The "Turn" - Is it a Raiders Standard?

VP · Post by VP » Sun May 17, 2009 11:20 am

Dutch_jones wrote:
You mean that one?

enigmata_wood · Post by **enigmata_wood** » Sun May 17, 2009 11:47 am

I was a big Indy fan in the 80's and I have always worn broad brimmed-hats, but after Crystal Skull was released I got back into Indy - and - as I needed a new hat I went for the Akubra Fed IV.
Though I creased it Raiders style it was without the turn because well, frankly, the turn is a theatrical pretence and it makes the hat less comfortable. It's a costumers' trick to add 'instant character'. For some reason I cannot exactly explain it also offends my artists' sense of symmetry. I'd rather My hat got My character in its own good time.
Actually nothing I own that is Indy inspired is actually SA nor would I want it that way. I dont really want to BE Indy, but I do like the general look.
This in now way denegrates those who want the exact SA look. Indy, like all heroes, inspires on many levels.

mcmanm · Post by **mcmanm** » Sun May 17, 2009 12:45 pm

Maybe i'm in the minority, but I really don't care for the SOC. In my opinion, it has too much turn. I think the perfect Raiders hat is the Raven Bar scene(s). Not too much turn (ribbon sits closer to the ear), yet has that great looking swope in the brim that gives it the Indy flare.

mcmanm · Post by **mcmanm** » Sun May 17, 2009 10:43 pm

This is what I was talking about. This is what I sent Oak to make my Raiders on his new block

mcmanm · Post by **mcmanm** » Sun May 17, 2009 10:46 pm

Great shot of the swope.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sun May 17, 2009 10:59 pm

mcmanm wrote:

This is what I was talking about. This is what I sent Oak to make my Raiders on his new block

I think both hats are turned about the same ( both the raven bar and the SOC). I think maybe a couple more things are going on with the SOC hat. The back non bow side is flipped down. The hat may be a tighter fit and the front of the brim break looks like its been iron flat.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon May 18, 2009 5:19 am

So the unturned Hawaii hat looks wonderfull from the front. It's not tapered- no one likes taper.. Here's what it looks like from the side. TA-PERED!

That Hawaii hat has a more tapered block than the main Raiders hat as far as I can tell. ----- Here's another glimpse of the real thing's roomey backtilted crown.

The main Raiders hat is unturned in the Bantu Wind dock scenes, and it has side taper. Even though it's a 360 stovepipe, in my opinion, it needs to be turned to get rid of it's side taper.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon May 18, 2009 9:22 am

Wouldn't that prove that the block wasn't a 360 block but rather has some tapper and the turn makes for a non tapper hat all way around the hat.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Mon May 18, 2009 9:59 am

I don't buy into the theory that the Hawaii hat is made on a different block. I don't buy into the 360 block either. The Hawaii hat is blocked on the same block as all the other Raiders hats. Look at the arc on the Hawaii hat when looking at its profile. Notice how straight it is? It almost isn't an arc at all. Thats becuase the center dent wasn't dropped as far in the back there as it was in the rest of the film. Take any hat you have and raise the back of the top crease and see what happens. The hat will appear tapered in the back, becuase the block HAS front and back taper. Dropping the back of the hat down further will make the hat appear to be straight or even have reverse taper. If a hat has taper then it wasn't blocked on a 360 stove pipe. Don't care how you spin it. It just doesn't make sense.

Dave

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon May 18, 2009 11:08 am

All of my Raider hats get a turn, unless othewise requested. So, the guy who does not want it done, please email me with the email header reading, "don't turn my hat".

With that said, I only turn just enough to get a brim warp. And that generally involves only a half an inch turn, which is not enough to destroy the symetrical shape of the hat block. If you go more than that, you do get an asymetrical hat though. And each head shape requires more, or less of the turn to get the brim warp. Remember, you are after the warped brim, more so than an asymetrical crown. Harrison's head shape requires just a little turn to get the brim warp. If your head is a round oval, you can turn it til the cows come home and the brim will never warp correctly. Gotta have the right shaped head to begin with. Fedora

mcmanm · Post by **mcmanm** » Mon May 18, 2009 3:28 pm

Oak,

Good thing I'm a long oval.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Mon May 18, 2009 7:09 pm

BendingOak wrote:Wouldn't that prove that the block wasn't a 360 block but rather has some tapper and the turn makes for a non tapper hat all way around the hat.

