Raider's Collar

[Dutch_jones]

Holt I'm not suggesting you're blind , just suggesting that perhaps this particular jacket wasn't the jacket without pleats or with mock pleats (and more to the point, that this has a low yoke like Bantu wind). It's possible that the Wilson's jacket was used in another shot and not this particular one.

Even your photo is titled MTTTruckDrag15677

That's a screen capture I made and named, so don't read too much into that.

- Mac

maybe the wilsons was the jacket used in the swim scene;) that jacket looks off on the count it does not seem to have a backpannel, can't tell the pleats but that is definatley a cloth jacket, leather does not react that way to water.

On second thought :O this does look like leather

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3430/335 ... 5fc8_b.jpg

[RCSignals]

It doesn't say anything about a mock action pleat, but these are the two photos:



In the first photo it looks very much like a functioning action pleat, but certainly it could be a mock pleat.

- Mac

It looks much more like a flat mock pleat to me. It just doesn't look like a functioning pleat, and as I said, I'm sure _ has commented about it before because of this very line of discussion.

This about the pleat of that jacket is off topic though.

[Holt]

right

but lets not take this topic down hill to the 'non' action pleats again....... there are many other threads that have this as a topic...

lets try to stay more on topic. its an interresting topic to follow....

of course if there is said a word or five about pockets or pleats then thats fine by me.. but lets not make this onto something else then what it is...

thats all...


carry on my friends.

[Dutch_jones]

This is the raiders jacket/ collar as I remember it I havent seen anything like this one yet:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3593/333 ... c664_b.jpg

[Yojimbo Jones]

another thing that catch my eye is the raiders jacket worn in LC by Vic Armstrong.

the collar and details look almost spot on to the Hawaii jacket.

I reiterate my statement from above:
And notice how in both [the idol grab and "Marion"/wing thread p1] shots there is still the zipper sweep as seen in the Hawaii jacket of TN. The quirks of the pattern don't seem too different from one to another, apart from the collar stand and pockets, which would have more to do with who's operating the sewing machine and not so much on the off-kilterness of the pattern.

IMPORTANT PIECE OF THE PUZZLE:
...The same thing is going on here. Either the Hawaii jacket is Vic's (which we know he kept through all 3 productions he was on) and Tony's using VIC'S JACKET with Lucas' blessing, OR the post prototype batch were indeed ALL VERY SIMILAR. It can only be one or the other.

[RCSignals]

Doesn't Vic live in England?

I suspect this is more like it:

the post prototype batch were indeed ALL VERY SIMILAR.

but think there is always room for more than either or

It can only be one or the other.

We really don't know enough

[Dutch_jones]

Vic had one main jacket in all three movies He used the same stuff he wore in raiders in the other two movies, a friend of mine asked it recentley at a convention. Vic does live in the UK but the theory is very possible, why lucas's blessing? Maybe Lucas doesn't know anything about it.

[Yojimbo Jones]

I don't know, but chances are he could have been in L.A. for the shooting of Mummy3 about CS time. Whether eh takes his jackets everywhere is another issue...

[Kt Templar]

Zipper sweep? The way it shows the liner? Mine does that.

What's your point?

[RCSignals]

Vic had one main jacket in all three movies. Vic does live in the UK but the theory is very possible, why lucas's blessing? Maybe Lucas doesn't know anything about it.

What we know is TN has good reason to believe the jacket he copied is the jacket worn by HF in teh Hawaii scene.

This does not mean it wasn't the jacket of Vic, but given that it has also been said that HF stated he only wore one jacket in Hawaii it may not be Vic's, but another jacket assigned to Ford.

We also know it has been stated that Ford switched jackets with stutmen (possibly mostly Vic as he was more of a double)

It's still all speculation, but I can't really see Vic's jacket being sent from the UK to TN..

[Dutch_jones]

The pocket flap on vics jacket is totally different though, much smaller.

[Yojimbo Jones]

RC, based on everything I've absorbed over the last few months, I would lean towards that they're all similar to that degree, but Vic as source can't be ruled out unless another piece of the puzzle contradicts it.

Dutch, I think it's unlikely in the extreme that Tony could be doing this without SOMEONE at LFL knowing. Having said that, again, I don't think Tony's source IS Vic, but just something we can't rule out 100%...yet.

[RCSignals]

I agree Mr Yojimbo it can't be ruled out, I think it is unlikely though.

[Kt Templar]

See how the collar looks rounded on the left and pointy on the right... optical illusion.

[Yojimbo Jones]

Zipper sweep? The way it shows the liner? Mine does that. What's your point?

I can't discount that some Westeds do that, but mine doesn't, and I've seen MANY that don't. The Nowak jackets were the first to do this with consistency. (With Tony specifically pointing it out as a design flaw if I recall)

My point is its a design flaw that's consistent across multiple production jackets, pointing to it being a possible pattern issue rather than dodgy sewing. (Unless its VERY consistently dodgy!)

[Yojimbo Jones]

See how the collar looks rounded on the left and pointy on the right... optical illusion.

agreed.

[RCSignals]

Zipper sweep? The way it shows the liner? Mine does that. What's your point?

I can't discount that some Westeds do that, but mine doesn't, and I've seen MANY that don't. The Nowak jackets were the first to do this with consistency. (With Tony specifically pointing it out as a design flaw if I recall)

My point is its a design flaw that's consistent across multiple production jackets, pointing to it being a possible pattern issue rather than dodgy sewing. (Unless its VERY consistently dodgy!)

Don't you mean the 'curl'? I don't see Kt's jacket doing that. folding back and exposing he lining yes.
TN explained it, as being the zipper sewn in improperly, and as I recall the zipper actually being slightly too long for the space it's sewn into, which causes it to curl and be wavy. So the zipper is under a sort of compression but is 'fighting' that pressure with resulting curl.

[Heyjude7]

this threadd has derailed big time

[RCSignals]

See how the collar looks rounded on the left and pointy on the right... optical illusion.

Yes definitely an illusion.

As C-j stated though there is a photo which fairly clearly shows a jacket that has two different collar ends, neither being 'pointed' from illusion. Hopefully he'll find it.

[Kt Templar]

Zipper sweep? The way it shows the liner? Mine does that. What's your point?

I can't discount that some Westeds do that, but mine doesn't, and I've seen MANY that don't. The Nowak jackets were the first to do this with consistency. (With Tony specifically pointing it out as a design flaw if I recall)

My point is its a design flaw that's consistent across multiple production jackets, pointing to it being a possible pattern issue rather than dodgy sewing. (Unless its VERY consistently dodgy!)

Don't you mean the 'curl'? I don't see Kt's jacket doing that. folding back and exposing he lining yes.
TN explained it, as being the zipper sewn in improperly, and as I recall the zipper actually being slightly too long for the space it's sewn into, which causes it to curl and be wavy. So the zipper is under a sort of compression but is 'fighting' that pressure with resulting curl.

Curl? Knock yourself out.

[Yojimbo Jones]

Don't you mean the 'curl'? I don't see Kt's jacket doing that. folding back and exposing he lining yes.
TN explained it, as being the zipper sewn in improperly, and as I recall the zipper actually being slightly too long for the space it's sewn into, which causes it to curl and be wavy. So the zipper is under a sort of compression but is 'fighting' that pressure with resulting curl.

Curl, yeah, that's it. Couldn't remember the term used. I do think "sweep" sounds more elegant, though!

But ok, fair call. SO either multiple jackets had zippers that were too long or...? hmmm..

[Baldwyn]

Don't you mean the 'curl'? I don't see Kt's jacket doing that. folding back and exposing he lining yes.
TN explained it, as being the zipper sewn in improperly, and as I recall the zipper actually being slightly too long for the space it's sewn into, which causes it to curl and be wavy. So the zipper is under a sort of compression but is 'fighting' that pressure with resulting curl.

Curl, yeah, that's it. Couldn't remember the term used. I do think "sweep" sounds more elegant, though!

But ok, fair call. SO either multiple jackets had zippers that were too long or...? hmmm..

I thought the proper term was "demon roll"

The zipper doesn't necessarily have to be sewn in improperly. My theory is that the jackets shrunk during distressing, but it's just a theory.

[RCSignals]

Don't you mean the 'curl'? I don't see Kt's jacket doing that. folding back and exposing he lining yes.
TN explained it, as being the zipper sewn in improperly, and as I recall the zipper actually being slightly too long for the space it's sewn into, which causes it to curl and be wavy. So the zipper is under a sort of compression but is 'fighting' that pressure with resulting curl.

Curl, yeah, that's it. Couldn't remember the term used. I do think "sweep" sounds more elegant, though!

But ok, fair call. SO either multiple jackets had zippers that were too long or...? hmmm..

I've seen it called different things. Curls sweep swoop 'demon roll' All the same thing.

The zipper is definitely not 'relaxed' in position as they normally are.

[RCSignals]

Curl? Knock yourself out.

It's trying to, on a hanger it almost makes it.

[crismans]

My HH Wested did have the zipper curl (another reason I hated to see it go) but I think this was mainly due to the leather. I've not seen this consistently on many Westeds.

[Holt]

ok. back on track guys.

were are talking about the collar. not zippers. not pleats. not pockets....collar.

[Holt]

See how the collar looks rounded on the left and pointy on the right... optical illusion.

]

yours might be an optical illusion, but the 'hero' jacket had the mistakes on the collar.

one pointy end and one round end.


look.

[Han Jones]

That top picture collar looks like a G&B collar. I have noticed that my G&B collar is smaller and rounded and my TN is larger and pointed.

[Mac]

See how the collar looks rounded on the left and pointy on the right... optical illusion.

]

yours might be an optical illusion, but the 'hero' jacket had the mistakes on the collar.

one pointy end and one round end.


look.

Holt, I must disagree with you my friend, at least on those two photos.

Here is a the same shot as your first (color) photo, only a split second later:


Notice the round tip on the left collar.

Here is a side by side comparison showing the left half of my photo and the right half of yours:


They look very similar to me.

