The TIGHTER the Better - Theory

[3thoubucks]

I've pleated the felt in the crown in about 7 of my hats to get the channel under the ribbon in the front dent. Since I started wearing a 360 stovepipe, I get the channel to some degree without a pleat. Screenused claims there was no stitch or apparent reason for the channel, and, strangely?, his hat doesn't have much evidence of a channel, if any! ---To get the channel, all Indy has to do is wear it, and the key is a super tight fit, at least that's my theory. Here's my hat. Not much channel, but it shows up more when I wear it. My 360's are small and tight fitting, so they don't look too big, being 360's. But, I still wasn't getting the huge Raiders channel- I wondered what would happen if it was an even tighter fit, so I placed a spare sweat inside the hat, so that it had 2 sweat bands, and the channel got deeper! Counter intuitive - You'd think a tighter fit would push a channel out. - I made a styrofoam form a little bigger than my head, it's inserted a half inch and here's my hat on it. Look how the extra tightness pulls the felt in just above the ribbon (above). So SOC. And it really makes the channel deep. it also bulges the felt out on the channel side of the front pinch. So, the Raiders hat was an extremely tight fit in my opinion. That's basicly been my opinion lately, so the only new thing about this theory is about it being even tighter than I was previously willing to go. The Top of the Well of Souls and Waco Plane hat donning are as tight as it actually was- ... DEAL WITH IT!... Here are the videos again- http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... it=Winston

[jts1031]

What about the possibility of the hat being a regular oval, and going on a long oval head? If you press with your fingers at the front and back of the sweatband, does the channel become any deeper? Picturing it in my head, I see the channel becoming more prominent as well.

[Hollowpond]

That looks really nice 3K! However, not being a super SA person, I would be very reluctant to wear a tight hat to achieve this look. If you have ever worn a tight hat you know that it gives you a splitting headache!

Travis

[mark seven]

I love the channel on my Winston 360,one of the little details that really makes the hat Raiders.

[binkmeisterRick]

Doesn't Ford have a strange head shape, to boot? I bet that had a lot to do with it, too.

[WalkingEye]

What about the possibility of the hat being a regular oval, and going on a long oval head? If you press with your fingers at the front and back of the sweatband, does the channel become any deeper? Picturing it in my head, I see the channel becoming more prominent as well.

i really think there is something to this theory. i've made both a regular oval and a long oval block and made hats on both of them. my head is more of a long oval than it is a round oval and i get a much better raiders fedora with the regular oval. Like you said when you put it on, it pulls the bottom of the left and right hand sides of the hat in towards your head. the top of the sides at the crown transition stay virtually the same... emphasizing the straight stove pipe look to the sides. this becomes even more prominent when the hat is a bit tight because the hat is forced to hold this shape and not relax or retain any of the round oval shape at the brim break / sweatband.

and 3Kbucks... you are by far one of the best hat bashers around.

[Indy35]

I've always argued that the hat he wore was far too small, and it was to allow it to stay on his head much easier when performing stunts or working in the wind. Because he didn't have to wear it all day, like we would, it didnt matter much. My Fed IV will create a small channel like that, because im a long oval in that regular oval, however it will not do it nearly as deep as this is shown, which is far more SA. Thats a great lookin' hat by the way.

[Ohio Jones]

3K$,

My first block was a 360 stove pipe....I could never get the results that you have been getting. I love the looks of your hats....so KUDOS to you. Keep it up.

[McFly]

Doesn't Ford have a strange head shape, to boot? I bet that had a lot to do with it, too.

That's correct, Bink. His head had a reverse taper and a mushroom shape to it, IIRC.

Shane

[Satipo]

The problem I have with the super-tight theory is that, in my experience, such a hat restricts your eye-brow movement and pulls/distorts your upper facial features - not the best thing for an actor who's face has to be free to express things, and I see no evidence of this effect on Ford's face.

[Indy35]

The problem I have with the super-tight theory is that, in my experience, such a hat restricts your eye-brow movement and pulls/distorts your upper facial features - not the best thing for an actor who's face has to be free to express things, and I see no evidence of this effect on Ford's face.

