a run in that you have to "learn" how to get a decent finish. Some bodies for some reason will mottle, with the pounce. Some won't. I have yet to figure out as to why. Some of the Indy 4 hats had a bit of mottle in them, but Bernie liked it, as it made the hat look distressed, and he was all about that, on some of those hats. I only recently found a product that would get rid of 90 per cent of the mottle.

I think John uses a lock stitch when he sews in his liner, just like Marc. While I just use the traditional stitch. But wheras most vintage hats only have around 6 stitches, I use alot more. I don't think you have to worry about the liners coming loose though. The stitches are protected by the sweatband. I have never had one to come loose, to date. And it sure beats that darn hot glue!! I hate the stuff, as in a reblock, it always tears chunks out of the felt on the inside of the hat. Not good, as these can eventually become holes, especially in rabbit hats.

Good review, and it shows John is doing a great job. It took me alot longer to catch on than it did him. Oh, almost forgot. I have never pounced the brim as much as I do the crown. Just a habit that got started when I was learning, and used that book, Scientific Hatmaking, written in 1919. The master hatter said it was not needed, and I basically use that book as a bible. But, I can see how some folks would want the exact same finish. But with that said, generally my brims are just like the crowns. Just not with this run. For some reason, this run is hard to get a great finish on. Even with 1200 grit. I think I should do like Brad, and shave the bodies!! My luck is I would cut one and waste a body.

Oh Michaelson. Your camel hat was an excellent run of felt by the way. So, it will be velvet on top and on bottom! Fedora

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:27 pm

Oh Michaelson. Your camel hat was an excellent run of felt by the way. So, it will be velvet on top and on bottom! Fedora

$\:D/$ $\:D/$ $\:D/$ $\:D/$ $\:D/$

Uh,

HIGH regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:31 pm

Ah. Makes sense.

More advice?

Buy one of each!

Regards! Michaelson

Tremolo · Post by **Tremolo** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:41 pm

I think for a great, or better more than great LC fedora you can´t go wrong with one of these.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:56 pm

Thanks for stopping in Steve. I figured as much about the pounce. You told me that run of felt was giving you a headache. By the way. There is a little thank you on its way to you right now for the great service you gave me with these hats.

Oh, I didn't even mention customer service in this!

Both John and Steve have great customer service. John spends more time with me when I have a hat order coming up, but we must all realize that Steve has very little time these days. That being said, I have never had an e-mail, phone call, or PM go unanswered by Steve. He cares just as much as John does about his customers.

Dave

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:59 pm

They put some sizing in the leather, whereas John's are natural, which tend to be softer. I was about to change to the source John uses now when we got the Indy 4 deal. So, I am stuck, if screen accuracy is desired. I do like John's sweats better than my own, but the best is the roohide from Marc, or it is my preference. But, at 40 bucks (his cost) I don't think I will ever use roohide!!! Afterall, his hats are "deluxe".

Is there no way to maybe order both so people can choose between the authentic sweat and the nicer ones? Because, no offense, Steve, but the sweat band right now is the achilles heel of the AB - when you started out, you had these REALLY nice roan sweat bands which I loved, but on the CS hat, I find I'm really only luke-warm on the new type of sweat. I wouldn't change it for the world (it is SA after all), but I think for non-CS hats, the roan is far superior. -M

jacksdad · Post by **jacksdad** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:30 pm

wow great review

very informative.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:55 pm

Dave you are such a cool hat guy! I want to be just like you when I grow up!

In all seriousness though, GREAT review.

Makes me psyched to get my Penman in the next few months. So basically, although there are subtle differences AB's and Penman's are on a similar level. Its a great time to be a hat geek! $\:D/$

Travis

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:13 pm

Come on now, Travis. You are a very cool guy. Plus, you'd have to age backwards to be like me.

And thank you to everyone that has enjoyed this review and comparison. Tomorrow, I will take some pictures of a Penman and an AB and hope to focus on the areas I touched upon in the first post.

Dave

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:22 pm

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:27 pm

See, now we've scared him away! From now on I'll just

.

Dave

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:52 am

Is there no way to maybe order both so people can choose between the authentic sweat and the nicer ones? Because, no offense, Steve, but the sweat band right now is the achilles heel of the AB - when you started out, you had these REALLY nice roan sweat bands which I loved, but on the CS hat, I find I'm really only luke-warm on the new type of sweat. I wouldn't change it for the world (it is SA after all), but I think for non-CS hats, the roan is far superior. -M

I am somewhat puzzled.