Regarding the B&W photo, here is a series of photos, all from the same shot, where Indy simply turns to the side. The sequence is in reverse order, compared to the film, to show the “pointy” collar tip first. The collar tip is pointy in the first photo (optical illusion) and round in the other two:





Those are from the Raven bar scene where Marion slugs Indy and they comprise a single shot with no cuts. Notice the similar collar in the first photo of the sequence to the B&W photo you posted.

The pointy collar is an optical illusion, partly due to the “arch” of the left collar. Yojimbo’s TN jacket replicates it pretty well.

- Mac

[Dutch_jones]

You know, Coopers made all the jackets for all movies

[Dutch_jones]

Yes indeed it simulates the look but not the fact, but thats alright ! STILL SA


THIS collar with a fold would give the same effect,

[Mac]

As extremely painful as this is for me, I think you make an excellent point here.

- Mac

[Dutch_jones]

Is Yojimbo's one sharp and one rounded collar, or both rounded and also the crease/fold put in, I can't tell for sure.

[RCSignals]

You know, Coopers made all the jackets for all movies

Thank you Dutch. Everything makes sense now.

[Dutch_jones]

You know, Coopers made all the jackets for all movies

Thank you Dutch. Everything makes sense now.

Sorry, but its kinda silly don't we know for a fact thats the jacket DN had?

[Dutch_jones]

What are you talking about? Who's DN? Dutches Neighbor?

debra nadoolman

[Dutch_jones]

Yes if you're saying the jacket stood in for the blue label was a coopers but its really clear that its a jacket made by Leather concessionaires/wested leather.

And the reason I think this is that I used to have a wested that looked just like that:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/ ... 1241031967

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/ ... 1241032009

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/ ... ear021.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/ ... ear028.jpg
The texture even seems to be same.
just look at the long straps they are also on the SGT hack jacket.

[RCSignals]

Yes if you're saying the jacket stood in for the blue label was a coopers but its really clear that its a jacket made by Leather concessionaires/wested leather.

what is clear?

[Dutch_jones]

nevermind, I posted pictures of a nearly identical jacket, just think what you think;)

i'll do the same;)

[Holt]

I have what?

Did I say that the production raiders jacket Sgt Hack has is cooper made? when did I say that?

[Mac]

But where is it that the Bantu wind jacket is absolutely as a fact the jacket Deborah distressed by the pool. I don't think it is anymore.

From Costume Design by Deborah Nadoolman Landis (page 75):

“Then, using Harrison Ford’s Swiss Army knife, a steel brush, and many sheets of sandpaper, I destroyed my hands by aging Indiana’s first leather jacket myself (of the ten jackets we manufactured), poolside at La Rochelle, the day before our first day of shooting at the U Boat dock. When Ford arrived on the set, it looked as if he had been wearing that jacket for 20 years.”

Peter has said previously that he met with Nadoolman (or Kelly Kimball) on a Saturday and stated that she would take ten jackets if he could make them and have them all in France on Tuesday. The first day of shooting was Monday, June 23, 1980, in La Rochelle France.

It’s possible that Nadoolman had only a prototype jacket in her possession on the first day of shooting (Monday) and that the others didn’t arrive until the next day.

But there’s also this from TheRaider.net’s account of Raiders production:

“The first day the production team arrived it was raining and the Atlantic seemed uninvited. It was impossible to film anything. Same happened the second day. The third day the sea had calmed down and they managed to shoot through all day.”

The dockside scene may not have been shot until after the Leather Concessionaires jackets arrived. The Bantu wind jacket may, or may not, be a pre Leather Concessionaires prototype.

- Mac

[Holt]

well. I have never said that the production raiders jacket in Davids possesion is a coopers...

I believe it is an leather concess. jacket

[RCSignals]

I don't see how we can say with any certainty that the jacket Wings has is a Cooper or a Leather Concessionaires.
I do think though that there is a good possibility that it is a Cooper submission for Raiders. It seems confirmed that Cooper did produce jackets for Raiders, even if just prototypes.

[RCSignals]

Yes if you're saying the jacket stood in for the blue label was a coopers but its really clear that its a jacket made by Leather concessionaires/wested leather.

And the reason I think this is that I used to have a wested that looked just like that:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/ ... 1241031967

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/ ... 1241032009

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/ ... ear021.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/ ... ear028.jpg
The texture even seems to be same.
just look at the long straps they are also on the SGT hack jacket.

Which came first. That Wested or the jacket Sgt Hack has?

[Yojimbo Jones]

Is Yojimbo's one sharp and one rounded collar, or both rounded and also the crease/fold put in, I can't tell for sure.

And THAT is also the point - someone wouldn't know unless they flattened it out on a desk and looked at it. The right angle and lens and I could make the collar pointy or very rounded.

[Holt]

well. I have never said that the production raiders jacket in Davids possesion is a coopers...

I believe it is an leather concess. jacket

No I am simply referring to you drawing comparisons in similarities between the Bantu wind and the wings/hack jackets. I know you think it is a leather conc. But you initially pointed out the similarities. RCSignals brought up the possibility it might be a cooper. I think this could actually be right and would explain a lot.

ahh.. gotcha