Westeds New 'Hero' Jacket

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Fri May 22, 2009 7:48 pm

Definitely based on the Nowak pattern. You can tell by the shoulder seams and general cut around the shoulders. It's been lengthened from a 1:1 copy, though.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri May 22, 2009 8:56 pm

The word of the day is... irony.

Funny, I was correct all along - it was the Chris King jacket Wested copied.

Han Jones · Post by **Han Jones** » Fri May 22, 2009 9:00 pm

Yojimbo Jones wrote:Definitely based on the Nowak pattern. You can tell by the shoulder seams and general cut around the shoulders. It's been lengthened from a 1:1 copy, though.

This comes as no surprise to me. After the first TN 1 hit I knew it was only a matter of time before came up with something.

I could never have imagined they would do it like this.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Fri May 22, 2009 9:14 pm

That's a good choice of smiley, Han.

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Sat May 23, 2009 12:13 am

nicktheguy wrote:That's the special new pattern????
Really?
April Fool's day was over a month ago.

My thoughts exactly!!

JC1972 · Post by **JC1972** » Sat May 23, 2009 12:53 am

I know Peter just got back from Croatia so maybe he hasn't had time to get on here.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 1:21 am

Hi Raider,

How long is it front and back? It looks like it is about 26" at the front(?) And how tall are you?

Did you specify what length you wanted? How did that work?

(Sorry for all the questions!)

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Sat May 23, 2009 1:25 am

You know, it's funny, some of you are acting the exact same way that you get angry with others acting in TN threads. Why is that?

This is what I talked about before... here we have a new thread about someone's new jacket. Instead of saying "grats" or "nice jacket" or not commenting at all, I guess you feel you need to take shots at the jacket, Wested, Peter, etc...

It is a sad thing really. This is one of the reasons why I took a break from this board before...

On a side note, and to keep the thread on topic...

I think I need to see more detailed pics, but I am not sure if I like the look of the new pattern. I am curious about the leather though... would like to see close up pics.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat May 23, 2009 1:40 am

no, they are not acting the same way. At all.
Although some may be acting similar to how you yourself did when you first discovered the TN Raider jacket on your return from sabbatical.

But, there is a history surrounding all of this, that you may have missed.

What is important about Raider's jacket is that he is happy with it, likes the fit, and how it looks. Something tells me he himself thinks it is too long.

Raider, were you measured for this jacket at Wested, or by someone else? Just curious.

Raider Of The Lost Ark · Sat May 23, 2009 1:45 am

Well it is a 26 length and Peter took the measurements.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat May 23, 2009 1:48 am

Thank you Raider. Is a 46 jacket your usual size?

Also, I can't really tell from the photos, but does the arm seam line up with the bottom yoke panel seam, or is it below it?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat May 23, 2009 1:55 am

Zendragon wrote:You know, it's funny, some of you are acting the exact same way that you get angry with others acting in TN threads. Why is that?

This is what I talked about before... here we have a new thread about someone's new jacket. Instead of saying "grats" or "nice jacket" or not commenting at all, I guess you feel you need to take shots at the jacket, Wested, Peter, etc...

It is a sad thing really. This is one of the reasons why I took a break from this board before...

On a side note, and to keep the thread on topic...

I think I need to see more detailed pics, but I am not sure if I like the look of the new pattern. I am curious about the leather though... would like to see close up pics.

believe me when i say that we are all being quite well contained considering the lineage of this jacket. us 'TN lovers'

have taken more than our fair share of shots in the past so don't try to bait us with your posts. study the history of how this wested jacket came about and all of the things that wested/peter commented on when tony's first jackets hit the marketplace. if you are going to dig into this, why not comment on that first? i am not taking shots at anyone, i just want to know what people think of how this wested jacket got designed after what transpired on the nowak threads. please, i'd like to hear people's opinions.....we are still talking about this jacket on this thread so i believe it to have relevance. quit dancing around the subject or throwing it up in the attic....lets get it out.

raider wanted an SA wested. the fit is not correct as it is too large in the shoulders and too long in the body. if it were any other leather coat, it would be a very nice coat....but he wanted an indy jacket and i believe that he didn't get it with this "new pattern". it's happened to me as well....i've rearranged flightjackets standard 'indy jacket' offering to move it more into the SA realm but there is only so much they can do with their limited knowledge of the indy jacket. it was a nice jacket on it's own but was not an indy jacket imo.

