Indy's Mark VII Usage...Ironic?

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:17 am

There have been countless threads about how versitile the Mark VII bag is and how many of us carry it everyday with any number of daily necessities.

Likewise there have been a number of threads asking, "What did Indy carry in his Mark VII?"

Indy's bag is every bit as iconic as his jacket and hat, even sparking heartache when he worn it

over his jacket in CS.

But, and here's the rub, how much does Indy really rely on his Mark VII?

By my count:

ROTA: Uses it for the sandbag and never again
TOD: Gets the most screen time: the putting the stones in it and then the entire bridge scene
LC: Has the Cross of Coronado taken out of it. It obviously proves useful hanging from a tank.
CS: never

In all of the movies he has many items for which the Mark VII would be ideally suited: Headpiece, notebooks, brushes, knife, gloves, diary, cigarette lighter, shotgun shells, pliers, etc. but we never actually see Indy use his Mark VII other than the cases listed above (according to my quick and dirty memory). More often we see him with these items in his jacket pockets.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

IndianaBogart · Post by **IndianaBogart** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:15 am

By my count:

ROTA: Uses it for the sandbag and never again
TOD: Puts the stones in it and never again
LC: Has the Cross of Coronado taken out of it and never again
CS: never

I do believe you are right for TOD, LC, and CS; however, I believe in Raiders he also uses it for his brush and notebook in the map room. I don't think we ever see it exactly, but he doesn't have any of his other gear, just his bag, so I'm pretty sure he put those two items in there.

The rest I would agree with you on...except that whole fight scene on the bridge where the bag is the center of attention.

-Bogart

TheExit148 · Post by **TheExit148** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:15 am

It does look like in the Map room sequence, he takes everything out of his bag; the notebook and pen, the headpiece, his brush. But you are correct we don't actually "see" him take this things out, its more of an assumption. Very interesting though.

EDIT Beaten to the punch by Bogart

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:04 am

He also pulls the Browning out of his Mk VII in the Raven Bar

Regards, Geert

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:20 am

He's not wearing his Mark VII at the Raven.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:30 am

He isn't? I could have sworn I saw him pull the Browning out of it while standing in that archway

Regards, Geert

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:14 am

To some degree, its practical useage as a part of his field gear is implied but not expressed. I've even thought that occasionally, he might have stored his jacket in it, or at least draped it over the bag as he was walking. You assume that he pulls items out of his bag like the notebook with pencil, knife, bullets to reload, etc., but we dont actually view it on screen, as it would be more convenient than stuffing them inside pants pockets? Maybe this process was under-utilized from a film making perspective?

I like the idea of it being used as a safety device, or as somewhat of an accidental 'save-your-life' type device in compromising situations like the tank scene in LC. That angle has never really been fleshed out.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:48 pm

I agree that from a film making perspective it wastes screentime to show Indy putting things in and out of his bag so the use is implied. Even in the temple we don't actually see Indy take the sandbag out of the Mark VII. It's already in his hand. Very much like how you almost never see anyone fumbling for car keys, unless they are being chased by a homicidal maniac.

The irony for me is so many of us swear by the usefulness of our Mark VII's, but Indy is rarely shown actually using his.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

enigmata_wood · Post by **enigmata_wood** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:35 pm

Indiana Jeff wrote:
In all of the movies he has many items for which the Mark VII would be ideally suited: Headpiece, notebooks, brushes, knife, gloves, diary, cigarette lighter, shotgun shells, pliers, etc. but we never actually see Indy use his Mark VII other than the cases listed above (according to my quick and dirty memory). More often we see him with these items in his jacket pockets.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

I think that's implied. Editing is all about removing the unnecessary minutia of everyday life to keep the action moving along. If the audience was forever being shown Indy delving in his bag they would think it was to play a very significant plot purpose. In reality it's just a costume ruse to allow the hero to produce all manner of timely props.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:36 pm

Since it is a viable and practical part of the gear, maybe they could cut to him fishing in the bag occasionally? You wouldn't want to over-use it. On the other hand, it could be used to heighten drama or comic relief in an uncertain moment.

Luke Warmwater · Post by **Luke Warmwater** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:41 pm

enigmata_wood wrote: Editing is all about removing the unnecessary minutia of everyday life to keep the action moving along.

And in the movies everyone always gets a parking space right in front of where they're going.

twilekjedi · Post by **twilekjedi** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:12 pm

Luckily, we never have to see him looking for his car keys. I'm often fishing for my keys from the bottom of my MK VII.

enigmata_wood · Post by **enigmata_wood** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:37 pm

Luke Warmwater wrote:
enigmata_wood wrote: Editing is all about removing the unnecessary minutia of everyday life to keep the action moving along.
And in the movies everyone always gets a parking space right in front of where they're going.

