Flapping in the Wind--pocket flaps

[crismans]

I thought we might start a new thread on the pocket flaps and let CK's go back to discussing his jacket. Here's some comparison shots of the different jackets (keeping in mind I'm not where near the photog Platon is).

First up is my custom Wested HH (2008):



Next is my TN I shrunken lamb (1st gen):



G and B goat:



And Todd's custom in washed cowhide:



I see what some were mentioning about the double under and, it's true that the Westeds were different from the other three in the construction of the flap.

But, for fun, I tried to position the flaps in the position that had everybody in an uproar:

Wested
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 240055.jpg

Nowak
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 240053.jpg

G and B
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 240054.jpg

Todds
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 240052.jpg

As you can see, none of them got it exactly, but the Nowak and the Todds came closest (Todds closest of all). Which really goes back to the leather. The Todds and Nowak has a thinner, more pliable leather (with the Todds being the thinner of the two). The Wested is HH and the G and B is a very substantial goat. So, again, I don't think the construction had all that much to do with it. Big differences in construction could affect it, of course, but I don't believe the difference between the Wested and the other makers counts as an big difference. It's the leather in this case, folks.

[Yojimbo Jones]

Great comparison.

Did you request a different press stud on your Wested? It's different to the others and the Ford shot in the other thread...

[crismans]

Nope, I didn't make any hardware requests.

[Mac]

Here’s a comparison to chew on:



Because all of these flaps where shot from different angles, with different cameras, and different lenses, etc., etc., take it with a huge grain of salt. Also, since each jacket, whether it comes from a factory or a small shop, is essentially hand-made and subject to minor variations from jacket to jacket, your flap may not exactly match the corresponding photo. Still, it’s a nice rough comparison.

I omitted Magnoli’s excellent offering and Todd’s new flap style, as I didn’t have a decent picture of either. Maybe someone could be kind enough to post them as well.

- Mac

[crismans]

I got my Todd's custom just a few weeks ago so it should have the new flap design. I'll post a straight on shot later.

[Kt Templar]

The floppiness has lot to do with the thickness of the leather, my horsehide is constructed in the same way as all my other Westeds, and it will not easily fold into the pocket. Others do it easily.

Washed goat:


Lamb:


Old lamb, seems thinner than my newer one:


Horse:

[crismans]

The floppiness has lot to do with the thickness of the leather, my horsehide is constructed in the same way as all my other Westeds, and it will not easily fold into the pocket.

My point exactly on the other thread where this came up.

If the construction is similar, it's the leather that determines whether the flap can achieve this or not, not some minor differences in the cut or construction.

Hey KT, we agreed!!

[Satipo]

On a side note, as much as I'm drawn by an apparent Raiders vibe of the ultra-curly, upside-down rollercoaster shape of TN's pocket flaps, they don't look much like those in Mac's Raiders shots above. I'm wondering if the TN flaps are somewhat of a caricature of the originals in conveying their Raidersness. Can anyone point me to screenshots where the TN flaps closely resemble Ford's?

[RCSignals]

On a side note, as much as I'm drawn by an apparent Raiders vibe of the ultra-curly, upside-down rollercoaster shape of TN's pocket flaps, they don't look much like those in Mac's Raiders shots above. I'm wondering if the TN flaps are somewhat of a caricature of the originals in conveying their Raidersness. Can anyone point me to screenshots where the TN flaps closely resemble Ford's?

How about the first two photos posted by Mac? Imagine those flaps flattened out without their curled ends.

TNs flaps are exact duplicates.

[Satipo]

No, it's not apparent there to me, hence my request. Judging from the non-curled right side, even if the left was flattened, the sides don't look like they would be long enough to create that 'm' shape, more like a curvy 'v' as in the G&B 2006.

[CM]

No, it'snot apparent there, hence my request. Judging from the non-curled right side, even if the left was flattened, the sides don't look like they would be long enough to create that 'm' shape, more like a curvy 'v' as in the G&B 2006.