btw......the leather was posted as goat...regular goat....regular chrome tanned wested goat. i have a jacket in this prior to the goat drought....it is a very nice hide when you get the shine off.

moses · Post by **moses** » Sat May 23, 2009 2:23 am

Shame - i thought the jacket would look more interesting. The cut (hard to appreciate, as I'm afraid that jacket is simply too big for the wearer) doesn't look as accurate as Tony's and Todd's - and it's still the same boring wested hide. And I've been through five Westeds in various hides myself, which is why I gave up. I really hope Wested are going to come up with a hide that has some character and a better colour. Authentic brown in a chrome tanned hide is the dullest non-descript brown I think I've ever seen in a jacket.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 2:27 am

Zen, I for one am asking questions about RAIDER'S JACKET. It's On.Topic. As others have noted, you ask plenty of questions at other times.

Anyway, RAIDER, the reason why I ask is that if it's authentic (IE based on the Nowak jacket Peter copied), it should be 23" long in front if you are 6'1" for the proportions to be "correct" to the way it appears in the film.

To me it looks very long on you at 26". (What a guess of mine, huh?

) But if that's what you were going for, and are happy with it, that's all that matters! If not, and you hinted this in your first post, then that's where I'd question why it isn't right, when you paid for a tailored, correct fit.

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Sat May 23, 2009 2:29 am

RCSignals wrote:no, they are not acting the same way. At all.
Although some may be acting similar to how you yourself did when you first discovered the TN Raider jacket on your return from sabbatical.

But, there is a history surrounding all of this, that you may have missed.

What is important about Raider's jacket is that he is happy with it, likes the fit, and how it looks. Something tells me he himself thinks it is too long.

Raider, were you measured for this jacket at Wested, or by someone else? Just curious.

RC, I NEVER took shots at TN or his jacket, nor the people who bought them. Sorry but you are mistaken. Asking questions and having doubt into something is very different than saying that the jacket pattern is an April Fool's joke, or other of the little comments that are being made here. Maybe I did miss out on the history, but does that really excuse this behavior? Are we not adults?

I agree, the jacket looks too long.

and Yojimbo, I know, I wasn't naming names. And the fit of this latest Wested is odd, looking too big and too long. I wonder if they got the measurements right?

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 2:35 am

moses wrote:Shame - i thought the jacket would look more interesting. The cut (hard to appreciate, as I'm afraid that jacket is simply too big for the wearer) doesn't look as accurate as Tony's and Todd's - and it's still the same boring wested hide. And I've been through five Westeds in various hides myself, which is why I gave up. I really hope Wested are going to come up with a hide that has some character and a better colour. Authentic brown in a chrome tanned hide is the dullest non-descript brown I think I've ever seen in a jacket.

I think you're right on the money Moses.

A HUGE factor is having the right hide. You could duplicate one of the shrunken lamb jackets absolutely perfectly in every detail, but if it was done in a very plain hide, it takes away a huge amount of the look. I only learned this when I held such a jacket in my hands.

Unless Wested can solve this other part of the problem (apart from what seems to be a bit of an ongoing difficulty with a measuring tape, Raiders' testimony pending), they're producing jackets with only half of the look.

For the record, I don't mind this as a jacket - I think with a bit of collar training it will look fine. But as a replica, it's a bit big and more than a bit long. I had a similar issue with my Wested HH, solved it by nuking it in the washer on hot and shrinking it down a bit to conform to me better.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 2:38 am

Zendragon wrote: and Yojimbo, I know, I wasn't naming names. And the fit of this latest Wested is odd, looking too big and too long.

Fair enough ZD.

Zendragon wrote:I wonder if they got the measurements right?

I'm sure you didn't mean that sarcastically, but... yeah... it's the only thing that would explain it, huh?

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat May 23, 2009 3:01 am

Are you sure about that Zen?

Perhaps you will now chastise those who comment in TN jacket threads the same way you have chastised some in this one. An even hand.

This from Raider's first post:

I'd VERY much appreciate your comments / feedback - good or bad.

that is the license with which people are commenting on the jacket and everything surrounding it.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat May 23, 2009 3:06 am

Zendragon wrote:.......... And the fit of this latest Wested is odd, looking too big and too long. I wonder if they got the measurements right?

I hope that isn't a 'shot' at the jacket and Wested

Raider Of The Lost Ark · Sat May 23, 2009 3:14 am

The arm seem is about 1 1/2 - 2" below the yolk (if I'm getting this right). I'm about 25 1/2 chest. I've been back and apparantly the jacket can't be made shorter / narrower without loosing the 'billowy' effect at the front and the collar size (which are the parts I really like). So I don't really know what to do. I'm not bothered avbout the 'room' up top, more the length at the front. Although it comes an inch passed the pocket at the back when I thought it would be 'spot on' as measured....

I think I'm going to have to just get used to it and stop worrying about SA so much, I wonder if I can dissable the Jacket forum

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat May 23, 2009 3:36 am

Thanks Raider, that's what I was looking for about the seams.

Well you have to be happy with the length and it sounds like you aren't.
I don't understand how shortening it would effect the collar? But I can see how shortening it might be a problem if it really is 3" longer than standard for that jacket.

I think part of the problem may be that it was measured as a 'regular' jacket, and this cut as copied from the TN jacket isn't. It's meant to be short from the start, and has a unique, 'dynamic' cut and fit.
You'll have to decide what to do, but sounds as you thought it would be 1" passed your back pockets but didn't come out that way. (you asked it to be 1" past?)

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 3:59 am

If you live in the UK, and didn't get what you specified / paid for, I would just ask for one that IS the agreed-on cut/fit. It's consumer law, plain and simple. If it were Wested or TN, and this happened, I would just politley but firmly be saying, "Well, that's not what I asked for when you measured me. Could you please give me the jacket that I paid you for?"

Raider Of The Lost Ark · Sat May 23, 2009 5:09 am

TC I asked for it to end at the bottom of the rear pocket flap. Yojimbo, thing is I feel awfull going back again and 'complaining'. As this replaced a previous one that was totally wrong. I thnk as the collar is longer the front 'hangs down' further. If it was shorter it would pull the bottom front edge 'up'. That's my understanding anyway.

It doesn't look so short with jeans, but then they will be worn differently to 'trousers'. I do like it, it just turned out longer at the front than I expected. It's frustrating but I hope I'll 'get used' to it. I doubt anyone not frequenting these boards would notice. I couldn't go smaller it the shoulders anyway. I do have a long torso. My partner is 6ft and if we sit in the back of a car my head is stuffed into the roof lining, and she has room. Aren't humans weird....

mark seven · Post by **mark seven** » Sat May 23, 2009 5:20 am

Raider,I do hope you can get used to the extra length,but I know from bitter experience that these things don't go away and you will probably end up hating the jacket.You shouldn't have to 'get used' to a poor fitting jacket.Are you based in UK?,we Brits are not very good at complaining!

You're going to be wearing your jacket a long time,I would send it back.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat May 23, 2009 5:28 am

I think the shoulders display the same effect as most of the TN's with this cut. Except with a TN it is seen as a plus and with Peter it's a negative! If you zip the jacket right up is it a normal fit without the 'blouseyness'? Once you zip it up the back of the collar should sit back against your neck and everything fit back where it 'should do' and the chest 'fit' correctly?

The jacket does look long on you in the SA sense. Did you ever get pics of you with the shorter jacket? What was the difference between the 2? You could possibly do with 2" less in the back length and still be ok.

It's important to remember, never to try and wear in a piece and then come back and try to change it. Just like with all other makers; if you have worn it, it can't be returned, no matter what country you are in.

Don't be dishartened, you are getting a lot of comments from the Nowakophiles so put on your harshness filter!

I myself am a Wested addict so take my view with a pinch of salt too.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Sat May 23, 2009 5:54 am

Kt Templar wrote:I think the shoulders display the same effect as most of the TN's with this cut. Except with a TN it is seen as a plus and with Peter it's a negative! ...

I don't think that's the case, I don't see the same 'effect' at play.
Better photos might help though.

I guess you'd be surprised with what some makers do, even retail outlets, taking back or replacing 'worn' clothing.
at least in the US.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat May 23, 2009 6:34 am

RCSignals wrote:
Kt Templar wrote:I think the shoulders display the same effect as most of the TN's with this cut. Except with a TN it is seen as a plus and with Peter it's a negative! ...
I don't think that's the case, I don't see the same 'effect' at play.
Better photos might help though.

I guess you'd be surprised with what some makers do, even retail outlets, taking back or replacing 'worn' clothing.
at least in the US.

And others have the 'remove tags and no refunds' rule. I'm just sayin'....

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 6:55 am

Kt Templar wrote:I think the shoulders display the same effect as most of the TN's with this cut. Except with a TN it is seen as a plus and with Peter it's a negative! ...

KT, As I said early on, the shoulders are relatively spot on in terms of the cut. It isn't about Nowak vs. Wested. Remember, most (if not all) "Nowak people" OWN A WESTED. I do, and I still like it for what it is.

The issue here is even with a jacket in hand to copy off of, AND a customer ON-SITE(!) to custom fit and explain how he wants it to fit, Peter has made a hash of the fit! It's simply too long and a bit too big, as you say. Most importantly, it's not what he asked for. As I noted, WHOEVER the maker is, come on! How much slack has to be given by a paying customer to someone that does this for a living? And to hear that the customer is only buying this jacket because the last order was messed up as well? It's a bit comedic to defend, don't you think? I mean if I went to my tailor and had a suit measured up to be altered, and it came back with sleeves 1" short, you'd expect him to act all embarrassed, promise to have it fixed asap and apologise profusely. With Wested, the vibe routinely is "meh, too bad."

At the end of the day, I don't think Raider was expecting TN leather at the price he paid. But he has to be happy in his own mind that he's not settling -again- for something that has cost him hundreds of pounds.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat May 23, 2009 7:18 am

From the way I understand it, Raider DID ask for a longer jacket. What he didn't expect is that with this cut the front ends up looking a lot longer than the back when unzipped.

Take a look at my CS Proto to see that it usually does it with other Indy jackets too, just not as much...

In this thread... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34545&p=577633#p577633

We don't actually know how short his first one was. Many of us have found, when taking a long girlfriends, wives etc along and putting on an SA length jacket almost invariably they turn up their noses and say... It's too short! The normal Indy jacket IS probably a bit short for modern tastes... however this does seem to be changing, I'm seeing more and more shorter length jackets on people. I think Daniel Craig's bond is influencing styles somewhat in the UK at least.

Anyway, not wanting to put words in Raider's mouth. On first putting on this jacket he could have said, "It looks a too long, can you put this on the rack and make me another a bit shorter". It's happened before, eventually someone will come along with matching proportions and buy it.

Unfortunately that ship has probably sailed.

PETER · Post by **PETER** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:04 am

Having received the most disgusting vile and abusive email from a certain unchecked member I vowed not to return to this venue, but I have been emailed to post and clarify.

Firstly, let me state that Raiders jacket was made to his size specs using features from the 'Hero' pattern
but not the finished item. Also he had it made in goatskin which will NOT be an option. He has been here several times
with queries and I have offered to carry out modifications which he has to date declined, the door is still open.

Now to 'THE JACkET'. Having various people muttering about screen accuracy and the TN & Tod's jacket being more screen accurate and better made than my Raiders which is what they have copied from I really thought I was going bonkers.
Being encouraged by Chris King and others I decided to find out what this was about. I got the TN jacket, a Tod standard, a TOD cheapy and my Wested Jacket and set out to find out where they differed take the best features and recreate a complete set of new patterns based on this combination rather than alter my existing patterns. I found similarities and differences in every jacket.

At the same time I was experimenting with washed shrunken lamb, not like in C.K's TN jacket but proper stuff.
The only problem was the skins being too small for the back panel. We have now solved that problem.

I have not moved too quickly on this project which has been on going since last year as I want to get it right even down to the growth marks on the skin in the screenshots. I also plan possibly to use up my old Leather Concessionaires labels in this limited edition

I am attaching pictures but must emphasize this is not the finished article just a taster and it will be more expensive.

Cheers
Peter

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:15 am

Wow thank you Peter for clearing that up ! I think its very interesting to see this, The hide you last posted a photo off is a beaut!

Will this be named the "hero"? Or do you have another name in mind?

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:17 am

PETER wrote: At the same time I was experimenting with washed shrunken lamb, not like in C.K's TN jacket but proper stuff.

Care to elaborate further on that comment? Proper stuff?

Are you now ready to say the original jackets had a texture and were shrunken? Or are you still sticking to your smooth leather claims?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:21 am

Raider S wrote:
PETER wrote: At the same time I was experimenting with washed shrunken lamb, not like in C.K's TN jacket but proper stuff.
Care to elaborate further on that comment? Proper stuff?

Are you now ready to say the original jackets had a texture and were shrunken? Or are you still sticking to your smooth leather claims?

Actually what are you missing? He never said that? There is a difference between shrunken and the striations, surely thats not the same thing?

VP · Post by VP » Sat May 23, 2009 10:22 am

PETER wrote:even down to the growth marks on the skin in the screenshots

He's not talking about shrinking.

What's the side strap configuration, can we get a close up on it?