And they never lock their cars, even in rough neighbourhoods!

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:26 pm

enigmata_wood wrote:
Luke Warmwater wrote:
enigmata_wood wrote: Editing is all about removing the unnecessary minutia of everyday life to keep the action moving along.
And in the movies everyone always gets a parking space right in front of where they're going.
And they never lock their cars, even in rough neighbourhoods!

You never saw the movie Cowboy Way with Keifer Sutherland and Woody Harlsen? Two cowboys go to NYC to resue a friend and they lock their truck doors before they go into the druglords set up, of course the windows are down like any good 'ol boy would know.. won't steal your truck with the doors locked!

Funny thing is I know people who do that very thing.

Only time I remember seeing doors getting locked in a movie though.

enigmata_wood · Post by **enigmata_wood** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:39 am

whipcracker wrote:
You never saw the movie Cowboy Way with Keifer Sutherland and Woody Harlsen? Two cowboys go to NYC to resue a friend and they lock their truck doors before they go into the druglords set up, of course the windows are down like any good 'ol boy would know.. won't steal your truck with the doors locked! Funny thing is I know people who do that very thing.

Only time I remember seeing doors getting locked in a movie though.

talking of irony, I knew a guy who was desperate to replace his worn out jalopy on the insurance so he left it parked for weeks in a rough neighbourhood, unlocked, with the windows down a tad. No one stole it! when that failed he bought a new car anyway, and had it broken into 3 times in the first year.
the moral: don't own anything that looks worth taking!
That has to be another advantage to having Indy gear, none of it looks new enough to fence.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:54 am

Maybe I should have titled this "Indy's Most Under-Appreciated Accessory." What got me thinking about this was reading through some of the old posts related to CS and how disappointed people were in the lack of whip and gun action compared to the first three movies.

He carries his Mark VII everywhere, but doesn't use it that much on screen. I agree with enigmata_wood's comment that the bag is a costume element that gives the audience a "place" for Indy to carry items even if we never see the items come and go from the bag.

The most glaring thing for me is with the Grail Diary. We see it in and out of Indy's jacket pocket several times when it would have been just as easy to put it in his Mark VII. I think it's an interesting filming choice to use the jacket over the bag.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

enigmata_wood · Post by **enigmata_wood** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:29 am

Yes, the bag is a typical costume designer's response to script lines like;"[Protagonist] secretly produces [prop] while [antagonist] monologues about his plan for total world domination". That word 'produces' must be the costume designer's (and continuity editor's) worst nightmare. Of course costume and concept designers never consider just how iconic their creations can become, to them its just about finding a visually appropriate solution.
I wonder, if any fan attempted an Indy screenplay how much might the pacing suffer from over refferal to the iconography? Whereas, especially in LC, Indy is out of his iconic gear for a fair bit of the film, but Lucas knows the audience no longer need reminding of those, Indy's character is established.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:48 am

enigmata_wood wrote:I wonder, if any fan attempted an Indy screenplay how much might the pacing suffer from over refferal to the iconography? Whereas, especially in LC, Indy is out of his iconic gear for a fair bit of the film, but Lucas knows the audience no longer need reminding of those, Indy's character is established.

Great point. I was reminded of this fan film starring our very own Local Land Surveyor http://www.theraider.net/community/theater/staff_ra.php

In one scene Indy has to put his Mark VII back on so he slips the jacket off one arm, puts the bag on and puts the jacket back on. It doesn't take any real screen time given the characters are walking while this takes place, but it does make for a awkward screen moment in order to get the look "right." And if they had only waited a few years they would have known wearing the bag over the jacket would be screen accurate.

This, by the way, is in no way meaning to take away from the work of the film. It remains my all time favorite Indy fan film and I think they get so many aspects of the character spot on.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:06 pm

I wonder if the aim of having the bag was even more about having a (mostly) empty bag into which he could collect artifacts. Hence, the Shankara stones and the Cross of Coronado. I'm also thinking for example in CS, where Indy is given a larger backpack by the costumer to carry the larger crystal skull prop.

Also, perhaps the pottery sherds, etc., that were dumped onto the ground by the Russians at the beginning of CS were originally collected by Indy in the bag? Just a thought.

best wishes,
Nebraska Schulte

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:23 pm

That was a thought I had, too, NS, was that Indy used the bag to not only store small necessities, like maps, etc., but to collect pottery sherds and other small trinkets with it. Periodically, not all the time, eliminating redundancy, maybe they should show him going into his bag, because it justifies its validity and practical nature, as viable "field gear". Of course we have precedent, but it just emphasizes believable realism. Indy doesn't just hold his hand in the air, and a notebook or a .45 shell doesn't just fly into it.