I agree with you here, as this is my experience as well, but if you wear it so the bottom of the sweat is just below the widows peak, and which is a little higher than normal it reduces this problem. It seems to me Ford wears his lid a little higher up on his forehead, most likely so his face could be seen easier on camera, this could account for what you're talking about. Either that or im crazy.

[3thoubucks]

The styrofoam form in my hat is over a half inch larger than my hat's size. This would be a real scull crusher. But look at Ford on top of the Well of Souls. He's tugging the hat on with two arms, his head seems to start to retract into his torso with each tug, like a turtle head into it's shell. Now that's tight. The Waco plane video is not as dramatic, but he uses 3 two handed tugs instead of the Wells' 2. It's really not a wearable hat, but if you are pondering what makes the Raiders look elusive, you should consider how rediculously tight it might have been.

[crismans]

Okay, this might just be a silly question but why would Ford have worn such a tight hat? He wasn't the star at the time of Raiders as he was at the time of Temple but if he could get them to sew in new liners for the jacket, why couldn't he have told Spielberg "This thing is killing me. Can I get a bigger hat?" He certainly wasn't trying to achieve the iconic look that we all love now. You would think he'd just get a bigger hat rather than a splitting headache.

[binkmeisterRick]

First of all, the tight hat theory is nothing new and has been discussed ages ago. Second, they wanted a hero whose hat never came off, so yeah, you might need a tighter hat than normal.

[Jones Boy]

I for one agree with you on this one 3K$. I have a long oval shaped noggin and when I put on my Fed Dlx it stretches it out, creates the mushroom type effect and definitely deepens the bashes.

(and yes if I wear the hat for too long it leaves a red forehead dent )

Cheers
Jonesy

[raider 57]

Ford does appear to have a headache here!!

[moses]

It doesn't appear to be too tight when he adjusts it on his head just after switching the idol.

[DR Ulloa]

Thats a different hat, your talking about, Moses. Thats the hat used in the Elstree shoots. I think that the tight hat theory, which was discussed not too long ago, is a definate possibility. It would make sense in that it would make it harder for the hat to fall off Ford's head. Now, I don't think the fit was as tight as is commonly specualted. I think the look of the SoC hat has more to do with the actual felt itself than anything else. I also think that the tightness of the RIBBON and not the fit is more the reason why the hat looks the way it does. It is definately a tight fitting hat, though. That is for sure.

Dave

[3thoubucks]

I haven't read every post ever posted on the Fedora forum, but nearly. I would like to see the post where someone previously sugested a tight fit it's self would get you a channel under the ribbon in the front dent. Please direct me to it, with all respect and regards to whoever beat me to it. - I'm not talking about a "tight fit" in this thread, I'm talking about maybe a couple sizes too small. That's beyond "tight fit".

[DR Ulloa]

I'm sorry, I thought I was agreeing with you. I don't think I've ever read some one write that the fit of the hat was the only reason why the SoC hat looks the way it does. All I'm saying is that the felt and tightness of the ribbon have more to do with the look than the actual fit of the hat. I believe that Ford may have worn a hat that was a size smaller than his true hat size, but definately not "a couple sizes too small." If someone wears a 7 1/2 there is no way a 7 is fitting them, no matter how hard they tug on the hat. There's tight and then there is too small. I think Ford's hat was tight yes, but not too small. I just don't see how that would be possible. He wouldn't be able to pull the thing down over his head if it was a couple sizes too small.

Dave

[3thoubucks]

Wasn't directed at you in particular Dr. .. Yes, the Raiders felt was totally wierd. No, I could pull a hat one size too small on without using as much effort as Ford does, and I said "maybe" a couple sizes too small.

[DR Ulloa]

Something that I've never read here is the possibility of the exaggerated pulling on the hat to get it on might be a character quirk Ford put in there to bring the character to life. I can't remember if he tugs on the hat that hard every time he see him put on the hat. If he does, it may be just that. Sometimes we are so centered on the gear itself, we forget it was in a movie where an actor may have used it as part of character development. Am I nuts and its just late or does anyone else think this is a possibility.

Dave

Edit: I don't think I've read that anywhere 3k$. This is probably the first time I've ever heard or read about a tighter fitting hat actually deepening and better defining that chanel on the SoC hat.