Put an open crowned 360 stovepipe on your head (a head with about the same oval as the hat), and you won't have taper in the sides or front. Put a top bash in, and the sides will pull in and you'll have side taper, and reverse taper front and back. Without the turn it would stay that way. Front bashes would help, but you'd still have more side taper and more reverse front and back taper than the main Raiders hat.

DR Ulloa wrote:I don't buy into the theory that the Hawaii hat is made on a different block. I don't buy into the 360 block either. The Hawaii hat is blocked on the same block as all the other Raiders hats. Look at the arc on the Hawaii hat when looking at its profile. Notice how straight it is? It almost isn't an arc at all. Thats becuase the center dent wasn't dropped as far in the back there as it was in the rest of the film. Take any hat you have and raise the back of the top crease and see what happens. The hat will appear tapered in the back, becuase the block HAS front and back taper. Dropping the back of the hat down further will make the hat appear to be straight or even have reverse taper. If a hat has taper then it wasn't blocked on a 360 stove pipe. Don't care how you spin it. It just doesn't make sense.

Dave

This is true, but bashing deeper wouldn't make as extreme a differecnce as there is. I can get that Hawaii hat with a standard Fed 4, but I couldn't get the typical Raiders look. Too much taper in the block.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon May 18, 2009 8:12 pm

If you look at the 2 pics post a couple of post up. You can clearly see that the center crease is not as low as the one in the second pic. David is on the right track.

As for the 360. I have been down that street already and it doesn't work for me or any hats I worked on using that idea. The hat tends to come out like someone blew the hat up like a balloon.

Alathea_Squared · Post by **Alathea_Squared** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:31 pm

Is it difficult to 'un-turn' a hat if it hasn't set in yet? I'm still deciding if I want the turn in my Henry, or if I should try to reshape it on my own. It's a new hat, so I wouldn't think it would be too difficult, right?

This thread has been very informational, thank you.

CAS

Indiana Bugs · Post by **Indiana Bugs** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:31 pm

I like everything about the Raiders hats, including the turn.

I love the tight pinch and the brim swoop in all its forms on Ford's head, but . . .

I've seen a lot of photos of turned hats on heads other than Ford's, and I gotta tell ya, imho, its a @#$% shoot. The brims of many of these hats dominate the hat, and the head theyre on, instead of looking more harmonious with the hat and head. Thats one reason Im not in a rush to get a hat made from a felt closer to Indy's than my Fed.

As others have said, it depends on so many factors how a hat looks on any given person's head. And professionals, as well as Ford himself, spent a lot of time making a hat, or hats, look a certain way for any given shot in the movie.

Do I really want to be playing around with my hats, constantly fiddling with them so they look just so on my head? Absolutely not.

I bought a Fed because I wanted a hat that was rugged, and would hold its shape, once I gave it one. I experimented with various degrees of turn, and think they look contrived. Over time, though, my brim has developed its own character. Its no longer one smooth swoop, but has a series of subtle edges in it that give it its own character, and I like it that way. My hats are set up to be symmetrical, and then develop character naturally.

RaidersBash · Post by **RaidersBash** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:00 pm

Indiana G wrote:i've been putting the turn in most the hats that i build..........once its in there, i find myself continually playing with the brim and smushing my hat......to the point that it looks like i'm ignoring people during converstaions!!!!

that dang turn just brings out the worst of my OC complex. my latest hat is a non-turned waterfall raiders....i rarely play with it and i like the way the brim sits on my noggin.

i guess it's part of 'maturing' as a gearhead....at least for me.....to have a straight on hat.

....of course i'm not saying that i'll never build another turned hat

I could not agree more. The turn is such a fine nuance that I never have it where it looks quite right and I'm ALWAYS tweaking it. Give me a non-turned lid and it looks fine and is rarely given a second thought.

I think a lot of it might have to do with what they put the movie hat through. If what D.N. says is even half accurate, I don't know anyone who's put their hats through that kind of abuse except FedoRaiders...but he's crazy with that stuff, folding it into his pockets and jumping in swimming pools...but look at how good and SOC accurate they are.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:35 pm

I would never have a Raiders hat without a turn. Thats just me. it makes the hat. My own personal Raiders hat I put the turn in and thats all I ever done with it. I still think if the hat is soft enough you don't need any tweaking at all. If I put my hat on a table flat the brim almost looks like it has no flange to it ( it's flat). When I pick it up it has the turn perfect and I don't mess with it at all. Now I bashed that hat myself but if I go and bash a hat for a customer I can't get the turn spot on all the time because everyones head is slightly different. If I had every customer in front of me I could get. Thats why I always suggest to customers to get their hats open crown and bash their own hat.