Ranger36 · Post by **Ranger36** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:31 pm

Deleted by Ranger36

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:33 pm

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:10 pm

In Last Crusade we can suppose he kept the pair of binocular in it since I didn't spot any binocular case around.

But not one has yet asked what Indy kept in his shirt left pocket when he's talking to Sallah on the rooftop in Raiders... that always baffled me... I always thought it could be his passport but would the costume and prop deparment take so much care to give him a fake passport to put in a pocket (they might have!)? And aren't passports to big for those pockets? Were they smaller in the 30's? Who knows... sorry for the digression.

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:14 pm

Ranger36 wrote:You mean Indy doesn't have the Force?

I think Indy would say:

"I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."

Whoops, wrong character.

How about:

"I don't believe in magic, a lot of superstitious hocus pocus."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:24 pm

Erri wrote:In Last Crusade we can suppose he kept the pair of binocular in it since I didn't spot any binocular case around.

But not one has yet asked what Indy kept in his shirt left pocket when he's talking to Sallah on the rooftop in Raiders... that always baffled me... I always thought it could be his passport but would the costume and prop deparment take so much care to give him a fake passport to put in a pocket (they might have!)? And aren't passports to big for those pockets? Were they smaller in the 30's? Who knows... sorry for the digression.

Good point and good question--now I'll have to watch for his pocket next time I watch Raiders. Sorry--I was a much bigger digression above.

best wishes,
NS

sallah4 · Post by **sallah4** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:06 pm

This is off subject but would happen to know coronado3.

sallah4

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:28 pm

gwyddion wrote:He isn't? I could have sworn I saw him pull the Browning out of it while standing in that archway

Regards, Geert

If I remember correctly he had it tucked in his pants. Gangsta style.

Ronski · Post by **Ronski** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:18 pm

IndianaBogart wrote:
By my count:

ROTA: Uses it for the sandbag and never again
TOD: Puts the stones in it and never again
LC: Has the Cross of Coronado taken out of it and never again
CS: never
I do believe you are right for TOD, LC, and CS; however, I believe in Raiders he also uses it for his brush and notebook in the map room. I don't think we ever see it exactly, but he doesn't have any of his other gear, just his bag, so I'm pretty sure he put those two items in there.

The rest I would agree with you on...except that whole fight scene on the bridge where the bag is the center of attention.

-Bogart

Another thing I just noticed in the map room. Indy has a tape measure while he's taking notes in his book! Never noticed it before, but it makes sense. Wasn't there when he went down so it must have been in the bag.

VP · Post by VP » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:19 pm

Bullitt wrote:
gwyddion wrote:He isn't? I could have sworn I saw him pull the Browning out of it while standing in that archway

Regards, Geert
If I remember correctly he had it tucked in his pants. Gangsta style.

Yep, then zipped his jacket just enough to cover the gun.

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:04 pm

The bag is useful and iconic (not too ironic, if you ask me!)

But here's my two cents: Look at the design drawings from the late 70's: You'll note that Indiana Jones (or Smith) is wearing a military style strap over his shoulder, but there's no bag. Seems to me that the strap preceded the bag as a costume piece, and then Nadoolman or Lucas or Speilberg or whoever (maybe HF) said, "Well, perhaps a small bag attached to that belt would make sense, since he needs to carry small items from time to time."

DarenHenryW

enigmata_wood · Post by **enigmata_wood** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:43 am

DarenHenryW wrote:The bag is useful and iconic (not too ironic, if you ask me!)

But here's my two cents: Look at the design drawings from the late 70's: You'll note that Indiana Jones (or Smith) is wearing a military style strap over his shoulder, but there's no bag. Seems to me that the strap preceded the bag as a costume piece, and then Nadoolman or Lucas or Speilberg or whoever (maybe HF) said, "Well, perhaps a small bag attached to that belt would make sense, since he needs to carry small items from time to time."

DarenHenryW

I agree. As I mentioned earlier in this thread it's probably more a continuity necessity than a design desirable. A character needs some thing to 'produce' his props from.

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:47 pm

DarenHenryW wrote:The bag is useful and iconic (not too ironic, if you ask me!)

But here's my two cents: Look at the design drawings from the late 70's: You'll note that Indiana Jones (or Smith) is wearing a military style strap over his shoulder, but there's no bag. Seems to me that the strap preceded the bag as a costume piece, and then Nadoolman or Lucas or Speilberg or whoever (maybe HF) said, "Well, perhaps a small bag attached to that belt would make sense, since he needs to carry small items from time to time."