[3thoubucks]

Dr. - about a tight ribbon... Wouldn't Screenused's hat have a channel just sitting there if a tight ribbon was a big factor? I do put my ribbons on tight, and I think that is a factor, but I think the hat size it's self is the main thing. Certainly, with no ribbon, there would be no channel, so there is a big connection.

[Dutch_jones]

The Christy's ( basically HJ hats ) sweatbands have a tendency to shrink a little in wear This might have been a result back in 1980 too ! I remember the shot of ford sitting on the seaplane putting on the hat, tugging it down by the sides of the brim

[DR Ulloa]

To be honest, I do see that chanel in Desi's hat. It is not as defined as it was back in '80, during filming, but its there. I wouldn't expect a hat that is nearly 30 years old to hold its crease the way it did when it was new, expecially the way this specific hat was abused. The other reason I believe we don't see Desi's hat showing a deep chanel is becuase that hat has tapered. The felt isn't bulging the way is used to. That hat alot to do with it, I think; the way the felt spilled over the ribbon definately affected every aspect of that look, including the chanel.

I seem to remember there being a theory about the Tunisia hat having it's sweat band folded in half. This, with a shrinking sweatband would definately tighten up the fit. I've read through all of Desi's hat's thread but can't remember right now whether or not he ended up confirming that the hat had the sweat doubled over or at the very least, a crease.

Whatever the reason why the chanel was there, I think it was done deliberately. Noodleman knew what she was doing. She may not have known when she did whatever it was that she did would give that chanel, but she knew it would give her a specific look that she wanted for Ford. Sizing a hat down would definately be one of those tricks she would have used. Tightening up the ribbon or having it tacked on tighter than usual would be another.

Dave

[3thoubucks]

I don't think Desi's hat has shrunk. It still has the dusty fingerprint on the camel hump that's in the movie. Probably not worn, just stored- it shouldn't have shrunk. I like the idea of a folded sweat, but for the sake of argument, if the hat became insanely tight, whouldn't they just unfold it? As far as head shape and oval, these are weak forces when compared to the energy needed to overcome the tightness, just to put it on. I'm making a really small 360 to see if this "channel is the result of extreme tightness, theory" works on my head.

[ravencrow]

i didn't read every post here so bear with me but what if the hat was not undersized but slitely over sized with the double sweatband giving this channel look but fitting properly, would that work?

[DR Ulloa]

I don't think that would have happened. If the hat was a size too big, folding the sweat would definately make it fit right, but it wouldn't look right on the head. This hat looks right, not oversized. Also, why would the hat be too big that they would need to fold the sweat? Ford was reportedly fitted for the hat at HJ in London. This argument also works against the undersized hat theory, which is why I don't think the hat was TOO tight on Ford.

3k$, If you don't have the same head shape as Ford, it won't be an accurate depiction of what a tight 360 block would have looked on Ford. Then again, I don't think the hat was a 360 to begin with . I Really want to see what happens with the small block, though.

Dave

[3thoubucks]

So I made a 360 block 3/8 inch smaler than my head size and made a hat. Not a great Idea afterall. Not bad, but the length of the top crease was too short. What worked better was tightening my ribbon more, and folding the sweat in my regular 360, (whose block is 1/4 inch bigger diameter than my head.) It takes two hands to pull it on now! (With the whole sweat folded.) See, I used to need a stitch in my stock Federation/Borso/Miller to pull the channel off. Since Desi said there was no stich, I didn't know what to do. I gave up sweat folding because I have to make these 360s tight in the first place, so the crown doesn't look too big. Well, just cinch that ribbon big-time! Fold the sweat. If I unfold the sweat, it's not such a head-crusher and more Elstree. - fold the sweat and I'm In Tunisia, with a headache. You can see the corner of the folded sweat half way up the ribbon at the edge on my hat, i'ts only folded in that area, cause who wants brain damage? . ........................................ I'll tell you guys something- With these mods and a 360 block, It feels like I've arrived at the complete Raiders hat now. ..........................................................................................

[Jones Boy]

That hat looks sweet mate. Great job.

Cheers
Jonesy

[mark seven]

Really nice!

[Indiana Leon]

Yeah! That looks really awesome! Great job!

[Fedora]

You know, I really DON'T know how that channel got formed. But this theory is as good as any other.

