All the Raiders Jacket details in one place...

[Raskolnikov]

100% sure of something comes from documented proof and mind you, even that can be falsified. But if we had access to the type of information we have now, we can be pretty certain of some stuff. For the Pirate's movie, Jack Sparrows boots were made by this company out of this leather, it's documented and there is photographic evidence to support it, etc...

Yes, of course, but we all know that this is not exactly what happens with the Raiders jackets, although it seems proved enough that Peter made them. So, once we have accepted that there is no such documentation (at least affordable to us) as the one we can find, for example, in the CS jackets, we have to decide if there is anything else that can be considered at least reliable. You have chosen to think that, unless there is 100% documented proof of something nothing can be said for sure about it. I understand you, and I think your point is pretty fair. Nobody can argue that. But that doesn't mean that all opinions should be considered the same, because that's definitely unfair. TN's conclusions are very valuable and have nothing to do with the old story of ‘someone told me that another told him...etc’. I think that his ‘theory’ (if you want me to put it that way) is the most coherent we have heard for the time being and, although that doesn’t make it conclusive, it sure can’t be considered as ‘just another opinion’.

[Zendragon]

As you know most people have trouble discerning probability from certainty as this is a trait deeply imbedded in the human psyche. I know you dislike this, otherwise you wouldn't question the claims of those who do, but I believe it would be better to replace claims of certainty for claims of probability when you read them and not call them out, as some people will not understand what you are trying to make clear.

Regards, Geert

You have a great point there, as far as I am concerned, I got nothing else to say about this subject. I have said what I think and others have done the same. So next up will be something else I am sure. But as far as what hide? Let's go with "what ever you think looks best" lol. When I get one made, it will have something more like Yohimbo did with his jacket I think. I like the mix.

Yes, of course, but we all know that this is not exactly what happens with the Raiders jackets, although it seems proved enough that Peter made them. So, once we have accepted that there is no such documentation (at least affordable to us) as the one we can find, for example, in the CS jackets, we have to decide if there is anything else that can be considered at least reliable. You have chosen to think that, unless there is 100% documented proof of something nothing can be said for sure about it. I understand you, and I think your point is pretty fair. Nobody can argue that. But that doesn't mean that all opinions should be considered the same, because that's definitely unfair. TN's conclusions are very valuable and have nothing to do with the old story of ‘someone told me that another told him...etc’. I think that his ‘theory’ (if you want me to put it that way) is the most coherent we have heard for the time being and, although that doesn’t make it conclusive, it sure can’t be considered as ‘just another opinion’.

Agreed, while expert opinions are still opinions, they don't call them experts for nothing. As for people stating opinions as fact, I will refer you to Geerts post.

[RCSignals]

Agreed, while expert opinions are still opinions, they don't call them experts for nothing. As for people stating opinions as fact, I will refer you to Geerts post.

Are you making an assumption that an opinion cannot be fact or factual? What exactly is 'fact' in your estimate?

[Raskolnikov]

Agreed, while expert opinions are still opinions, they don't call them experts for nothing. As for people stating opinions as fact, I will refer you to Geerts post.

I agree with both Geert an you. But I would like to say something else... I’d rather consider TN’s ‘theory as 'his' conclusion and not just as an opinion, even if it is an expert's opinion. He may think, for example, that the shrunken lamb was a poor choice or the best one, and that would be an opinion although a very important one. But when he assures that the hide used in the jacket was shrunken lamb he is not giving us an opinion but a conclusion based in the fact that he has enough knowledge to assure things like that. Maybe it is a wrong conclusion, of course. And we may choose to be skeptical because of it. But then, unless we know exactly why it is wrong or right, we will be the ones that are just giving opinions. I think he is right but I can't prove it: it just sound's good to me and seems to explain a lot of things. But, then again, that's why I only have an opinion and can't give any conclusions.

[RCSignals]

Agreed, while expert opinions are still opinions, they don't call them experts for nothing. As for people stating opinions as fact, I will refer you to Geerts post.

I agree with both Geert an you. But I would like to say something else... I’d rather consider TN’s ‘theory as 'his' conclusion and not just as an opinion, even if it is an expert's opinion. He may think, for example, that the shrunken lamb was a poor choice or the best one, and that would be just an opinion although a very important one. But when he assures that the hide used in the jacket was shrunken lamb he is not giving us an opinion but a conclusion based in the fact that he has enough knowledge to assure things like that. Maybe it is a wrong conclusion, of course. And we may choose to be skeptical because of it. But then, unless we know exactly why it is wrong or right, we will be the ones that are just giving opinions. I think he is right but I can't prove it: it just sound's good to me and seems to explain a lot of things. But, then again, that's why I only have an opinion and can't give any conclusions.