RaidersBash · Post by **RaidersBash** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:41 pm

BendingOak wrote:I would never have a Raiders hat without a turn. Thats just me. it makes the hat. My own personal Raiders hat I put the turn in and thats all I ever done with it. I still think if the hat is soft enough you don't need any tweaking at all. If I put my hat on a table flat the brim almost looks like it has no flange to it ( it's flat). When I pick it up it has the turn perfect and I don't mess with it at all. Now I bashed that hat myself but if I go and bash a hat for a customer I can't get the turn spot on all the time because everyones head is slightly different. If I had every customer in front of me I could get. Thats why I always suggest to customers to get their hats open crown and bash their own hat.

Well John, from all the offerings I've seen yours is at the top of my list, and I WILL certainly put a turn in once I can afford to get one. I agree with what you wrote earlier...it just isn't THE hat without one.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:44 pm

I will see squidkidd this this week some time. i'll get him to take a video of what I'm talking about. I'll post it right here.

mcmanm · Post by **mcmanm** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:28 am

A new video!!! That's what I am talking about.

Matt

Alathea_Squared · Post by **Alathea_Squared** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:11 am

i think I have it, now I just have to stop messing with it because i popped out the bash, and put it back to practice but when I mess with it I end up with the center dent not being even. Frustrating to wear and see that one side is a little higher than the other!

Indiana Blooze · Post by **Indiana Blooze** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:13 am

A Raider's Fedora without a turn, would be like Indiana Jones without Marion Ravenwood.

Alathea_Squared · Post by **Alathea_Squared** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:27 am

Well....technically......for the middle two installments......

*lol*

Im glad they got back together. Elsa was a tool, and Willie was annoying. Marion was awesome.

Garzo · Post by **Garzo** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:59 am

When I ordered my AB Deluxe a couple of years ago, Marc asked if I wanted the turn or not. At the time I wasn't too familiar with the whole Indy hat lore and I didn't like the idea of twisting a new hat like that so I did without it.

I understand why some folks really want the screen accurate look, but some times it does leave me scratching my head -- like giving a brand new hat the Streets of Cairo look. Seeing how the hat looks on screen, you might as well throw the new AB on the street and run over it with your car a few times, then go swimming with it on before having your dog chew on it.

Indiana Bugs · Post by **Indiana Bugs** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:06 pm

That about sums it up. I cant bring myself to do any of that 'distressing.' I like my stuff to age naturally.

generalFROSTY · Post by **generalFROSTY** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:34 am

That's whats fun about this hobby - it's YOUR hat, and no one can tell you what to do with it. Some of us will insist on it looking exactly like it does on screen, and others will want 'thier' hat.
Now, IMHO, I really think fedoraiders takes it to the extreme - so much so that his hat looks less like a fedora a more like a dirty old bucket hat.
Is it wrong to have a raiders hat without the turn? Absolutely not. Even if the turn was in the waterfall scene, YOU decide how YOUR hat looks.
Besides, there are morons out there that think the Dorfman hat is 'the' Indy hat...who the heck is going to notice the absence of the turn.
In a related story...I tried to put the turn on my lego Indy figure. It looks like @#$%.

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:20 am

Do you guys think that THIS hat is turned?

DHW

Cause I couldn't make the brim on my HJ look like that until I turned it. ( I know it's not quite right, but still, I was doing my best . . . )

We know that THIS hat is turned:

And my hat looks to have the same turn in it here.

I bring it up because the first pic is from the Hawaii shoot, unless I'm horribly mistaken. I've always thought the Hawaii hat was turned, but perhaps just not as drastically as the SOC.

DHW

generalFROSTY · Post by **generalFROSTY** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:11 pm

I think the biggest indication that the hat was turned is the placement of the bow. Sometimes, depending on the camera angle, you may not be able to pick up the turn but if there is a turn, the bow should be closer to the eyebrow rather than above the ear.

Local Land Surveyor · Post by **Local Land Surveyor** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:45 pm

This pic shows the difference in the amount of "turn" involved with the hats. I too believe that the same block was used for both hats.