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:28 am

VP wrote: What's the side strap configuration, can we get a close up on it?

Currently, that one has the 2 x loop rectangular sliders.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:31 am

Hey Dutch, why don't you let the person asked the question answer or elaborate on it? "Proper stuff" were Peter's words, not mine.

VP · Post by VP » Sat May 23, 2009 10:39 am

Hey Raider S, where are these smooth leather claims you so loudly boast about?

Dr._J · Post by **Dr._J** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:46 am

I remember reading Peter's claims regarding smooth leathers as well. I'm sure there on here somewhere. Oh well, he's entitled to change his mind.

Regards, Dr. J

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:46 am

I will simply wait for a response about "proper stuff" and not be baited into arguments with those trying to steer away from what was plainly said here.

Feel free to go back through the many (and now probably locked) threads where fits occured over texture vs. distressing. And feel to go back through the comments thrown at the claims made about an original screen-used hero jacket.

PETER · Post by **PETER** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:11 am

I say 'Proper stuff' as CK's TN was made from crispe a different item. No offence was meant or implied.
The pictures are of crispe skin I have and the TN jacket

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:19 am

You are saying the Nowak jackets were made from "crispe", correct?

And are you saying the original 80's jackets (that you have said you actually made) were in fact made of a shrunken leather?

One more question; since you work from the original patterns (you give a certificate that states this) what did you find necessary to copy from the Nowak or Todd's to make a more accurate jacket? Something not in the patterns?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:29 am

really how can you see what kind of leather it is from a screenshot like that !
come back when you got some high quality press stills ! or Blu ray caps.
from the looks of that screenshot it looks like TN's leather is wrong so what is your point, it looks nothing like the texture on Whiskeymans jacket.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:34 am

Nice photos Peter. A picture is worth a thousand words...

Han Jones · Post by **Han Jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:35 am

Raider S wrote:You are saying the Nowak jackets were made from "crispe", correct?

And are you saying the original 80's jackets (that you have said you actually made) were in fact made of a shrunken leather?

One more question; since you work from the original patterns (you give a certificate that states this) what did you find necessary to copy from the Nowak or Todd's to make a more accurate jacket? Something not in the patterns?

I would also like to have this cleared up since many here including myself have one of your "raiders" jackets made from your original pattern out of your "authentic brown" hide. So after all that has been said do you Peter still claim that the jackets I bought back in 2003 was made from the same pattern you claim you used on Harrison Ford. To the Mods this is an absolutly legitiment question and one that has not been answered and I ask it on behalf of all Wested owners over the year who beleive that they have the real McCoy.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:38 am

How about answering the question about the original patterns and the need to copy other jackets when those jackets have been disputed as being copies of actual hero jackets in the first place?

And how about answering the simple question of what hide the original jackets were made from? Were they made from a shrunken hide (some of them or all of them?) and what was that leather being called?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:43 am

Not Shrunken lamb here:

OR HERE:

Still not here:

I don't see the scales anywhere neutron !

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:47 am

Raider S wrote:How about answering the question about the original patterns and the need to copy other jackets when those jackets have been disputed as being copies of actual hero jackets in the first place?

And how about answering the simple question of what hide the original jackets were made from? Were they made from a shrunken hide (some of them or all of them?) and what was that leather being called?

ONCE MORE there is no proof that its the hero ( _ saying so DOES not make it true !, actually there is more proof that it is not an actual hero jacket TN had in hand!

Second of, you say that but Tony Nowak copies about every other jacket out there? I mean T 3 was an existing pattern, indy 4 was copied all the other indy replicas !

PETER · Post by **PETER** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:48 am

I am not saying anything about the TN jacket only the skin I have which is known as crispe and as the skin
is 8.2 square foot in size is hardly shrunken.
I am also saying that the films jackets were made from aust/nz sheep purchased by me from Hume and Thompson in Scotland in wet blue raw state and sent to Turn Leather in Tormorden where they were contract tanned into brown with a light dressing pegged out to dry naturally. The skins were then dry drummed to rough them up a bit before pressing.
That is fact and well documented.
Unfortunately with modern machinery and technology the effect is difficult to repeat and apart from people like COW members there is no real call for this type of skin and I no longer buy wet blue or pickled skins for contract tanning.

Post by **Dalexs** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:53 am

THAT'S ENOUGH.

I've read more then enough digs on this thread to lock it down and kick at least 5 members off the forum for a week or two.

I've got way better things to do this long weekend then babysit a bunch of bickering children.

Dalexs