Well stated, and really what many of us have been trying to say.
there is no reason for Tony to have stated the hide was shrunken lamb and the appearance it had if it was not. He could have said it was anything, or made it very easy on himself and simply stated it was smooth brown lambskin. He didn't however. He wanted to be exact in what he was duplicating. I would think the owner of the original jacket might have noticed if he replica made by Tony was not the same.

[Kt Templar]

Well stated, and really what many of us have been trying to say.
there is no reason for Tony to have stated the hide was shrunken lamb and the appearance it had if it was not. He could have said it was anything, or made it very easy on himself and simply stated it was smooth brown lambskin. He didn't however. He wanted to be exact in what he was duplicating. I would think the owner of the original jacket might have noticed if he replica made by Tony was not the same.

See, that's the thing, your statement is deeply flawed. Hyperthetically, it is TOTALLY in his interests to claim a different skin. It differentiates his product and give him a hook. Especially if he has big stack of that skin ready to go, and doubly so if he particularly likes to work in that leather. Hyperthetically that is.

[gwyddion]

Well stated, and really what many of us have been trying to say.
there is no reason for Tony to have stated the hide was shrunken lamb and the appearance it had if it was not. He could have said it was anything, or made it very easy on himself and simply stated it was smooth brown lambskin. He didn't however. He wanted to be exact in what he was duplicating. I would think the owner of the original jacket might have noticed if he replica made by Tony was not the same.

See, that's the thing, your statement is deeply flawed. Hyperthetically, it is TOTALLY in his interests to claim a different skin. It differentiates his product and give him a hook. Especially if he has big stack of that skin ready to go, and doubly so if he particularly likes to work in that leather. Hyperthetically that is.

Great! more philosophy I will not go into semantics (meaning the different meanings words can have, so I'm not implying it is not important at all that Raskolnikov uses different words for what I think is the same thing) but I will go into this.

That could be the case KT, but the reasoning would be flawed: It is better not to deviate too much from what people are used to. If you do, people will rebell against it as was the case when Tony's Raiders jacket first appeared here. The only reason a part of the people here started to accept it was that people started to see evidence suggesting he could be right about the leather. If that didn't happen, and the motives were as in your hypothetical example, he would have been stuck with the shrunken lamb and people would still have wanted only smooth leather.

If you look at Business psychology, you also need to factor in the "habbit factor" customers have: this is why market-research is done in the first place

Regards, Geert

[RCSignals]

Well stated, and really what many of us have been trying to say.
there is no reason for Tony to have stated the hide was shrunken lamb and the appearance it had if it was not. He could have said it was anything, or made it very easy on himself and simply stated it was smooth brown lambskin. He didn't however. He wanted to be exact in what he was duplicating. I would think the owner of the original jacket might have noticed if he replica made by Tony was not the same.

See, that's the thing, your statement is deeply flawed. Hyperthetically, it is TOTALLY in his interests to claim a different skin. It differentiates his product and give him a hook. Especially if he has big stack of that skin ready to go, and doubly so if he particularly likes to work in that leather. Hyperthetically that is.

'Hypothetically'
There is the flaw in your statement. Mine is not flawed

edit:
Geert is correct in his assessment.

[Kt Templar]

Yes and no, hyperthetically, he found something in the skin that he could build on and caricature to create differentiation.

And don't get me started on market research. Built by committee you get lowest common denominator. The spark of creativity is extinguished, sounds a bit like a film company we know, huh? (Yes, I've sat through all the studio pie charts, thank you very much, they call their meetings Summits to.) lol.

[Kt Templar]

See, the normal people have a cool calm an collected chat and NB goes on the attack.

[Raskolnikov]

Great! more philosophy I will not go into semantics (meaning the different meanings words can have, so I'm not implying it is not important at all that Raskolnikov uses different words for what I think is the same thing)

Yes, I understand this kind of conversation may sound too pedantic.