I like the exterior temple version of the hat. It is the underdog of the hats. There is evidence of taper on the back of the block. It is slight, but there. The back of the hat is 4" from the brim, versus the turned hat being about 3-1/2". The turn eases out the taper.
On my hats, I label the Standard Raiders as having the turn. The exterior temple hat bash would not have the extreme turn. Both equally nice hats. If some one would ask for a non- turned hat, but not the exterior temple bash, I would suggest these styles to stay with the Raiders theme:

These hat styles are not the boxy version you see in the exterior temple hat. The backs are dropped a little lower and the front bashes are pushed farther to the sides at the top of the crown.

LLS

generalFROSTY · Post by **generalFROSTY** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:55 pm

Even Mickey knows its the turn that makes a good Raiders hat:
http://www.theraider.net/news/fullstory ... hp?id=1167
Hey, at least the thing looks pretty SA!!

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:46 am

I ordered my AB Deluxe to be a Raiders style with no turn. For me, I am taking what I like about that hat; which is the colour, the deep top crease and the sharp front pinch, and the slightly wider brim than the traditional fedora.

To me if I went with the turn then the hat would simply become a copy of nearly 30 year old movie hat. I want a hat that I like... which happens to be very similiar to a movie hat but still retains my personal preference.

Garzo · Post by **Garzo** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:59 am

jnicktem wrote:I ordered my AB Deluxe to be a Raiders style with no turn. For me, I am taking what I like about that hat; which is the colour, the deep top crease and the sharp front pinch, and the slightly wider brim than the traditional fedora.

To me if I went with the turn then the hat would simply become a copy of nearly 30 year old movie hat. I want a hat that I like... which happens to be very similiar to a movie hat but still retains my personal preference.

Yep, same here.

generalFROSTY · Post by **generalFROSTY** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:57 am

A Raiders hat without the turn is like symetrical Vader helmet.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:24 am

The turn usually turns a droopy brim into a "SMILEY" brim. You could say turnig a hat makes the brim "smile". A smiley brim is a happy looking brim/hat.

IndianaSean · Post by **IndianaSean** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:46 pm

Indiana G wrote:the waterfall hat in the pic above is as much of a raiders hat as any other hat in the movie imo. do we see the waterfall hat much in the movie? no. but that's one of the most popular pictures from raiders........i bet alot more of the earth's populace have seen this picture as compared to the demographic that knows the nuances of the turned hat

I agree. Turn or no turn. It's all SA. However the opening waterfall scene is classic. After he uses his whip to knock the pistol and emerges from the shadows you see it! An unturned hat!! And a serious iconic mark on the psyche!

Turn or no turn...it's all good!

Sean

RaidersBash · Post by **RaidersBash** » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:53 pm

generalFROSTY wrote:Even Mickey knows its the turn that makes a good Raiders hat:
http://www.theraider.net/news/fullstory ... hp?id=1167
Hey, at least the thing looks pretty SA!!

And that jacket looks like TundraRiders!!!!

generalFROSTY · Post by **generalFROSTY** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:15 am

I got my Henry and spent a good while on the phone with John, emailing pics to him to nail the turn just right.
After bashing and wearing the hat for a few hours, I realized that my head is too oval shaped for the turn to look good on me - the brim looks way too wide on my head because the hat had to be turned so much for it to look SA.
So, I unbashed it, then redid it Raiders style without the turn and I am much happier with how it looks - it suits me personally better. Perhaps a custom made hat would look better with the turn.
I will post my full review of my Henry in another thread. I wanted to take pictures outdoors today but its rainy and muggy out

Digger4Glory · Post by **Digger4Glory** » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:07 pm

I think anytime you get that first impression moment of someone or in this case a character, that is a strong imprint of who you think they are right away. So in that opening seen when we first see Indy, we remember the hat with no turn, and it does look great. With that said, this particular character's look has many layers. I think a turned hat which we mostly see in the rest of the film is key to the depth of the character's look even though it's a hollywood trick for that "instant character" look. The Raider's turn since it appears in most of the film, is the look they wanted. The percentage rules. It's kind of like having a tall glass of water with a lemon slice floating on top. Your not drinking lemonade here. Your drinking water, with a lemon in it. I do love both looks though and it is a personal preference to the wearer. There simply is only one solution to this debate. Buy two hats and get both styles! $\:D/$

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:17 am

I think the turn is what defines the Raiders fedora that most here love. Without it, it really doesn't look right.