Looks liek it, Sapito - maybe one of those optical illusions.... But I am sure Tony copied the jacket he had accurately. It may be that that jacket's flaps are not seen in the film... who knows.

[Mac]

Here's a larger photo of the first flap, from the scene just before Indy enters the the idol temple; presumably it's the Hawaii jacket.


- Mac

[Satipo]

Thanks, Mac. I can see how the right side is curled up in that pic, but it's not clear how far the sides would droop downwards if flattened. It certainly doesn't look like they would droop much in the second Raiders shot.

[RCSignals]

No, it's not apparent there to me, hence my request. Judging from the non-curled right side, even if the left was flattened, the sides don't look like they would be long enough to create that 'm' shape, more like a curvy 'v' as in the G&B 2006.

I don't know which 'right side' you think is non curled, but neither photo shows a flat flap.

If you consider the flaps in photos 1 and 2 flattened, instead of bent and curled, I don't see the G+B at all. Now straight off the photo, not taking into consideration the bends and curls, you might see the G+B.

[Satipo]

The right side in picture two has minimal curling and is virtually flat. I really can't see it having such a pronounced droop if flattened out more. I suspect any potential droop would fall somewhere between the G&B and Todd's.

[RCSignals]

Oh well, you see what you see.

If the question is burning, call the man, but the answer is as I said, TNs flaps are exact duplicates.

Also keep in mind as Mac said:

Because all of these flaps where shot from different angles, with different cameras, and different lenses, etc., etc., take it with a huge grain of salt. Also, since each jacket, whether it comes from a factory or a small shop, is essentially hand-made and subject to minor variations from jacket to jacket, your flap may not exactly match the corresponding photo.

[Satipo]

but the answer is as I said, TNs flaps are exact duplicates.

I'm sure this was the intention, but for now at least, the execution is apparently more caricature.

[RCSignals]

but the answer is as I said, TNs flaps are exact duplicates.

I'm sure this was the intention, but for now at least, the execution is apparently more caricature.

to you at the moment

[Satipo]

Of course, and others who see the same as I.

[Yojimbo Jones]

The first one I think indeed is curled over and looks exactly like one of Tony's. Bear in mind with the 2nd one, it simply is unlikely to be the Hawaii jacket (not sure the context of the shot), so it's unlikely to match perfectly anyway. Calling it a caricature is going a bit far if it's not the same jacket.

[RCSignals]

The first one I think indeed is curled over and looks exactly like one of Tony's. Bear in mind with the 2nd one, it simply is unlikely to be the Hawaii jacket (not sure the context of the shot), so it's unlikely to match perfectly anyway. Calling it a caricature is going a bit far if it's not the same jacket.

Yes, but I see it with the second as well, it's very close to the the first, but may be a different jacket.

[Satipo]

I use the word 'caricature' in the way it has often been applied in the fedora section. To convey that I suspect certain recognizable characteristics may have been exaggerated slightly. I do not mean to imply comedic grotesqueness in any way.

[RCSignals]

With all these questions of TN pocket flaps lately I'm beginning to wonder if there is some sort of 'pocket flap gang' out there

[Satipo]

A gang in COW? Perish the thought!

[RCSignals]

'Apple Dumpling Gang'

[Mac]

Bear in mind with the 2nd one, it simply is unlikely to be the Hawaii jacket (not sure the context of the shot), so it's unlikely to match perfectly anyway.

The second flap is from the same scene, outside the idol temple, and is, again, presumably the Hawaii jacket, though it is the opposite pocket.


Click for full size.

- Mac

[Yojimbo Jones]

A gang in COW? Perish the thought!

"Stuffed Sausage Gang"

[RCSignals]

Bear in mind with the 2nd one, it simply is unlikely to be the Hawaii jacket (not sure the context of the shot), so it's unlikely to match perfectly anyway.