The only difference in the CS sweat and the antique roan color that I still use in the Raider fedoras.....is the color! One is called antique roan, and the other is Chocolate brown. Both use the same sheepskin. So, kinda confused here. It's not like I am using split cowhide like the Christy and HJ come with today. And my sweats are not cheap, price wise. The reeding tape and reed are great, the attaching seam of the tape to the leather is very good. The only difference between mine, and some others is the leather is stiffer, which I like, because the leather softens up if you wear the hat often. And you can always specify the antique roan color if you want it in a CS hat. Remember, the Raiders fedora gets this antique color anyways.

If you look at any vintage hat, you will find the leathers are not soft in those hats. You seldom find soft leather in any vintage hat. Even Marc's very expensive roo hide sweats are not soft. So, kinda confused here. Clear me up.

For everyone's info, no sweatbands are chrome tanned. Reason? Allergies. Hard to believe since most have the blue backside which is usually associated with chrome tanning. I found out about the non chrome tanned sweats from John's supplier. The industry does not use it. Fedora

kiltie · Post by **kiltie** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:13 am

I expressed the same feeling about the AB sweatband in my review and comparison. Last week, I wore an Adventurebilt for the longest and most consistant period of time since owning one; about six to eight hours a day for four days. The hat felt, as you might imagine, more and more natural the more I wore ( wear ) it. But at the end of each day, even though I had no complaints about comfort, I'd wipe the sweatband down and see that sweat and think, "why?"
But that's just it - it was SEEING the sweatband: there were no practical issues at all. Maybe it's the way it wrinkles up when it's bent; vintage and a lot of the modern hats we're used to, regardless of the quality, don't do that. Also, I think, due to it's popularity, a LOT of posters on this forum have grown accustom to the quality and feel of the Akubra sweatbands. The Akubra sweats are kind of a touchstone both in quality hats and, peculiar to this forum, Indy hats ( Federation line ). The AB looks so paradoxically rugged and luxurious from the outside, and the liner is so nice, that when you get a blemish ( ie, wrinkle ) in the sweat, you're thinking: "What tha....?" Because you're not used to seeing that in your other hats.
So, ultimately, calling the sweatband the Adventurebilt's weakest point has largely become a matter of asthetics, to me. But, as we all know, looks are a BIG portion of perception. I still look at it an think: "Com'on..." But once it's on my head, it's as comfortable as ( almost

)* any hat I own. I don't think anyone actually believes the sweat is a lesser component. Once it gets all over broken in, it actually matches the rest of the hat better.**
That's it, to me. And I think that may be it for some, if not many others. The look, and therefore the perception. Since I've come to this realization, I've beecome more neutral in my opinion of the AB sweat, and I think that as it gets even more broken in over time, that needle may point more to "positive".

* compared to a particular vintage Stetson
** Due to the cost and wait time of the AB, I think a lot of people are reluctant to let loose and really let these hats "conform"; get out and sweat in them, etc... They want them to stay perfect forever ( can you blame them? ), so a wrinkle gets a

, whereas, if you'd just get the whole shebang broken in, it'd appear more natural.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:19 am

Well, speaking about longevity, and me owning some of the very first production Akubra Feds produced, and the very first AB's ever made, I can say that over a long period of time and wear, the sweats in the Akubra's eventually cracked from wear and perspiration. So far, none of my AB sweats have cracked.

Wrinkled? yes. Cracked? No.

Regards! Michaelson

kiltie · Post by **kiltie** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:40 am

But you see where I'm coming from, in terms of just the way they look? And you have to admit ( ironically, considering the AB wait times ) we've become an "instant gratification" society. It's hard to see any benifits down the road. You have to talk yourself into it, just like you sorta have to talk yourself into being a little more "free" with the general use of the ( AB ) hat.

EDIT: before straying OT - nice review. Penman Hats is really building up some prestige, both here and FL ( due to the cross pollenation ). The COOLEST thing I think Oak has got going right now is the oldtime "name recognition" peripherals he's offering - the hat box, brush, etc... That is really, really neat and has a great old timey feel.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:48 am

I'm right behind you Michaelson when it comes to owning a early AB. I have yet to have that hat crack and it's the hat I live in.

Kiltie, I agree that we are a "instant gratification society." and that with the lead times being what they are for the AB or the ABD people want to baby these hats. I can understand that to a point but people should know that these hats should be worn and let to become that comfortable broken in hat that it should and will be.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:13 pm

True. Wear 'em until they become a friend.

Regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:22 pm

Michaelson wrote:True. Wear 'em until they become a friend.

Regards! Michaelson

It worked for CairoIndy!

Mitch LaRue · Post by **Mitch LaRue** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:51 pm

Just wanted to echo what everybody else here is also saying, Dave...
Well-written, fair, balanced and honest review & comparison of these 2 great hat makers.
Job well done.

(And I'm looking forward to those photos, too... I know you'll do a great job with those as well.)

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:05 pm

I am somewhat puzzled. The only difference in the CS sweat and the antique roan color that I still use in the Raider fedoras.....is the color! One is called antique roan, and the other is Chocolate brown. Both use the same sheepskin. So, kinda confused here. It's not like I am using split cowhide like the Christy and HJ come with today. And my sweats are not cheap, price wise. The reeding tape and reed are great, the attaching seam of the tape to the leather is very good. The only difference between mine, and some others is the leather is stiffer, which I like, because the leather softens up if you wear the hat often. And you can always specify the antique roan color if you want it in a CS hat. Remember, the Raiders fedora gets this antique color anyways.

Are you sure it's just a matter of how much you wear it? Because I've worn both hats a lot and while the Raiders roan sweat was pretty soft from the beginning (although it may well have gotten softer), the CS sweat was pretty stiff when I got it and doesn't seem to have changed much.

They're both nice sweats, but personally I prefer the softer variety. -M

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:54 pm

DR Ulloa wrote:See, now we've scared him away! From now on I'll just .

Dave

You didn't scare me away but you are putting me up against the big dog on the block.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:18 pm

Yes and you are running with him now! In my personal opininon, the craftsmanship is neck and neck. For me, it boils down to personal preference as the quality of both hats are the best around.

Dave

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:22 pm

DR Ulloa wrote:Come on now, Travis. You are a very cool guy. Plus, you'd have to age backwards to be like me.

Dave

Yeah you're right, I am pretty freakin' cool!

And its not the aging backwards...its the miles you have to take off of the odometer.

Travis

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:46 pm

Ferris Bueller's Day Off was more than just entertaining. It was a learning experience for us all. Rolling the odometer back, the clamy hands...what didn't we learn from Matthew Broderick?

Dave

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:29 am

Are you sure it's just a matter of how much you wear it? Because I've worn both hats a lot and while the Raiders roan sweat was pretty soft from the beginning (although it may well have gotten softer), the CS sweat was pretty stiff when I got it and doesn't seem to have changed much. They're both nice sweats, but personally I prefer the softer variety. -M

Hmmm. Well, I just don't know, all of a sudden. I have looked at these F and T sweats almost since day one, and I can't see any difference in leather. Now, I did use some Tandy sweats when I first started, and they were more along the lines of John's sweats, that is, softer to the touch. Perhaps that is what you have in that hat. If it is a Tandy,(american leather co.) the reeding tape would be brown to match the sweat color. I dropped this line of sweats because they were almost impossible to flare or flange, due to the reeding tape being too soft. Whereas the F and T ones, flare easily.

I was about to change sweatband makers when we got the Indy 4 deal. And I may still do so, at least for the Indy 1, 2, and 3 hats. I think I am stuck like Chuck with the sweats used in the Indy 4 hat. If I changed, the hat would no longer be like we sent to the film.

Speaking of sweats, LLS really loves his goat skin sweats. The leather feels more like good jacket leather, according to him. I got in samples of these years ago, but they had used white thread to attach the reeding tape to the leather! A mistake, I found out later on. But, this kept me from using them at the time. But like him, I really dug that goat skin.

One thing I have noticed about vintage hats is.....the sweats were not always the best, except in the old Borsalinos. The leather used on old Borsas is really, really nice leather. Yes, soft to the touch too. But on most of my vintage hats, the sweats are not that remarkable, but the felt, liners and ribbons are. I generally had to replace most of the sweats in my vintage hats, due to dry rot and cracking. But, that is to be expected, I think. Leather breaks down, especially over time with the perspiration taking its toll on the leather.

Anyways, a nice topic. Oh, one thing I really like about John's sweats are-they are made from American raised sheepskin. This was one of their selling points back when I got in samples from them. I think I will probably use them for my non Indy 4 hats when I use up my stock of the antique roan that I put in Raider fedoras. But, I doubt most customers would even notice the change. A few would though. The more astute ones. But, as the other hatters here know, some will not like the change. That is just how this business works. In the past, I would change the way I did something, like the size of the knot on the bow, due to a complaint. I would then change, and get other complaints about the knot being different from a previous hat. Hard to win these!!

Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:59 am

Some show and tell time. Here is a 1940's vintage top drawer hat. And gives you an idea of what the sweats looked like back then. Now, this is rare bird, in that they put silk over the leather! There were lawsuits, when some leathers made folks have an allergic reaction, so for a time, silk was put on top of the leather to battle this. But, the leather part is unchanged. Notice how thin the sweats were, and how they wrinkled up over time.

Indycrazy5187 · Post by **Indycrazy5187** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:26 pm

Fedora wrote:Some show and tell time. Here is a 1940's vintage top drawer hat. And gives you an idea of what the sweats looked like back then. Now, this is rare bird, in that they put silk over the leather! There were lawsuits, when some leathers made folks have an allergic reaction, so for a time, silk was put on top of the leather to battle this. But, the leather part is unchanged. Notice how thin the sweats were, and how they wrinkled up over time.

Any chance you can turn that over Steve and take a pic so we can see how sweet it looks? 1940! Awesome

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:36 pm

I took some photographs of my Penman Raiders and my Adventurebilt Crystal Skull. Both are beaver. Hopefully these pictures will help illustrate what I have written. I will break these down into sections of two. The Penman will be shown first followed by the AB.

Front view:

Dave

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:59 pm

Hmmm. Well, I just don't know, all of a sudden. I have looked at these F and T sweats almost since day one, and I can't see any difference in leather. Now, I did use some Tandy sweats when I first started, and they were more along the lines of John's sweats, that is, softer to the touch. Perhaps that is what you have in that hat. If it is a Tandy,(american leather co.) the reeding tape would be brown to match the sweat color. I dropped this line of sweats because they were almost impossible to flare or flange, due to the reeding tape being too soft. Whereas the F and T ones, flare easily.

I was about to change sweatband makers when we got the Indy 4 deal. And I may still do so, at least for the Indy 1, 2, and 3 hats. I think I am stuck like Chuck with the sweats used in the Indy 4 hat. If I changed, the hat would no longer be like we sent to the film.

Hmm...I think you may be right and I have one of those Tandy Sweats...I think I may recall it being mentioned around the time I bought it, although who knows really.

Here are some pictures of the two sweat bands:

Older Raiders:

Newer KCS:

Interestingly enough, the Optimo Gray I have has a sweat that is similar, though not identical to the older Raiders sweat:

I know that they all probably look fairly similar (apart from the black Optimo sweat), but apart from color, I notice that if I try to flip out the sweat band, like I did to each of these hats, I have to struggle more with the KCS sweat than with either of the others. That's not to say that I'm taking a pair of pliers to it or anything, just that it feels far more stiff and seems to have much less give than the other two. Just my observation. -M

Ps. Sorry for hijacking this thread, Ulloa.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:09 pm

Don't mention it Mulceber. Anyone else, though, and I'd be

.

I thought of taking pictures of how soft, supple, flexible, whatever, both sweats were but I guess I forgot to take those pics. My AB sweat has started to break down quite nicely and feels softer than when I received it. That being said, it will never be as soft or supple as the Penman sweat.

Also, concerning the color of the felt. I've read about folks complaining that the color of the AB is too dark for an Indy hat. My Penman was the same color as the AB when I received it a year ago. It has started fading into that warm, lighter shade of brown and will continue to do so. In a year, the AB will look the same. These hats WILL fade to the Indy color with time and once they are done fading, you will have the perfect Indy brown. Other hats that look spot on for color NOW will look way too light LATER. I've seen many a hat that looks taupe after a few years of use while an AB purchased around the same time looks PERFECT! This is something else to consider when purchasing an Indy hat. And since the AB and Penman both use the same felt, this makes the decision between the two that much harder. Between the Penman and AB it really does boil down to personal preference as quality is neck and neck.

Dave

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:28 pm

DR Ulloa wrote:Don't mention it Mulceber. Anyone else, though, and I'd be .

Glad to know I have such a privileged position.

With regard to felt color, you're completely right. My Raiders AB, which I've had for something like 5 years now, is a PERFECT Raiders color, whereas when I started it was a little too dark. My KCS hat, meanwhile, isn't quite there yet, but it's certainly a lot farther along than it was when I first got it. Perfection takes patience. -M

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:11 am

These hats WILL fade to the Indy color with time and once they are done fading, you will have the perfect Indy brown. Other hats that look spot on for color NOW will look way too light LATER

Yeah, we planned it like that, from the very start. I think we had both noticed the fading of colors over time, and thought it would be better to make em' a bit darker, since we knew these hats would last a long, long time and inevitably fade out, or wash out in the color. Fedora