But Johnny whipcrack, please email me your order info. Yours slipped through the cracks. I am past Oct orders, and if you have not gotten your hat, I need to make it now. Fedora

Post by **Holt** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:33 am

Fedora wrote:I think the turn is what defines the Raiders fedora that most here love. Without it, it really doesn't look right.

couldnt said it better myself

generalFROSTY · Post by **generalFROSTY** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:19 pm

Digger4Glory wrote:I think anytime you get that first impression moment of someone or in this case a character, that is a strong imprint of who you think they are right away. So in that opening seen when we first see Indy, we remember the hat with no turn, and it does look great. With that said, this particular character's look has many layers. I think a turned hat which we mostly see in the rest of the film is key to the depth of the character's look even though it's a hollywood trick for that "instant character" look. The Raider's turn since it appears in most of the film, is the look they wanted. The percentage rules. It's kind of like having a tall glass of water with a lemon slice floating on top. Your not drinking lemonade here. Your drinking water, with a lemon in it. I do love both looks though and it is a personal preference to the wearer. There simply is only one solution to this debate. Buy two hats and get both styles! $\:D/$

This is why collecting Indy fedoras breaks the bank.
There are indeed enough styles to keep your wallet busy. I really like the way my non-turn Raiders looks - though since I combinded the 'cowboy curl' elements from LC, it's really a Hybrid. I think it suits me best. As with any hat, it really is all about personal preference. If you are trying to go with complete SA, then the turn is essential. In my case, the hat had to be turned so much that I felt uncomfortable with how it looked - and the last thing ANYONE wants with a hat is to not feel comfortable in how they look in it.

Digger4Glory · Post by **Digger4Glory** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:59 am

Your right generalFROSTY! We all pretty much agree the turn in the Raiders hat is the way it should be if your going for that SA look. This is however the base target look and until it actually sits on one's head, you never know how your going to like that look on you. You really need to tweak it to suit you, as with any hat even a ball cap. The bashing videos that people like John have put up are really helpful.

A hat is probably one of the most personal things you can wear. It makes such a statement about the wearer. It actually can show your mood if you will, and underlying attitude and make-up of who you are. Which is why we are all fasinated with this particular

hat's look.

generalFROSTY · Post by **generalFROSTY** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:26 pm

Yeah, for me - the turn did not suit me - as much as I wanted a true 'Raiders' style, it just did not look right on my head - too much turn had to be done and the hat was so lopsided because of it, it look unnatural and I felt uncomfortable wearing it.
Here's what I came up with - Raiders pinch, LC curl:

Digger4Glory · Post by **Digger4Glory** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:29 pm

generalFROSTY wrote:Yeah, for me - the turn did not suit me - as much as I wanted a true 'Raiders' style, it just did not look right on my head - too much turn had to be done and the hat was so lopsided because of it, it look unnatural and I felt uncomfortable wearing it.
Here's what I came up with - Raiders pinch, LC curl:

Looks good!

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:37 pm

Okay- now I have a dilemma! I just saw this GREAT picture of someone else wearing an AB- and I love the look of this AB! It has the Raiders turn... and originally I didn't want the turn. Now I don't know which to choose!

Check it out:

Digger4Glory · Post by **Digger4Glory** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:44 pm

jnicktem wrote:Okay- now I have a dilemma! I just saw this GREAT picture of someone else wearing an AB- and I love the look of this AB! It has the Raiders turn... and originally I didn't want the turn. Now I don't know which to choose!

Check it out:

Is that beaver or rabbit?

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:50 pm

Beaver.

Digger4Glory · Post by **Digger4Glory** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:53 pm

jnicktem wrote:Beaver.

That's what I thought and it really looks awesome. Everytime, I see a hat that I love my wheels start turning and somehow my wallet gets thinner!

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:55 pm

I know! I think it looks amazing! So now I don't know what my AB Deluxe should be... it will have a Raiders pinch... but now I don't know if I want the turn or not.

Digger4Glory · Post by **Digger4Glory** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:00 pm

I know exactly what you mean. I too have an AB Deluxe on order and was thinking the same thing. I will probably go with the turn. Then I will start thinking of the Raiders seaplane and another.... and another...

I'm turning into a hat junky!