The second flap is from the same scene, outside the idol temple, and is, again, presumably the Hawaii jacket, though it is the opposite pocket.


Click for full size.

- Mac

That's actually a better view of it for some reason, and makes it look even more like the TN flap. Thanks Mac.

[Kt Templar]

but the answer is as I said, TNs flaps are exact duplicates.

I'm sure this was the intention, but for now at least, the execution is apparently more caricature.

You are quite right. The 2 dropped corners appear to be a caricature. All the others hover around the right shape. Sometimes the centre is too pointy, sometimes the curve of the scallop is slightly off. None, even the G&B have the dropped corners.

[CM]

Mmm, I'vve almost given up on the idea of photo realism. But I will say that I think the G&B jackets sometimes have piping that looks too thick to me. I actually think the TN pocket flaps are great but they seem to vary from jacket to jackt. Optical illusion or handmade product - who cares...

[Kt Templar]

Then you get into the minefield of the 2 distinct types of flap.

The classic, outside temple one.... and the truck chase/Stars one.

[Yojimbo Jones]

My TN ones aren't that bendy. I don't know how indicative those Nowak shots are of all of them. Bear in mind the nature of the shrunken lamb plays a big role and can create that sort of "caricature" effect, and additionally it can morph back and forth if you tug sideways vs. vertically. Having said, that I have done nothing to these photos to mess with them at all, apart from the normal random scrunching etc. you do all over in our crazy obsession with making more grain. Everyone does that, right? Guys?

Anyway, I've taken 3 shots of each pocket at slightly different angles to show how much that can create the illusion of "excess scalloping". Our old friend Mr. Optical Illusion. (For flap tucked in version, see here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40756&p=579466#p579466 )

[Zendragon]

My TN ones aren't that bendy. I don't know how indicative those Nowak shots are of all of them. Bear in mind the nature of the shrunken lamb plays a big role and can create that sort of "caricature" effect, and additionally it can morph back and forth if you tug sideways vs. vertically. Having said, that I have done nothing to these photos to mess with them at all, apart from the normal random scrunching etc. you do all over in our crazy obsession with making more grain. Everyone does that, right? Guys?

Anyway, I've taken 3 shots of each pocket at slightly different angles to show how much that can create the illusion of "excess scalloping". Our old friend Mr. Optical Illusion. (For flap tucked in version, see here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40756&p=579466#p579466 )

That's a great example. It's been said before, photos without some sort of baseline and having them all taking under the same condition don't mean much.

[Raskolnikov]

The silhouette of the flaps, along with pocket size, was one of those details that must have varied more clearly from one jacket to another in the first film. The Raven Bar jacket, for example, seemed to have flaps considerably shorter and less scalloped than the ones used in TN Raiders and, thus, they look like those of the Westeds. But, in the truck chase scene, we can see in one of the shots that this is another jacket, and it had flaps that looked exactly like Nowak's. At least, they look dead on to me. This is also bacause, in this case, the edges aren’t curled:
http://s584.photobucket.com/albums/ss28 ... =Flaps.jpg

[Zendragon]

Looking at the screen shot above, it does look like the TN pocket flaps are a little more extreme than the screen cap. The remind me of the LC pocket flpas on the Smithsonian jacket.

That being said, with such little variation from pocket flap to pocket flap, it is entirely possible that one screen used jacket did vary a bit from another.

I think it's really hard to compare when we aren't sure which jacket was copied and which jacket is from the screen cap

And as we can see now, photos don't really show much when it comes to this stuff

[RCSignals]

My TN ones aren't that bendy. I don't know how indicative those Nowak shots are of all of them. Bear in mind the nature of the shrunken lamb plays a big role and can create that sort of "caricature" effect, and additionally it can morph back and forth if you tug sideways vs. vertically. Having said, that I have done nothing to these photos to mess with them at all, apart from the normal random scrunching etc. you do all over in our crazy obsession with making more grain. Everyone does that, right? Guys?

Anyway, I've taken 3 shots of each pocket at slightly different angles to show how much that can create the illusion of "excess scalloping". Our old friend Mr. Optical Illusion. (For flap tucked in version, see here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40756&p=579466#p579466 )

Exactly, there are not 'two dropped corners' on the pocket flap.

It's another 'flap about nothing' over some detail of a TN jacket by people who don't own one.

[RCSignals]

The silhouette of the flaps, along with pocket size, was one of those details that must have varied more clearly from one jacket to another in the first film. The Raven Bar jacket, for example, seemed to have flaps considerably shorter and less scalloped than the ones used in TN Raiders and, thus, they look like those of the Westeds. But, in the truck chase scene, we can see in one of the shots that this is another jacket, and it had flaps that looked exactly like Nowak's. At least, they look dead on to me. This is also bacause, in this case, the edges aren’t curled:
http://s584.photobucket.com/albums/ss28 ... =Flaps.jpg

I think Rask, what we are dealing with in almost every instance of those 'shots' is 'optical illusion'

[RCSignals]

but the answer is as I said, TNs flaps are exact duplicates.

I'm sure this was the intention, but for now at least, the execution is apparently more caricature.

You are quite right. The 2 dropped corners appear to be a caricature. All the others hover around the right shape. Sometimes the centre is too pointy, sometimes the curve of the scallop is slightly off. None, even the G&B have the dropped corners.

The TN flaps do not have dropped corners either.
They are actually, along with the Todd's and G+B, the most consistent from jacket to jacket

[Zendragon]

The silhouette of the flaps, along with pocket size, was one of those details that must have varied more clearly from one jacket to another in the first film. The Raven Bar jacket, for example, seemed to have flaps considerably shorter and less scalloped than the ones used in TN Raiders and, thus, they look like those of the Westeds. But, in the truck chase scene, we can see in one of the shots that this is another jacket, and it had flaps that looked exactly like Nowak's. At least, they look dead on to me. This is also bacause, in this case, the edges aren’t curled:
http://s584.photobucket.com/albums/ss28 ... =Flaps.jpg

I think Rask, what we are dealing with in almost every instance of those 'shots' is 'optical illusion'

This may or may not be true. At the very least it is either optical illusion or different jackets where some aren't as scalloped as others. Oddly enough, both can be right.

[Satipo]

Anyway, I've taken 3 shots of each pocket at slightly different angles to show how much that can create the illusion of "excess scalloping". Our old friend Mr. Optical Illusion.

I'm actually not seeing much of a droop in any of Yojimbo's pics regardless of angle variance (perhaps a hint of it in the top three shots). So no need for the old optical illusion defense here. Yojimbo's pocket flaps are more likely just cut a little differently to some of the other TN examples. I assume that's bound to happen, as they are hand-made.

Now, if you really want to ace me, you'll tell me that the one in Mac's shot is actually from Yojimbo's jacket.

[Raskolnikov]

I think Rask, what we are dealing with in almost every instance of those 'shots' is 'optical illusion'

Sometimes it seems to me that the differences are very evident from one jacket to another, specially concerning the flaps and pocket size. I do find the flap of that screen-shot in particular very similar to the ones in my jacket and I just wanted to show it... But, on second though, you are right and it has been said here many times before: we can't be sure just watching screen caps, and specially in Raiders of the Lost Ark where the images always seem so blurred and the details of the jacket never appear clear enough.

[Raider S]

Raider's #3 (the one also in Mac's list)


Raider's #4


Flaps are the same width measured but appear slightly different due to lens angle and distance.

Photo of the edge of #4.

[Mac]

Now, if you really want to ace me, you'll tell me that the one in Mac's shot is actually from Yojimbo's jacket.

The TN belongs to Raider S; used because he provided very good closeups of the pockets of his goat [jacket!].

It's been said before, photos without some sort of baseline and having them all taking under the same condition don't mean much.