DarenHenryW

I think it has more to do with interpretation. I believe in this concept drawing he is wearing a pouch on his belt. Maybe they thought it would be to small to be practical.

alphared6 · Post by **alphared6** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:16 pm

If you mean the little OD pouch the strap seem to end in, well that is supposed to be the pouch that contains two additional magazines for the .45, M-1911 pistol in the holster on the right side of his pistol belt.

Mike

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:36 pm

Ah, I knew it was an ammo pouch, but not THAT specific. Great job!

alphared6 · Post by **alphared6** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:41 pm

I am intimately familiar with that rig!

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:57 pm

Bullitt wrote:
DarenHenryW wrote:The bag is useful and iconic (not too ironic, if you ask me!)

But here's my two cents: Look at the design drawings from the late 70's: You'll note that Indiana Jones (or Smith) is wearing a military style strap over his shoulder, but there's no bag. Seems to me that the strap preceded the bag as a costume piece, and then Nadoolman or Lucas or Speilberg or whoever (maybe HF) said, "Well, perhaps a small bag attached to that belt would make sense, since he needs to carry small items from time to time."

DarenHenryW
I think it has more to do with interpretation. I believe in this concept drawing he is wearing a pouch on his belt. Maybe they thought it would be to small to be practical.

Thanks for posting the picture! That's the one I was thinking of!

DHW

VP · Post by VP » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:14 pm

Treadwell · Post by **Treadwell** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:22 pm

Ronski wrote: Another thing I just noticed in the map room. Indy has a tape measure while he's taking notes in his book! Never noticed it before, but it makes sense. Wasn't there when he went down so it must have been in the bag.

As I recall the tape measure was already there when he arrived. The Nazis left it in place.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:06 pm

Better safe than sorry he probably has a pair of water wings and inflatable raft in there to !

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:55 pm

Or perhaps a gas mask...

digisane · Post by **digisane** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:52 pm

gwyddion wrote:He isn't? I could have sworn I saw him pull the Browning out of it while standing in that archway

Regards, Geert

Yeah, he did pause shooting, and reach off-screen to the direction of the bag for something.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:48 am

Indy didn't have the MarkVII at The Raven. Check out these pictures from TheRaider.net.

http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/148.jpg

http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ns/r10.jpg

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Imahomer · Post by **Imahomer** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:01 pm

I don't remember, where did the empty sandbag come from in Raiders?

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:58 am

Imahomer wrote:I don't remember, where did the empty sandbag come from in Raiders?

Indy is shown putting the sandbag into the MarkVII outside the temple and pulling the sandbag out at the alter.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:47 am

The most glaring thing for me is with the Grail Diary. We see it in and out of Indy's jacket pocket several times when it would have been just as easy to put it in his Mark VII. I think it's an interesting filming choice to use the jacket over the bag.

This is even more odd in that (if memory serves) the pockets were altered to accommodate the diary.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:58 am

Actually, it makes sense he would keep the diary in his jacket. Knowing the significance of it, he'd want to keep it as close to his person as possible. Otherwise, the would've found it in his MkVII when they ransacked his room.

crismans · Post by **crismans** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:36 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:Actually, it makes sense he would keep the diary in his jacket. Knowing the significance of it, he'd want to keep it as close to his person as possible. Otherwise, the would've found it in his MkVII when they ransacked his room.

Good point about wanting to keep it near his person, but wasn't the leather jacket in the same room as the bag in that scene or am I misremembering? I know Indy had a robe on but did he get the grail diary out of his jacket pocket?

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:48 pm

crismans wrote:
binkmeisterRick wrote:Actually, it makes sense he would keep the diary in his jacket. Knowing the significance of it, he'd want to keep it as close to his person as possible. Otherwise, the would've found it in his MkVII when they ransacked his room.
Good point about wanting to keep it near his person, but wasn't the leather jacket in the same room as the bag in that scene or am I misremembering? I know Indy had a robe on but did he get the grail diary out of his jacket pocket?

Marcus had the diary throughout the time Indy was in the catacombs and boat chase. Indy and he are looking at the diary in Marcus' room while Indy is in his robe. Indy puts the diary in his robe pocket as he enters to find his room ransacked.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Indiana Jake · Post by **Indiana Jake** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:36 am

I always thought it would be clever to dress up as 'concept art' Indy, with the military web belt and holster, magazine pouch, black leather belt, etc. I'd have to smoke and act a lot meaner by the looks of the painting.

Indiana Jake

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:19 am

That would be a cool alternative costume. Of course, I bet you a bag of doughnuts most people would A. immediately recognize you as Indy and B. not understand there are differences from the 'concept' look to the final.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff