how many beavers does it take to make a fedora?

[Indiana Dymond]

This started at teabreak time at work today.One of my workmates was reading about beavers being re-introduced into the wild here in the UK after becoming extinct over 300 years ago .

A number of pairs have been set free in Scotland and knowing I'm a keen hunter he asked if I was going up there to shoot some(as a joke he knows I wouldn't , and i do think it's a great thing to have them back ).

But this did get me to thinking just how many beavers do you need to make a fedora?

P.S. I don't mind if someone goes off topic and tells me how many rabbits it takes as this is more in my price range,and
I can get plenty of them.

ID

[Michaelson]

I had to read that subject title twice before it sank in.

My first reaction? None....they don't have fingers, so their inroads in hat making is limited at best.....and then I thought better of it....

I'll be in the car should anyone be looking for me....

Regards! Michaelson

[DR Ulloa]

I know that the big US custom hat makers (i.e. John Penman, Steve Delk, Art Fawcett) use beaver felt that comes from Canada where they have an overpopulation of beavers. I don't know how many it takes to make a hat, but I don't think the Canadians are missing them.

Dave

[gwyddion]

That's a question I think only a felter could answer Can anyone ask a felter?

Regards, Geert

[Adventure Dog]

I was expecting a punch line somewhere, but now you've got me wondering. Are we taking bets?

Can I say 4 beavers per hat? I have no idea, so that's just a my guess.

[BendingOak]

I will be placing an order for more felts in the morning and I will ask my felter.

[mark seven]

Couple of AB deluxes here!

[Fedora]

I heard once how many it takes on average, but it really depends if you are making a western hat, or a dress hat, and the weight of the felt also enters into the equation. You can buy ultra light bodies, lightweight, regular and heavy weight. I think I use 128 gram bodies, but may be wrong. I knew at one point in time as my feltmaker told me. I think Art has our felter to make him 90 gram bodies for his lightweight line. If you have seen one, it is similiar to a vintage Borsalino roll up hat in thinness.

Since only the underfur is used and not the hair, or outer coat, I would imagine it would take 2 to 4, depending upon the weight of the hat.

Down here in the South, we are over run with these critters. But they are not desirable in the furrier world or felt making world as they are hot weather beavers. The coats don't get as thick and plush as the ones in the far North USA and Canada do. Canadian beaver is the most desired in feltmaking, and brings the best price for the trapper. But the far North US beaver is good too. You need long cold winters to produce the best fur.

When you look at the price of beaver pelts, and the price of pure beaver bodies from some feltmakers, it does not work out. There is no way they could sell pure beaver bodies at the prices they do! What happens is they tell a greenhorn hatter that their nicely priced pure beaver is indeed pure beaver, when in fact, it is not. They put in just enough beaver fur to give it that feel, and the rest is rabbit. I think if I recall correctly, it takes only 20 per cent beaver fur to give a hat that certain feel that beaver fur has. The S. A. felters are notorious for this, and the main reason I would never use S. A. for felt. You really don't know what you are getting. Always go with the good feltmakers, and an old experienced hatter would know whom these felters are. IF you could get it out of him! I was lucky as I found a couple of them who would share, like John of Montana Hatters, and Kathy out in Oregon. They both recommended the feltmaker that I use, and steered me away from certain other ones.

Beware of anyone who tells you he has a private feltmaker. These just don't exist!! There are only 7 or 8 feltmakers left in the entire world today, whereas there used to be hundreds. Producing felt takes alot of very expensive equipment, most of which is not even made anymore. So a private feltmaker that just makes a limited run for a few hatters don't exist. The ecomomics does not allow it! And never has. But these hatters that insist on their private felters have snookered alot of folks who actually thought they were really getting something real special. All that these guys do is like Marc can do with Portugal. Portugal will make special runs, to your specs, for a price, and that price is very high. It is "off the system". And this makes Portugal a very desirable felt maker for hatters who do want to offer something different, and special for the afficionados, but there is nothing private about it. Anyone can buy, if they have the cash. Am I off topic yet??

While we are talking beaver, let me rant a bit about the book called Hat Talk. As some know, the author interviewed some really old retired folks involved in hatmaking back when there were factories galore. Some came up in the business and learned it, starting as kids working summers. Others sold equipment to the hat factories, and some were just salesmen of hats in the small stores of yesteryear. Now, what got my goat was she was talking to this one guy who made a really stupid statement. He said that there was no such thing as a pure beaver hat!!! He said you had to mix rabbit in with it, because beaver underfur had no barbs!!!! While he had spent his entire life in the business, even ran a few factories, this guy had to be suffereing from mad hatters disease.

Beaver was so desirable because it had alot of barbs or scales that did not need mercury or a carroting agent to raise them up so the fur would interlock. And because of this, it made the densest felt ever. When Marc sent me the pics of the lab slides of beaver fur and rabbit fur, the micropscopic view clearly showed why beaver was so desirable, traditionally.(these slides came from Marc's feltmaker who have a lab for research) First, it was a much finer or smaller in diameter fur when compared to rabbit, plus it had alot more barbs. So, you can't believe everything you read, even when the info is coming from an expert. I think this guy forgot that he was not selling felt anymore!!! So, no need to mislead the public, but he sure did.

There are really probably only a couple of feltmakers that actually sell pure beaver bodies today. The others just claim that they do! And as far as I know, only one actually will sell you a body made from pure belly beaver. That is, the underfur from the belly of the beaver. This is the finest fur on the beaver, while the finest fur from a rabbit or hare comes from the back. But you better have deep pockets! A belly beaver body, a real one, would cost as much as what I charge for a hat on my site. So, with the markups some hatters have, you could expect to pay several grand for one of these hats. And I would not doubt that some advertise as belly beaver when it fact, it is just a pure beaver body that utilizes all of the underfur of the animal. It would be impossible to tell the difference between the two, so there is alot of room to fudge on the hatters part, and to prove him otherwise would almost be impossible, unless you demanded a copy of his order from Portugal. This is nothing new though, because fur content has always been lied about, especially from certain feltmakers, from South of the Border. They are well known for this. It has always gone on, so you need advice from folks who have been in the business, especially if you were a hatter in the early 20th century when there were so many feltmakers in business. Hope I ain't boring folks. This stuff just interests me intently, and always has. Fedora

[Michaelson]

These are the type of posts we love, Steve. Keep 'em coming.

HIGH regard !Michaelson

[Indiana Dymond]

Thanks for the replies so far guys.
Think we have a similar sence of humor Michaelson .Mark Seven , the european beaver is MUCH smaller so i would need more than one!!! I would have said 8 or more beavers,but after seeing that I'm not so sure.
I'll be interested to see what your felter says Bending Oak , and Fedora that is some post

ID

[BendingOak]

I just got off the phone with my felt and he tells me its about 10 rabbits for one raw body. Maybe a little less for the beaver. Much more than I though it was going to be.

[Michaelson]

Think we have a similar sence of humor Michaelson
ID

...and if that doesn't scare the rest of you, NOTHING will!

HIGH regards! Michaelson

[Indiana Dymond]

Michaelson you should meet my father in law

As many as 10 rabbits you say Bending Oak , looks like my guess of 8 beavers might be the closest . I only ment this as a sort of joke,but even the experts are learning something .

Now do you all think I should ask how many lambs it takes to make a jacket over in that section,or will that just lead to another blood bath

ID

[Hollowpond]

I just got off the phone with my felt and he tells me its about 10 rabbits for one raw body. Maybe a little less for the beaver. Much more than I though it was going to be.

Must not be using these rabbits

[gwyddion]

Now do you all think I should ask how many lambs it takes to make a jacket over in that section,or will that just lead to another blood bath

ID

Last I've heard it takes about 9 lambs (or 2 1/2 cow )

Regards, Geert

[Indy35]

I have no idea how many beavers or rabbits it takes to make a hat, but i've got a funny story. In South Anchorage, AK, they had a boom in the population of beavers, and they were going into people yards cutting down trees, most of which were going through peoples windows, smashing cars, fences and most anything a tree can hit in ones yard. The pictures were just hysterical, you could see the smashed hood of the car or whatever, the stump and the fresh dirt scarred grass where the beaver was dragging the thing, branches all over the places. Too funny! I love beavers, coming from AK, i could drive down the street and watch'em. Muskrats are pretty cool too!

Sorry way off topic.

[DanielJones]

"Three!"


Cheers!

Dan

[binkmeisterRick]

That made my day.

[DR Ulloa]

I have no idea how many beavers or rabbits it takes to make a hat, but i've got a funny story. In South Anchorage, AK, they had a boom in the population of beavers, and they were going into people yards cutting down trees, most of which were going through peoples windows, smashing cars, fences and most anything a tree can hit in ones yard. The pictures were just hysterical, you could see the smashed hood of the car or whatever, the stump and the fresh dirt scarred grass where the beaver was dragging the thing, branches all over the places. Too funny! I love beavers, coming from AK, i could drive down the street and watch'em. Muskrats are pretty cool too!

Sorry way off topic.

I love observing animals. They are very funny. I think dogs are the best animals to just watch. They are very funny and very human in a lot of the things that they do. Raccoons are fun to watch too? As an aside, what other animals are pelted to make fur felt? I know that nutria, angora, and mink are used. Are there any other types of fur used in felting?

Dave

[CW_Alden45]

not sure if anyone got it besides me, but michaelson, YES . That sir deserves kudos. Nothing like reading a good pun to end the night on.

[Marc]

As an aside, what other animals are pelted to make fur felt? I know that nutria, angora, and mink are used. Are there any other types of fur used in felting?

I tried seal, but it didn't felt (yeah, I know: "where's the torch?! HANG HIM!!!"). Both my felter and I didn't feel quite good about this, but curiousity got the better of us, once I approached him with this idea.

Nutria is just @#$%. It's "worse" than pure rabbit, so if anyone wants to buy nutria felt through me - by all means - PLEASE let me know. Getting money from competitors for destroying their business is too good to resist

Angora is mainly to add a luxury feel - for example for Ladies hats - very velwet like.

Mink is an excellent "filler" for blends. It truly fills up the microscopic holes inbetween the single fibers on other felts, however it's not possible to use it pure. I lumps VERY easily and it's a HUGE pain in the rear to work with. Only a very little percentage of mink can be used on a rawbody, so when Stetson launched their "touch of mink" hats, you BET that it was truly just a "touch of mink". Good mink fur is approx. 6 times as high in price as beaver fur.

Otter is said to be the nonplusultra, however it's forbidden due to otters being an endangered species. So far I've only hear a single guy who claimed to have otter rawbodies, but that guy also claimed to have a private felter...

Among the more crazy than serious things I've heard and seen, is an old lady that had a (felt) hat made out of her golden retriever when it died, same with cats and even donkey.

If you read "Hattalk" from Debbie Henderson, you'll find a place where an old time hatter tells about the HUGE demand for fur back then. He said "if a critter came past the shop and it had a pelt, it was turned into a hat"

Regards,

Marc

[DR Ulloa]

I had heard that Nutria was actually made a good quality fur felt. Intersting.

I can understand why the old lady would want to wear a hat made of her Golden Retriever, though it is a bit odd. It keeps the dog with you forever. Its sweet, in a weird old lady sort of way.

Dave

[Mulceber]

Yeah, I agree - although if I was going to do something like that, I'd probably just take a clipping of the animals hair and have that mixed in with the beaver/rabbit/whatever fur during the felting process. You'd still have a little bit of them with you, but you'd be showing a bit more respect for the body. -M

[DR Ulloa]

Truthfully, I can see myself doing that, Mulceber. Don't know that I really would, but I love my dogs enough to want to keep them with me forever.

Dave

[enigmata_wood]

I had heard that Nutria was actually made a good quality fur felt. Intersting.

I can understand why the old lady would want to wear a hat made of her Golden Retriever, though it is a bit odd. It keeps the dog with you forever. Its sweet, in a weird old lady sort of way.

Dave

sounds very ecofriendly too. That's serious recycling

[Fedora]

Nutria is just @#$%. It's "worse" than pure rabbit, so if anyone wants to buy nutria felt through me - by all means - PLEASE let me know. Getting money from competitors for destroying their business is too good to resist

Very interesting Marc. So, it seems nutria works best when used in a blend, in a certain proportion?

In case your wondering, Marc has a close relationship with the guy who is over the custom felts, at his feltmaker, and who also owns it. This same guy was directly involved in the seal fur test. Marc had a pelt sent to him, the felt maker that is. I saw the microscopic slides, of that fur, and no barbs!! No way that fur could felt.

And as Marc said, the "expert" Marc is friends with, experimented on the amount of mink that could be used in a hat. It turns out, that only a very small per centage can be used, because the fur of the mink felts too fast, and causes something called a "push". This push results in clumps in the body that cannot be pounced out. Generally, this happens when you try to felt a body too fast, but with mink, no matter how slow you do the felting, the fur still clumps, or pushes. Most of what we know about fur and felt, comes from this expert, who is from a long hatting family. A great source for Marc, because this guy is active in the business. Fedora

[CairoIndy]

Truthfully, I can see myself doing that, Mulceber. Don't know that I really would, but I love my dogs enough to want to keep them with me forever.

Dave

[DR Ulloa]

Boy, did I need that laugh!

Dave

[Indiana MarkVII]

That's a great pic, CairoIndy. I am laughing out loud.

[Fedora]

To bring this back on topic....

I have read various accounts that back in the old days, a 10x hat required 10 beavers. Now, if this is indeed true, that 10x hat was only using the belly fur from these 10 beavers. It does not take 10 of those big Canadian beaver to make a regular beaver hat. Today, one of the few places you can buy belly beaver would be Marc's felt maker. I would bet those bodies would cost as much as my hats do though. So, just the body would cost me 400 bucks. The majority of pure beaver bodies today is a mixture of all of the underfur from the animal. Not much of a market for the belly fur only. The hats would retail for a few grand, from most hatters with their markups.

On rabbit or hares, the best underfur comes not from the belly, but the backs of the animals. So, a really great rabbit or hare body would only use the back fur. My point is, it would take more beavers or rabbits to make a body if only the best fur from the animal was used. The good thing is, it isn't easy to tell the difference.

Also another tid bit of info would be that back in the old days, many folks made bodies using scraps of fur from the furriers. Serratelli, got their start by doing this. Fur got expensive and scarce at different times in hat history. While the hat industry still competes for the fur with the furriers, today all of the factories that I know about, actually use the fur from whole pelts, and don't buy the scraps anymore. So, that is a good thing. It makes for better fur in the hats. Fedora

[Indiana Dymond]

Steve do you think that cowboy hats are sometimes called "10 gallon hats" because they are made from 10 animal pelts and the "gallon" part is a corruption of a foreign word for pelt,rabbit,beaver or somthing like that .

ID

[Fedora]

Steve do you think that cowboy hats are sometimes called "10 gallon hats" because they are made from 10 animal pelts and the "gallon" part is a corruption of

I think that term comes from the size of the really large crown. Big enough to hold 10 gallons. Fedora

[Indiana Dymond]

Dude that would be one realy tall crown .
It would make the raiders hat look like a scull cap ,no way would any hat hold that much water

[MustangLoverMex]

I have a question... When you cut out the brim, the "outside ring" that is formed can be in some way recycled?

Regards,
-Alfonso