Yet , I can't help it, I have to continue: I think the difference is important because these two words doesn’t mean the same thing. Let me put it this way:

A judge may conclude in a trial, due to the lack of evidences, that the accused is not guilty. But he may think, in fact, that the accused is guilty: and that’s and opinion, an expert's opinion by the way. But a judge conclusion is a verdict and not an opinion.
We are talking about professionals. His statements are something different from just an opinion and thinking otherwise it seems to me clearly unfair...

But I have to go to bed now... It's too late in Spain
Good night,
Rask

[gwyddion]

Neutronbomb, PM sent. Please read before further posting.

Thank you

Regards, Geert

[gwyddion]

Great! more philosophy I will not go into semantics (meaning the different meanings words can have, so I'm not implying it is not important at all that Raskolnikov uses different words for what I think is the same thing)

Yes, I understand this kind of conversation may sound too pedantic.

Yet , I can't help it, I have to continue: I think the difference is important because these two words doesn’t mean the same thing. Let me put it this way:

A judge may conclude in a trial, due to the lack of evidences, that the accused is not guilty. But he may think, in fact, that the accused is guilty: and that’s and opinion, an expert's opinion by the way. But a judge conclusion is a verdict and not an opinion.
We are talking about professionals. His statements are something different from just an opinion and thinking otherwise it seems to me clearly unfair...

What I meant was that we were using different words and different sets of definitions to try and convey the same opinion. I agree with your wording, but it doesn't differ from what I meant, nor do I think it differs that much from what Zen meant (allthough I can't be sure of that offcourse). The main difference therefore was the words we used to convey what we meant, and that is the science of semantics

[Raider S]

See, that's the thing, your statement is deeply flawed. Hyperthetically, it is TOTALLY in his interests to claim a different skin. It differentiates his product and give him a hook. Especially if he has big stack of that skin ready to go, and doubly so if he particularly likes to work in that leather. Hyperthetically that is.

KT, sometimes I feel you begrudge Tony even making a Raider's jacket. If you talk to him, he never tells people they should/must get the shrunken lamb and if you call asking for a cow or goat jacket there's a good chance he won't even mention the lamb option.

I don't think he needed any "hook" and even though you say hypothetically, you are still putting this out there to see what sticks. And I know you don't like your previous posts being brought up, but you have said some really personal things about Tony. Why, because you really believe it or because you feel he's taking business from Wested? You don't say similar things about Todd's or G&B. Given the price point for many, those are more realistic alternatives. Plus, Tony hasn't come on here and gone off anyone so why the sometime hostility from some?

If you talk to Tony directly, even if you ask and try to get a response, he never says negative things about people - customers or other vendors. Tony didn't go out and seek the Indy thing and tells people how lucky he was for the opportunity that fell at his feet.

And just to debunk your hypothetical, Tony is always finding new leathers to make the jackets people want. He's always looking for things to give people texture, colors, drapes, whatever. He set a number to make, he's not ramping up production or changing his quality to meet demands, and he's not telling anyone to go out and sell jackets for him.

We can all get what we want or can afford and then talk about them. I have other maker's jackets so they have my money and I don't feel bad for talking about my purchases.

[RCSignals]

Indiana Jones jackets are not Tony's bread and butter'. Some people seem to think it is and that there is a big lucrative Indiana Jones jacket market. He never intended on making CS jackets after the movie. He was encouraged to for 'the fans' so he did.
someone wanted him to duplicate a screen worn Hero Raiders jacket , so he did, and was encouraged to make it fro 'the fans' as well. Fan's asked him to make a Tod and LC jacket, so he did. Tony is encouraged by I-J fans and he takes pleasure in making jackets for them. It's a sort of distraction for him now from his regular jacket business, and he enjoys it, so far. He won't be doing it forever though.
He did not choose shrunken lamb simply because he had a 'stack' of it laying around. He specifically spec'ed it for texture and colour for this jacket to match the original. He continues to spec other leathers suitable to keep the essence of the original jacket. As I said, he could have taken a much easier approach and used any other lamb. There is much easier stuff to work and deal with.

[Dalexs]

OK kids, guess what time it is?

A) Time to maybe eliminate the Leather Jacket section? (Because these threads always seem to end the same way...)
B) Time to eliminate "Vendor Status" to all vendors so you guys can't pick on any of them on OUR dime?
C) Hand out a flurry of warnings and suspensions, because the staff is getting tired of cleaning up
these dung heaps you guys call "discussions."

We are watching almost everyone in this thread. Do not be surpised if you suddenly find yourself locked out for a few days. Ask around, it just happened last week.

Consider this locked.