Notice though that in the pic above, with Ford sitting with this hand on his forehead, the hat is kicked back, which makes room for his hand. No tension on the sweatband here. Yet the channel is very visible.

Another thing my eye sees is on the comparison with the 360 on 3M$ hat and Fords sitting to the left(the side shots) is that the Raider fedora appears to be shorter from top of front pinch to the back of the hat, than 3M$'s hat. Course if the hats were not the same size, this would account for that. The larger the hat size, the longer this top would be. Now, what would explain the top of the hat being shorter, in those comparison shots is that the Raiders fedora was a regular oval on the bottom and a round oval on the top. That is traditional in many fedoras, and even other hats. The hat tapers from the reg oval on the bottom, to morp into the round oval on top. Then the creases push this out so the hat appears straight. Especially on the front and back of the hat.

Also, on the first pic of Ford sitting at the table, follow the left side as veiwed, from the base of the ribbon to the top of the hat. You see the hat move inward right where the ribbon ends, and then the hat bulges out on the sides. The same occurs on the back, that many call reverse taper, when in fact, it is just a bulge. True reverse taper that comes from the back of the block being straight is totally different in appearance than what we see on the hat when it is on Ford's head. We see bulges on the Raider fedora.

The Raiders fedora was a hat that would bulge, and IMO, gives the illusion of it being straighter than the original block actually was. We then try to replicate this by making the hat straighter, when a bulge is actually what is needed.

Now, to my eyes, so much of the look of this hat is simply the way it settled and bulged. And unless you have that sort of felt, it is hard to really pull off that look completely. And this is the major weak point of most of the hats we can buy today.

I kinda figure when Swales custom made those hats for Harrison, he make them to fit him comfortably. That would be the normal way to fit a hat. I doubt that D.L. even thought about making the hats small, giving Ford a headache as he sit around between scenes in the heat.

Ford complained to Bernie that the 22 7/8 hats we made were a bit too tight. So Ford is a 7 3/8. Or 23 inches.

A long oval head is a longer head than a regular oval. I have never seen a pic of Ford that shows his head as long oval. I had assumed with everyone else that he was, just because someone at some point in time said that he was. The Raiders hat is not a long oval, neither are the TOD or TLC. Long oval heads do warp the brims, BUT, they also push out the back of the hat, so we should see taper on all of the Indy fedoras in the back with his long oval head. But we don't. Fedora

[3thoubucks]

Thanks DR Uolla for suggesting I stick to ribbon cinching and sweat folding. Fedora said-

Notice though that in the pic above, with Ford sitting with this hand on his forehead, the hat is kicked back, which makes room for his hand. No tension on the sweatband here. Yet the channel is very visible.

A good point, that supports a tightened ribbon. It's not kicked back a lot, though, maybe it's still fairly tight, if it's as tight as it appears in the videos. After Indy emptys some sand from the bag in the idol grab, the hat is tilted about an inch further back and the tension is really off, and it looks like the channel fades a bit. Here's the before and after.

Another thing my eye sees is on the comparison with the 360 on 3M$ hat and Fords sitting to the left(the side shots) is that the Raider fedora appears to be shorter from top of front pinch to the back of the hat, than 3M$'s hat.

This is because I have an extra long oval. Here's a mold of it-

I have never seen a pic of Ford that shows his head as long oval. I had assumed with everyone else that he was, just because someone at some point in time said that he was.

It's clear his head wasn't round. It wouldn't be hard to measure the ratio of length to width in any of his films. I don't know if it would be in the regular or long category. Well of Souls Sunset shots. (These are bad examples, but compare any two front and side shots.

And unless you have that sort of felt, it is hard to really pull off that look completely.

Yes, the felt is the Wildcard How can it do this. - New Theory- The Raiders hat was high quality wool felt.

[Fedora]

Good points 3M$. I can't disagree with you. Darn it!! And by the way, to be clear, I do like your hats! And if I did not make my own, I would certainly buy your vision of the Raider fedora. It would have a place in my collection that is for sure. I like your out of the box thinking, and your very attentive eye. And like me, you enjoy what you do. If you are ever down my way, we need to get together and talk hats. You have any relatives that you might visit one day down South? Fedora