Did Toht's hat have the turn too?

[crismans]

I only have a flatbed scanner so I can't get the pictures without tearing up the book, but if you look at page 100 of The Complete Making of Indiana Jones, it looks as if Toht's hat is turned as well. The bow seems to be toward the front, near the eyes, just as on Ford's hat. I'm probably just seeing things, but I'd love for someone else to verify/correct this.

[3thoubucks]

Toht's hat is remarkably similar to the Raiders hat. It IS a Herbert Johnson. The blue crest is visible on the liner when Toht takes it off when Indy tries to get Marion back with a German bazooka. The brim doesn't warp like a turned hat, but it might be a looser fit. It has a bound egde. I don't have a pic that shows the position of the bow in relation to his ear. If the bow cinch is is front of his ear, and not directly above it, it's probably turned. Maybe you could take a pic with a digital camera instead of using a scanner?

[BendingOak]

It would be interesting to see the bow of this hat.

[crismans]

Here are a couple of pictures. I actually did scan the page but photobucket won't let me upsize the scan (or I just can't get it to, at any rate) so you can see the top picture showing Toht's hat from the side. Maybe these will do to illustrate what I'm seeing.

Here's the book page:



And the details:





Again, it looks to me as if the hat has been turned. I think that you even have some of the brim distortion of the Indy hat (although not near as much due to differences in the hat such as the bound brim as 3thousand$ pointed out). If it was turned, this would point to the turn being intentional (which, in the interests of full disclosure, I believe it was) rather than simply a happy accident of Ford putting it on his head wrong. Two hats turned the same way speaks more to it being intentional.

[mikemietlicki]

Awesome catch. Until I watch Raiders again, I'll subscribe to this thought...

[RCSignals]

I've wondered that myself. The bow position certainly points to it.
If the turn was intentional for Ford's hat it could be simply that nothing was specified for Toht's hat so without direction they just made all hats the same way with a turn. I suppose it could also be speculated that the turn was accidental, simply put in all hats by whoever made them up.

[whiskyman]

Possibly the old crease that is still visible as well?...

[crismans]

Possibly the old crease that is still visible as well?...

Good catch. I hadn't seen that. Interesting, that is about where the old crease would have been if they turned the bow back to sit over his ear.

[Dutch_jones]

WOW Crismans ! thanks for posting those awesome pictures !

[Fedora]

Could be that the person who sewed on the bow, got it off center. Easy to do. Fedora

[Chewbacca Jones]

My own thoughts on this are not popular in these parts, but I am fairly well convinced that the turn is a myth - accidental or otherwise. All hats, except maybe those concrete western hats, change shape while being worn. The same hat will react differently to different wearers. HJ's are insanely soft, and react dramatically to head shape. Therefore, I believe that the brim warp on both the Indy hat and the Toht hat are the result of a round oval hat on a long oval head, or a hat that's too small, or maybe both. (I think Terry Leonard or Vic Armstrong claimed that Ford's hat was intentionally too tight so it wouldn't blow off.O And, as Fedora points out, the off-center bow is not unusual. In fact, it's possible that the person working on the Raiders hats simply attached bows "in the wrong place." You may think, "Well, then why does the turn work for us." The answer is; The turn only works for some of us, and to different degrees. But if you've got the right head shape (more or less), the turn replicates the effect rather nicely.

[crismans]

The turn throws the dimensional cut (well, the whole hat) off center. Are there any more screen grabs showing the top of Indy's hat to see if this is in effect?

This one (the only one I've seen) doesn't have the right angle, I'm afraid.

http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/036.jpg

And while I'm not outright disputing you, CJ, if the brim warping is the result from the round oval hat on a long oval head, why doesn't any of the other movie fedoras show these same characteristics? Did HJ's felt change that much from Raiders to the two pre/sequels?

[Chewbacca Jones]

And while I'm not outright disputing you, CJ, if the brim warping is the result from the round oval hat on a long oval head, why doesn't any of the other movie fedoras show these same characteristics? Did HJ's felt change that much from Raiders to the two pre/sequels?

I never mind an informed debate of ideas, crisman. I also admit that in a few shot from Raiders, the hat is not on straight, but I do that sometimes myself... without some costume guy rebashing my hat every five minutes.

Anyway, the Temple of Doom hats were made by numerous companies, and there are no clear records which made it on screen. I find it impossible to address that film's hats intelligently on the basis of the information I have.

As for Crusade, I remind you that by then the costumes were being handled by a different person (as was Temple), and fittings were done with different intentions. And the hat did have a habit of flying off during filming, strongly suggesting that the fit was very different from the Raiders hat. And by now we all know the story of the Crystal Skull fedora.

[Fedora]

I don't know where the long oval account originally came from. I can't see the long oval in his head shape. His head to me appears to be closer to a regular oval than a long oval. A long oval is noticable, if you pay attention to alot of head shapes. He could be between a reg and long though. Fedora

http://www.starpulse.com/Actors/Ford,_H ... SG-003792/

[Chewbacca Jones]

Maybe. If the old HJ's were as excessively round as most current Akubras are, I think it could still be enough for the distortion, especially if the hat was too small. Would you agree that it's possible, Fedora?

[Fedora]

Maybe. If the old HJ's were as excessively round as most current Akubras are, I think it could still be enough for the distortion, especially if the hat was too small. Would you agree that it's possible, Fedora?

Oh sure, I agree. Plus, the Raider fedora that you see the warped brim in is a very soft felt. Easily distorted.

If the hat was turned, we should be able to see the bow side front crease, a bit smaller than the other side. And not as deep. Depending upon head shape, you could get the brim warp with just a little bitty turn. In THAT case, you might not be able to see any difference between the right and the left front creases. To be honest, I have never really looked close at this aspect. I just always assumed the hat was turned, perhaps by accident, not sure. I had assumed it, because the brim warp happens with a turned hat. Fedora

[RCSignals]

crisman's is right in that a dimensional cut is key to the effect. What happens if the dimensional cut is off, one side less than the other? Would that give the illusion of a 'turn' even if the hat was centered? (I know, Toht's hat has a bound edge and we're getting off that topic of his hat) I read that Swales cut the brim of the I-J hat by hand and by eye without measuring precisely.

[crismans]

The way the topic is turning is fine with me. And I don't think it's really even off topic as I asked if Toht's hat was turned too. To be honest, I really didn't know there was still some dispute in this area. It's interesting reading!

[Fedora]

You know, I watched some scenes last night from ROTLA, and I can't see the brim warp in the black hat. So, my first impression would be, no, it's not turned. I have never really paid that much attention to this black hat, in the past, but the pics above clearly show a flying v bow. And, I doubt highly this hat was bespoke, or custom made, but I could be wrong. From what I can tell, by 1980, the bound brim was not in style, even with hat wearers, that is, I doubt you would see many in a hat store. I am thinking D.L. MAY have just used a hat from N and B, and perhaps had the ribbon replaced. She did mention they had ALOT of hats, and she tried a million of them on Harrison while experimenting with the final look she was after for his hat. Then, she takes this knowledge to HJ and has the hat bespoke. Since she was more than just Ford's costumer designer, whe would of course pick all of the hats worn by the various characters in the first film.

Plus, from _'s research, I recall him saying(perhaps here, perhaps in an email) that one reason D.L. (D.N.) did not get the TOD gig was because she made a mistake and did not keep ownership of the Raider Indy costume, by opting to lease the said items from N and B. So, when the film was over, these items went straight back to N and B. And one reason in the warehouse video, we only see costume pieces from the other two films and not Raiders. Makes sense, but that does not mean it is a fact. Just some thoughts. Fedora

[Erri]

It is quite likely Fedora, good points, all of them. I don't see the D.N. "buying" all the hats at HJ for every single character when they had warehouses of supplies from Bermans & Nathans. The Raiders hat (+ the grey travelling Indy hat) is likely to be the only "bespoke" hat made in Herbert-Johnson because it HAD to be special.
If Toth black hat was a HJ it is simply by coincidence, I'm sure B&N had plenty of HJ hats in stock because it has been one of the few most famous hatmakers in the previous century. For all we know it could even be a Lock & Co. ... from the 50's. We might have even seen in some Hammer horror and never noticed it (I saw plenty of good hats in those films)

Then again, I might be wrong