Zen, I understand your point (and note my original disclaimer) but the applicability of that statement is largely dependent on the context, content, and the analysis of a particular set of photos.

For example, in the flap comparison you can see the Raiders flaps are scalloped, while that particular set of U.S.Wings pockets are virtually devoid of scalloping. As I stated earlier, take it with huge grain of salt and, while the flap comparison may not mean much and certainly has its limitations, it’s far from useless for our purposes.

A few more flaps:





http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/M ... Flap10.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/M ... sFlap9.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/M ... sFlap9.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/M ... sFlap5.jpg

- Mac

[crismans]

There are bound to be minor variations as these are handmade jackets. There are variations in any handmade jacket. Sometimes I think I see some variations in flaps, but this could be from lighting, camera angles, and the like. It's certainly nothing major enough to start claiming that the pockets are made differently.

[Zendragon]

Now, if you really want to ace me, you'll tell me that the one in Mac's shot is actually from Yojimbo's jacket.

The TN belongs to Raider S; used because he provided very good closeups of the pockets of his goat [jacket!].

It's been said before, photos without some sort of baseline and having them all taking under the same condition don't mean much.

Zen, I understand your point (and note my original disclaimer) but the applicability of that statement is largely dependent on the context, content, and the analysis of a particular set of photos.

For example, in the flap comparison you can see the Raiders flaps are scalloped, while that particular set of U.S.Wings pockets are virtually devoid of scalloping. As I stated earlier, take it with huge grain of salt and, while the flap comparison may not mean much and certainly has its limitations, it’s far from useless for our purposes.

A few more flaps:





http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/M ... Flap10.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/M ... sFlap9.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/M ... sFlap9.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c39/M ... sFlap5.jpg

- Mac

In my opinion, compared to what I have seen in Raiders, the TN version of them, based on the jacket he copied, are too scalloped. The pics you have included show that very thing to me.

[RCSignals]

In my opinion, compared to what I have seen in Raiders, the TN version of them, based on the jacket he copied, are too scalloped. The pics you have included show that very thing to me.

Funny, because the pics Mac has shown, show me the flaps in Raiders are scalloped the same as the TN jacket flaps.

[Zendragon]

In my opinion, compared to what I have seen in Raiders, the TN version of them, based on the jacket he copied, are too scalloped. The pics you have included show that very thing to me.

Funny, because the pics Mac has shown, show me the flaps in Raiders are scalloped the same as the TN jacket flaps.

Well that's the thing about opinions... they are gonna vary. There is no way to prove right or wrong, so all we can do is say "to me it looks this way"

[Yojimbo Jones]

Zen, I actually think this sort of thing is relatively empirical as long as we can take into account the possibility of illusion. For the record, which do you think are closest? What do yours look like? The bigger the group we can check out, the more it will indicate brand accuracy, especially with Wested.

BTW, I'd perhaps rule out the truck interior shot from above as it could well be the bullet wound jacket and the pocket looks VERY different from the others.

[Zendragon]

Zen, I actually think this sort of thing is relatively empirical as long as we can take into account the possibility of illusion. For the record, which do you think are closest? What do yours look like? The bigger the group we can check out, the more it will indicate brand accuracy, especially with Wested.

BTW, I'd perhaps rule out the truck interior shot from above as it could well be the bullet wound jacket and the pocket looks VERY different from the others.

You are so right on it. We can argue our opinions till the cows come home lol, in the end, it is still our point of view.

Which is the closest? In this comparison, I think the Todd and G&B



When I get a chance, I will snap a pic of mine, at least two my jackets anyway

[Raider S]

To my eyes, the Todd's and G&B look different from one another. They look closest to the second Raider's example and the Nowak closest to the first Raider's example.

On my flaps, made months apart, I didn't give any instructions, photos, or even photos of the first jacket to model the second after. I just expected to get whatever it was I would get. I my case I happen to have four nearly identical flaps on two jackets.